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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 1
Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?
Posted: 1/3/2008 11:58:47 AM
I've asked this question numerous times and have yet to be intelligently answered:

Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?
This is not a trap, just an honest question.

When dealing with sexual rules, homosexuality, adultery, and bestiality are mentioned. But pre-marital sex is not. Why?

I understand the "religious" rules imposed on man by a church that is more focused on works than grace - but why is it all so prevalently taught without proper textual support?

I believe everyone imposes upon themselves moral codes of conduct - and that usually by a matter of conscience - through religion; but, that still does not address the issue at large.

After all, King David - who is noted as being a man after God's own heart (by God himself) - had multiple wives AND concubines. His son, Solomon had even more. What of that?

I don't think there is a conflict in scripture, rather the interpretation.

Am I wrong?
 allthingsflow

Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 2
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 12:05:40 PM
It is all a matter of interpretation. And, I suppose, what particular faith you belong to. In my church, all the good or bad deeds you do don't make a bit of difference if you have faith. IMO, that's all that should matter.
 seriouslyfunnylady

Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 3
view profile
History
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 12:11:47 PM
New Testament
1Co 6:15-20; 7:1,2
You know that your bodies are parts of the body of Christ. Shall I take a part of Christ’s body and make it part of the body of a prostitute? Impossible! Or perhaps you don’t know that the man who joins his body to a prostitute becomes physically one with her? The scripture says quite plainly, “The two will become one body.” But he who joins himself to the Lord becomes spiritually one with him. Avoid immorality. Any other sin a man commits does not affect his body; but the man who is guilty of sexual immorality sins against his own body. Don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God; he bought you for a price. So use your bodies for God’s glory. A man does well not to marry. But because there is so much immorality [from the Greek word porneia, Strongs #4202], every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband. (TEV)

In the last passage listed above, Paul commends marriage as a means to avoid "fornication" (KJV), "immorality" (NAB, NIV, REB, TEV), "sexual immorality" (NRSV), which is a translation of the Greek word porneia (Strong's # 4202). That Greek word and its related Greek words porneuo (Strong's # 4203), pornos (Strong's # 4205), and ekporneuo (Strong's #1608) are discouraged throughout the New Testament, as in the following verses:
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 4
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 1:30:46 PM
prostitution and premarital sex are not the same things.

Again, where is the textual support?

There is no clear marker in scripture indicating premarital sex as immoral. Interpretation is one thing. What is not there is certainly another.
 TongFuMstr

Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 5
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 1:49:24 PM
here's a site with some passages, i edited it to make it shorter here!
http://www.new-life.net/premarital.htm

Premarital Sex and the Bible

Sometimes you will hear people say that the Bible doesn't say anything about premarital sex. Apparently this statement is made by people who haven't read the Bible or, at least, who haven't read it thoroughly. The Bible speaks in clear language directly to the issue in both the Old and New Testaments. Here are the Biblical passages with short comments.

Old Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage

Exodus 22:16-17~ If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

[If premarital sex occurs, then an Israelite male was to marry the woman he slept with - that is, assuming the father allowed the marriage.]

Deuteronomy 22:13-21~ If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

[Premarital sex is viewed as a "disgraceful thing" and "evil."]

Proverbs 5:15-21~ Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love. Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.

[A man's "fountain" should be saved for "the wife of [his] youth." The man is to be a virgin when he takes his wife.]

New Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage

1 Corinthians 6:16-18~ Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

[Sexual intimacy "unites" you with the other person. When this uniting of flesh happens outside of marriage, it is called "sexual immorality." One fleshness is to be limited to the one you marry. This is similar to what we saw in Exodus 22:16-17.]

1 Corinthians 7:1-2~ Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

[Notice that to avoid sexual immorality outside of marriage people should marry.]

1 Corinthians 7:8-9~ Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust.

[If you are struggling with wanting to have sex, get married. Premarital sex isn't an option for dealing with lust. It's either marriage or you are in sexual sin.]

Ephesians 5:31~ "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

[Paul is quoting from Genesis 2:24 and affirming the Old Testament standard of uniting in flesh only with your spouse. One fleshness is to happen when a man leaves his father and mother and is "united to his wife." Compare with 1 Corinthians 6:16-18.]

1 Thessalonians 4:2-8~ For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this manner no one should cheat his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

["Acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable" or you are in sexual immorality. Sexual sin harms others besides those who engage in it. In adultery, the spouse is always wronged. Premarital sex "cheats" the future partner by robbing him or her of the virginity that ought to be brought to marriage.]

Hebrews 13:4~ Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

[Again, it's a pure marriage bed or you are an "adulterer" or "sexually immoral."]


The standard in both the Old and New Testament regarding premarital sex is the same. Premarital sex is considered sin and a violation of the uniting of bodies that should happen only in marriage. It is important to say, however, that many Christians have violated this standard. THIS WAS TRUE OF THOSE IN THE EARLY CHURCH TOO.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11~ Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 6
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 3:42:08 PM
"Premarital Sex and the Bible

Sometimes you will hear people say that the Bible doesn't say anything about premarital sex. Apparently this statement is made by people who haven't read the Bible or, at least, who haven't read it thoroughly. The Bible speaks in clear language directly to the issue in both the Old and New Testaments. Here are the Biblical passages with short comments."

First of all, I have read the Bible - more than once - and have studied it for several years. The simple fact that you and millions of others purport to know what is hotly debated by Christian apologists everywhere is nothing short of silly.

First of all: the references taken from levitical law are not part of the new covenant. Paul also wrote that we are saved by grace; and that works (adherence to said law) are for nothing. The behavior of a Christian is a byproduct of the conversion - however, it should definitely be noted behavioral rules differ from person to person as their perception of said issues determines their salvation. Any questions about that, read Galatians.

The Proverbs excerpt deals explicitly with ADULTERY.

The NT excerpts, again, deal specifically with ADULTERY. It is quite plain. Though Paul notes celibacy is good, the implication is not that all should so abstain. The directives are clear and are so defined through what is listed as sexually immoral behavior. Again, pre-marital sex is not listed. Were it not so, why would it not be listed by an otherwise thorough writer?

The simple truth - which is key to a much larger truth - is that those who claim literal translation/adherence to the Word pick and choose what they will or will not believe, thus, leaving those presupposed grey areas as being implied. Through literal reading, the implication is not to be found. To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
 TongFuMstr

Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 7
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 6:43:36 PM
sorry, but you do say you are a believer, right, ok, here's some [lovingly] "brotherly" rebuke, as we are told to do in the Bible! IMHO, I just think you're blind to your own desire(lust) to be sexually active outside of marriage and be(feel) ok with that. I should know, i tried that thinking as well, years ago while i was living with my [now ex] fiance'~~~"It's ok, God considers us married," and BS like that! You just want your "itching" ears tickled(scratched) by hearing what you have already determined in your mind, so you'll feel better! "Justified sinning," ain't gonna happen, not from this Believer! The scriptures are quite clear on this subject. And i've been reading and studying for over 30 years now! It's actually quite obvious.

First of all: the references taken from levitical law are not part of the new covenant. Paul also wrote that we are saved by grace; and that works (adherence to said law) are for nothing. The behavior of a Christian is a byproduct of the conversion - however, it should definitely be noted behavioral rules differ from person to person as their perception of said issues determines their salvation. Any questions about that, read Galatians.

Right, saved by grace through faith, works (law) doesn't get you into heaven, but,
About the Law~~~
Matthew 5: 17-20, 7:12~ Romans 7:12~ Matthew 22:36-40 (specifically 40~On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets). (just a few).
We are no longer "under" the [curse of the] law, but the law is still in effect, for guidance and direction. The law of Christ is what to do (how to live, positive as some might say), the OT law is what not to do (how not to live, negative as some might say), Live by Christs law and you are at the same time obeying the OT law!
behavioral rules differ from person to person as their perception of said issues determines their salvation. Whatever happened to being likeminded, and in one accord? (Acts 1:14, 2:1,46, 4:24, 5:12, 15:25 Romans 12:16, 15:6 1Corinthians 13:11 2Corinthians 13:11 Philippians 1:27, 2:2, 4:2 1Peter 3:8, 4:1)

The NT excerpts, again, deal specifically with ADULTERY.


1 Corinthians 7:8-9~ Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust.

those who "aren't" married? What is it that they can't control? Me thinks it's keeping their privates private (and to themselves) outside of marriage!
Again, this is all IMHO!!!
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 8
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 6:51:16 PM
Exactly: Your opinion. Not proven fact.

And, no I am not struggling - despite what you obviously think. I am simply asking a question of what is and what isn't.

Obviously, as I noted in my previous post (and you ignored) is that after listing sexual immorality (prostitution and the patronage thereof, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) Paul gave the directive to get married. Pre-marital sex is not specifically mentioned at all while others are. Therein lies the question.
 Nergal

Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 9
textual support?
Posted: 1/3/2008 10:51:34 PM
The whole no sex outside of marriage thing was brought in by the early Church. The original priests were married and had children and affairs and lived much as people do today. I cant remember the reference but I read a good explanation of the way it was adopted It was the trend of priests being closer to God by being dedicated and therefore not being married and having the distraction of a family.
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 10
textual support?
Posted: 1/4/2008 11:50:19 AM
thoughful 76's question was very, very valid and well thought out. And so far all he's got are unrelated passages strung together with interpretations of "men speaking for God". Come one! Quote the plain, simple, unambiguous passage where Jesus, Paul, one of the Apostles, even one of the Disciples say, "No sex before marriage" "NIX" "NO WAY!" "Ain't gonna happen!"

References to why newly-converted Christians should no longer take part in a common religious practice, that of having sex with Temple prostitutes, should not commit adultery (duh!), should no longer practice polygamy or convenient divorce, or why provision should be made when a man seduces a woman into having sex with him, or a newly-wed husband accuses his new wife of not being a virgin, and appeal to ones own personal failures are hardly solid proof are they? You would think that if G-d was so adamant about it, He would have been abundantly clear. Then He wouldn't need "men of G-d" to interpret for Him would He?

Anyway, to answer the question as best and as honesty as I know how to:
Sexual intercourse changes the nature of the relationship between you and the person you have intercourse with. It changes the dynamics for good or for bad. It is rarely a neutral event. You are 31 and recently divorced. That means you've probably experienced genuine, loving, emotionally bonding, deeply soul touching, sex with another human being so you know what I mean. Now that person has gone, and you feel an emptiness, a gap, a piece missing. It sounds like you want to understand your sexual feelings and needs and the emotions you've previously experienced, and the closeness, in a new context. And if that is the case, I understand it. I've been there and I know exactly how you feel. But be cautious. If your heart is still wounded, if you haven't fully healed from whatever brought about your divorce, if you feel lost and lonely inside. sex will not help. It may take away the pain for a short while, but it will return even greater and more painful. It will be like drinking salt water to quench a thirst.

In the end though, it is your choice before G-d. Go honestly before your Father and ask Him for wisdom, understanding, and guidance. Listen to His voice (you know the sound of His voice). And ask Him for the gift of celibacy if that is what you want. In the end, it's your decision before Him that counts. I'll pray for you to make a wise choice.
 BigD9833

Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 11
view profile
History
textual support?
Posted: 1/4/2008 10:20:50 PM
I am not satisfied that there is any textual support for this so called sin. Our morality is our own. We can find support in the Bible for just about anything. At least we can interpert it that way. But I beleieve that we create our own morality. I have heard it say that everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. I think everyone has their own idea of what is right and what is wrong. If everyone knew right from wrong, there would be no arguments over moral issues. Everyone would agree on subjects like, say, abortion. We all know that isn't so.

The word 'fornicate' or 'fornication' is very misleading. If you ask 10 differnt people about it's definition, you might get 10 different answers. I have heard it defined as, sex, sex outside of marriage, oral sex, anal sex, prostitution, just to name a few. Literally translated, it means adultery. And you have to be married to comit adultery. The Bible speaks of 2 sexual instances that are forbiden. Virgins and married people. I will add prostitution to that, too. If you are not a virgin, and not married, and not looking to bed a prostitute, then the Bible is silent on this issue. Just look at some of the OT characters. Abraham was married, but had sex with his wifes maid. And Jacob... forget about it! He had 12 sons (12 tribes of Israel), but how many wives and daughters? Sexual activity outside of marriage is not unfimilar in the Bible.

Now a prostitute is a woman who has sex for money. It think it would be unfair to call any woman who enjoys sex, and is sexually active, a prostitute. If she is sleeping with a man that she loves and no one else, there is no reason to call her a prostitute, as has been inferred here. Jesus has told us many times, "Judge not."
 romanticoptimist

Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 12
textual support?
Posted: 1/4/2008 11:05:45 PM
You presume that just because people know what is right or wrong, that knowledge governs their actions all the time. Experience and a glance through the newspaper and history books tells me that isn't so. Therefore, it's entirely possible that people do know the difference between right and wrong. They just don't practice right.

As for "fornicate", it doesn't matter what 10 different people might answer or whether they give 10 different answers. It only matters whether they know the meaning of the word in the original language or not. And it doesn't mean "adultery" if by that you mean it means ONLY adultery -- your next sentence implies that's the point you're trying to make. In NT Greek "porneia" means:
"illicit sexual intercourse" and in context it cover adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals, sexual intercourse with close relatives (Lev. 18), and in at least one case sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman.
 CarlosAUB

Joined: 12/22/2007
Msg: 13
view profile
History
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 10:31:07 AM
Hi thoughtful!

The term used in the Bible for pre-marital sex is fornication. I am sure you can find tons of texts on the matter.

Peace,

Carlos
 consigliere31

Joined: 12/24/2007
Msg: 14
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:36:23 PM
Where does it say in the bible that Abraham is Jacob's grandfather. I know it says that Abraham begat Isaac and isaac begat Jacob....but no where does it explicitly state that Abraham is Jacob's grandfather.



Do you see where this is going OP.
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 15
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:55:29 PM
Yes I do, and you are comparing an academic (logical) conclusion to a very open and subjective area. My reasons are stated above, and you can play all you want with such exercises; but the point remains strong. If it were so important, why was it not listed with all other sexual behaviors? It is a simple and valid question that you cannot answer.
To answer it with so simple a comparison is just intellectually dishonest.
 consigliere31

Joined: 12/24/2007
Msg: 16
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:11:24 PM

Matthew 19
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.



What was the question in your OP, thougtful76??

Are you interested in understanding the heart and intentions that God has for His creation, or are you looking for loopholes and technicalities that support your own intentions.
 someplace***

Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 17
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:24:07 PM
Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?
I don't know that it actually says that anywhere in the bible?

I could be wrong, but I believe that the concept of pre-marital sex being a sin, resulted from some people's interperetation of the 7th commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery".

This doesn't really say anything about pre-marital sex, and "adultery" is usually used as a term to refer to people being unfaithful to their partner.
But, I believe that many people have interpereted the commandment to refer to any sexual relations which took place outside of marriage.



The problem, naturally enough, lies with the meaning of the word “adultery.” People today tend define it as any act of sexual intercourse outside of marriage or, perhaps a bit more narrowly, any act of sexual intercourse between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. That is appropriate in contemporary society but it isn’t not how the word has always been defined.

The ancient Hebrews in particular had a very restricted understanding of the concept and limited it to just sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who was either already married or at least betrothed. The marital status of the man was irrelevant. Thus, a married man was not guilty of “adultery” for having sex with an unmarried woman.

This restriction makes sense if we remember that at the time women were often treated as little more than property — a slightly higher status than the slaves but not nearly as high as that of men. Because women were like property, having sex with a married or betrothed woman was regarded as misuse of someone else’s property (with the possible consequence of children whose actual lineage was uncertain — the main reason for treating women this way was to control their reproductive capacity and ensure the identity of the father of her children). A married man having sex with an unmarried woman was not guilty of such a crime and thus was not committing adultery. If she also wasn’t a virgin, then the man wasn’t guilty of any crimes at all.

This exclusive focus on married or betrothed women leads to an interesting conclusion. Because not all extramarital sex acts qualify as adultery, even sexual intercourse between members of the same sex would not be counted as violations of the Seventh Commandment. They might be regarded as violations of other laws, but they wouldn’t be a violation of the Ten Commandments — at least, not according to the understanding of the ancient Hebrews.

Contemporary Christians define adultery much more broadly, and as a consequence almost all extramarital sex acts are treated as violations of the Seventh Commandment. Whether this is justified or not is debatable. Less debatable are the attempts to expand the understanding of “adultery” beyond even sex acts themselves.

http://atheism.about.com/od/tencommandments/a/commandment07.htm
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 18
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:27:13 PM
Fallacy of obfuscation.
First of all you again cite a passage that deals EXPLICITLY with marriage.
Secondly, my question is not one motivated by fleshly desire but academic pursuit of "knowing" God's word. The simple reason is because too many people use their fallacious interpretations to beat everyone else down.
You apparent religious folk are all too good at such things.
 TongFuMstr

Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 19
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 3:41:55 PM
ok, thoughtful76, how do you interpret these verses?
Matthew 5 27,28~
27~ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28~ But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, was not just talking to married people, but "whosoever." (i also don't think He's talking about just looking at a "married" woman). I'm just trying to point out to you what i see, i know you are an intelligent man, so i won't go into great detail.

the references taken from levitical law are not part of the new covenant.

I know i mentioned them in a previous post, but i wanted to expand a little.
Matthew 5:17-20~
"17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Heaven nor earth have passed, to my knowledge! Fulfillment is not yet complete!
"No, the law cannot save you", but we are to abide by it's guidelines. Jesus also states in Matthew 23:1-3~
"1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Here, Jesus is telling us to listen to and do what they say, (sitting in Moses' seat would mean the Law), He wasn't condemning the law, but the misuse and abuse of it by the teachers (rest of the chapter).

Exactly: Your opinion. Not proven fact.

Yes, it it "my opinion." If you want facts, then it is no longer by faith (kinda like the apostle Thomas). The world wants facts, "Blessed are those that do not see, and yet believe."

It's up to you how you want to believe, this is JMHO!!!
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 20
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Posted: 1/5/2008 4:54:40 PM

Where does it say in the bible that Abraham is Jacob's grandfather. I know it says that Abraham begat Isaac and isaac begat Jacob....but no where does it explicitly state that Abraham is Jacob's grandfather.
Doesn't that mean that "grandfather" could mean anything? Could you be my grandfather, consigliere? We're not related, but what the heck. Where are my birthday presents?


OP, the real question here is: Do you care? At the end of the day, most people choose to be engage in sex without marriage, or they don't, based on their own beliefs. Some of those people will choose not to have sex without marriage, because they follow the Bible in everything they do. Now, if you don't follow the Bible that much anyway, apart from "don't murder", and "don't steal", which are in the law and societal norms anyway, then it doesn't make a difference to you, and as long as you treat the women in your life with respect, then I think that's cool.

But if you are going to try and use this as an excuse to try and get some naive 18-year-old woman who wants to wait until a real relationship with a decent guy comes along, just so you can get some, 'cause you can't get laid some other way, you're sad, you're desperate, and I cannot see anyone who would think that G-d would want you to get anything but your just desserts.

After all, King David - who is noted as being a man after God's own heart (by God himself) - had multiple wives AND concubines. His son, Solomon had even more. What of that?
The concubine of Jewish Biblical times is a wife, but who never got a marriage ceremony, or a marriage licence, and is not entitled to alimony. If they want to split, she requires a divorce and her children inherit property equally with a wife's children. So it's more like a common-law wife, but with the added requirement of divorce.
I don't think most people would call that the same as pre-marital sex.

I understand the "religious" rules imposed on man by a church that is more focused on works than grace - but why is it all so prevalently taught without proper textual support?
That is an outgrowth of the Roman Empire. The Romans used to use their pagan religion as a system of control. That later on extended to the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, people still practise this today, like when Blair told the British people that Iraq could send a WMD to bomb the UK in 45 minutes. Turned out this was complete BS, and was based on an essay some student wrote to pass his university degree, and even then, it had to be severely doctored to substantiate that claim. It's not only Church people who still say things without citing accurate references.
 disaronno amaretto

Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 21
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5:17:47 PM

Where does it say - in the Bible - that pre-marital sex is restricted?
Exodus 22:16-17
If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

~If sex occurs before marriage, then an man was to marry the woman he slept with - that is, assuming the father allowed the marriage.

Proverbs 5:15-21
Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love. Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.

~A man's "fountain" should be saved for "the wife of his youth."
The man is to be a virgin when he takes his wife.

When we come to the New Test. we dont see verses explicitly describing the act of premarital sex and its consequences like we do in Exodus or Deut.
It is clear, however, that virginity is still the standard for unmarried Christians and that sex outside the context of marriage is still considered sin. :(

1 Corinthians 7:1-2
Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.
~Notice that to avoid sexual immorality outside of marriage people should marry.

I could go on for hours but hardly see the need...
 trippy_hare

Joined: 5/30/2006
Msg: 22
view profile
History
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5:34:03 PM
Problem is, all those passages can only mean what you say they do if you interpret them that way: which, for the record, would not be a literal interpretation thereof. So technically, scriptural support for the prohibition of sex before marriage is impossible to find literally, it can only be found metaphorically.
 disaronno amaretto

Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 23
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6:02:01 PM

So technically, scriptural support for the prohibition of sex before marriage is impossible to find literally, it can only be found metaphorically.

Scripture can be/is used by Its Author by any means (literally or metaphorically, or any "ically") necessary to speak to the audience at any particular time.
~The Word is active, alive and sharper than any two-edged sword.
 skypoetone

Joined: 3/24/2005
Msg: 24
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6:35:37 PM
~The Word is active, alive and sharper than any two-edged sword.

Yes me dear... Unless, of course... it isn't.
 thoughtful76

Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 25
textual support?
Posted: 1/5/2008 8:59:49 PM
"ok, thoughtful76, how do you interpret these verses?
Matthew 5 27,28~
27~ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28~ But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, was not just talking to married people, but "whosoever." (i also don't think He's talking about just looking at a "married" woman). I'm just trying to point out to you what i see, i know you are an intelligent man, so i won't go into great detail."

(sigh) This is all getting so trite - chasing tails in the same circle. You have not yet proven anything. Again, the word "Adultery" cannot be committed unless a man looks upon another woman with lust outside of his marriage.

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, true; but explain his directive on divorce. He gave only one out - sexual immorality. However, under Levitical law, a certificate of divorce need only be issued.

I know what my faith is as it determines my salvation and directs my daily walk with God. Again, I did not ask because I am looking for advice. If anything, it was an attempt to get so-called Christians to think about what they believe and why. Is it any wonder so many non-believers view Christians as ignorant when so many read something into nothing.

We could do much the same by discussing tithing as an old testament concept. You can follow your implications, and I will believe what is written. Plain and simple.
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