| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 11:36:18 AM | i am not going to pretend to be a scientist or claim that i have anything more than a basic understanding of the LHC. for some reason this concept scares the crap out of me. my instincts tell me  , we are playing with fire. can someone explain to me why its safe and that there is nothing to worry about? i feel like they are going to create a black hole and destroy earth and our galaxy as we know it. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:16:30 PM | | i will attempt to elaborate on a subject i have very limited knowledge on. the LHC is a particle accelerator and collider. a 27 kilometer round tunnel like structure. i guess the purpose of it is to smash protons? into each other and in turn attempt to create conditions similar to the beginning of time or the first moments after the initial bang. from what i have heard the big bang is estimated to have happened around 16 billion years ago and through our best efforts (humanity) we have gotten to around 400,000 years of this event but no closer. we are trying to learn what turns energy into mass. the higgs mechanism. so what if we go all through this and no higgs boson is detected what then? how much faith can we have in the scientific theory if it is incomplete? do we really think that this is going to explain everything to us and a grand unified theory will be revealed? are we on the verge of turning energy into mass or are we on the verge of self destruction | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:34:06 PM | | No worries. Gravitatational collapse isn't going to happen by slamming clusters of protons into each other. You would need about 1.4 solar masses or about 333,000 times the mass of the earth to produce a force that would cause a perpetual collapse of a singularities' Schwarzschild radius . | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:49:41 PM | | we could potentially be creating black holes or micro black holes. the expected collapse of them is theoretical and other theories exist that claim differing rates of size created with less energy and differing rates of decay. are people who understand the subject in more detail comfortable that nothing cataclysmic will occur. how can we be so sure that everything will be fine? its not everyday we create black holes, micro or not. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 3:00:26 PM | | Nothing cataclysmic will occur. There isn't enough dark matter in the proton to cause anything near a single megaton. According to the proposed tests they're looking along the lines of 500-1200 pounds of TnT if I remember correctly. Also they aren't pushing the proton clusters in a continuous beam. I beleive they're 12 nano seconds apart. This is far from a sustained collapse. This project is going to be Europ's main source of dark matter research so the risks are minimal considering the proposed knowledge that can be gained. Also, as I mentioned above, we don't have enough mass on earth to create a sustainable black hole. Fission is a bit touchy but they are using a non-critical fission technique. The LHC is a prototype engine for the future of space travel and for clean energy. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 3:23:35 PM | | before i started researching i wouldnt even have known what you were talking about but because its fresh in my mind i actually understood. the proposed energy output is 10gj or the equivalent to 2500 tons of tnt the protons are being fired in bunches. when first commissioned there are going to be fewer bunches in crossing intervals of every 75 nano seconds and eventually there will be increased bunches of protons with crossing intervals of 25 nano seconds. i hope you are right about the nothing cataclysmic will happen statement. i just wish i understood the subject enough to feel as confident as you do | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 3:38:06 PM | http://today.slac.stanford.edu/feature/2007/dm-whats-out-there.asp
That article gives a little insight into how important this project is to dark matter research.
It's also an inportant project in condensed matter physics research. Which is probably why the project is getting funded. With the latest advances in nanoelectromechanical systems this project just makes sense. Before MRI we weren't really in a position to gain any knowledge through these experiments though they were theoretically possible. I'm not sure what temperatures they are proposing these tests at but at around 0.002 kelvin they should be able to nail down dark matter and possibly learn to produce it. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 3:46:36 PM | | The short answer is that LHC, like all colliders, isn't doing anything which doesn't happen naturally anyway. It just accelerates the rate of collisions at a particular place where we can study them. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/17/2008 5:27:54 PM | | I thought he was concerned about the size. It will be the largest with the largest proton clusters to date. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 7:49:42 AM | I think the important thing to remember too is that miniature black holes aren't all that uncommon. They open and close every day in potentially millions of places where cosmic rays collide with atoms and particles in the atmosphere. They close just as quickly as they form, and essentially are infinitely harmless.
Nothing to see here at the LHC. As you were. Carry about your business as usual. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 8:04:06 AM | | there is another part of the story that i found very interesting and that was about other dimensions. could someone explain how the LHC would potentially reveal other dimensions to us. one day they are doing an experiment and the all of a sudden we are seeing in four dimensions? dark matter, black holes,higgs rison and revealing unseen dimensions. is the LHC being to heavily hyped to possible answer any or all of these questions? | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 9:11:24 AM | There are various theories which explain the shape of the universe by invoking multiple dimensions in different ways. It's possible to predict the existence of certain kinds of particles from some of those theories, then look to see if they exist.
All these "experiments" are actually multiple experiments looking for different things. Within a collaboration of hundreds of people there will be dozens of sub-groups.
Some look for sexy new particles that are expected to exist; the Higgs boson seems still to be everybody's favourite target. Indeed, it seems to be presented as the only justification for these huge facilities sometimes, which might help get funding but is a bit disingenuous since the most interesting possible outcome for the Higgs mechanism would be proof that it's wrong.
Some other subgroups try to verify or disprove alternative theories. These range from more immediately disprovable stuff like supersymmetry to far-out string theory predictions. Although useful, it tends to be unrewarding work, so doesn't attract as many people as the other subjects.
Most people in most groups (by far?) are making more mundane but useful measurements to map out the actual properties of what we know to exist - decay rates and properties of various particle states. The numbers from that get plugged back into models and theories to make new predictions which make more cycles of these experiments possible, and more solid numbers are what ultimately make it possible to make the sexy discoveries that get the headlines. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 9:30:51 AM | So far, no problems.
Cosmic rays routinely collide with the atmosphere at energies thousands to millions of times higher than the LHC will produce. That's why shielding of electronics and humans in orbit is so important.
Although an occasional cancer or birth defect would seem to be a likely effect of resulting particle showers that reach the surface. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 9:43:41 AM | Ummmmmm we're already past the date that all the doomsayers were saying was going to be the end of the world.
Earth and the galaxy are still here. Move along. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 10:01:46 AM | | ummmmm i am just asking some questions about a subject i find very interesting and know very little about. im not a doomsayer. unless the test run on the LHC is on december 21, 2012 then im not exceedingly worried about it. i appreciate the positive feedback this post has generated so far, it has helped comfort me somewhat. as with most subjects, my lack of knowledge was what made it scary. the more i learn about the subject the more comfortable i become. but seriously what about revealing new dimensions with this experiment. can anyone explain that in laymans terms how that might be possible? | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 6:50:21 PM | As I recall, there are many models of quantum interaction that require more than the standard 4 dimensions we perceive (3 + time) for everything to "add up" properly. Some of these models are mutually exclusive, and many make different predictions of the reactions they can test. It's a bit of a process of elimination, with the possibility to eliminate all existing models as viable candidates. And if that happens, at least we'll have some observations to start making models that actually work. I did a quick check of the time line, and they should be doing full power tests in about 3 months, and experiments beginning a couple months later.
And kudos on choosing to deal with your fear by learning about what you were afraid of. I wish that attitude were contagious. | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/18/2008 11:19:53 PM |
but seriously what about revealing new dimensions with this experiment. can anyone explain that in laymans terms how that might be possible?
Coincidently, I ran across a few videos on google that you (and others) may find interesting. PBS did a series on string theory called "The Elegant Universe"...after the book. If you've got three hours to kill....
Part 1: Einsteins Universe
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2oetc2
Part 2: Strings the Thing
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2ox9uz
Part 3: Welcome to the 11th dimention
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2tla9c | |
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| the LHC, the large hadron collider
Posted: 1/20/2008 9:35:13 AM | As far as I can see theres nothing to worry about in regards to the LHC.
Its just another big atom smasher. They have been doing it for years. | |
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