| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/17/2007 8:24:12 PM | I've been reading a few posters who believe in the Nordic system of belief.
While it is very different from my own beliefs, I find it very interesting, and would like to learn more about it. Especially since one poster said that Nordic Heaven includes a place where law and philosophy is discussed, and that Valhalla is just one part, where it's more like a cool place to have battles in the daytime, and then chill out at night-time, and everyone gets healed at the end of the day. I'm not sure I'm saying it right, but it sounds like something I'd like to know more about, and I think it has a lot to inform to people of all faiths, about how to view life in a positive, self-affirming and tolerant manner, despite how it has been portrayed in the Media, and in society in general.
So, who's for starting the topic about Nordic beliefs? | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 8:25:45 AM | Ahh, a thread after my own heart!
I shall endeavor to explain as much as I can about Asatru, and I am sure what I miss, others of this faith that are on here will pick up.
Valhalla is just one place one can go to when they die. Valhalla is Odin's hall in Norse mythology, located in Gladsheim and is the home for those slain gloriously in battle who are welcomed by Bragi and escorted to Valhalla by the valkyries.
The main gate of Valhalla is called Valgrind, which is described in Grímnismál as a "sacred gate", behind which are the "holy doors" and "there are few who can tell the manner by which it is locked".
The hall itself has 540 doors, so wide that 800 warriors could walk through side-by-side. It is said that there is room enough for all those chosen. Here, every day, the slain warriors who will assist Odin in Ragnarök, the gods' final conflict with the giants, arm themselves for battle and ride forth by the thousands to engage in combat on the plains of Asgard. Those who die in the fighting will be brought back to life. At night, they return to Valhalla to feast on the boar Sæhrímnir and drink intoxicating drink.
The other place for those of our believe to go Hel (it is believed that the name of the place has been merged with the Goddess who rules it) and it is a place thronged with the shivering and shadowy spectres of those who have died ingloriously of disease or in old age. Hel also houses dishonourable people who have broken oaths. Hel is cold and low in the overall structure of Norse cosmology. It lies beneath Yggdrasil's third root, near Hvergelmir and Náströnd.
Hel is said to be a hall with a roof woven from the spines of serpents which drip poison down onto those who wade in the rivers of blood below. The people who dwell in the halls are given nothing but goat's urine to quench their thirst. The doors of the hall are said to be set in the south, away from Asgard which lies to the north.
Those that die by drowning in the ocean go to the hall of Aegir, a giant who rules the oceans and seas. Interestingly enough, Aegir is also known for hosting elaborate parties for the other Gods and Goddesses.
It should be noted that Odin does not recieve all the warriors who have died in battle. Rather, Freya, Goddess of Love, War, Death, Battle, Magic. Prophecy and Wealth, recieves half of those slain in battle. The half she recieves live with her in her hall Folkvangr.
Heathenry (also called the Elder Troth or Asatru) is the pre-Christian tribal religion and culture of the Northern European peoples known variously as the Germanic tribes, the Teutonic tribes, or the Northern Europeans. Today, Heathenry is a living religion practiced by many in the Americas and in Europe. Within it are many different sects based on the various tribal traditions or modern versions of them. Anyone, regardless of ancestry however can be Asatru, if they believe and practice the Heathen way, and can find a Asatru tribal group to accept them.
Heathen does not mean godless, in fact the Heathen peoples had many gods and goddesses. The names of many of these gods are familiar to us even today. You may recognize such gods as Odin (Wóden) god of poetry, the runes, and death; Thor (Þunor) god of thunder and the storm; Frigga (Frige) goddess of the home and children; Frey (Fréa) god of fertility and the land; Freya (Fréo) goddess of love, magic, and cats; Tyr (Tíw) god of law. There are many other gods and goddesses as well, each worshipped by many. The various gods are known by many names due to the many Germanic dialects. For example, those of the Icelandic tribal tradition refer to Odin as Oðinn while those of the Anglo-Saxon tribal tradition refer to him as Wóden. These differences are minor however, and are no different than someone that is multi-lingual pronouncing their name different ways in the different languages.
The gods are worshipped daily by Heathens as they go about their lives, but eight times a year Asatruar gather together in festivals to worship the gods and enjoin in fellowship. The names and dates of these festivals vary from tribe to tribe, but everywhere are the rites of blót and symbel performed. A blót is a form of communion with the gods, a time when food and drink are shared with them, and their blessings for our gifts are received. Symbel is a rite where toasts are made to the gods, the dead, ancestors, and our selves. While in symbel Heathens boast of their past deeds and vow to do even better deeds. All of this is done to put one's self in contact with the concept known as Wyrd.
Wyrd is one of the most complex of Asatru beliefs for it is the Law of the Universe. To demonstrate Wyrd, the ancient Heathens described it either as a well and a tree or as a great web (cloth) being woven upon a loom. The loom and web model best demonstrates how all things are connected, while the well and tree model best demonstrates how past deeds affect the present. The Web of Wyrd connects all things just as the fibers of a cloth touch many others, so every deed done affects a myriad other things. The Web of Wyrd can be seen in the life cycles and the food chains of the environment, and in our own lives. The Well of Wyrd and the World Tree ensure that past deeds determine what happens in the present. The World Tree is the present and from it drips dew which falls into the Well of Wyrd. There it sinks to the bottom to be drawn back to the present by the roots of the World Tree, or when Wyrd and her sisters water the tree every morning. The dew on the Tree represents actions or deeds being done in the present, while the water in the Well represents deeds of the past. Deeds from the past have their results in the present. In many ways it is like karma. Every deed one does has a consequence based upon some previous deed. If the deed is a good one, a Heathen will gain mægen (spiritual strength), if it is a bad one he or she will incur a scyld or "debt," and lose mægen until he or she can pay that debt with another deed. Mægen or spiritual strength is needed to get into the gods' abodes upon death. If one does not have enough mægen they will go to the abodes of punishment, or be reincarnated to try again. Therefore the folk of Asatru try to do good deeds and by keeping the Heathen thews or "virtues."
The Heathen thews are: Bravery or the ability to overcome fear, Industriousness or the ability to work hard, Friendship or the ability to be likable to others and treat them as kin, Generosity or the ability to share what is yours with others, Honesty or the ability to be truthful in all undertakings, Hospitality or the ability to open your home to others, Self reliance or the ability to depend on one's self and be an individual, Self worth or the ability to have good self esteem, Steadfastness or the ability to persevere in the face of hardship, Strength or the physical and spiritual might that allows you to accomplish great things, Troth or loyalty to friends and family and spouse, and Wisdom or the ability to gain and use knowledge. These thews encourage Heathens to depend on one's self and to help others, not just for the good of one's self, but for the good of all. Together they form what is known as honor or worth and it is the aim of most Heathens to be honorable by practicing these thews with friend and stranger alike.
Asatru as said before is a tribal religion. In today's world however, after 1,000 years of Christianity, Heathens have had to form artificial "tribes." Many Heathens are members of local groups, most often called kindreds, but also called hearths, garths, and samnungs. There are also the national organizations, such as The Ring of Troth and The Asatru Alliance, as well as fledgling groups such as the Ealdriht. While every group has its own tradition, nearly all of them express a belief in the beliefs outlined here or some variation of them. Every group has different guidelines for membership, and these vary a great deal, but many gorups like the the Ring of Troth allow anyone to join.
Asatru is a great religion. Wermen (males) and women are treated as equals, and one is judged by the merits of his or her deeds. Heathens have a one on one relationship with their gods and goddesses, there is no need to go through an intermediary like a priest (though priests are available). The pantheon of gods is large, and one need not be restricted to just one god or goddess as in the great monotheistic religions. Asatru is a religion of honor, of family values, of respect for others, and the environment. Heathen know that they are responsible for their own deeds, and that every deed has a consequence.
~Freya  | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 9:46:32 AM | Hey scorpiomover!
I would be the poster that you are refering to about the Heaven comments.
One of the cool things I've noticed about Norse belief in the afterlife is that, as elaborate as it could and can apparently get, is that it is all rooted in something readily observable.... the deeds one performed while alive and consequently how they are remembered after death.
Forsooth, it is difficult for any man to say what awaits us in the great beyond, but we do know that the deeds of some people transcends their mortality, their reputation is far flung and well remembered, and they become like "stars" in the "heavens".
As the Anglo-Saxon Rune Poem says, "Glory is one helluva token, it keeps faith well with princes, it is always on course over nights mist, it never switches."
Alot of Nordic ideas about the afterlife are, as one might expect of a belief system that is fundamentally wholistic in nature, rooted in observation of worldly facts. Hell *can be* as simple and matter of fact as "just the grave" for instance, while the hall of serpents that Freya commented on *can be* as simple as a pit of adders or the bogs our ancestors used to sink the worst kinds of capital offenders in.
Anyway, if you have any questions, I'm always game so feel free to fire away! | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:20:29 PM | I always find it hard to take claims of practicing old norse faith seriously.
What they are practicing is a best guess reconstruction of a dead system.
The simple facts are that the bulk of what we know of norse mythology and religious practices comes from christian priests more then 200 years after conversion.
In short, Asatru is as authentically ancient as Wicca; that is, not even 100 years old. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:49:57 PM | At no point do I say I am practicing what my ancestors did. I have no way of knowing how they practiced their belief.
I do not believe it is a dead system though. Just one that was pushed aside for what was becoming more popular.
Besides, to try to practice in the way of my ancestors would most likely require males to be armored and sword weilding and battling every chance they got in order to ensure they got a seat in Valhalla and not Hel. Not something that is going to happen again.
Perhaps if you asked if we believed it was authentic, you would know that none of us claim it is. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 1:31:01 PM | | Very interesting story...sounds very mystical and magical....almost felt like I was reading the instructions on how to play World of Warcraft. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 1:35:59 PM |
I always find it hard to take claims of practicing old norse faith seriously.
What they are practicing is a best guess reconstruction of a dead system.
The simple facts are that the bulk of what we know of norse mythology and religious practices comes from christian priests more then 200 years after conversion.
How very insightful! Other than the fact that no one here is saying that they are practising Nordic belief as it was practiced in the Viking Age, or Iron Age, or Bronze Age, or any age other than the one that we're in, here, today... just like the ancestors did.
Why would we want to make such claims when the Nordic belief was never about a zealously clinging to a singular and unique event or events fossilized at some specific point in the past?
And Nordic belief is far more alive and viable a system of belief, with the continuance of it's peoples, culture/s and language/s, than, say, Christianity for instance.
I always like to make a point of actually learning something about a subject before I go throwing around "the simple facts" on it like I'm actually somekinda learned authority on what comprises "the bulk" of a particular subject. And that goes double if I'm inclined to be a smug arse about it.
But, you know, each to their own. I hope that works for ya! | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 1:52:36 PM | Very interesting story...sounds very mystical and magical....almost felt like I was reading the instructions on how to play World of Warcraft.
I find it funny that people can ridicule other peoples beliefs so easily yet get so irrate when their beliefs are simply questioned.
Never once have I made a post mocking the belief of someone else yet I have seen a lot of christians continually do it to those that follow different paths. Why is this?
Lancione, try practicing tolerance and acceptance. It might get you farther in your life.
EDIT
By the way, I have played World of Warcraft. Game sucks too. However...
let me see... I dont have magic to kill orcs (or evil undead or any other thing set to be killed).. which I do not think there are such things as orcs (although some people look like them). I cant kill creatures and others to get gold.. and if I could.. there would be a lot of dead people... I cant level up to get better powers and abilities though that might be pretty cool...
To try to compare a religion to a game is simply ridiculous, especially when you are so narrow minded that you cannot even read the description of the religion correctly.
Excuse me now while I go "level" to get my resurrection ability (would that make me a Goddess if I can bring people back from the dead?) and save the world from the evil undead who want to take over the world through stealing pumpkins. /sarcasm | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 3:26:37 PM |
At no point do I say I am practicing what my ancestors did. I have no way of knowing how they practiced their belief.
I do not believe it is a dead system though. Just one that was pushed aside for what was becoming more popular.
Besides, to try to practice in the way of my ancestors would most likely require males to be armored and sword weilding and battling every chance they got in order to ensure they got a seat in Valhalla and not Hel. Not something that is going to happen again.
Perhaps if you asked if we believed it was authentic, you would know that none of us claim it is.
How very insightful! Other than the fact that no one here is saying that they are practising Nordic belief as it was practiced in the Viking Age, or Iron Age, or Bronze Age, or any age other than the one that we're in, here, today... just like the ancestors did.
Why would we want to make such claims when the Nordic belief was never about a zealously clinging to a singular and unique event or events fossilized at some specific point in the past?
And Nordic belief is far more alive and viable a system of belief, with the continuance of it's peoples, culture/s and language/s, than, say, Christianity for instance.
I always like to make a point of actually learning something about a subject before I go throwing around "the simple facts" on it like I'm actually somekinda learned authority on what comprises "the bulk" of a particular subject. And that goes double if I'm inclined to be a smug arse about it.
But, you know, each to their own. I hope that works for ya!
You know. It would have been nice if you two had understood what I was saying rather then automatically jumping on me with your defensiveness.
You ask me to tell YOU where you said that you thought you were practicing the ancient faith, so I am countering with this: Where the hell did I say I was referring to you two specifically? I was responding to the OP. Meanwhile, you cannot presume to speak for others ("Perhaps if you asked if we believed it was authentic, you would know that none of us claim it is. "), there are undoubtedly many who think otherwise.
As for "actually learning something about a subject before I go throwing around "the simple facts" on it", JMars, when the hell are you going to realize that the focus of my studies is History and Religion? I am in a position to know full well that the majority of what we know about pre-christian norse beliefs and practices come from long after the fact. I think that the fact that I OWN and USE those sources, and understand their origins leaves me in a solid position to say WHERE HELL THEY COME FROM.
I am also fully aware that by far the majority of people claiming to follow the norse religion conveniently leave out the fact that they practice a modern reconstruction.
So, again. THINK before getting your panties all in a bloody twist eh?
Read before you bloody post. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 3:30:02 PM | | As a christian i dont believe in this but do find it very interesting. I love all type of history and like to know about other faiths. Where could i go to find out more? | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 3:31:32 PM |
So, again. THINK before getting your panties all in a bloody twist eh? Read before you bloody post. Paul, I offer my apologies for misunderstanding who you were speaking to. It was a simple misunderstanding. ~Freya | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/18/2007 7:22:03 PM | History and Religion. Good luck making money with that.
Any way, The Edda was written by Snorri (catchy name). His ancestors were firm believers in Norse Gods. Besides, his poetic Edda is usually thought of primarily as a handbook for aspiring poets.
Predating his "writings" are Rune and Image stones depicting Norse Gods and their stories and achievements. (well before your thirteenth century book) You might need to study a little more. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/19/2007 12:52:15 PM | Here’s an interesting interpretation of Asatru, for your perusal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1nI1qA9zJQ
I hope this is helpful to you.
...
One question, is there any religion that is practiced identically today as it was say around the year 999 (I just picked a number out of the cosmos) or before? | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/19/2007 1:02:52 PM | Yeah, you're right Freya, in that Paul and I have long since passed the point of considering what the other is saying and are doing little more now than speaking past each other.
Suffice it to say that, yes, "Asatru" is a modern reconstruction.... that the Eddas are in no way a fundamental building block for the reconstruction... and that no Asatruar that I have ever come across has boasted that his/her beliefs and practices are identical to those practiced in the Viking Age.
Moreover, as Wicca was invented whole clothe in the modern age, and Asatru is based on what historical evidence remains to us of an actual elder culture and belief system, any comparison is flawed to say the least.
Anyway, my apologies to all for the hostilities. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 11/19/2007 1:18:33 PM |
Where could i go to find out more?
Well, to cast as broad a net as possible you could just type "Asatru" or maybe "Theodish belief" into a search engine and follow the results. But here is a link for convenience sake...
http://normannii.org/beliefs/index.html | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 1/27/2008 10:50:02 PM | | Yay Ive been looking for an asatru thread. Im new to it myself so im looking forward to going through all the pages. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 1/27/2008 11:17:22 PM | Most religion is reconstructed now we have but tiny threads to grasp hold of what the ancients believed. From my specific point why I personally dont say reconstructionist is because frankly no one gives a shit lol seriously nobody ever asks me what do you believe ... well you see I believe in reconstructed nordic beliefs from the iron age and blah blah blah people want a name something quick they can google if they feel like it What do you believe in oh I'm Asatru, oh ok thats cool.
Its just easier I know wicca was mostly created in the 50s by the golden dawn . None of us in our flesh and ego idenities of this life were there so no one can say for sure I wont get into past life stuff cuz people always look at me like Im insane anyways.
There are people especially in paganism who like tittles fundamentalist pagans who think theyre better and drop names to make themselves seem all important. Ive come accross alot of high priestesses who think they're better just because they've been in the craft longer etc I may only be a first degree studying wicca or a first degree reiki but that doesnt make me less valid.
I think thats silly and I find it hard to respect people who go around saying "Im and incarnated angel and star person" what ever I dont think people should share these things I think its something to keep to yourself. Ive learned this Ive even gotten into trouble once or twice revealing totem animals who which to be kept secret. My revealing encounters is always to sorta get advice or teach in some way. Ive had lots of encounters with deities etc but everyone does it doesnt make anyone more special I identify with your slight frustration or amusement at those who walk around holding tittles.
To be a shaman to be a healer etc. You are given that tittle by others. You never call yourself that. The whole point of healing is to step out of your ego which is very hard and face the problem as a person wishing to help with what wisdom they have and specialized techniques.
I personally never claim to be anything I just say heathen or asatru because thats what the name is that identifies a certain belief system old new or inbetween.
I know Kemeticism and Hellenic views are also really about the reconstruction and go into great detail about it. I'm not master nor scholar so I cant give any fact dates or anything else but I do also study religion and history 10 years now Ive been pagan but in reality the grand scope the sheer volume I know nothing and that makes me quest all the more further to soak it all up. | |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 12:22:51 PM |
One question, is there any religion that is practiced identically today as it was say around the year 999 (I just picked a number out of the cosmos) or before? I cannot say that ANY religion is practised "identically" as it was over 1000 years ago, because the world has changed so much. From what I understand, there was no internet 1,000 years ago. Now, there is internet in almost every country in the world.
But there are many religions which have an unbroken chain of tradition that is very similar to the religion as it was practised 1000 years ago:
1) Orthodox Judaism
2) Shintoism
3) Buddhism
4) Hinduism
5) Many Amazonian tribes, African tribes and Aboriginal tribes, still retain their religions in the same way as they were kept. I would imagine that so do many Eskimos, many North Americans, and many Maoris still keep their traditions. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 19 | |
| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 1/28/2008 2:46:03 PM | Its amazing how many old beliefs get adopted by new age experts ... The one that springs to mind is voudun .. Its supposed to be the religion that is at the back of voodoo and its touted as the generic African religion. Unfortunately each tribe and probably region had its own beliefs. The 'experts' simply look for similarities and forget about detail. I dont see anything wrong with practicing modern reconstructions, its the dishonesty of claiming that its an ancient tradition that makers me suspect the rest of the motivation of those espousing that particualar belief system.
I spent 15 years with the Norse Film and Paegant Society, weekends spent battling in armour, and way too much heavy drinking, I earnt my place in Valahalla ...  | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 2/1/2008 9:06:41 AM | Dear Organic Earth
All religion and belief structures are constructed or reconstructed from earlier or ancient civilizations.Because when we see ourselves as seperate from everything else in creation , we feel the need to create a belief or religious view that relates to the outside or seperate world...the world that we think is actually real..real is a loosely used word.So that we can use it as a bridge to connect to what already exists within us.
Our belief structures are all unique unto themselves for no one believes in the same things to a tee. Even though All belief structures have the same basic concepts they are all hiearchial based with something at the top and something at the bottom...they are composed of male and females aspects reflecting the dualistic or paradoxical aspect that we see in this creation ,everything having its place..We all see a creator whether it be a god /goddess at the top of the chain ....or a multitude of gods and goddesses,archangels ,angels or beings of faery...that in a reality just reflect aspects of ourselves manifested upon a physical realm ,.We all see variations because we are all unique aspects of the divine.You say that you find it hard to respect people that speak there truth .....that in its self is a judgement...and it is not our place to judge others ..it is only our place to judge ourselves ...We are but reflections of eachother so when judging others we are just judging ourselves..Now there are those that hold title over others but again thats how belief structure is established on this realm and we have all accepted it as gospel up untill now...the current age.On the spiritual plane ,one of non physical reality there are no secrets ..only mankind thinks there are secrets but even thoughts act upon the energetic world before they become physical expressions.....or creations. Why do we say Amen at the end of a prayer or innvocation ? why do we protect ourselves when doing any sort of energy work or out of body journeys? or when connecting with spirit outside of ourselves ? Because all things are open and all things that exist on the realms that we call upon ,,,can enter when we call or act upon those realms.. when we sit at home alone are we really alone ? Oh and as for you getting in trouble for revealing aspects of self to others in the past...whom ever or whatever is giving you trouble is violate your free will .because its impressing its views upon you .......
ARCANE | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 8/27/2009 6:13:21 AM | | It sounds very violent, the whole fighting in heaven and then your healed. It sounds like this belief would cause people, men particularly to fight in fear of going to hell. So if a leader has a pollitcal agenda that was essentially evil, the fear and duty to serve god would out way the reality of the wars effects. Almost like Islam. | |
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| Nordic Beliefs
Posted: 8/27/2009 4:06:51 PM | It sounds very violent, the whole fighting in heaven and then your healed. It sounds like this belief would cause people, men particularly to fight in fear of going to hell. So if a leader has a pollitcal agenda that was essentially evil, the fear and duty to serve god would out way the reality of the wars effects. Almost like Islam.
As far as I have read, Hel is hardly mentioned in any detail in Nordic lore, and even where it is, it's mostly just a creepy, sombre, mysterious place.
And I read that even though the slain got to go to Valhalla, or Folkvangr, it apparently wasn't an eternal reward. It is mentioned they would eventually be called to fight on the field Ragnarok takes place on, which is where they will die.
Honestly I have no idea how it was supposed to work.  | |
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