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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 10:42:05 AM | Winikpedia...
Self defense...
Self-defense refers to actions taken by a person to prevent another person from causing harm to one's self, one's property or one's home.
In some countries, it is legal to carry weapons (for example firearms or pepper spray) on one's person for purposes of self-defense. In other countries this may be illegal or may require license. Everyday objects can also be used for self-defense.
Murder...
Legal Analysis of Murder
To repeat, at common law murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought exists if the defendant acts with any of the following states of mind:
(i) Intent to kill; (ii) Intent to inflict serious bodily harm; (iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (abandoned and malignant heart); or (iv) Intent to commit a felony (felony-murder doctrine).
Under element (i) intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill. An example of a deadly weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or even a car when intentionally used to strike the victim.
Under element (iii) abandoned and malignant heart, the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Under element (iv) felony-murder doctrine, the felony committed must be an inherently dangerous felony, such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying felony cannot be a lesser-included offense such as assault, otherwise all homicides would be murder as all homicides are felonies.
Which brings me to the following question...
Is it wrong to kill someone who breaks into your home?
I mean accidentally of course, because to defend yourself, you would want to bring an attacker to a state of submission or incapacity...
I know we Canadians are all bend over take it when it comes to everything except hockey and tasers... We just sit there and say someone else should do something...
But if that guy near Calgary goes to jail for murder, for killing one of two attackers who broke into his home while he was sleeping with his girlfriend, then I think society is really going to pot... No pun intended, but a lot of drug dealers are getting blitzed and killed for their drugs and cash stash... live by the sword, die by the sword I say...
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus? Or just mumble like when the GST was instilled and shoved down our throats?
Just curious? Is it murder and should the guy who killed the invader and wounded the other be charged with murder or being a hero in his own home? IF he knew the assailants and made it look like home invasion, when it was a drunk party gone bad and arguement over a woman or cards or drugs, THEN that is different, but what do you think?
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 10:56:33 AM | If someone broke into my house and tried to hurt me or (God help them) my pets, I would absolutely fight back or try and get out of the house with my pets, I don't care what they take.
Now, if I couldn't get out, first I have a pretty large dog who I know would attack, second, I would more than likely try and disable the intruder rather than kill, but if if came to my life or theirs, they would die.
Now would you like to know if I think rapists should be castrated? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:05:04 AM | Murder NO. Manslaughter NO.
Why would the police want to charge the person in the first place? It his home, He has a right to defend his home. 2 people broke in. 2 to 1 odds in favor of the intruders. 1 intruder was killed. He just evened the odds. In a fight if you hit the other person the right way, you could knock them out or kill them.
Reminds me a few years ago. when some teens broke into a persons home. After the police arrived, charged the home owner with in popper storage of fire arms. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:07:52 AM | | In Canada only the criminals have rights your only legally allowed to be a victim.Our laws are so screwed up I don't even know where to begin.I think if you pass a background check and pistol course you should be allowed to carry a gun but thanks to liberalism and wimp laws only the criminals,terrorists,dope dealers ect can carry guns.It used to be a mans home was his castle now if someone breaks into your home your supposed to run away and let them take what ever they want and hope the cops arrive in time to arrest the bad guy.Thing is even if they do catch him he'll get a slap on the wrist anyways.If a bad guy is in your yard call the police if he's in your home call Smith & Wesson. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:15:59 AM | "But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus? Or just mumble like when the GST was instilled and shoved down our throats? "
This paragraph is somewhat confusing, as it seems to be asking if Canadians should rise up and demand that you be charged for defending your home. But it's obvious from the tone of your post that you meant to say, if you were charged, would Canadians then raise a ruckus in protest over that. I know I would.
It's pretty disgusting when someone who has been in such a position is charged, then has to go to court to defend themselves against some idiot prosecutor who has no idea what it's like to be in that situation. They only go by some theoretical nonsense they learned in their law class and, as in far too many cases, are working from a standpoint that has no relation whatsoever to the REAL world.
If I were on the stand for such a charge, I'd sure as hell ask the prosecutor;
1. if they'd ever been in such a situation;
2. if so, were they able, in the heat of the moment, to calculate the precise amount of force necessary to stop, but not kill, the intruder.
If they answered "no" to either question, I'd simply demand a mistrial. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:40:40 AM | As a rule in most states you have to consider yourself in immediate threat of bodily harm or death to justify using lethal force. My own rule of thumb is to kill anyone who breaks into
my home, period, armed or not. Make sure its not a loved one then blow their head off.
Take some advice though , if they are not armed, take a knife from the kitchen
and put it by the body.people have been charged with murder for killing intruders in their home, because they weren't armed. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:41:28 AM | It's self defense in my book. I believe in having guns for protection and mine are loaded and within easy reach. I see no sense of having a gun for protection if I have to get it out of the locked gun case then getting the bullets and loading it. My home is the one place my son and I can be safe from the outside world and it's craziness. As far as injuring an intruder and not killing them. No way, they break in they're leaving in a body bag. Why, you may ask. They broke in the first time cause they thought I had something they wanted and I shot them but didn't kill them. So now I've given them a reason to come back and do me harm. Call the police? No, call a friend. A true friend brings a shovel and helps move the body...
I hear you. Yes, I have a young son and yes, my guns are loaded. If you teach children from a young age to have respect for things and what those things can do they WILL have respect. He knows what a gun will do and that when it's been shot at anything there is no taking that action back. If "anyone" picks up a gun they better be prepared to use it, if not, leave it where it's at. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 11:54:53 AM | The word that eventually arises is: "Reasonable".
You have a right - even moral duty - to protect yourself and other people in your care; pets and possessions, I believe, are exempt unless their loss would threaten your survival. If you can escape, then you are expected to. If you can reasonably be expected to negate the threat without causing the intruder excessive harm, that is expected.
This, seemingly unfair, system it the only one we have to protect us from accidental murders similar to one that occurred in the USA where an innocent youth was killed just outside the front door of a house when the home's owner shot through the door from inside the house.
The compounding tragedy is, in most cases similar to the one referenced by the OP, the criminals have usually already been dealt with by the judicial system, apparently ineffectively.
OTH if you must use violence to protect yourself, you must escalate the violence to a level beyond the one you're faced with.
It seems to me, most people are averse to killing others for any reason; they suffer greatly even if they killed in self-defense. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:06:37 PM | Badger Bill, I remember that case, and one in which a guy shot a teen on his lawn as well. But back to the improper storage, and a not to the others who posted that they had loaded weapons on hand... Listen to my story... Had a girlfriend who was always stealing and pawning my little things, and once I was on the phone in other room and caught her stealing money from my wallet, last straw, kicked her outside, told her it was over, and 11:30pm, she started kicking on my vehicles, on my door, so I called the police first, and then a taxi for her... Cops came, she lied, said I assaulted her, cops saw on computer in car I had a firearm, and demanded I hand it over... When the cop followed me into the house, I had it loaded in my bedroom with a box of shells nearby. Yeah, I was charged with unsafe storage, went to court, so now I keep my trigger lock on, no shells in gun, in a locked safe, and shells locked in a different storage place. There is NO WAY in hell if I was sleeping and woke up to a door or window breaking that I would have time to jump out of bed, find the keys, unlock the trigger lock, unlock the gun in the container, unlock the cabinet with the shells, load the clip, pop it in my gun, and THEN intercept the dude or dudes on top of my girlfriend or shooting or stabbing me in the back! Yeah, a mans home should be his castle. And you should have the right to post a sign on the doors and windows, Tresspassers will be SHOT.
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:20:46 PM | I feel sorry for you Canadians on this one - an intruder trying to break into your home, you call the police and YOU are arrested for "unsafe storage" for having a loaded gun for protection?!?!
Glad I live in Texas as far as this issue goes.
Texas Governor Rick Perry has signed a new state law that will allow Texans to use deadly force "without retreat" when defending themselves inside their homes, cars and workplaces. The law will go into effect on Sept. 1, 2007.
A law originally enacted in 1973 required Texans to attempt to retreat when criminally attacked. In 1995, the state legislature passed an exception to that law allowing the use of force without retreat when the intruder had illegally entered the victim's home. The law just signed by Gov. Perry extends the 1995 exception beyond the home to vehicles and workplaces. The law, SB 378, allows the reasonable use of deadly force without retreat when the intruder is:
* committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes;
* unlawfully trying to enter a protected place; or
* unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.
The law provides both criminal and civil immunity for persons lawfully using deadly force in the above circumstances.
"The right to defend oneself from an imminent act of harm should not only be clearly defined in Texas law, but is intuitive to human nature," states Gov. Perry. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:25:05 PM | Im a little confused OP, what does the GST have to do with self defence/murder?
Or just mumble like when the GST was instilled and shoved down our throats? - dantares somebody needs to recheck some facts, first thing the GST was introduced to replace the out-dated 13.5% Manufacturers’ Sales Tax (MST), which had been in effect since the 1920's The MST was generally levied at a rate of 13.5%,so would you rather paid 13.5% or 7%
I dont know about that Calgary case if he was a drug dealer or not, but if he was a drug dealer one would think that there are certain risks involved in those illegal careers, I would think he does have the right to defend his home and his life.
I personally think if a person breaks into your home and threatens your life, you should have the right to defend yourself and if the intruder dies as a result, too bad and I hope you made peace with your maker because you will be seeing him soon. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:30:02 PM | People will do anything to protect their loved ones against harm, natural instint would be to fight back to the death to protect my son from an intruder in my home. Even if i knew the consequence would be prison for my actions. Basically you come into my home unwelcomed to do harm you have just dug your grave.
Now is that murder to protect your family on your private property, given the circumstances you just gave. It was absolutly self defense in my eyes...
now for example he had caught the intruders tied them both up and shot them in the head... thats different then that would be murder because he went to far when he did not have to... i suppose thats the problem in this case, was it too far? It's too bad that an intruder has rights too even when they are on your property. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:35:32 PM | I live in Pennsylvania and the law here is pretty much the same as elsewhere... the perp needs to have a weapon and/or you need to feel the threat of imminent bodily harm to yourself or family. Well folks, I'm not one prone to random acts of violence, but I'm NOT about to ask an intruder in MY HOME
'Excuse me Mr. Crackhead/Burglar/Murderer... are you armed???'
Simple answer- shoot his ass dead, place a LARGE butcher knife in his cold, dead hand- case closed.
A very risky gamble for Mr. Burglar... and a very high pricetag. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:36:29 PM | Sorry to hear you were charged for that. You are right of course about not having time to get yourself ready for an intruder. What are we to do? Ask for a few minutes to get ready or throw the bullets at them...lol
I will keep in mind tho should the need ever arise to make sure everything is locked up properly before they get here. Thanks for the heads up.
Where I live they do enforce the trespassing laws if you have a sign posted. I live in small town TN and there isn't a lot of crime but a lot of people do post the signs and I'm pretty sure most of the people where I live feel the same about guns. The south does have their own way of taking care of themselves and I have adapted quite well to them. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 12:47:16 PM | | Don't know the particulars of the case you are talking about, but, from what you are saying, it sounds like self defense to me. Personally, I think if someone breaks into anothers home armed or not and gets killed, it is justified. I think it is asking too much for the common citizen to determine whether the intruder is armed and I believe most if put in this position and had the means would kill to save their own life or the lives of their loved ones. As for the intruder, well if they don't want to pay the ultimate price, they should have gotten a job and earned their money rather than steal from others. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:12:39 PM | Mahogany, I meant, as the previous sentence suggests, would you raise an rucus or OBJECTION, or would you simply ACCEPT if a man is imprisoned for killing in self defense... The analogy of the GST is similar, did you OBJECT in any way, or bend over and ACCEPT it? Dont want to go off topic Mahogany, sorry you missed it...
Appreciate your input Dallas, but I think you have the death penalty as well!
I think we have way less highway rage shootings because guns arent as handy, but yeah, the cops and criminals are the ones toting guns, and those damn tasers...
Us tax paying, aphids whose only job is to provide the money to pay for the politiciants, yeah pun intended, are too stupid to carry around guns because they
can be taken away so easily from our persons or homes...
Less guns, less shootings, but criminals dont usually go to homes for guns,
they go for cash and pawnable stuff, and bring their own easily obtainable guns.
Or they blitz a dealer for drugs, cash and guns...
Locking up guns is a good idea, but in the middle of the night, by the time the cops
find where I live and the dispatcher gets a hold of a car and the rookie gets directions, the criminal is long gone... I have a police scanner, I know how it goes... sigh... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:15:47 PM | The (correct) answer is "it depends".
It depends on the laws of your state or provence.
It's actually harder to kill somebody in self defense and get away with it than most people think. Except in Colorado.
In the majority of cases the law says "if the guys stealing your tv, let him have it" and places a much higher value on a human (even a criminal) than it does over an easily replaceable inanimate object.
There's a webpage out there someplace that clarifies exactly what you can and cannot do per state. Bottom line: don't shoot first, ever. They want you to get the hell out and let the cops handle it. If your shot at you can shoot back unless the guy is running away; people have been convicted of manslaughter in that case.
All this talk of "somebody messed me over and they're going down" will get you a manslaughter charge. Except in Colorado. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:30:37 PM | Dantaries, ummmm I didn't miss the point, and to answer your question no I welcome the GST because it got rid of the MST at 13.5% off topic.
On topic, its the age old question, does more guns kill people or people with guns kill people? to me hand guns should be banned , only law enforcement/military should have these guns, anyone else should have them taken away and destroyed, of course if you did that you would have given organized crime another lucrative racket. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:51:42 PM | mahoganyrush. If anyone has been proven to be irresponsible with guns, its certainly law enforcement and the military.
I think its clearly murder, unless you're protecting yourself. You do not have the right shoot someone for stealing your stereo or some other piece of property. That is simply ridiculous and a mindset like that is highly destructive.
But when in rome, do as the romans do... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:53:40 PM | | As an englishman i would ask politely ask them to leave. If they still do not leave i will ask them again. But if they touch my jack russel puppy then i get nasty. So im going with self defence. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:55:26 PM | | Let me add that im speaking from a pesonal moral perspective, and you may in fact "have the right" to in your state, but anyone who derives their morals and values from the legislation of our government should reconsider their mindset. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 1:56:35 PM | I wouldn't deal where I slept, If I did. For the obvious reason of a "police"home invasion. As for home invaders in general..... they may meet 
An armed society is a polite society....... WWHD......? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 2:14:45 PM | Which Military you talking about?
The Canadian Army were called out twice sence 1970 with the war measures act. FLQ crisis in the 70's. Okaka (SP) in the 90's. Two other times were the 76 and 88 Olympics for security.
I do not remember any soldier shooting any Canadian civilian in Canada at any time. | |
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