| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 8:52:10 AM | German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban
“Germany could be asked to ban the U.S.-based Church of Scientology under a Hamburg security official's proposal that contends the group violates human rights.
Hamburg's secretary of the interior, Udo Nagel, plans to seek a nationwide ban of Scientology at this week's meeting of top German security officials, spokeswoman Ulrike Sweden said Monday.
The German government considers Scientology a commercial enterprise that takes advantage of vulnerable people.”
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread318952/pg1
I’m just wondering how many more denominations are going to fall, given that this succeeds and is seen as a human rights violation.
What’s your opinion on this and the likelihood of other’s faiths following around the globe?
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 8:56:08 AM | | I don't think it will happen. Or at least I hope it doesn't. And for Germany with it's history of rights abuses, this is sad. Not that I'm in agreement with the CoS. Personal experiences with Scientology makes me cringe at the abuse of people and the lies and fluff science they use to manipulate, but the peop0le have a right to believe what they believe and it isn't the State's function to decide what is the "right' or "wrong" belief system, only to protect the rights of all to believe whatever they want to believe. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 9:13:45 AM | Its not just Germany, I think I wrote in a post a couple of weeks ago that the Belgians are basically outlawing Scientology.
A Belgian prosecutor recommended that the Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology stand trial on charges of fraud and extortion, after a 10-year investigation. The prosecutor, Jean-Claude Van Espen, said that up to 12 people from the church should face charges and that his inquiry had concluded that Scientology’s Brussels-based Europe office and its Belgian missions had conducted unlawful practices in medicine, violated privacy laws and used illegal business contracts. The Church of Scientology said it would fight the charges.
Its a tricky position as its chief European office is in Belgium. I also found this website ... http://www.nots.org/ ... I agree with optimist in a way, I agree its not the States position to judge what peole want to believe in, but the State does have a right to make sure religious organisations claiming tax free status and other benefits are doing so legitimately. As well as making sure they are practicing ethically. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 11:42:54 AM |
I don't think it will happen. Or at least I hope it doesn't. And for Germany with it's history of rights abuses, this is sad. Not that I'm in agreement with the CoS. Personal experiences with Scientology makes me cringe at the abuse of people and the lies and fluff science they use to manipulate, but the peop0le have a right to believe what they believe and it isn't the State's function to decide what is the "right' or "wrong" belief system, only to protect the rights of all to believe whatever they want to believe.
1) that is an uncalled for cheap shot. 2) They would be banning an institution, people would still be able to believe as they desire, just without the Church of Scientology weaseling people out of their money using a glorified polygraph. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 11:56:01 AM | 2) They would be banning an institution, people would still be able to believe as they desire, just without the Church of Scientology weaseling people out of their money using a glorified polygraph. Years ago in Australia a buddy of mine was sucked in by the E-meter the pseudoscientologist's used. At that time the cost of the E- meter was around $700 if I remember rightly. I went and purchased about 30 bucks worth of materials from D i c k Smith's electronics in Sydney and built a cheap polygraph. I demonstrated the thing on my buddy. That was the last of his involvement with scientology.
However, that said - they should have the right to practice their beliefs. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 12:35:39 PM | Anyone who knows anything about the German legal system of today knows it is a meticulous, slow but precise beast that is quite thorough in its capacity to investigate and burrow through bureaucracy.
$cientology has been so investigated by the German legal system for many years. They know it is not a "belief system" but an elaborate con to part people with their money decked out with the trappings of religion, based on Z grade science fiction. It shouldn't be just banned in Germany, it should be banned everywhere.
This "belief system" is the only religion to have the distinction of being convicted under Canadian law for serious breaches of the public trust.
IF it's a real religion, then we'll see it spring to life as an underground movement and flourish. If however it is the scam that most thinking people know it to be, the cons that run it will tire of the inconvenience of trying to part rubes with their cash and move on to something easier like drugs, prostitution, gambling, or poisoning the earth as corporate heads.
And then maybe Tom Cruise will finally come out of the closet and learn to act and make a good movie. It could happen... | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 1:27:39 PM | Scientology is a different religion than most. 1) It was started by a Science Fiction Writer. 2) It claims to be founded on Science, not faith.
I got a job in a Scientology office when I was 18. I was passing, and dropped in. They first made me do a psych test, and showed that I could benefit from many of their courses. They said every member of Scientology worked for them, and that if I joined, I could get the courses for cheap, but I would have to pay the full price back if I left before a few years. I took the job. The first thing they did was show me round.
There was a room reserved for L. Ron Hubbard at the top of the building. They said that such a room existed in every Scientology office in the world, so that L. Ron Hubbard could drop in from his Yacht when he wanted. I asked them if he had ever visited. They said he never did, but that he could. Remember that I was 18 on Oct 31, 1987. L. Ron Hubbard had been dead for 1 year and 9 months by this time. A fact they conveniently forgot to mention.
The first thing they got me doing was filing. It turned out that I was filing personnel records. Each file contained notes on the person's attendance, with things like: "X has been late. Very bad." "Y has been late 3 times. He is a very bad person." "Y has been late 4 times. He is a sinner. We will have to do something about Y." This went on for over a hundred personnel. These reports read like they were school-reports, written by a child. I looked at those reports, and thought that my file could look like that. I was very worried. I finished the end of the day, said good-night, and went home. I never went back.
I have been to many other religious organisations, from Ultra-Orthodox Jewish, to Liberal Jewish, to Catholic services, to Muslim meetings. I even sat in on a meeting of the Manchester chapter of the Socialist Workers Party. I have never seen anything like that.
Maybe I am biased. I might one day take a course. But I would pay for a course and that is it. I am never going to join an organisation with personnel files like that.
If they wanted to, they could still set themselves up as offering courses in self-development, just like Anthony Robbins. They just couldn't call themselves a Church. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 2:01:27 PM | I said:
I don't think it will happen. Or at least I hope it doesn't. And for Germany with it's history of rights abuses, this is sad. Not that I'm in agreement with the CoS. Personal experiences with Scientology makes me cringe at the abuse of people and the lies and fluff science they use to manipulate, but the people have a right to believe what they believe and it isn't the State's function to decide what is the "right' or "wrong" belief system, only to protect the rights of all to believe whatever they want to believe. paulthesane said:
1) that is an uncalled for cheap shot. 2) They would be banning an institution, people would still be able to believe as they desire, just without the Church of Scientology weaseling people out of their money using a glorified polygraph. It wasn't a cheap shot. Germans as a general population are very, very sensitive to not encroaching on the rights of others, and have very strong laws that punish those who do act against others, even punishing them for saying and publishing "hate". And this is a "freedom of religion" issue. I think it would harm Germany's reputation more than it would help it. And after they've banned the CoS, who should they ban next, paulthesane? The Moonies? How about the JWs? The Lutheran and Catholic churches take money right of a person's pay check (Kirchensteuer)? What's that about? Should they be banned for forcing the faithful to pay them? How about the non-aligned Baptists and Pentecostals that aren't "official" religions in Germany? Should they be banned? Muslims seem to have more than a fair share of radicals and extremists. maybe Islam should be banned in Germany. What do you think? | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 5:07:14 PM |
It wasn't a cheap shot. Germans as a general population are very, very sensitive to not encroaching on the rights of others, and have very strong laws that punish those who do act against others, even punishing them for saying and publishing "hate". And this is a "freedom of religion" issue. I think it would harm Germany's reputation more than it would help it. And after they've banned the CoS, who should they ban next, paulthesane? The Moonies? How about the JWs? The Lutheran and Catholic churches take money right of a person's pay check (Kirchensteuer)? What's that about? Should they be banned for forcing the faithful to pay them? How about the non-aligned Baptists and Pentecostals that aren't "official" religions in Germany? Should they be banned? Muslims seem to have more than a fair share of radicals and extremists. maybe Islam should be banned in Germany. What do you think?
Banning the Church of Scientology is completely different from banning Islam. Scientology is a bloody scam and if Germany concludes that it should be banned then they are declaring that the Church of Scientology is not a religious institution. Others here as well as I, have already stated that if it there is truly religion buried in there, then the banning of the scam will let that grow into its own. To say that such an act would be like banning Islam is nothing but bullshit equivocating. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/6/2007 8:51:44 PM | i followed this case when it first hit the Germany. the Germans and French (working together on this) dont see sciencetology as a legit religion. Once German courts kick them out, other European countries will do the same. the government doesnt have a problem with religions coming in, but they do have problems with cults.
i can see why they want to do it, too. the gov gives a good arguement | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/8/2007 12:51:28 AM | I suggest taking a good look at this "religion" from a few of the investigative websites out there...the most popular and most often unsuccesfully attempted-to-be-banned by $cientology is www.xenu.net or as it is popularly known Operation: Clambake.
http://www.xenu.net/ The Unofficial Biography of L. Ron Hubbard, The "Bare-faced Messiah" http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm
Also the Rick Ross Cultwatch site http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html
I note the site Scientology-Kills has since been shut down... hmm. This one has survived however... http://www.scientology-lies.com/
HolySmoke. Org has a large section on this so-called religion.
http://www.holysmoke.org/theta.htm
If after reading this material, you still feel motivated to feel any feelings of amity and charity towards this group and wish to allow them to peddle their wares...well...might I suggest sticking your head in a bucket of piranha fish. Oh just before that, please make out a check to me for all of your life savings, c/o Happy Dude, and email me with contact information. Thanks awfully  | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/8/2007 11:22:53 AM | Germany HAS Declared the CoS as UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Hubbard said: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion."
What the CoS really believes:
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/263120
click watch this movie | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/8/2007 11:45:51 AM | Or you could watch that episode of South Park - believe it or not - they actually had facts in the show. (I take it madfiddler you watched it? LOL)
I do believe that you have the right to follow whatever faith you want too - as long as it doesn't interfere with others. But it is sad that so many people looking for the answers can get their pockets emptied. Faith shouldn't be about money - it should be about your connection to a higher power - not to line the pockets of some greedy organization. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/8/2007 12:58:32 PM | Here is a well sourced animation of some of the crimes and people that CoS has murdered.
WARNING: THERE ARE AUTOPSY PHOTOGRAPHS
AGAIN
WARNING: THERE ARE AUTOPSY PHOTOGRAPHS
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/8/2007 1:20:47 PM | If you also do some of your own research you will find that the CoS was involved in the Terri Schiavo death.
As the CoS states" disability is not an option, and just like the woman in the animation Terri Schiavo was starved to death under court order, whom were the lawyers?
CoS.
Both of these starvation murders, forced euthanasias*, were commited in Florida.
*Not to be confuse with assissted suicide. As and aside: FYI did you know that until the early 1970's Alberta's right wing neoConservative government supported its very own Eugenics program at the Michener Centre whereby the disabled, Jews, Catholics, natives, un-wed mothers, eastern Europeans etc were sterilised against their will and/or with their knowledge or consent.
So it is not just Cults, but also governments; the truly horrifying factor is when cults like the CoS become ingrained in governments like we have seen in Florida.
When this happens WE are all in grave Danger; Germany should be applauded for its forthright attack on this insidious homicidal cult. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/11/2007 2:37:38 PM | Much as I'd like to answer others posts, I have to be honest and address my own point of view. It was always going to attract bias, given the nature of the topic. Those who think it's a free for all to bash others opinions haven't really understood the reason of the thread.
Germany isn't the fascist state it was, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does seem to contravene human rights with this proposal. On the other hand the way I see it, if authorities have enough evidence that suggest murder and abuses of individual’s privileges, the sooner they and like-minded denominations fall to the axe - the better. I thank those who have highlighted accounts and I hope to see the thread expand on the question...
What is your opinion on this and the likelihood of other faiths, suffering a similar fate, around the globe? | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 12/11/2007 8:47:11 PM | | Not sure I agree that scientology should be banned, or any religion for that matter. But I do think that regardless of thier degree as a commercial enterprise, all churches should pay taxes like the rest of us. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/4/2008 2:30:42 PM | Scientology has been attacked since day one. The IRS, CIA, FBI, Media, Psychiatry, etc, has tried to put them out of operation, but they have proven they are a Bona-fide religon. They recently were proven to be a genuine religon in europe. http://www.freedommag.org/english/canada/vol004i1/page07.htm The "New World Order" idea, is to have one world religon. This is just their plan, to contol the population, by doing away with all opposition. doesnt matter if you agree with Scientology or not, no-one should have absolute contol. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/4/2008 2:54:07 PM |
This is just their plan, to control the population, by doing away with all opposition. doesnt matter if you agree with Scientology or not, no-one should have absolute contol. No sure if you are in favour of "doing away with the opposition" or not, because then you say "doesnt matter if you agree with Scientology or not, no-one should have absolute contol."
Care to explain? | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/4/2008 3:07:57 PM |
Scientology has been attacked since day one.
That is a part of the mythology, for sure, and the "self-victimization" or "martyrdom" fixation is a feature of many religious cults or movements...
The IRS, CIA, FBI, Media, Psychiatry, etc, has tried to put them out of operation, but they have proven they are a Bona-fide religon.
Several of those organizations have investigated Scientology and one might say not without reason as a perusal of the history of that group seems to indicate. As to whether they have proven that they are a "bona-fide" religion, that seems to be a matter of legal definition in several countries for taxation purposes. What it means in any other regard is entirely up to its adherants. Under German law there is a move to depict Scientology as a criminal organization that exists to defraud people of money. That is the issue under discussion.
They recently were proven to be a genuine religon in europe. http://www.freedommag.org/english/canada/vol004i1/page07.htm
That reference, to a Scientology published magazine, doesn't say anything of the sort. It simply states that in that specific case:
The court stated in its 67-page ruling, “Neither the defendants individually, nor collectively, nor through the Church of Scientology, nor through Narconon [drug rehabilitation program] ... have committed any type of illicit act, and therefore they are acquitted of all charges brought by the public prosecutor.”
As to this next assertion...
The "New World Order" idea, is to have one world religon. This is just their plan, to contol the population, by doing away with all opposition. doesnt matter if you agree with Scientology or not, no-one should have absolute contol.
If auditing makes one start to believe in "New World Order" fantasies of single religions and one world governments I would suggest that the contacts have been dusted with some illicit substances...perhaps a leftover from L. Ron's medicine chest...oh yeah...that's right he never took drugs did he
Making up a list of specious "enemies" and attacking them is all part of the Scientology modus operandi and this we have known about since "day one" (see www.xenu.org and the unauthorized biography of the Bare-Faced Messiah) for a good description of these exercises in paranoia.
Scientology is the one "religion" that has the distinction of being successfully prosecuted in Canada for breach of trust...among other things including various criminal offenses...
from http://www.skeptictank.org/gen1/gen00587.htm
July 1995 The Supreme Court in Canada affirms Hill's libel judgment against CoST. The ruling reads, in part:
"Scientology continued its attack against Casey Hill throughout the trial of this action, both in the presence of the jury and in its absence. More than once, it reiterated the libel even though it knew that these allegations were false. ...
"In summary, every aspect of this case demonstrates the very real and persistent malice of Scientology. ...
"Scientology's behavior throughout can only be characterized as recklessly high-handed, supremely arrogant and contumacious. There seems to have been a continuing conscious effort on Scientology's part to intensify and perpetuate its attack on Casey Hill without any regard for the truth of its allegations. ...
"There can be no doubt that the conduct of Scientology in the publication of the injurious false statement pertaining to its 'enemy' was malicious. Its publication was carefully planned and carried out in a manner which ensured its widest possible dissemination in the most damaging manner imaginable. ... Scientology's actions from the time of publication, throughout the trial, and after the trial decision was rendered constituted a continuing attempt at character assassination by means of a statement which it knew to be false. It was such outrageous conduct that it cried out for the imposition of punitive damages.
Scientology finally pays Casey Hill, including interest. Seven of the ten existing Scientology organizations in Ontario are subsequently closed.
Sept 1996 Court of Appeal for Ontario upholds 1992 criminal conviction of Church of Scientology Toronto for Breach of Public Trust.
Sept 1999 Revenue Canada reveals that it has refused Scientology's petition to be recognized as a Charity for Religious Purposes.
See also:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html http://www.xenu-directory.net/index.html http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=340&Itemid=30
A word from the founder on how to deal with critics of Scientology...duck and cover...
If a group of "scientists" were knowingly raising the number of insane to get more appropriation and "treatment" fees and somebody came along with the real answer, that group would move heaven and earth to protect its billions of rake-off.
And so individuals, governments and "scientists" attack Scientology.
It's as simple as that. We do not treat the sick or the insane. We break no laws. We do more good in any ten minutes of this planet's time than the combined efforts of all social ministries on Earth to better mankind.
Stated that way, however, it looks pretty hopeless and even dangerous to be a Scientologist.
Except it is totally hopeless and fatal not to be a Scientologist.
Those who are not Scientologists are left in complete ignorance of the motives of the dishonest. And they have no chance of personal immortality. It is as simple as that. It is better to be endangered but with a chance than to be condemned utterly and without one.
Those who criticize one for being a Scientologist or make snide remarks cannot stand a personal survey of past actions or motive. This happens to be a fortunate fact for us. The criminal abhors daylight. And we are the daylight.
Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a critic of Scientology, we have found crimes for which that person or group could be imprisoned under existing law. Wc do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal pasts. Over and over we prove this.
[...]
We are slowly and carefully teaching the unholy a lesson. It is as follows: "We are not a law enforcement agency. BUT wc will become interested in the crimes of people who seek to stop us. If you oppose Scientology we promptly look up—and will find and expose—your crimes. If you leave us alone we will leave you alone."
It's very simple. Even a fool can grasp that.
And don't underrate our ability to carry it out.
Our business is helping people to lead better lives. We even help those who have committed crimes, for we are not here to punish. But those who try to make life hard for us are at once at risk.
We are only interested in doing our job. And we are only interested in the crimes of those who try to prevent us from doing our work. There is no good reason to oppose Scientology. In our game everybody wins.
And we have this technical fact—those who oppose us have crimes to hide. It's perhaps merely lucky that this is true. But it is true. And we handle opposition well only when we use it.
[...]
Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes exist. Because they do.
Life will suddenly become much more interesting—and you'll become much less suppressed!
— L. Ron Hubbard HCOB 5 November 1967 Critics Of Scientology pdf
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/4/2008 5:06:50 PM | Some additional links...
My apologies for the additional post...the one link in my previous post was incorrect, it should read www.xenu.net to go to Operation:Clambake... one of the largest clearinghouses of Scientology information on the web that this organization doesn't want people to read...including the biography "The Bare-Faced Messiah"
http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm
See also BBC's Panorama expose and what happens to a reporter who attempts to investigate this organization...and also his florid apology for shouting at a smug stalker and coming off like (in his words) "an exploding tomato"...he can hardly be blamed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/6655207.stm
Save yourself tens of thousands to get to OT III...read the Xenu Leaflet here...
http://www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/
Operation Clambake presents: What Scientology Won't Tell You - An Information Pack http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/ | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/5/2008 6:56:24 AM | I approve of the banning the church of scientology. They are not much different than a pyramid scheme. The charge hundreds of thousands for people to learn their teachings and are extremely dishonest about their mythology. They hide the nonsense about Xenu untill you are far too invested in the religion to get out. Furthermore they use cult like tactics and threaten their critics with multiple frivolous lawsuits.
This site : http://www.xenu.net/ has a lot of resources concerning the truth about this cult. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/8/2008 1:19:50 PM | Like it was already stated, they can ban the institution, but they can't ban the belief.
I don't really like this religion myself, but nobody(that's right, nobody) can control what you believe... There are lots of religions (or takes on different religions) which are commercial enterprises that take advantage of vulnerable people... The only way to stop this from happening (in my view) is to educate people so they are not decieved by power hungry con artists.
I mean... This has been happening for like... Ever. | |
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| German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban Posted: 1/8/2008 2:08:09 PM |
I don't think it will happen. Or at least I hope it doesn't. And for Germany with it's history of rights abuses, this is sad. Not that I'm in agreement with the CoS. Personal experiences with Scientology makes me cringe at the abuse of people and the lies and fluff science they use to manipulate, but the peop0le have a right to believe what they believe and it isn't the State's function to decide what is the "right' or "wrong" belief system, only to protect the rights of all to believe whatever they want to believe.
I don't believe we should have the right to believe what ever we want. I think its high time we took our power back. I couldn't be happier to see this happen and I think the more countries that do this the better. I'm not one hundred percent sure but i think the UK has ousted them as well. My only question is how did other religions make it through the radar? Perhaps its time we looked at religion a little closer and made the same rulings for others that have been established but clearly violate human rights.
It has been proven that we can be brainwashed to believe something and quite quickly with the right scripts and stage show. The whole idea of religion needs to be revisited and exposed for what it really is.
Thanks for posting this. I think attitudes like the above quote are examples of other religious believers that know that they could be next.
crazylilting | |
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