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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/12/2007 1:09:38 PM | (If this thread has been around before, I apologize.. tried searching for it but couldn't find anything.) I have dated multiple religious people or have met multiple religious people in my life. Now, I understand that religion is an ideal good, but why are all of the people that I have met bad people? My ex is a very religious person. She has the christian "fish" on her car and she goes to church daily. Her family is also religious... But she cheated on me Ran me into debt Broke up with me for someone else who was going to leave his wife for her She was an alcoholic She slept around She lied all the time and made up stories She was a drama queen and she fed off of it, it seemed like
Other people I have met who are religious are usually against homosexuals, or are racists, or think that all mentally ill people deserve to die and go to hell. Or that if you don't follow their religion your going straight to hell.
This isn't ment as a religious bashing thread, more so of a "Why are some, or all the religious people I have met so cruel, mean, and disheartening" and when I say that I myself am Athiest, they think im the scum of the world because I choose to not believe in a higher power, but i'm a good person. I never cheat, I don't lie, if someone needs help, I help them out.
I'm just fairly confused here, if anyone can help me out with this... it would be awesome! Thanks.
And
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/12/2007 2:46:21 PM | Sounds to me like these women are hypocrites ... not all religious people are ... although a lot will pick and choose what rules suit them at the time ... As to their justification for their actions ... who knows ??? | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/13/2007 9:08:12 PM | | That's just it, the people you refer to are "religious", but are not "Christian". There's a difference. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/15/2007 10:05:31 PM | | don't worry about it, that way your not confused.people are gonna think whatever they want about you, there is no way your gonna change their opinion. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/16/2007 5:54:06 AM | Every human being ever placed on earth sins. There are big sins and little sins, but we all do it because God gave us freedom of choice to try to be good or to give in to temptations placed in our hearts by Satan.
You can be very religious and very Christian and still be the worst human in the world in some people's eyes.
Religious people and Christians for that matter are supposed to be trying to cut down on sinning. But, the problem is we all sin. We pray that we might get better; we try not to; but we still do it. That is why Christ completed the ultimate act of love - to love us unconditionally and to die for us so that we might be able to have a chance of heaven so long as we believe and we try..... doesn't mean we can actually do it (not sin). | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/16/2007 10:51:12 PM | so, OP, you start with "religious" people but soon qualify it with the "fish", meaning Christians. So, tell us something positive about christians.
The times are interesting to say the least... what was right will be wrong, what was good will be bad. Prophetic words found in the bible, and it seems that time has arrived.
An interesting observation. Various groups, for various reasons hate the principles and traditions of our nation. They can't destroy us in a frontal attack so they use our own laws, the Constitution, to slowly take apart exactly what made this nation great.
Equally interesting, christians have a book of laws, rules, a consitution if you will to which they are to measure themselves and improve their "selfs" and hopefully the lives of those around them. Naturally, influenced by the world around them and their own human nature, they constantly fail. Along come the non-believers and use those same principles to judge and condemn, and even destroy christians. But they wail and complain that they shouldn't be called up on their failures. It's just a different form of hypocrosy.
Religious or not, both types fail for whatever reasons, be it social upbringing, mental health problems, physical illness, and sometimes just plain bad choices. Believers and non believers all. Next time your in your car or in a store and you see someone being rude, obnoxious, disrespectful, or acting in some other anti-social behavior... will you instantly label that person religious because they acted that way? Just because people go to church doesn't make them saints... just because people are athiests and do good doesn't make them saints either.
The peace of God be with you OP, whether you believe in Him or not, and with all of us in these interesting times.
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/26/2007 11:19:53 PM | I stepped away from religion years ago. I stayed secular for a number of years, then I discovered Paganism. This is the oldest religion on the planet. From Paganism came all religions...up to and including Christianity. Every known religion on this planet has its roots in Paganism.
I walked away from Christianity because I became very tired of the rules and regulations there. "You must do this!" "You can't do that!" I'm a free thinker and these rules were stopping me from free thinking. I was accused of being a sinner because I believed there could be life on other planets outside of our solar system. I was ORDERED by my minister to get down on my knees and beg God for forgiveness. That's the day I walked away from it.
As a Pagan...I've heard it all! I worship the Devil. WRONG! I make small animal sacrifices. WRONG! The best one was: I drink goats blood! I was told by a hard core Christian that his minister had said that all Pagans drank goats blood. WRONG! That minister needs to get a grip on reality!
Paganism is the religion for free thinkers. That's why I'm there! | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/29/2007 12:47:17 PM |
Paganism is the religion for free thinkers
the chicken and the egg? Religion and ritual seems to so often be confused with faith. I too walked away from "Christianity" at a young age because of how it was displayed or reflected by humans. I read about other "religions" and tried various beliefs and non-beliefs. Eventually, I went thru some dark (supernatural) experiences. Obviously that doesn't happen to everyone, ok? I reached a point in my life where I went back to the "Holy Word" and began to have an understanding about the "spiritual" world. In my case, when I finally felt that I needed better direction, I again experienced a life changing moment that I choose to call "God" calling my name and feeling his touch, literally. There were no miraculous healings, gifts, tongues or drastic changes in my life, just an affirmation about the direction I should take and a new understanding and relationship. A new way of "thinking" and it continues everyday.
I've always wondered, questioned perhaps, if God established a relationship of faith with Adam and Eve, and they failed to keep their end of it, then could they then have turned to "Animism" as a substitute faith? (Perhaps out of guilt or resentment). Could that have been the first "Pagan" religion? Would that have been carried on by the jealous Cain after he slew Abel? Generations later all that free thinking had led to such confusion that God decided to let it go to it's extreme and allowed (or caused) the "tower of babble" event? Then each language re-interpreted paganism to suit their own free thinking. All the while God giving each choice... and my thoughts go on and on.
What I've learned from my readings and personal experience is that I am free to think anything I want as a Christian, or as a pagan. However, the "rules" and "laws" of my faith are meant for ME to live by, and when done so, helps to make my world, and yours, that much better (trust me on that). It's the principles that matter, not the principals.
I often wonder, when I'm out and about, and I see someone do a kind act, or an unkind act... are they Christian or pagan? Heheheh! Labels! How ridiculous! We all fail, Christian, pagan or otherwise. We run around priding ourselves on our value system while bashing the other with theirs, now that makes a lot of sense. I'd call that false pride for starters.
I'm a free thinker too... and after having lived, learned and experienced, and having given it a lot of thinking, I've chosen... I don't have to judge or condemn anyone for their choice, that will happen in the ever-after. And wouldn't THAT make for another interesting thread? Hehehehe
God Bless everyone, yes even you pagans and Happy New Year everyone...  | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/29/2007 1:23:12 PM | As a Pagan...we are taught that we will not make fun of someone else's religion, nor will we say bad things about it. Religion is an individual choice and we, as Humans are free to choose what we believe in. As Pagans, we can't and won't ridicule anyone on their choice. But we can sure take flack from other's about our choice! No offense meant here, but the Christians are very good at tossing flack at us. We seem to be their "kicking post".
I respect all of any religion. I have Jewish friends; Muslim friends; Catholic friends and yes...I even have Christian friends! We all get along ok! We all understand our individual beliefs and respect them. My Christian friends didn't know that from my religion came theirs. Many don't know this, but from Paganism came ALL religions!
Discussing religion can be a touchy subject and one NEVER wants to discuss it closed minded. One must be open minded and respect the thoughts and feelings of others. I have discussed my religion with many and there was only a few times that I was discussing with a closed minded person.
And those are my thoughts on this. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/29/2007 7:07:20 PM |
Christians are very good at tossing flack at us
hmm, let's see when was the last time I saw a pagan church burned to the ground, or pagan symbols banned from the town square, or newsprint, radio and t.v. ridicule pagans?
Christian friends didn't know that from my religion came theirs
sure, and snow white finally met prince charming. I guess it depends on who's writing we want to believe huh? You're so adamant you're starting to sound fundamentalist. I'm not trying to be rude, but please friend... get a grip.
One must be open minded and respect the thoughts and feelings of others
unless of course they are Christians who really believe in their faith and are willing to stand up for it. Christians can be understanding and accepting of others, even tolerant of closed minded pagans. It doesn't mean they are hateful, they are actually practicing their faith and leaving the door open...
I have Jewish friends; Muslim friends; Catholic friends and yes...I even have Christian friends
oh my, how magnanimous of you... it reminded me of a previous statement I used to hear during the civil rights days... I have many negro, mexican, indian friends, aren't I great!
7 truthfully, I find this humorous and I know you are being serious but the more you insist on your rightesnous the more fundamentalist you sound. What was the title of this forum post? oh yeah... alrighty then, as you were.
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/30/2007 9:04:55 AM | | I thank you, sir, for your timely remarks...a couple of which I found rude and insulting. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/30/2007 11:28:05 AM |
rude and insulting
my pleasure sir, don't be so sensitive though, you're only expressing your opinion about religion and some christian's behaviors, and I'm doing the same. We're having a dialogue not a bashing contest. If the heat is too much for you, don't get in the water. I'm not responding to insult or be rude... if my impressions and remarks "confuse" you, then we've accomplished the premise of this posting, it seems.
One must be careful of where one throws stones, why not throw petals instead, we'd make this world much nicer to live in... have a happy new year.
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/30/2007 11:50:02 AM | I think its funny Lucy now that we are talking about confusing faith:
Christianity actually is very nice to Paganism that it kept some of its Pagan holidays like the Easter Bunny and Easter Eggs in its ritual and even kept its holidays in place of Pagan Holidays. Not to mention the catholic church has the cult of saints which as a transitioning tool for Roman pagans who had to tackle to concept of one god.
My point is this: Two Hawks, your not that far off, infact dead close when you say that Paganism is the roots of all modern faith. However Judaism to my knowledge has no Pagan roots though for a time the Jewish people struggle with Phoenician pagan cults but that wasnt prior to Jehovah revealing himself as God. No pagan faith till Judaism held accountability in their faith as could be seen in a holy book or record. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/30/2007 12:11:12 PM | good post Seattle... on topic
and I agree with your thoughts, the faith was coopted by the state and corrupted to bring in the masses and yadda yadda yadda... heheheh
but the origins came from that ancient faith you mention, and I guess in the end it's a matter of choice isn't it? What we choose to accept, believe and how we choose to practice or live it? Appreciate your discussion input... have a safe holiday. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/31/2007 1:21:25 PM | To get back to the original issue and off of the pagans vs Christians:
This isn't ment as a religious bashing thread, more so of a "Why are some, or all the religious people I have met so cruel, mean, and disheartening" and when I say that I myself am Athiest, they think im the scum of the world because I choose to not believe in a higher power, but i'm a good person. I never cheat, I don't lie, if someone needs help, I help them out. I'm just fairly confused here, if anyone can help me out with this... it would be awesome! Thanks.
Don't confuse the failings of the person for the failings of the group with which they self-identify. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, doesn't mean they are a "good" Christian or follow the teachings of Christ. Further, realize that a person who lacks integrity will also lack the courage to take responsibility for their own failings. Psychology calls this behavior projection.
"I didn't cheat, he seduced me. It wasn't my fault I had to look outside the relationship, he didn't treat me the way I deserved" and so on.
In the extreme form, this will manifest in the "burn all heritics" mentality. Someone who "hates racism" still hates. Someone who "hates war" still hates. They project it outwards because they lack the courage to see it in themselves. You can choose chocolate without hating vanilla. You can choose peace without hating war. The people you are talking about, apparently, do not share that virtue.
They are using the religion as a pretext, and excuse, a shield behind which to hide their own cowardice and hate and lack of integrity. Such a false Christian in no way shape or form reduced or illegitimized the kindness and love that flowed from Mother Theresa any more than my own terrible skills in high-school physics invalidated Einstein's work. For instance.
Unfortunately, because religions have been the arbiters of morality for a great deal of human history they are very effective when used in this non-integrous manner. So effective that many well-intentioned people, like yourself, who recognize the wrongness of the behavior are unable to separate the religion from the idiots who are simply hiding behind the religion. It only confounds things that those who really ought to know better, who sit in positions of authority in the religions of the world, behave in this same nonsense themselves.
You can find the best description of the psychology of it I've ever seen in Joseph Campbell's book the Power of Myth. In it he mentions being called to Thailand to help record talks between the Buddhists and Catholics who had been fighting each other. The King called monks and priests from both religions to the capital and held talks to try and resolve things. The talks eventually bogged down into theological debate rather than social. Campbell noticed that the priests on both sides were unable to find common ground. The monks were unable to find grounds for difference. He started circulating and asking pointed questions and eventually realized that the monks had all had personal spiritual experinces and realized that the words of their respective saints had been approximations of that common experience which exists beyond words. The monks would say, "hey, that's exactly how it felt to me too" in response to each other's holy books. The priests, who had no such experience, would fixate on the exact words written down and they argued over semantics.
I hope you can see how someone who has no personal experience to draw upon could find any little tiny thing a threat to their faith. When they project their own doubt out onto the believers of another religion (or onto you and others who don't follow any religion) instead of realising that they are afraid because of their own doubt and lack of faith, they are not upholding the teachings of their religion. They are simply afraid and hiding behind their religion while using it as a club to whack at the mirror that revealed the presence of their fear to them.
This in no way is meant to excuse the behavior you have observed, simply explain what is going on inside the head of the people who display it. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 12/31/2007 5:32:55 PM | "she cheated on me Ran me into debt Broke up with me for someone else who was going to leave his wife for her She was an alcoholic She slept around She lied all the time and made up stories She was a drama queen and she fed off of it"
I had an ex like that. Keyword, Had. Her parents were just as you described hers as well. The bottom line is that I will never date a religious woman ever again. Ever. In my mind, anyone who believes in fictional characters has a lot of growing up to do.
Hehe, you described my ex trailer-trash-chick to a nearly perfect T! Instead of alcoholism it was prescription drugs that her and her mother shared. I guess there was no sleeping around either but damn, to have all of those wonderful traits wrapped up into one package... damn what a mess! | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/1/2008 2:30:21 AM | Seattle Artist Said: My point is this: Two Hawks, your not that far off, infact dead close when you say that Paganism is the roots of all modern faith. However Judaism to my knowledge has no Pagan roots though for a time the Jewish people struggle with Phoenician pagan cults but that wasnt prior to Jehovah revealing himself as God. No pagan faith till Judaism held accountability in their faith as could be seen in a holy book or record. *************************************************************************** Paganism IS the root of most, if not all religions. In our early days on the planet there was only one religion and that was Paganism. As we branched out and grew and became less tribal...Holymen started forming new religions based on Paganism. Stories from Pagan writings were brought into the new religion....changed slightly to fit and professed as being original from the new religion. Stories were also taken from other cultures and brought into the new religion. A good for instance on that is the story of Moses. This came from an Assyrian fable of 2750 BC concerning a character by the name of Mises.
Another thing a lot of people don't know is....one of the original symbols for religions was the Swastika. This was NOT an invention of Nazi Germany. The Swastika was an original, universal symbol of all religions. The word "Swastika" is from an old ancient Sanskrit language and is actually two words run together. "Swa" means "all". "Stika" means "is good" So "Swastika" means "all is good". Unfortunately Nazi Germany took that and turned it into a symbol of evil.
So...most, if not all religions had their beginnings in Paganism. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/22/2008 11:38:41 AM | | Only the sinner needs religion. Dump her if she holds it so dear. You don't need that black magic in your life anymore. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/22/2008 11:48:03 AM | Two Hawks Takes theTalking Stick:
Everyone has to believe in something! I believe I'll have another beer!
Two Hawks laughs and passes the Talking Stick | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/23/2008 11:45:15 PM | ok so you have kinda answered you own question . religion doesn’t make someone a good person . I mean look at all the religious figures the people who are suppose to represent god . they have done very bad things to children . but really look for someone who has some of the same interests . don’t judge people by what god if any they believe in .
Josh | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/27/2008 12:58:40 AM | sounds like my first college roommate. Sluts for Jesus, then so much more. I dropped out, had a baby, did the vaudeville curcuit, wrote home eventually You get the picture Listen to your own heart when you interact with these folks Imagine Brigid and the 9 later nuns. It's nice to listen nurture and ignite revolution PB | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/27/2008 11:50:32 AM | I always have serious reservations about anyone who is GUNG-HO on their religion (like Tom Cruise) - there are so many religions out there, and people have chosen whatever they belong to for personal reasons. There's a big difference between being devout and being fanatical. I was raised Catholic, although I am one of many who "left the church" many many years ago. My son has chosen Catholicism - he was not raised Catholic, but his wife is and he went ahead and took the classes, etc. goes to church every Sunday, and he enjoys it, and I say, good for him!
Personally? I don't think any religion is "better" than any other religion. I like the basic premise of all religions, which is the golden rule - do unto others, etc., and that's how I try to live - without benefit of a structured religion. I try to avoid people who try to convert others - Answering questions and satisfying curiousity is one thing, recruitment is another. One should be proud of the religion they belong to, if you're not, you should question yourself about belonging. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/29/2008 1:39:10 AM |
That's just it, the people you refer to are "religious", but are not "Christian". There's a difference.
I'd say they're Religious, Christian, and very amoral. | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/29/2008 8:58:19 AM | I have dated multiple religious people or have met multiple religious people in my life. Now, I understand that religion is an ideal good, but why are all of the people that I have met bad people?
Religious people would have you believe that religion, or god, or fear of eternal punishment are NEEDED to make a person 'good' or 'bad', but that's just wrong. Personally, if the only reason someone isn't stealing or killing or such is because they fear retaliation from their god, THEY SCARE ME.
Others will say that the bible or [insert other religious text here] is NEEDED in order for people to know how to live a good life. This isn't true at all. "Good" and "bad" are social constructs made by societies and refined by personal experience on an individual basis.
Many things that USED to be 'good' are now 'bad': Slavery Stoning women Beating (even killing) disobedient children women being property burning witches
and other things that USED to be 'bad' are now 'good': women having jobs showing ankles marrying for love women and gays as heads of churches
Basically, "bad" and "good" are 100% disconnected from the idea of "religion". People have done evil things in the name of religion and unbelievers have done great things without evoking any gods.
It sounds like the OP is under the illusion that a religious woman means she is a good women.
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Confused about religion Posted: 1/29/2008 10:03:20 PM |
This isn't true at all. "Good" and "bad" are social constructs made by societies and refined by personal experience on an individual basis. Not quite. That is the very essence of moral relativism. A highly dubious philosophy which is incapable of providing an argument as to why its followers shouldn't just be killed for fun:
Another critique of moral relativism which falls into this category postulates that anyone who claims that no moral absolutes exist undermines their ability to justify their own existence. According to this argument, if a moral relativist is intellectually honest, they have no right to claim that they should remain unharmed by other individuals who adhere to a subjectively determined or culturally-bound moral theory which does not regard causing harm to others, or at least moral relativists, as wrong. In this sense, it is difficult for a moral relativist to hold that they have a right to exist (and in doing so, formulate their own set of moral values) in the first place. Just as they are unable to argue that slavery, the Holocaust, etc. are ultimately immoral, moral relativists are unable to argue that the discontinuation of their own lives at the hands of another individual (who adheres to a different set of values) would be ultimately immoral, either. They can claim that it is wrong in the sense of being against their moral code, but what is important here is the behaviour of the attacker; there is no necessary reason why their attacker should be swayed by someone else's personal or cultural beliefs. In this sense, it is argued, moral relativists suffer from an inability to defend their own interests, regardless of their own moral code.

It also necessarily supports its own falseness. If all beliefs are equal, than the belief in relativism's falseness is assured by relativism itself:
Relativism is sometimes identified (usually by its critics) as the thesis that all points of view are equally valid. In ethics, this amounts to saying that all moralities are equally good; in epistemology it implies that all beliefs, or belief systems, are equally true. Critics of relativism typically dismiss such views as incoherent since they imply the validity even of the view that relativism is false. They also charge that such views are pernicious since they undermine the enterprise of trying to improve our ways of thinking. Perhaps because relativism is associated with such views, few philosophers are willing to describe themselves as relativists.
But in the end what it amounts to, is when the parent asks the child, "if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?" The relativist is the one who says "yes".
Now, with that said, I completely agree with the statement that the presence of religion does not assure moral behavior, nor does the absence. I agree completely that people have done evil things in the name of religion and unbelievers have done great things without evoking any gods. Unbelievers have also done evil things, and religious people have done great things. It is the caliber of the person that counts, not the person's beliefs.
Most of the teachers who founded religions gave good advice for living together and treating other people well. A great many of their followers have thrown this out. As I've said before, the fact that the Nazis claimed to be Christian in no way invalidates the incredible compassion and selfless love of Mother Theresa any more than my own pathetic skills at math invalidate Albert Einstein's work. The fact that some nihilist wants to justify pedophilia with the argument that "morals and ethics are nothing more than what we agree they are" in no way invalidates the good done by hundreds of secular charities.
Don't make heroes or villains of either religionists or atheists based solely on that criteria. | |
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