| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 12/23/2007 7:08:16 AM | There are two questions to consider when deciding whether to stop welcoming illegal aliens. First, do we even need the flow of labor that illegal immigration represents? And second, whatever immigration policy we do adopt, can it be enforced if we make it easy to live here illegally, as we do now?
The answer to both questions is No.
Story
Point/Counterpoint: Real Reform Can Fix Immigration
There is no economic need for foreign labor, legal or illegal. There are an estimated 12 million illegal aliens in the United States, with perhaps 7 million of them in the labor market — either working or actively looking for work. But contrary to myths about "jobs Americans won't do," there is no major job category that is dominated by these illegal workers. The Census Bureau groups all jobs in the country into 473 categories, and in 2003-2004, only three small categories had even the tiniest majority of immigrant workers, legal and illegal. The large majority of America's taxi drivers, housekeepers, janitors, dishwashers, landscapers and construction laborers are native-born Americans.
More generally, the supporters of illegal immigration claim that low-skilled labor is a precious resource, like oil, and because we're running out of it at home, we have to import it from abroad. This, too, is false. On the contrary, immigration (legal and illegal) is actually crowding low-skilled Americans out of the labor market altogether. During the first half of this decade, the highest five-year period of immigration in our history, the percentage of working-age, native-born Americans without a high school degree who were in the labor force fell from 59 percent to 56 percent, and for those with only a high school degree, participation in the labor force fell from 78 percent to 75 percent. And American teenagers (aged 15 to 17) took an even bigger hit, seeing their labor force participation fall from 30 percent in 2000 to 24 percent in 2005. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 12/24/2007 2:04:12 PM | Being from south Texas I have seen the results of the invasion of illegals for years.What the whole country is starting to see we have lived with for years. What these people don't realize IF they had bothered to come into our country the right way it would be so much better for them. These people are hard workers and the biggest part are honest.(except for coming into our country illegally). They are used by the people who employ them,by friends that help them. These friends will help them get houses cash their checks (all for a percentage). If they came in legally they could not be done this way. Don't get me wrong I 'm not for illegal immigration at all. they come into our country illegally and take jobs from citizens. The border needs to be closed,our laws need to be enforced. All we're asking is if you want to come here do it the right way. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/1/2008 6:57:46 PM | I'll posit that there is no economic need and that they aren't a precious resource. I honestly don't know enough about those facts to make an argument on that one either way so I won't.
However, if you accept that labor is a resource or that people are a commodity, it becomes very easy to see why immigration is popular. It's simple supply and demand. At the cost that Americans are supplying their labor, industry just doesn't have the demand to hire all of them. However, they would like to have more laborers. So, they look for people who are willing to work for less. All manual labor is essentially the same, so there isn't any real difference if the work is an American HS grad, a Mexican adult, or a Chinese 5 year old. The less you can pay for the labor, the better off you are.
And even with minimum wage being around, Americans also tend to feel entitled to benefits, sick days, job security, and career advancement to a much greater degree. I'm not saying immigrants are unambitious, I'm just saying that jumping from horrid squalor to mere poverty can be a big deal. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/1/2008 8:15:02 PM | All manual labor is essentially the same,
You really have no idea how ignorant that statement is do you?
so there isn't any real difference if the work is an American HS grad, a Mexican adult, or a Chinese 5 year old. The less you can pay for the labor, the better off you are.
The guy that owns the company I work for is worth over a 1/4 Billion dollars. He's smart, he has several companies in the same industry and he dominates the market through sheer volume.
The company that I am working for is his "baby". It's the company he started out with (he had nothing when he began). This company is the only company that he has that is union, it's the only company he has where the guys make 1/3rd more than their counterparts in the other companies and guess what? We are more expensive per man hour but we do the job right, we do it on time and we make him MORE profit. So, you're theory of paying less makes you more is right out the window.
Aside from those facts all MANUAL labour is not the same. Any form of labouring will have it's specific skillsets, a good labourer is worth just as much as any skilled tradesman. Unfortunately it's all the unskilled bottom feeding migrant workers who are the same. We don't need more Migrant workers, we need RESPONSIBLE companies to employ and train the people they have. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 3:48:44 AM |
Posted By: captain nasa on 12/24/2007 10:04:12 PM
I 'm not for illegal immigration at all. they come into our country illegally and take jobs from citizens. .
the bigger problem is that the citizens who could have taken those jobs did prefer to
be sent to jail instead of earning their meals working
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 4:09:02 AM | hmm from what i heard it was the americans heading to mexico to take advantage of the cheap gas and booze
hmm maybe ya allneed to learn to accept your neighbors for all their good and bad points instead of acting like immature schoolkid playing in a sandbox | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 5:16:08 AM | Your right, Lucky. I misspoke. I meant that all unskilled manual labor is essentially the same. Lifting a box, digging a hole, pushing a cart, etc depend very little on which individual is doing the job. Likewise, any skill that can be easily learned (let's throw the line at 1 month on the job learning max) also depends very little on the individual doing the job. That means that modern factory work (as opposed to post-modern) doesn't care at all about the individual.
There are a number of skilled manual labor sets that cannot be easily replaced. Landscapers, for example take years to properly train. There are also plenty of skilled manual labor positions (like plumbers or auto mechanics) that make more money per hour than doctors or lawyers. I know and respect those people because I know I wouldn't be able to survive without their expertise. My error was that I stated the line to between manual labor/cubicle work instead of what I meant which was unskilled work/skilled work. I'm sorry about that.
But the bosses decision to pay you more money was a calculated effort. He found that if he pays you an extra 1/3 you produce more labor than if he fired you and replaced you with two people who work for 2/3 of what you do. And even if you may produce slightly less labor output, he has also insured that he has a reputation of being high paying, thus attracting more applicants which in turn means a higher quality or laborers in the future. He also has gained loyalty of his workers meaning he is less likely to lose money with someone he trained leaving. And from a pure business perspective, there are a number of people who are xenophobic, having a workforce that is not "full of immigrants" probably gets more business than he would otherwise. Because even if the lack of immigrants isn't an incentive, I doubt anyone will pay more because a company has immigrants.
It's all business, people aren't special. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 9:16:37 AM |
But contrary to myths about "jobs Americans won't do," there is no major job category that is dominated by these illegal workers. The Census Bureau groups all jobs in the country into 473 categories, and in 2003-2004, only three small categories had even the tiniest majority of immigrant workers, legal and illegal. The large majority of America's taxi drivers, housekeepers, janitors, dishwashers, landscapers and construction laborers are native-born Americans.
SERIOUSLY flawed data. Apparently they didn't take into account the California agriculture business, auto body shops & construction. I've worked in autobody in Ca & at least 80% of the workforce are illegals, which forces down wages for legal workers.
I even worked for Shelby for a while, one day they turned around & told me I was getting a 25% paycut immediatley because my wages were too high compared to the illegals. I walked.. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 11:57:12 AM | | Why is it always the illegal immigrant at fault? All they are doing is what anyone else would do in their position. Working hard to earn a crust. The fault is not with these people working for nextto nothing to feed their families. The problem is greedy bosses they would rather pay an illegal immigrant a pittance than a legal worker a decent humane salary. Why is that? Greed they want to squeeze every cent of profit they can. If you really want to stop illegal immigrant workers then hammer the greedy **stards hiring them. Make the punishment so high they can't afford to be caught. If there is no work for them they'll go elsewhere looking for work. Or alternatively keep on blaming the immigrants and it will never end. If I was in that situation I would do any work I could get for my family rather than see them starve and I suspect a number of you otherwise law abiding citizens would do the same for their families. So punish the greedy **stards hiring them not the poor **stards being exploited. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:40:30 PM |
If you really want to stop illegal immigrant workers then hammer the greedy **stards hiring them. Make the punishment so high they can't afford to be caught.
The current penalty/fine is $20,000 per worker, per day. Apparently the threat of $100K in fines for 5 days work isn't enough...
Of course, if the useless ****ers actually ENFORCED the damn laws we already have there wouldn't be a problem.. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:44:45 PM | The problem with punishing them for being greedy is that it's meddling more in supply and demand. The fact is, we have a mostly free economy. In a free economy, supply and demand will stabelize unemployment and wages. Unfortunately, Americans demand a higher standard of living than supply and demand would allow. To deal with that, we created minimum wage which (in addition to raising unemployment) causes the businesses to try and find a new way to get to the stable point. The danger of a fine is just another cost thrown into the equation.
Unfortunately, if you make the cost too high, then it makes more sense to just hire workers overseas and ship it hear. The current oil prices make that more difficult, but the more you raise minimum wage the more tempting it becomes. Stopping immigration into the country will encourage businesses to emigrate elsewhere.
The only way you could fix it would be to either have global economic standards that every single individual and business on the planet agrees to follow. The next most feasible option is completely shut down the borders of the United States, allowing nothing and no one in or out. That or we could somehow eliminate the human desire for possessions, enjoyment, friendship, love, etc. I suggest a crazy new religion. | |
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| The Fable. We Need Many Migrant Workers.
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:45:34 PM | | A free economy is driven by supply and demand. If you increase the illegal immigrants, then you increase the workers, and you increase the consumers. More workers means more demand for the same number of jobs, which means employers can pay lower wages. More consumers means more demand for the same goods and services, which means companies can charge higher prices. Ultimately, the people who benefit most are the companies. So more of the American GDP goes into the hands of the companies, and thus into the hands of the rich shareholders who own the companies. Rich get richer, poor get poorer. | |
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