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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/23/2007 3:02:51 PM | OK, so, I am starting a new topic to maybe not only suggest, but also show some facts that it is quite possible that illegal immigration is quite possibly not the only reason why American are losing so many jobs and maybe we should stop just blaming one side and look to both sides.
If you look at the website for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, they report that there are approximately between 10-12 million illegal immigrants in the US in 2005. That number has probably grown. They also report that in 1996, Dr. Donald Huddle, a Rice University economist estimated that they had displaced approximately 730,000 American Workers. Since the estimated amount of illegal immigrants has doubled in that time, it is reasonable to assume that the number of displaced American workers has also doubled, which would mean approximately 1,460,000. (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7443)
Now, if you look at several websites in regards to outsourcing, the numbers are all over the place, however, there are still a large amount of jobs lost there as well. Outsourcing Outrage.com states that 2,700,000 jobs have been outsourced since 2001. They go on to state that the University of California - Berkley estimates that 14,000,000 more jobs are vulnerable to being outsourced. (http://www.outsourceoutrage.com/facts/) According to the Economic Report for the President in 2004, it estimated that we would lose 2,200,000 jobs to outsourcing, but yet create 2,600,000, which seems quite lofty, but ok (which by the way those extra jobs could be used to offset job loss due to illegal immigration too, or so it would seem.) (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/13/opinion/main600351.shtmla) I give the president credit for being aggressive in creating jobs, but we still lost just about as many to outsourcing. A study of the Bureau of Labor Statistics stated in February of 2004 that since 2000, approximately 2,800,000 jobs had been lost and the broke it down as follows:
* Computers and Electronics: 455,000
* Textiles and Apparel: 395,000
* Machinery: 301,000
* Transportation Equipment: 297,000
* Fabricated Materials: 288,000
* Primary Metals: 154,000
* Electrical Equipment and Appliances: 135,000
* Plastics: 131,000
* Printing: 132,000
* Furniture: 107,000
To pull this all together, estimates are that illegal immigrants have displaced about 1.46 million American Workers, and outsourcing has cost the US between 2.2-2.8 million jobs, which at the high end is almost twice as much as illegal immigration. Now, I'm not going to go and claim that illegal immigration isn't a problem. I think there is a problem, however, I may disagree with you all on what may need to be done about it. But, it would seem to me that outsourcing is twice as costly to the American workforce than illegal immigration is, and it would seem to me that is a bigger problem than illegal immigration.
Why is it that we are focusing so much attention on illegal immigration when there is a bigger problem, or is outsourcing not a problem in yours eyes? Isn't a job a job, and however it is loss is a problem? Especially when it is being done through the justification of making a dollar?
Any thoughts in general, I'd love to hear it. Especially in concerns to the relationship between job loss due to illegal immigration and job loss due to outsourcing. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/23/2007 3:14:42 PM | But, it would seem to me that outsourcing is twice as costly to the American workforce than illegal immigration is, and it would seem to me that is a bigger problem than illegal immigration.
^^^^^^^
It is as you say.
Why is it that we are focusing so much attention on illegal immigration when there is a bigger problem, or is outsourcing not a problem in yours eyes?
^^^^^^^^
Because outsourcing reaps large profits to big companies. Illegal immigration benefits the not so big companies. These are the ones that give to political candidates. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/23/2007 3:44:48 PM |
Computers and Electronics: 455,000
I was part of the 455,000! Least I know I was able to give something back, like being a statistic! My friend was making 100K, and I was making 1/2 that, now I'm not making any of that. God I love this country
Because outsourcing reaps large profits to big companies.
I wonder if we could outsource politicians. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/23/2007 4:30:24 PM | OP;
Yeah, a job is just a job.......UNTIL it is YOUR job which some ILLEGAL alien has stolen.
I am not saying that outsourcing does not constitutte a big problem here. Whether you agree with the politics of it or not, outsourcing is still a LEGAL way to conduct your business. I don't even want to get into the ethics of it but it is LEGAL.
However;
The immigration problem hinges on the fact that the MAJORITY of those people south of the border who are coming here are breaking the law. Period. End of discussion.
Either enforce the law we currently have, seal the border, do something, or face the fact that out economy is fast becoming one built on ignorant THIEVES.
If you would do just a tiny bit of research into this problem you will find that neither the Mexican government (including the others in Central and South America) nor the people themselves really give a SH*T what we natural born citizens of the USA think about this issue. You will find they INTEND on retaking this 1/2 of the continent by migration, legal or otherwise. And they advertise this FACT all over the internet.
Get a clue buddy. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/23/2007 9:59:55 PM | Outsourcing should have been criminalized and made into a felony offense as soon as it came about! It is treasonous for American companies to outsource jobs that could be filled by Americans. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 6:23:43 AM |
Any thoughts in general, I'd love to hear it. Especially in concerns to the relationship between job loss due to illegal immigration and job loss due to outsourcing.
As has been pointed out, it's so much easier (and neater) to blame illegal aliens because it then becomes a racially charged issue, and one of those emotional "hot buttons".
You can "see" illegal aliens , but you can't "see" corporations.
In both cases the profit motivation trumps any other, and the government looks the other way in both cases. They fail to prosecute the hiring of illegal aliens in any realistic way, because the profit made by those companies breaking the law allows the people that contribute to their political coffers to continue to do so.
Both cases also allow for a pressure to be brought against all American workers, that keeps their salaries artificially low - compared to what it would be otherwise.
Just look at American CEO's that are terminated for bad performance, and the huge amounts of money they are rewarded with, even after NOT accomplishing the job they were tasked with doing.
Charles Conaway, the chief executive of Kmart, an American discount retailer, left the company in March 2002 after just 21 months in the job and two months after the company had filed for Chapter-11 bankruptcy. A company loan of $5m, granted as part of Mr Conaway's pay package, was “forgiven” upon his departure.
Robert Nardelli, one of two candidates who failed to win the top job at General Electric on Mr Welch's retirement, left to head Home Depot, a retailer with revenues less than half those of GE. Mr Nardelli's compensation in 2002 (of around $20m) included $2.5m for the forgiveness (to be spread over four years) of a $10m loan granted to him on his appointment. His contract also forgives him any interest on the loan and any tax due, and it includes a golden parachute of at least $20m. Not bad for an also-ran.
http://www.gametheory.net/News/Items/115.html
You can run a company into bankruptcy protection, and still be livin' large.
Nardelli's a wonderful example of this in action. When Home Depot's profit and stock's sunk, he was still able to walk away with his head held high, and his wallet overflowing.
He didn’t leave empty-handed: the Atlanta-based company said Nardelli would receive a severance package worth roughly $210 million, an amount decried by some lawmakers as a golden parachute that sends the wrong message to investors.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16451112/
So you don't do the job you were hired to do, and you still wind up with $ 210 million dollars - which you have to admit is pretty impressive, especially considering that poor profitability was the factor involved in his termination.
Home Depot has 350,000 employees worldwide:
http://www.aarp.org/money/careers/findingajob/
featuredemployers/home_depot.html
It offers them no retiree benefits, and no employee discounts.
The money the company gave to it's failed CEO was the same it would have spent had they gave 600 dollars to every single one of it's employees. Just imagine the profit that could have been generated had that same money been offered in bonuses for improving store operations.
Twelve years ago, CEOs at major U.S. corporations were paid 82 times the average earnings of a blue collar worker; last year they were paid more than 400 times the average earnings of a blue collar worker.
This huge increase in executive compensation has been especially controversial because CEOs are sometimes paid large sums even as the firm's results deteriorate; CEOs at WorldCom, Tyco, and Enron collected over $100 million on average in the year before scandals broke at the firms or the firm collapsed.
http://www.law.stanford.edu/publications/
stanford_lawyer/issues/72/CEOPaySkill.html
All that cash has to come from somewhere, you know ? | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 10:34:46 AM | I want to bring up the best CEO in the nation, Jim Sinegal of Costco. He only accepts a half million a year for being the CEO, allowing the workers to make a better wage. Costco has very low turnover and has been doing fantastically well over the years.
If more companies followed this honorable man's example we would be enjoying economic prosperity like we've never seen before. High living wages for workers is a MUST. Another fine businessman from the past, Henry Ford, knew the importance of paying people well enough so that they can make a good living and BUY things that the businesses sell.  | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 10:41:23 AM | | The irony is that it's the lower-end jobs that get outsourced (usually) And if they were still in the US, guess who would be doing them. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 11:14:58 AM | Hey its all the manufacturing jobs in this area that are getting outsourced, not just lower end. We are just a retirement community and call center job area now. NAFTA was the worst thing that ever happened to this country and they are still fastlaning different versions of it through congress without us even knowing about it now. Big business is profiting but who is gonna pay taxes to pay government salaries when no one is working? Maybe when they stop gettin their checks they will do something.
Sam | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 11:19:07 AM | My impression is the US is just working through what us Canuks do but with the Mexican twist.
We both like a good standard of living which we equate to owning things. We want good paying jobs to buy the boat, that video game, on and on. So the buyers need good pay to buy lots of stuff, who makes the stuff? If the farmer or manufacturer pays big bucks for his employment needs his product becomes only affordable to the rich and certainly looses any international affordability.
Canada is a resource base which has been great up until a few years ago. All we had to do was pay big bucks (oil sands) to retreive the raw materials. We lack in manufacturing because our lifestyle demands good pay. Adding a high manufacturing coast to the resource cost is putting us out of markest as China, India and Russia start taping into their resources. In those countries you have some labour advantages, yes their folks are not used to buying good stuff. In the US you have this haf and half system with things like the underground economy with illegal immigrants covering off allot of those jobs that the folks who want stuff will not take. In Canada we have the same situation but almost excusively in farming, and yes even some nice folk from Mexico, but these are jobs we do not have the population nor the work ethic to do. The only other obvious difference would be Canada's work force is shrinking like the rest of the world while only India and the US continue to grow, this would create the situation of the perception of taking jobs away from US citizens, which we do not have.
Out sourcing appears to be the method of keeping inexpensive items available for those who can afford it. If you wish every citizen to be able to afford good stuff you will price yourself out of the market. I beleive the term is 'catch 22', if you know your old movies. Now if you consider that lower wages appear to be workable in many countries (they don't need good stuff) it kind of points out who's economy's are the ones in fine balance, tred carefully solving this one. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 12:23:55 PM |
If you wish every citizen to be able to afford good stuff you will price yourself out of the market.
With a caveat, I disagree here.
Look at someone like Barry Goldwater, who was about as conservative as you can get. When he took over his father's company, he was anti-union. At the same time, he was about as enlightened and progressive employer as you could find back in those days. He believed that in doing that, he's actually gain far more money in the end. I believe he called it "enlightened self-interest". 
He managed Goldwater Inc. with innovative ideas. He offered employees health benefits, organized a flying club, instituted a five-day workweek, and was the first to hire black sales clerks in Phoenix.
He was doing all that in the 1930's. 
Even Henry Ford realized that workers who were underpaid would not by his product, and so he paid them rather well.
The problem here is that too much money is being diverted to the very top of the pyramid, and no one seems to think that reduces competitiveness , or profit. That money is just as important to the company's bottom line as the money handed over in workers salaries.
As I pointed out, even a failed CEO can make 210 million while failing at the job he was hired to do. CEO's can make even more money by closing plants, and outsourcing American jobs.
The problem is that if people do this in great numbers, then the market for certain products will be out of reach for a growing segment of the economy. If you look at a current example, if people reach their credit limit and cannot obtain more, and enough people hit that situation - the economy foes into a tailspin, and the stock market takes a huge hit as earnings fall.
It's the same effect with gas prices shooting skywards, or home equity being lost in things like the sub-prime market fall.
All these things can have a devastating effect on the economy, as consumers withdraw from anything more than what is needed to survive. Each purchase is a choice, and some can be avoided. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 12/24/2007 3:15:51 PM | ^Since I don't know for sure or not, I really hope you're kidding. I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt that that was meant as sarcasm.
Hey its all the manufacturing jobs in this area that are getting outsourced, not just lower end.
Actually, that's what I was referring to.
Maybe it would be more accurate to call it unskilled work but since that's not entirely true either I guess it's simply a combination of unskilled and lower paying.
I realize that not all unskilled labour is low-paying. Much of it is though and simply put, it's not low-paying in the US but the moment it moves somewhere else it becomes so. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 3:37:06 AM | Talking about illegal immigration makes everyone forget about the outsourcing.
When I was in Israel just before the Second Gulf War, the main topic of conversation was not the war. The news was reporting that the US was restricting steel imports and pushing other countries to pay high prices for steel exported from the US and the UN might get involved to make it fair. Then the war happened, and that never got mentioned again.
Maybe someone is trying to make us forget about how much outsourcing is costing the West? | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 4:39:42 AM | Why is it that we are focusing so much attention on illegal immigration when there is a bigger problem, or is outsourcing not a problem in yours eyes?
^^^^^^^^
I'd rearrange that previous post:
Because outsourcing reaps large profits to big companies. These are the ones that give to political candidates. Illegal immigration benefits the politicians who need things to b^^ch about. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 5:55:25 AM | within my own field of work (construction), I can tell you that the big developers are using illegals. Why? because they get cheap workers. Don't think for one minute that means a savings passed on to the buyer however.
You cannot outsource on-site work to China. These are good jobs, right here.. but.. citizens are not working while the illegals are.
Not just in the residential housing market...but.. in the commerical construction industry too.
There isn't any real punishment for an employer caught using illegals. Years and years ago.. the cry of INS on the work site sent the illegals running... not any more. Most of the illegals on the worksite don't even know what INS stands for any more it has been so long since any raid. Used to be that the cost per worker in fines to the employers totally wiped out any profit and then some. Plus.. they couldn't get more projects. Not any more. INS doesn't even bother to check any more.... and getting caught just means they have to find a new group of illegals.
If we make all the illegals legal... guess what... those same employers will go and get more illegals to fill those positions.
Remember the last time we went thru this? Back on the 90s... we made them all legal.. and guess what? instead of a few million illegals...we now have 10s of millions of illegals.
Knowing that there are so many at the employment office looking for any work in the construction industry... while their jobs are being done by illegals... I have told General Contractors that every worker they send to my job site has to have proof that they are legal... birth certificate or green card... guess who shows up at the work site? NO ONE.
Commerical construction is booming... but.. there are more construction employees than ever out of work. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 7:09:04 AM |
nor the people themselves really give a SH*T what we natural born citizens of the USA think about this issue. You will find they INTEND on retaking this 1/2 of the continent by migration, legal or otherwise
Just an observation but I thought the natrual born citizens of the USA were American Indians. Everyone else forefathers migrated to the States somehow or other in the 15/ 1600's and now all people are all born into that country. Everyones great- great- great- great grandparents were given a chance and its every persons human right.
Why is it so difficult for everyone to grasp the concept that were are all brothers and sisters, this world is too greedy theres enoughto go around for everyone.
I am not here to wind people up over thier heritage but just like Liverpool (which was one of the worlds largest ports! and I was born here )... America is a large melting pot of different nationalites.
Theres lots of immigration workers everywhere in the world including Liverpool. Please try to remember all your relatives were once immigrant workers too. I think the problem that lies is definately contributed more outsourcing to India and other third world countries.
I hope I am not slated for giving my true opinion because I do beleive that is what the forums are for?
Take Care LP  | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 8:56:40 AM | The reason illegal immigration is such an issue is because there are a multitude of issues related to it. Unemployment is only one - for many people (including myself) it is not that important.
Other issues which motivate people are
- simple rule of law. The nation should have control over who it allows to become a citizen.
- the demographics of new immigrants. We deny legal immigration to college educated immigrants and applicatants with money, while allowing instead tens of millions of new unskilled laborers with no money or education to settle. That's not a recipe for competativeness in the next century.
- culture and assimilation. Many people believe that so many immigrants from the same place at once discourages assimilation. Related to this is the problem of language - regions and service sectors are becoming spanish-only.
- the ticking time bomb. Social security will become insolvant. Adding tens of millions of low-wage earners to the rolls is a short-term fix which make the crisis even worse.
- overpopulation. More people means more development, more traffic, and more crowding. It means more energy consumption and more energy emmissions. It means a greater demand on naural resources and the water supply. Can we really afford to double our population yet again in 50 years?
For me the last issue is the important one. You cannot tackle climate change without getting control over development and energy consumption. Double the population and you need to halve the energy emissions just to stay even. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 9:08:26 AM |
Double the population and you need to halve the energy emissions just to stay even Would people not use the energy consumption no matter what side of the world they were on... unless they were living in the bush living off the land! Energy consumption is about each individual doing the best to minimise thier carbon footprint. Its not about who lives in America or not? | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 10:03:37 AM | | designing women...you brought up a good point about Sinegal and Ford. I don't believe Mr Sinegal's income really plays into how much the average Costco employee makes, but it's a good symbol really. Costco pays about double what Wal-Mart (The Evil Empire as I call it, they never get a dime from me) and the production level is also higher at Costco. I have friends that work there in management and it's a good place to work, but they hire a much better quality person then Wal-Mart does. That comes at a price. They expect far more from their associates then Wal-Mart and others. Ford is another example, he paid well, but expected alot out of his people. He was also a big time union buster. I hate outsourcing, it has destoyed the middle-class, however I struggle with telling a privately owned company how to run their business. Also, their might be a little blame on the worker too. Take it from someone that runs a business, I have never seen any difference in work ethic when I have paid minimum wage or more then double it. Many still do as little as possible, watch the clock and are fairly unreliable no matter what you pay them. And then you still hear how underpaid and over worked they are. So it's a struggle between being moral and making sure my people are paid well, or keeping operating costs down and using those profits to keep the company as profitable as possible. You seem to get the same work out of both. Yes, I do get a bonus on making more profit before you ask. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 1:23:04 PM |
Would people not use the energy consumption no matter what side of the world they were on... unless they were living in the bush living off the land! Energy consumption is about each individual doing the best to minimise thier carbon footprint. Its not about who lives in America or not?
Yes, you would think, but it gets more complicated than that. The US (and the west generally) contributes far more emissions per person than the rest of the world. And when somebody moves here, they assume the local consumption profile - it usually starts with buying a car and living 20 miles from where you work, and soon includes electronics. And the larger the population grows, the further away people live, and the more cars you add to the road. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 9:09:36 PM | @ namegame
The reason illegal immigration is such an issue is because there are a multitude of issues related to it.
......... ......all well put!.............1 other thing you didn't mention is how the 'illegals' utilize the social systems that they do NOT pay into(tax-wise)............ such as: public schooling for their children, healthcare systems, and other miscelleanous services which over a course of a year....adds up to quite a bit of money that lawful taxpayers must cover!
.......it never ceases to amaze me as to how torpid (or apathetic) the typical american really is about this type of thing!.........if this were going on in any other developed country, i'd be willing to bet that there would be massive protests by its citizens from 1 end of the border to the other!...............yet here we seemingly have pathologically cultivated a defeatist acceptance to this (and other) problem/s of high significance... that will no doubt irreversibly impact the next generation that will soon be stepping into the 'helm'.....and find out that there is no more 'fuel to power the political vessel'! | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/10/2008 9:28:13 PM | Well I think the focus is on illegal immigration, because that is a violation of U.S. laws, there is no law what so ever in any state that I know of that makes out sourcing illegal. So illegal immigration is something that can be worked with, and reduced. But there is nothing the goverment can do against outsourcing, and little that consumers can do other than refuse to use services that have started to use outsourcing.
Also as far as the illegal immigration, its not just jobs they steal. An illegal gets sick goes to the hospital, is treated, and then disappears. They don't pay so the hospital has to charge the next person a higher amount, and this continues to drive the cost of health care up right through the roof. Then the illegals are not paying taxes, or social security but they are actually able to get welfare, so they steal jobs and the goverment tries to recoup this money and increases taxes on those of us who do pay them. When you actually look up the amount of money that the illegals cost the U.S. every year its something like a trillion dollars. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/11/2008 1:03:18 AM | It's not only manufacturing jobs that are being off shore outsourced. The financial institutions are also following suit. The general public is aware of the banking center customer service call centers being outsourced but they are not aware that the back office operations are also being outsourced. This means customer's critical financial information is being outsourced off shore. This is quite a concern.
My cousin worked for a huge electronics company and his yearly income was 6 figures. His position was outsourced and before being "displaced" (a nicer term for being laid-off) he had to train the very people who were taking his job. He was with the company for over 15 yrs. He is now employed by another company but earning a quarter less than his former employer was paying him. So, it's not only the unskilled low paying jobs that are being affected.
The government is claiming they are working toward avoiding a recession. Although our government denies that we are in a recession we are already feeling repercussions of NAFTA . Unemployment statistics are soaring due to off shore outsourcing. There are over 200,000 homes in foreclosure in this county and the neighboring county because of the loss of jobs, the rising property taxes and the astronomical homeowners hazard insurance. In my opinion we are already in a recession and headed toward a depression all because our government sanctions off shore outsourcing.
Off shore outsourcing is causing a domino affect. For example, the building industry is suffering, the lumber yards and other resources the industry employs, the real estate companies, the title companies, the surveyors, the mortgage brokerages, the list goes on. As another post stated, NAFTA is the worst thing that ever happened to the USA.
One has to wonder why none of the presidential candidates have focused on the issue of the loss of American jobs due to off shore outsourcing.
Jay Leno said that Nissan is building a car in India that sells for $2,000. but will only be sold to the Indian people. He said that Nissan should build a car in the USA for $2,000. and only sell it to the American people who lost their jobs to India. | |
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| Double-edged Sword of Unemployment
Posted: 2/11/2008 6:24:42 AM | ^
One has to wonder why none of the presidential candidates have focused on the issue of the loss of American jobs due to off shore outsourcing.
.........because all the mainstream candidates are "company-men" who are in the pockets of big-business..........as long as the american voter can be herded like dumb sheep, very little will change! | |
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