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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 1:53:45 AM | On more than one occasion, I have been refered to as a child abuser for influencing my children to follow my beliefs. I have been told that I should never tell my children what to think, but only teach them how to think, so maybe it's time we discussed the idea of early-age Christian indoctrination in detail so we can discover what the rationale behind these statements is.
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My argument:
I am under the impression that we are free to worship, and free to rasie our children within the confines of the law. Be that as it may, there are people who believe that we are promoting a sickness and destroying the minds of our kids with guilt and fantasy. I argue that God is truth, and children, if left to their own devices, will become ill-equiped to handle the world as an adult. I also argue that incomplete guidance at early ages will result in confusion due to a child's sensitivity of self-image.
A scenario: Most parents discourage their children from hitting and being mean. If they do not and the child acheives emotional payoff for these actions, perhaps by taking a toy from another child as an example, a clear and permanent corelation forms
in the mind of that child; violence = payoff
(BTW, this is sustained by every psychologist I've spoken to, but I'll quote a single source that focuses on emotional payoff: Life Strategies by Dr. Phil McGraw)
The question: Can a child form his own superego, or must he depend upon his parents to provide the reward and consequence system?
No doubt some superego elements can form from instinct, but considering the complexity of the human mind and it's relative independance from instinct compared to other species (again proven), we are more creatures of reason and reward. Most of our behavior is learned.
All that being said, I would rather indoctrinate my child into a system I know works, than roll the dice and hope he doesn't learn the wrong lessons. With God's guidance, I will mold him rather than letting him mold himself.
Some aetheists may indeed raise their children in the same way, passing their own morals, but most I've seen (I could be wrong) argue that a child is independant of mind and should be free to explore all possibilities. But if your kid loves chocolate, I just hope he doesn't find the evil chocolate God who says it's ok to take chocolate, because by golly that's the one I would pick! lol
Anyone seen Lord of the Flies? A valuable lesson there. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 4:29:57 AM | I'll go ahead and start by pointing out that to make an analogy two things must be similar enough to infer something about the latter from the former. Comparing religious indoctrination to preventing your child from hitting others is a fallacious analogy. The two things aren't similar enough to infer something about the former from the latter. After all, not hitting is a social norm whereas religions are something totally different.
In any case you can try to indoctrinate your children if you want. And frankly I'm glad that you're admitting it's indoctrination. However, parents actually have less influence on many developmental aspects of children than peers do. Moral development is one of these aspects. In short, you probably have far less control over the indoctrination of your children than you think you do. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 4:55:46 AM | | I think calling it "child abuse" is a bit of an exageration, but I do think it's best to let the child eventually make their own decision. You can help them, let them know what mommy and daddy believe, and if they ask about other religions then you should provide information on them (I'd assume in the form of books since I doubt you're fully versed in every religion your child might ask about). | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 6:13:13 AM | quote] I'll go ahead and start by pointing out that to make an analogy two things must be similar enough to infer something about the latter from the former. Comparing religious indoctrination to preventing your child from hitting others is a fallacious analogy.
Our moral system is the same as our religious system. I argue that if you should guide you children not to hit, you are influencing control over them by establishing morals values they may have otherwise been unable to form on their own. How is this a stretch? It's influence vs. influence. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 6:21:06 AM | I think its natural to teach your kids your morals etc, what i do not agree with is forcing your OPINIONS (cos thats what they are, they arent facts such as the sky is blue etc) on your kids...
Take my example...
I am a spiritualist, my sons father is Jewish and my son went to the local school which happened to be a Catholic one and he decided at 6, after lengthy discussions with us and the Priest that he wanted to be a Catholic..
Consequence being my Jewish ex-partner and I (a practising spiritualist) have a kid who is a practising Catholic!
I dont agree with most Catholic ideas, obviously his dad doesnt, but we respect his views and support his choices. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 7:11:31 AM |
I think its natural to teach your kids your morals etc, what i do not agree with is forcing your OPINIONS (cos thats what they are, they arent facts such as the sky is blue etc) on your kids...
I'm going to assume by your statement (correct if I'm wrong) that your practice has no single Divine Authority. If that is the case, I can understand that it is easy to bleed the word 'opinion' with 'belief'. It's not as easy for us to be so liberal.
To most of us, our belief is based on an irrefutable truth. Please nobody blow this up into "according to you", because yes, I am speaking according to me.
As a personal testament, I KNOW God is there. That creates responsability on my part. Also, I'm not talking about forcible subjugation.
Wilkepedia:
Religious indoctrination refers to customary rites of passage for the indoctrination of persons into a particular religion and its extended community. Most religious groups instruct new members in the principles of the religion; this is usually not referred to as indoctrination, because of the negative connotations the word has acquired.
My children will be baptised. My oldest (the youngest can't even talk yet) openly professes a belief in Jesus Christ. It takes no subjugation, only suggestion. As a parent, I have that influence, so there is no subjugation needed. He believes in God because he trusts me. The baptism and belief are really the only concrete rites of passage that aren't subject to debate. I firmly feel that I will never have to force anything on him. God willing, with my instruction and his own observation, he will accept the truth of Jesus as self-evident.
"What if" Well, I haven't gotten to that yet. My brother is agnostic, and it breaks my mother's heart. She loves him no less. She just prays for him and leaves him in God's hands. It's out of her control now. At some point, my son will be virtually free of my influence, but until then, I will cease not to instruct him. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 7:40:28 AM | I think that any parent has a primary right and responsibility to bring that child up in the way they see fit, subject only the law of their land. I think that the hate-mongers who seek to tell other parents what is right or wrong need to butt out and look after their own affairs. I've also noticed that most of them don't have children.
Yayaotters: it was a fair analogy. that you can't see it because of the blinkers doesn't change that fact. | |
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| Child Indoctrination
Posted: 11/16/2007 7:43:55 AM | Indoctrination, IMO, is when one convinces others that there is only one right way of doing things, and that you are right, and everyone else is wrong.
I consider indoctrination as forcing children to do what is unnatural to them, again and again, until it becomes such an ingrained habit, that they are constantly fighting their own natures, and need therapy to allow them to become functioning members of society.
I think the nature of indoctrination is that it lends itself to many things, and religion has no right to exclusively be indoctrinating. I have met many people who clearly believed in G-d, despite the fact that their parents indoctrinated them to be atheists, as well as people who were indoctrinated by religious parents.
However, it is very difficult to know if you are indoctrinating someone, as most indoctrinators believe that they are not indoctrinating their children at all. Such people often surround themselves with friends who are Yes People, who will agree with them whatever they say, or friends who think like them , and believe that such indoctrination is not indoctrination either.
That is why I like people who disagree with me. It allows me a greater chance of finding out if I am wrong, and if I might start indoctrinating my future children.
I think that education is useful, even if it might only show one side, as long as it acknowledges that other sides might exist, and might be equally correct. Then, it's not indoctrination.
That's my opinion. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 8:08:00 AM | first off let me say that, IMO, anybody that says you are abusing your child(ren) by influencing them to follow your beliefs is about 3 bricks shy of a full load! and although i will be talking from a Christian point of view, before anyone gets a hair up their patoody, just take what i say and apply your own belief, 'cause Lord knows i would never want to infringe on your beliefs  !
as some of you know, i like to use definitions and such, for clarification, understanding, and so nobody thinks i'm just spuing off what i "think" i know/believe!
INDOCTRINATE:
1: to instruct esp. in fundamentals or rudiments~~TEACH. 2: to imbue with a usu. partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle.
the Thesaurus has a few more and even includes "brain wash"! So...
BRAINWASHING:
1: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to "give up" [emphasis added] basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas. 2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. (like what we Christians are said to do, who knows, maybe there needs to be more machines, like the golfball washer, for brains, or planes flying over releasing gospel tracts )
Anywho, IMO, indoctrination is all around us in one way or another, like schools, tv shows, churches, seminars, etc..., and brainwashing is for those that "already" have a learned way of thinking, so it doesn't apply much to children, but if it did, and a child is brought up with Christian teaching, then the brainwashing "in that case" would be coming from outside of said home!
it would seem to me, that, the accusers are just those who don't believe the way you do, they were "indoctrinated" differently than you, so they're trying to "brainwash" you into believing their way, (i guess we Christians aren't the only culprits, hey, this is fun)!
for Christians, the Bible says in Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it". Even non-Christians can see that this is pretty much common sense, get a new job and try to excell with no training and see how far you get, education is necessary for success! As for beliefs, Christians believe differently than non-believers (non-Christians and those that call themselves Christians, but are so in name only, and i won't get into that topic here, so don't even go there, start another thread), that's NOT going to change, but we are supposed to live quiet, peaceable lives, 1Timothy 2:2, ( but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who have a calling to defend the TRUTH)!
a child is going to learn, one way or another, (especially in the early years), and the best place is in the home, and we can all hope that the home is a safe place where there is Love and the children are wanted want to be! yes, a child may stray, but the chances of that are reduced with a proper upbringing and "PROPER" discipline! i strayed from my faith, (daddy didn't beat me enough, "JUST KIDDING"), but by the grace of God, i have returned to my "first Love", no longer the prodigal son, and i know (ok, for those that keep wondering how i "know"), i "believe" that that is because of my learning as a child! keep on keepin' on Altruist80  | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 9:52:20 AM | Yes, guidance and instruction can be good as long as it is not doing harm. The choice is not between Christianity versus chaos, anarchy and evil. There are plenty of non-Christian types of guidance that work great.
Preparation for ideas includes the development of critical thinking, which Christianity outlaws. A person who has not learned to think for themselves is stuck with canned ideas and is unable to deal with life except to flounder towards a crisis of faith, which either leads to a rejection of religion or a rejection of reality. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 10:11:25 AM | When a Christian parent teaches their children about Christ its like teaching them the alphabet. As Christian parents believe with all their heart and soul that Jesus is the only path unto the Father in Heaven, it makes perfect sense that they/we would instruct their children about the Lord.
We love our children just as much as the non believer does and want the best for them. As Christians we consider Christ to be the best, the Way and the Light. If children emmulate their parents and their parents emmulate Christ, woo hoo what a wonderful world this would be !
I taught my child how to look both ways when he crosses the street to protect him and keep him safe. Of course I would teach him about Christ to protect him against evil and eternal separation from God. Makes perfect sense to me.
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 10:20:04 AM | | i just have to ask why you think critical thinking is outlawed in Christianity? i've been accused of being overly critical a few times! I'd be happy to explain on another thread concerning that! i haven't been on here long, so i don't know what all has already been posted and not, but i think that would be off thread here! | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 10:53:03 AM | I think I can answer within the topic. Critical thinking follows to the truth, while Christianity starts with the truth and then fits thinking to suit. Children who are taught that the truth is already stated have no responsibility to look for it themselves, and they enslave their thinking to support the published doctrine. Thoughts that disagree, and for some, that question what is given, are discouraged. Thoughts that echo the given truth are accepted. With critical thinking you have to start where you are and be true to the idea of truth, and then if it leads you to religion, you arrived there with your intellect functioning and not hobbled. In the Jewish tradition of religious instruction, there is an expectation that everything stated will be questioned. To do so, to think for oneself, is a duty. In Christianity children are raised to accept, agree, to not question, to not think for themselves. Everything outside the party line is deemed wrong, bad, etc.
Think of a court of law where you start out by saying whether or not the person is guilty, and then you prove your case, allowing only evidence which supports your argument. But unlike a court of law, there is only one side presented. The verdict is a foregone conclusion, and the trial becomes a ritual for interpreting events so they will fit the verdict. This is what happens in the child's mind when raised within a belief system that assumes a truth and then filters out everything that might conflict with that truth. Where does such a child learn to think? Their thinking consists of translating everything into a Christian view. To a Christian that might be great, but if scientists did that or lawyers or anyone else, there would be no progress, no justice and no real point in thinking itself. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 11:24:21 AM |
Our moral system is the same as our religious system. I argue that if you should guide you children not to hit, you are influencing control over them by establishing morals values they may have otherwise been unable to form on their own. How is this a stretch? It's influence vs. influence.
Your moral system isn't the same as your religion, but it may be partially based on it. The analogy became bad when you were essentially comparing the entire religion to a moral tenant (if we allow that "don't hit" is really a moral proposition, rather than an ethical one). For example, you can argue a moral basis behind "don't hit" that is based in a social contract; we can essentially observe it in society around us. You can't argue any such basis for the belief that God came down to Earth 2000 years ago and sacrificed himself to himself. Analogies have to be pretty specific or they flop over into fallacious territory, "influence vs. influence" or "religion vs. morality" are too broad. You can't necessarily infer something about morality based on religion, as a rule, and you can't necessarily infer something about a particular influence from a separate particular influence, as a rule.
In any case it's all really secondary to my point. My point is that you don't choose the moral values of your children. As a parent, you aren't even the primary influence. Moral development, if it rises from religious belief or not, is determined by peer groups and environment. This is because in the later stages of child development and adolescence children spend more time with peer groups than they do with parents. The majority of a child's active time, as soon as they enter school, is spent among peers and not among parents. Thus they receive more influence in many aspects of development from these peer groups than they do from parents.
This tends to freak a lot of parents out, because traditionally everyone thought that parents were the primary influence in a child's life. Today we know this is only the case in respect to early child development; as soon as a child begins spending a majority of their time outside the house parental influence becomes secondary.
If you're really serious about indoctrinating your child, which I'm not recommending, you should note the implications of this. To do it successfully you'd essentially have to pull your child from school and ensure that you are the dominant influence. This means spending a majority of the child's time directly with the child. You'd probably do good to remove other influences that children interact with such as books, television, and the internet. That's really the only way you could ensure that your values were the dominant influence.
DisturbedAngel wrote:
I am a spiritualist, my sons father is Jewish and my son went to the local school which happened to be a Catholic one and he decided at 6, after lengthy discussions with us and the Priest that he wanted to be a Catholic..
This is a perfect example of the principle I outlined in practice. The child was thrust into an environment with a particular set of values and ended up adopting those values. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 11:53:52 AM | Fret not I say, altruist80, for indeed "To put it plainly, we presently live in the era of Solipsism." And things seem to exist by each one's perception only.
And to many their perception of the bible itself is evil and or bad. You even have those that remind you that the have read the bible front to back and tell you that the bible is bad and or evil or can only harm kids,ALTHOUGH again I say fret not because of these one's that are telling you this,you already know ONE CAN NOT USE JUST THEIR NATURAL FACILITIES TO KNOW THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD..
Yes,there are one's that think their perception exist only. And they will tell you how they look upon the bible and tell you that your choice to share this bible with YOUR kids is wrong to do(and IMO and belief,my kids don't BELONG to me,but instead they are a borrowed gift from God). But the thing is, their perception of what I am sharing with my kids is a lot different than what I believe that am sharing with my kids
To me,what I am sharing with my kids is something that is
More than words on a page
more than just a story..........
A philosophy that makes even the greatest minds with such wonderment,still ponder
A compass for all unmarked paths and broken roads a soul may wander...
A voice of truth never intended to reach just a few
that can never exhaust "in breath"...an ultimate reality a true....
A book from which Shakespeare had quoted from at least five hundred times
Within this book, one will find,
the most beautiful sonnets surpassing all prose and rhymes...
It is a “light to our feet and a lamp to our path”
layered with hope and comfort with no hidden disguise or mask
It is the best poetry ever written,
to me,
should one ask.........
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And to others this same book is one that is the greatest cause of fanatics in history. But altruist80,you and I already know that fanatics in religion does not represent everyone of that said religion. You and I already know about Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong this mass slaughter in which included over 100 million people were murdered done by MAN'S authority. You and I already know that the bible and the Christian beliefs and faith is not the overwhelming cause for our overcrowded prisons that are overflowing with murderers,rapist and these many more crimes against humanity. You and I already know about the many many innocent women and innocent children that are victims of rape,abuse,torture,dead bodies...all this done by the actions of someone doing all this in the name of man's authority and not in the name of Christianity or any other religion for example the My Lai Massacre ,the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed Vietnamese civilians, mostly women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968, in the hamlet of My Lai, during the Vietnam War.
But in the perception of many,what we are doing when we share our beliefs and faith with our kids,to them WE are the one's that are bringing them harm and what we are teaching them which included the moral teachings of Jesus ...it's all wrong to these...I don't know..wait min...a lot of the one's that post in here seem to think Jesus was a cool dude...ah never mind...perception again...and others just picking out the parts they like.
hmmmm...let me finish that sentence with my own exclusivity of truth just like Flemming does when he sates as a fact that there is no God...and for those that have reminded me and others that kids and adults have the choice to ignore it and after all,it's not bashing,I should be okay to do the same thing,right?...I mean,just ignore...and if you can't,then have my whole post deleted if you have a separate standard of accountability that I should follow that is separate than the one you have for cats like Flemming.
Now how does that blasphemy challenge kick off again that opposes Christianity ?...oh yeah, " Through basic observation from the world around me and logical thinking,I've come to the conclusion that;"
God taught the sun where to stand in the morning
God told the ocean you can only come this far
God showed the moon where to hide till evening
God's words alone can catch a falling star
Again altruist80,fret not I say for we live in a world where the spirit has no home and those that embrace that which is spirit to spirit will always be set apart because indeed the world loves their own. And of course my post may indeed be deleted upon request of another for violation of forum rules,(although,up to this point I had always went to great measures to present my posts as belief and opinion)but my post today is a reflection of the exclusivity of truth that is passed to our kids by Flemming and others and their perception only...by when I do the same thing, my perception only demonstrated as an exclusivity of truth ,this may not be as favorable to some,as cat's like Flemming's exclusivity of truth is!!!
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:02:51 PM |
This is a perfect example of the principle I outlined in practice. The child was thrust into an environment with a particular set of values and ended up adopting those values.
Errrrrrrrrrr,excuse me for saying this but that is utter bullsh1t!
He wasnt "thrust" into anything, i actually had a choice between 2 local primary schools... One that is one of the worst schools in the county where i live and the other which is a good school, the religion side of it wasnt an issue for me. It was place my son in an environment where fights happen daily or go to a decent school... Which did i chose i wonder?
The school HAPPENED to be a Roman Catholic one. I allowed my child to make the choices for himself, he chose to do his Holy Communion and has chosen to do his Confirmation. I know nothing much about either of them to be honest, my son has his beliefs and i have mine. I let him make choices, that is about parenting the way i see is best. I do not force him to do anything where religion is concerned.
I have VERY different beliefs to my son. I do not, for example, believe that any sin is forgiven if the person says unlimited hail marys.
I'm going to assume by your statement (correct if I'm wrong) that your practice has no single Divine Authority. If that is the case, I can understand that it is easy to bleed the word 'opinion' with 'belief'. It's not as easy for us to be so liberal.
I am glad i am permitted to correct you as yes, you are indeed very wrong. I believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. I just dont believe that a book written by people who presumed they knew God and Jesus is the way to live my life. I do not believe that a book that tells me on one hand to turn the other cheek and then says an eye for an eye is always consistant and therefore i base my beliefs on my experiences and my feelings. Not by what a book insists i do.
To most of us, our belief is based on an irrefutable truth. Please nobody blow this up into "according to you", because yes, I am speaking according to me.
That didnt actually make any sense, on one hand you are saying dont say it is according to you, then you are saying it is according to you.....
My point is that if my son choses to reject his catholisism then that is his choice, i will ask him if he is sure and to consider it for a while, but will back him up in the decisions he choses to make. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:03:06 PM | Excellent post Scorpiomover!
I will express my opinion through the beautifully poignant words of "the prophet" Kahlil Gibran:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable. Exisitely beautiful and true imo :) | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:04:35 PM | | I see no problems what so ever in a Parent bringing up a Child in Their Faith. As long as there isn't any abuse mental or phyisical whats the real harm? Brain washing? We are all brain washed to some exstent call it social conditioning. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:51:25 PM | | There is no harm except if you consider the lost potential of the mind, any resulting psychological anguish, or behaviors resulting from indoctrination such as blind faith in authority which enables warfare and other gross injustices. The principle of humanism holds that people when enlightened to their own humanity will belong to mankind and get along, of some intrinsic accord. You lose that empathetic ability when your higher purpose is to wage war against non-believers, for example. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:54:11 PM | I think that us teaching children our values can lead to us teaching them mistakes and values that are not right. It can do them harm. And, I think that, because of our humanity, we all do that to a degree. However, our children will grow up and develop their own thoughts. They will disgard some of ours and discover some of their own in time.
To me, there is something far far worse that we do. We teach them high standards, and then we don't live by those standards we teach them. We treat them in ways that are unloving and that leave emotional scars.
How many of us have spent years striving to overcome our childhood?
I am older now, and this is what I have learned. I would still teach them my values. I would still discipline them for what I taught was wrong. But, if I had it to do over again, I would shower them with more love. I would tell them every day. I would show it by playing with them, and later working with them as they did their chores as a teaching example, and bonding experience.
Art | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 1:06:30 PM |
Our moral system is the same as our religious system. I argue that if you should guide you children not to hit, you are influencing control over them by establishing morals values they may have otherwise been unable to form on their own. How is this a stretch? It's influence vs. influence.
I have to disagree with this statement. When you say "our" moral system is the same as "our" religious system..are you speaking for yourself or society at large? My moral system is somewhat different from some christian systems... as a pagan my prime moral directive is to harm none (including animals or the earth)...within that I can do whatever I will. I have no moral thought about the sexuality of others as long as it is between consenting adults. There is no stipulation on drug use or alcohol or anything like that...WITHIN the "harm none" (which includes myself) so MY moral system is not the same...although ultimately the "love thy neighbors" and the Golden Rule are basically the same thing as the harm none directive.
I teach my child what I believe... but I also tell her it's a matter of conscience, it's between her heart and her relationship with the All That Is what she decides to do with her spirituality. I stress tolerance for others beliefs..BECAUSE ultimately I do not know the will of god, I am human,and fallible...and so is everyone else... and until he/she skywrites an answer to me I can't be absolutely sure what god's plan is for my kid..or even for myself. I can only follow my conscience and my reason... and my heart. I can't expect any more from my kid than I can from myself.
I guess for me it is important that I do not terrorize my kid to believe as I do...I can lead her to what I think is right...and I can teach her how to search for answers, but when it comes right down to it I have to let go, and let god! I can't make her drink from the fountain I do. I can hope that her choices will lead her to the best and highest for her, and I will always be there for her even if she doesn't follow my path. I believe that "god" as a celestial parent, understands this...and has oodles more understanding, patience and love than I do...and that's why I believe that none are lost...not in the long run. No matter what my child chooses to do she will always be my child, and beloved. No matter what I choose to do I will always be a child of god... I model the behavior I want to teach... that's really all I can do.
That's all | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 1:28:20 PM |
My children will be baptised.
How do you see your children having free will to choose their own path when you state plainly that they will be baptised in your faith? Are you actually allowing them to choose to be dunked under the water or are you telling them they will be? Clarify please.
Because if you are deciding for them, then you are not giving them the choice. You are making it for them and thereby taking away their right to choose.
By the way, Sassy, I love what you posted. Gonna have to copy it and put it on the fridge! | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 1:42:16 PM |
I teach my child what I believe... but I also tell her it's a matter of conscience, it's between her heart and her relationship with the All That Is what she decides to do with her spirituality. I stress tolerance for others beliefs..BECAUSE ultimately I do not know the will of god, I am human,and fallible...and so is everyone else... and until he/she skywrites an answer to me I can't be absolutely sure what god's plan is for my kid..or even for myself. I can only follow my conscience and my reason... and my heart. I can't expect any more from my kid than I can from myself.
Ravenstar,your words to me,are beautiful indeed! And when I read your words here and as I have read many of your posts,I have felt what I believe to be your genuine love and passion for the spirit and you have been someone that has not let any religious differences stop you from always embraces ALL of me while sharing in this forums,and I just want to come to the page and say thank you and this means a lot to me.
And what I believe in when it comes to morality also comes from my faith,this trusting and believing to the point of action,and I believe that God is looking for my faith,and with that,he will take care of my morality....and of course"what would Jesus do"...these words indeed,help me with my morality. And I also agree with hobbiest1944,I believe that we should also teach our kids by example....meaning,I believe we should teach our kids by showing an example in our walk and not just our talk. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 2:25:49 PM | I come from a very different upbringing than all of you. It was my social conditioning that was indoctrination, but my religious beliefs were mine to choose. I never felt forced to obey my religion, but I felt unfairly forced by the people around me, in social and dating environments. Even on POF, I can see that people are not prejudiced because of their faith, but definitely because of their height, weight, and other attributes. So, I question:
Is it indoctrination because we don't agree with it, or because we refuse to hear any other opinion? | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/16/2007 3:43:10 PM | DisturbedAngel wrote:
Errrrrrrrrrr,excuse me for saying this but that is utter bullsh1t!
He wasnt "thrust" into anything, i actually had a choice between 2 local primary schools... One that is one of the worst schools in the county where i live and the other which is a good school, the religion side of it wasnt an issue for me. It was place my son in an environment where fights happen daily or go to a decent school... Which did i chose i wonder?
The school HAPPENED to be a Roman Catholic one. I allowed my child to make the choices for himself, he chose to do his Holy Communion and has chosen to do his Confirmation. I know nothing much about either of them to be honest, my son has his beliefs and i have mine. I let him make choices, that is about parenting the way i see is best. I do not force him to do anything where religion is concerned.
I have VERY different beliefs to my son. I do not, for example, believe that any sin is forgiven if the person says unlimited hail marys.
You can call it "thrust" or "placed," but it's a semantic argument and the outcome is the same. You have very limited choice regarding your environment and you will end up as a product of your environment to some degree. The fact that your son, at a young age, adopted Catholicism despite being raised in a non-Catholic home illustrates that point. In this situation the peer environment (where the child spends most of their time interacting with others), particularly school for children, had more of an influence on the values of the child than the direct home environment. | |
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