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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 4:24:53 PM | NEW YORK (CNN) -- A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.
Ex-CIA agent John Kiriakou says he underwent waterboarding in training and cracked in a few seconds.
1 of 2 Former CIA operative John Kiriakou also told CNN's "American Morning" that he disagrees with a decision to destroy videotapes of certain interrogations, namely of al Qaeda's Abu Zubayda. Kiriakou made the remarks as two congressional committees prepared to grill CIA Director Michael Hayden on the destruction of the tapes and on "alternative" means of interrogation.
Waterboarding begins by placing a suspect on a table with the suspect's feet slightly elevated, said Kiriakou, who was waterboarded several years ago as part of his CIA training. He said he elected not to learn how to perform the technique, which is designed to emulate the sensation of drowning.
Once a suspect is secured on the table, interrogators wrap his or her face in a cellophane-like material, Kiriakou said.
"There is a bladder, or a water source, above the head with water pouring down on the mouth, so no water is going into your mouth, but it induces a gag reflex and makes you feel like you're choking," Kiriakou said. Watch the ex-agent describe the procedure »
Kiriakou said he lasted only a few seconds during his training because his body felt like it was seizing up almost immediately.
"It's entirely unpleasant," Kiriakou said. "You are so full of tension that you tense up, your muscles tighten up. It's very uncomfortable."
Abu Zubayda lasted a little longer, said Kiriakou, but not much.
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The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions.
All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.
The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said.
The CIA was unaware of Mohammed's stature before the Abu Zubayda interrogation, the former agent said.
"Abu Zubayda's the one who told us that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was so important in the al Qaeda structure, and we didn't realize at the time how important he was," Kiriakou said.
Abu Zubayda also divulged information on "al Qaeda's leadership structure and mentioned people who we really didn't have any familiarization with [and] told us who we should be thinking about, who we should be looking at, and who was important in the organization so we were able to focus our investigation this way," Kiriakou said.
Abu Zubayda reportedly told the agent who waterboarded him that "Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate because it would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured," Kiriakou said.
Though the information wrenched from Abu Zubayda "stopped terrorist attacks and saved lives," Kiriakou said he opposes waterboarding.
"Now after after all these years, time has passed, and we're more on our feet in this fight against al Qaeda, and I think it's unnecessary," he said.
In a separate CNN interview, Kiriakou said the Justice Department and National Security Council reportedly approved waterboarding and other "alternative" interrogation techniques in June 2002.
"It was a policy decision that came down from the White House," he said.
Despite the executive blessing, Kiriakou and other agents were conflicted over whether to learn the technique, he said.
"One senior officer said to me that this is something you really have to think deeply about," the former agent said, adding he "struggled with it morally."
Kiriakou conceded his position might be hypocritical and said that the technique was useful -- even if he wanted to distance himself from it.
"Waterboarding was an important technique, and some of these other techniques were important in collecting the information," he said. "But I personally didn't want to do it. I didn't think it was right in the long run, and I didn't want to be associated with it."
As for the tapes of the interrogations, Kiriakou -- who claims neither he nor the other CIA agents realized they were being recorded during the Abu Zubayda interrogation -- said he disagrees with the decision to destroy the tapes.
"I don't see the reason to destroy them," Kiriakou said. "There's a possibility that they could be used in a criminal investigation, and frankly, for the historical record, I think it's important to have things like that maintained."
The Justice Department and CIA have announced a preliminary inquiry into the matter. Hayden, the CIA director, is slated to go before congressional committees Tuesday and Wednesday.
Hayden has said the CIA destroyed the tapes "only after it was determined they were no longer of intelligence value and not relevant to any internal, legislative or judicial inquiries."
Congressional leaders said they were never properly notified about the decision. E-mail to a friend
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The stage always seems to be centered around the well-being of the terrorist. This story is a little different. To the extent that the issue has become more of a PC stepping ground, the subject is hard to broach. Is it an all or none issue? For high and Mid-level terrorist leaders waterboarding has certainly provided actionable intelligence. The problem with the positive eddects of waterboarding is that they cannot be seen to be appreciated. When was the last time you witnessed a terrorist event not take place because of such actionable intelligence gathered by waterboarding?
Its a practice that certainly puts a temorary strain on the body, no doubt about that.
But what about solitary confinement? Just imagine yourself in a very small room with extremely little or no light 23 hours a day for weeks on end? Is this not taxing on the mind?
So the question ultimately becomes what strains do we allow people to endure. Waterboarding, contrary to popular belief is not as taxing on the body as probably imagined. Now take into account that every year tens of thousands of new recruits enter the military. And at least for the Army and Air Force, the training requires a familiarization with a protective mask (gas mask). This training takes place inside a sealed room. CS gas is released (essentially the stuff they use for riots). Ive been in rooms where this stuff has been so thick you can barely see the person next to you. After testing the mask, its time to take it off (its a confidence measure in the equiptment thats being fostered). Ive personally endured this for a few minutes (2-4). This experience is far longer than waterboarding and extremely taxing on the body. A CS chamber does not only restrict breathing, but there is a burning sensation on the skin, as well as water exiting from every opening on the face. It essentially feels like someone has wrapped a string around the chest several times. When you are released from the chamber the chocking and watering effects remain for a good 45 seconds to a minute in a half. Waterboarding by comparison really doesnt compare. The whole orderal lasts seconds. Now I find it Ironic that are people are going through the training that they do to deal with these types of people, who are coddled to the point that we are not able to make them uncomfortable.
Although I personally support waterboarding as a tecnique, I so surmise that it should be judiciously used. I would reserve it only for high and mid level Al-Queda leaders (which is proably about 2% of the terrorists that we catch) and the procedure itself should be regulated, both in terms of time and procedure.
I tend to think most people jump overboard before considering that the inelligence community wants real intelligence. These guys have been working the field for decades and realize that people can only be pushed so far before they just start saying anything to try to appease the other party. And carrots used aside from sticks. In some cases you can put a Coke and a donut in front of these guys and with a promise for a window cell. Other times it is more difficult, and so the person has to be made uncomfortable. Id advocate for a judicial expansion under the FISA court to mitigate any possible dangers. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 5:00:30 PM | im just glad im not c.i.a. i would have just stuck his head in boiling water.
but then again i am one of those freakin republican conservatives that everyone hates these days. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 5:06:30 PM |
So the question ultimately becomes what strains do we allow people to endure.
From the article:
but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.
Your own source answered that question for you. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 6:32:03 PM | mungo using the term "we" I mean we as a society. This agent isnt going to be making the decesion himself.
And as for losing souls, its waterboarding- esentially these peole are made uncomfortable for about 40 seconds- and thats it. Its instilling fear, its not like they are drilling holes in people. My earlier premise makes a comparison to this.
If you watch the cnn video the agent goes into what actually happens. There is a medic/doctor who is monitors the event. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 7:28:23 PM | | If you want to fight terror, you have to be prepared to inconvenience the people who bomb, kidnap, decapitate and murder civilians and soldiers. Those who want to treat terrorists with kid gloves are the ones who complain the loudest when the intelligence community is caught flat footed by terrorist attacks. You can't have it both ways. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 7:34:25 PM |
mungo using the term "we" I mean we as a society.
Yes, I know, it's the reason I quoted that line.
The quote below still answers the question.
but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 7:51:53 PM | we’re involved in a pre emptive war now you want to permit waterboarding? what next...?
in this time of ignoring the Geneva Conventions and the president’s use of signing statements to usurp basic human rights laws in our own country, it is disgusting to see how some, want to endorse torture...
what exactly do you see America evolving into...?
Senator McCain said it best…
“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak, said McCain after a campaign stop at Dordt College.
People who have worn the uniform and had the experience know that this is a terrible and odious practice and should never be condoned in the U.S. We are a better nation than that.
No waterboarding, period”. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 9:30:42 PM | To the extent that it is not needed, it shoudnt be used- and only reserved for the selective few who we need info from. I would never advocate using it for the street fighters, to keep it from being overused and besides they tend not to offer substancial intelligence. You say its so horrible, but what actually comes of it? It has never decribed as painful. Its meant to stress people out, just like solitary confinment or extreme light does to people. Im sure if you asked those people in solitary confinement in the US prison system if they would rather endure 20 seconds of waterboarding or a week in solitary confinment- they'd probably take waterboarding.
Look I already offered the comparision between waterboarding and the CS chamber the armed forces personel go through.
I dont want to hear about people complain about the intelligence community if there is another attack. You people are so quick to tie the hands of the intelligence community and then expect magic. To what extend is this going to continue with further tieing the hands of these intel guys. Next solitary confinment will be challenged. Or perhaps the taliban must be afforded congical visits?
Edisto, insted of running with these soundbites tell me specifically what you have a problem with. What aspects? Sholting out catch words like "torture" only keeps a real conversation taking place on the manner. Likewise by making comparisons to Pol Pot that do not fit only makes it a hush subject to speak about. Here is the difference with Pol Pot- that tecnique was probably the lightest of tecniques that he used. And Id imagine he probably for more than 40 seconds. Would it be a fair comparison if I said: If you have ever watched daffy duck then you must be like Kim Jong Ill, because he has watched daffy duck too?
Too many people fear the negative connotation rather than the subject itself. And I'm sure you imagine it being used widespread 24-7 in the intelligence community. Its just not the case. And all because I personally dont see a problem with the CIA using it, the former does not mean that I would advocate the military using it. By contrast I am against the military using it. | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 12 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 10:13:56 PM | ^^^^^^
waterboarding by the US has never been allowed, so it’s not as if this technique is no longer being accepted, it’s NEVER been accepted…
when a Vietnamese soldier used waterboarding against American soldiers he was court-martialed by the US military …how can we now condone something that we found repulsive and reprehensible not that long ago?
internationally, whether it’s the military or the CIA, waterboarding can be considered a war crime
what specifically do I have a problem with?…
a technique that simulates death, is not merely an “alternative interrogation practice” as the president likes to call it…
my issue with waterboarding ...?
it’s called man’s inhumanity to man, that’s why the Geneva Conventions are so important in this argument, if mankind MUST accept war, then at least there must be some guidelines, some rules to this horrific “game”, if, and when you stop following the rules, and there are no restrictions then the world will be on the brink of annihilation, think about it, why is the US concerned about Iran’s ability to make nuclear weapons? because there’s a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and Iran has signed that treaty, the treaty defines the “rules” that Iran must follow, if you want Iran to adhere to the rules, then the US must also follow international rules, bending the rules would be a nightmare scenario which may, in the short-term make things appear better, but in the long-term, it would prove to be a very, very bad decision… | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 10:37:05 PM | | The problem with us using anything remotely related to torture, is that we are supposed to be the good guys. We are supposed to be fighting for freedom for all, human rights for everyone, a world without torture. How can we be the shinning beacon of freedom, when we resort to the very same tactics that makes the otherside evil? This is not the path our country should be taking. | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 14 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/11/2007 10:57:57 PM | CIA damage control that's all, with the fiasco of some of the tapes depicting torture being destroying and some back tracking, the word is "plant" that's all.
The interview on abc was so contrived and stunk of BS, well rehearsed indeed. Claiming that Muslims hate America more then they love life itself, making references to WW2 German P.O.Ws (just to stir that pot).
The funniest quote is "Because we're American's and we're better than that", a complete lie and obviously not the case, Americans have been supporting and doing this for years, no false justification (blame it all on anger and claim there we're only two people it was ever done to) from a CIA actor is going to change that.
It’s torture plain and simple, and it has caused the USA a huge amount of damage that will incite the people defending themselves against invasion to carry on the fight.
Though I suppose this is basically the USA telling all it's enemies to torture it's troops as much as they can when they catch them I suppose ......... the go on TV and deny doing it, or claim that because it's in your countries interests that it's OK.
Personally I'm going with the Geneva Convention on that one, opposed to the American approach. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:16:02 AM | If people were tried and sentenced for doing it to Allied troops in WW2, then there's your answer. Those people probably got information that "saved lives" , too. 
My standard is anything that you do, you view through a very precise "golden rule". If you turned on a TV set now, and saw one of your country's service men being treated in this manner by another government would you get angry, or not ?
In this case, were I to see an American, Canadian , or European soldier (or citizen) having this done to him/her , I'd be outraged.
You lead by setting the moral example, not be descending to your enemy's level.
We could probably save a lot more lives using this technique every single day in our justice systems. Who needs trials ? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:25:52 AM | I am one of those people who did a drastic turn of opinion on this.
After 9-11 when our Government officials claimed "use any means necessary to obtain information", I was like "Hell yeah!"
But after further review and some internal questions things don't sit right.
We are suppose to be a nation of freedoms and rights. Remember...A beacon for civilization.
You cannot perform torture like this and be this nation of freedom and rights. They are polar extremes. If we really want to be this beacon of freedoms for civilization we need to act civilized and be humane. That means no torture and due process.
It means transparency and review...things we are sorley lacking.
This whole destruction of tapes, and now this guy comming out is just covering of ones asses. It stinks because I can smell it from here. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 9:05:02 AM | | i pose this question to everyboby , if somebody had info that would save your childs life would u then want it done.i bet every body that bashes it would probably answer yes to my question, its that or let your child die, tough choice when its acutally u having to make the call,i dont advocate torture, to me this is not torture, also dont the people that carry it out have it done to them during training, and if yes wheres the outrage on that , do u people not care about that, cant have both ways | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 9:35:08 AM |
i pose this question to everyboby , if somebody had info that would save your childs life would u then want it done.
Just because I'd do something to save my childs life, doesn't indicate that it's a good government practice. It's probably the worst sort of emotional appeal you can make. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 9:47:48 AM |
i pose this question to everyboby , if somebody had info that would save your childs life would u then want it done.i bet every body that bashes it would probably answer yes to my question, its that or let your child die, tough choice when its acutally u having to make the call...
A contrived hypothetical situation that attempts to strong-arm someone into agreeing with you... as Charles has pointed out, this is an appeal to emotions fallacy. You might as well ask Pat Robertson if he would have sex with a gay man to save his child's life.
This is why emotional detachment is important in high stress, high stakes situations, and why vigilanteism can be so dangerous. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 10:20:08 AM | As far as Americans prosecuting others for waterboarding, the simplified statement is a misnomer. Americans have procesucuted others for torture and have included waterboarding in the argument (to characterize the enemy). But these people who were tried were not exclusively tried for waterboarding. Waterboarding was adressed(because it was excessively used) amd was the lesser of the charges
As for citing article 3- thats if you believe waterboarding in itself is torture (I certainly believe excessive use is torture). But, article 3 does not say "waterboarding is a torture not a tecnique".
Personally, I share the same concerns with many of you with the image that waterboarding can potentially have. Would I advocate widespread use? Absolutely not. In fact, if allowed, should only be allowed in a very small percentage of high level detainees. Im talking about a very low percentage of a single percent (not all Al-Queda high level operatives who themselves are a very small percent of those caught will be resistant to the extent that the tecnique may be needed) And I only advocate its use within the CIA, and nowhere else.
Very limited use (except on perhaps a woman- it should never be used just because of the cultural weight even in the most repressive countries) is not an image problem. Waterboarding simply does not make it to the propagada tapes.
Waterboarding, as a tecnique is overblown and demonized. No water enters the mouth. It an x number of seconds that this pychologically burdens a person. And thats it. End of story. Its pychologically burdensome and uncomfortable. Not painful and very short.
The guidlines could for the use could be made stringent and the oversight strong.
I think that this issue, like most others comes down to different understandings of the context of regulations that deal with torture. Torture is not defined as making one feel uncomfortable. The line of reasoning that says a person should not endure any level of being uncomfortable is an extreme. This interpretation as applied to other values, like our bill of rights would permit people to shout fire in a movie theatre and give people the right to bear arsenals . Few things are meant to be absolutes- such as Life, Liberty, and property (before due process of law is applied).
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 22 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 10:39:25 AM |
You lead by setting the moral example, not be descending to your enemy's level.
Indeed, I don't believe you can "beat/win/conquer" an enemy (how ever that is defined seeing as the invasion is against a skewed lied about version of a religious ideology and a war on "causing fear ".... by doing just that and worse) by becoming them or acting like them.
In this case, were I to see an American, Canadian , or European soldier (or citizen) having this done to him/her , I'd be outraged.
I'm not a fan of it being done to anyone. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 10:41:50 AM | A contrived hypothetical situation that attempts to strong-arm someone into agreeing with you... as Charles has pointed out, this is an appeal to emotions fallacy
first of all iam not strong arming anybody, its just a question,not all but some times the info they get could save someone elses child. its not a contrived question either it does have a plauseable chance of playing out in the real world, it may have already,point taken about detachment, but i still ask the same question, if its your kid would you be detached,well its somebodys kids is it not. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 11:04:45 AM | | Sorry, that's like when Dukakis was asked if he'd want someone who killed his wife executed. Of course you'd want to see your wife's killer executed, but that's not the basis of public policy. The use of torture does more harm than good - the intelligence you get is unreliable and the damage to you in terms of giving terrorist recruiters a propoganda tool is too strong. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 11:26:16 AM | | in my opinion its not torture, i dont think they need any more propoganda anyway, besides if you do u can just make something up, keep in mind it does not need to be true to be affective, just my opinion | |
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