| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/4/2008 5:26:06 PM | I would like to know why there are people who believe that all Pagans are into BDSM. I would also like to know why people believe that we worship Satan.
I would like to know why people consider my interests to be scary. I am just as normal as anyone else I just happen to chose to worship in a different way. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/4/2008 5:40:13 PM | | Ignorance of the facts are the usual reasons. Fear of the unknown? Who knows. It has always been and it probably always will be. People just usually react knee jerk to things they aren't familiar with. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:03:03 PM | BDSM? sorry dont know what you mean.
Most people fear the the unknown and believe the storys that hit the headlines now and again are true. Just like the story last week of the goth couple who got kicked off a bus because the girl was wearing a dog lead and collar. Never in 20 over years of going to see goth bands and gigs have I ever seen someone on lead ffs lol. Now I get asked evertime I walk down the street in my new rocks where my girl on a lead is. Same with being a pagan if some one those something out of the norm and happens to be a pagan, then it gets type cast on all pagans.
Being a Wiccan im always getting the Satan thing thrown at me. When will they learn if you dont believe in god why would you believe in Satan? 
Bleesed Be | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 9:09:40 AM |
Being a Wiccan im always getting the Satan thing thrown at me. When will they learn if you dont believe in god why would you believe in Satan?
How can we clear up the worlds misconceptions when we so clearly have our own.
So IMO, no. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 9:59:17 AM | | People fear what they don't understand. Most people don't understand Pagans, for a number of reasons. One of the bigger ones is because of Hollywood. The only frame of reference some of these people have is what they see on TV and in movies. So by default, they assume Pagans are similar to what Hollywood portrays us to be. Another reason is Satanists. They call themselves Pagan, and they use pagan symbols (although in my opinion a Satanist is a merely rebellious Christian - Satan is originally a christian concept) But like i said, they call themselves pagans and use pagan symbols. Think about this. Satanists appear in the news more often because of things they have done or have claimed to do. Wiccans, Witches and other Pagans don't generally bother anyone, so there is no news story to report. So that leaves the people who know nothing about it with the wrong impression every time they hear the word Pagan, or Witch, or see our symbols. to Top this all off. Most people where raised in some organised religion. And most of those religions teach them to be afraid of the unknown. and teach them to fear Pagans. So unfortunately in every arena it seems we have this stigma working against us. As for the BDSM, It seems (however that doesn't mean it's true, but it sees to be true) A great majority of people who participate in that activity seem to call themselves Pagan. And to a degree it makes sense to me. Pagans, most of the time, are more open minded. Therefore, Pagans are more open to new or taboo experience. This is not to say all pagans, or only pagans are into BDSM (I am an ordained pagan reverend myself, I don't practice BDSM). And I am not judging anyone for anything. I am just stating what I have seen over the years. It is just verry hard for people to understand us (pagans) when all the info they seem to have about us is negative. And that negative portrayal never seems to be contradicted by us. And partially that is our own fault. A lot of Pagan people are verry secretive. And that is fine, that is a personal choice. However, If we all remain so secretive, than we can not dispel the myths about us that are already out there. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 10:13:05 AM | I've never heard that pagans are supposedly into BDSM.
Ignorance will exist in all places. I'm currently dating a Wiccan, so I've had a few misconceptions cleared up in recent times. She also had misconceptions about Christianity. And certainly, in the first centuries of Christianity, there were many misconceptions held by the Roman pagans that Christians were atheists, or that they worshipped a crucified donkey, or that they practiced cannibalism in the catacombs. The latter came from a confusion over the Eucharist: the eating and drinking of the Body and Blood of Christ. But this is one reason why the early Christians were persecuted by the pagan majority at that time.
About Satan-worship, the short answer is that Christians (I assume the Satan-worship claim comes mostly from Christians and perhaps other monotheists like Jews and Muslims) believe there are two sources of supernatural power in this world: God and the heavenly host, and Satan and his angels. To illustrate what I mean, let's say that a pagan successfully casts a spell and attributes it to either himself or a pagan deity. Since there are no pagan gods or "chi" in Christian theology, the power for the spell came from Satan.
In that sense, the primary difference in Christian theology between a saint who works miracles and a witch/warlock who casts spells is that one draws his power from God, and the other draws it from Satan, even though the latter might believe it comes from elsewhere.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, a similar belief would necessarily exist in paganism. If a pagan sees a Christian saint healing, walking on water, or suffering stigmata, I don't think the pagan could believe his power came from the Christian God. He may believe it came from a "father god" like the Horned God, but that still isn't the same as the Christian God. Thus, the pagan at least indirectly believes that the Christian saint is actually worshipping or is having his prayers answered by a pagan god of some sort. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 11:10:29 AM | | But most Pagans dont actually know what they are themselves. They just put the label on themselves to avoid deeper questions. I know a practising Christian Witch of Jewish extraction who labels herself as pagan. I know Goths who label themselves as Pagan and havent a clue about the old religions. Its been popularised as a term. Blame Buffy and Charmed. Sometimes I wear a pentagram ring ... sometimes other thngs but I'm not a classic pagan by any means. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 5:30:13 PM |
I would like to know why there are people who believe that all Pagans are into BDSM.
I've never heard this stereotype before, but now that I think of it most of the people I've known who are into BDSM have been pagans. Of course pagan is an extremely broad term. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:12:06 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Jacobus101 >
In that sense, the primary difference in Christian theology between a saint who works miracles and a witch/warlock who casts spells is that one draws his power from God, and the other draws it from Satan, even though the latter might believe it comes from elsewhere.
You used the term "warlock" here as in casting spells. This is incorrect. A "warlock" is NOT a male witch. The term "warlock" was coined by the Catholic Religion back in the dark ages. A warlock was a person that the Catholics recruited to infiltrate Witch Covens and spy on them. That term has been misconstrued as being a male witch. Male Witches are called (of all things!) Witches! Male, or Female...a Witch is a Witch!
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:22:58 PM | | ^^^ This is true... I learned this when I was practicing in my early teens... I was stood corrected as I thought warlock just sounded better, lol... I was/am ignorant of the whole picture of Paganism... Am trying to learn more. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:44:27 PM | here are myth conceptions i have heard:
calling someone a pagan or witch a warlock (a warlock is an insult, means untrustworthy backstabber)
calling pagans heathens (a heathen is farmer)
Pagan's worship the devil: good and evil are concepts of the church to scare people into following them
the pentagram is a symbol of the devil. A 5-pointed star with the points inside the circle is a pentagram, and used for invocation (what witches use). A 5-pointed star with points outside the circle is a pentacle, and this is used for evocation (or summoning).
a 5-pointed star reversed is a symbol for the devil. sometimes when witches wear one upside down it can refer to winter and fall seasons, while the point up refers to the summer and spring seasons. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:46:18 PM | I can't find a single reputable source (or a disreputable one either!) that agrees with your definition. I looked because it was contrary to what I knew and appeared somewhat fanciful. Do you have any cites or sources that support it? Lacking anything to support your definition, I think Jacobus used the word correctly:
Well, here is a site which says the reason male witches aren't considered warlocks to witches... And really, they should be the ones to make the distiction, no?
Whatever the meaning, some witches do find the term highly offensive, when incorrectly applied to them.
http://www.paranormality.com/warlock.shtml
Google is your friend | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 9:36:05 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
We (us Wiccans) are aware of the meanings of the term "warlock" and many of us do take offense by being called that and we don't apply that to a male wtich. To us...a male witch is a witch....nothing else. I was told that the term warlock came from the Catholic Religion by the one who taught me the ways of Wicca. It is quite possible that she could have been wrong?
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 15 | |
| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/5/2008 11:53:22 PM | | I have to disagree Mr Bad .. a pentagram is just a 5 pointed star, in a circle its a pentacle. The 5 points refer to the 4 elements and spirit the circle references the divine. Never come across one with points outside the circle unless you mean a circle within the central pentagon, that could be used for summoning. 2 points upwards indicates the Horned God, but its also the symbol for a second dregree witch. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 12:07:12 AM | Anyway, you'll have to excuse my desire for accuracy and proof, and let me stay with four -- no, make that five (OED) -- non-partisan sources. Jacobus used the word correctly. His use is supported by non-partisan authoritative sources (dictionaries).
Dictionaries aren't always correct... If a word is used to describe a certain type of person and that type of person is offended by that word it is nothing short of an insult... That is wrong... As in incorrect or better yet, inaccurate.
Besides, you said you couldn't find a source... Funny that, as I found a few on my first try!
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 12:20:18 AM | Ugh. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Several pagans have both stated that the term 'warlock' is offensive and offered their perspective on the term and its origins. That should be enough.
Would you dare to try and debate the origins- or contend the offensiveness- of the word "n1gger" with a black person? No. It is a term that is so obviously taboo that even attempting to do so would be a deeply insulting act.
Are you a witch? I'm guessing no. So if a witch tells you the word 'warlock' is offensive, what the HELL makes you think that your opinion- regardless of what it is based on- is somehow more correct? Such arrogance.
Determining factor in what is, or is not, offensive is the intrinsic group: just as caucasians cannot declare the word "chinky" to be innocuous, neither can a non-witch declare a witch term to be inoffensive. This is called civility.
It seems to me that apologies are in order. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 1:13:08 AM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
The Pentagram: The Pentagram is a five pointed star and is usually seen sitting on two points and most of them are within a circle. If seen sitting on one point this does not necessarily mean Devil worship, or Satanists. Each point of the Pentagram means something. The upper most point = Spirit. The left and right center points = Fire and Water. The two lower points = Air and Earth. These too are variable.
This symbol has been used by many religions including the Christians. It is one of the oldest religious symbols on the planet and it predates all of the known symbols. And there is nothing evil about it. As we became less tribal and more nomadic and new religions were formed the Pentagram was first used, then a new symbol took its place.
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 19 | |
| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 2:54:45 AM | | I have to disagree Two Hawks, its doesnt predate all of the others. The two oldest are 'X' and the Yin-Yang, possibly the 8 pointed star as well. Ying Yang is actually derived from the shadow path of the plough, and 'X' is a precursor to Yin Yang representing the 4 worlds. The pentagram comes from the path of Venus through the sky, but it does so over an eight years cycle hence the 8 pointed star, as far as I remember. The 8 pointed is known various as the star of Ishtar, its modern equivalent is the star of Chaos but it earliest usages were as the symbols of Enki and Innana, and its also seen in norse carvings. Its more of a ray configuration and may point to a sun god type of origin. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 4:23:01 AM | Two Hawks said:
You used the term "warlock" here as in casting spells. This is incorrect. A "warlock" is NOT a male witch. The term "warlock" was coined by the Catholic Religion back in the dark ages. A warlock was a person that the Catholics recruited to infiltrate Witch Covens and spy on them. That term has been misconstrued as being a male witch. Male Witches are called (of all things!) Witches! Male, or Female...a Witch is a Witch!
If a male witch doesn't want to be referred to as a warlock, that's fine with me. I used it in the dictionary sense of the term, if there was any confusion about it. I'm personally skeptical of the bit about infiltrating witches' covens, though.
In regard to potentially offensive terms, I've actually grown fond of the word "papist" and related words. Because of it, the Catholic blog that I publish is called "Wanton Popery!"
Last comment for now. MrBad_Kitty said:
Pagan's worship the devil: good and evil are concepts of the church to scare people into following them
Sorry, dude, but that's just exchanging one misconception for another. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 7:30:47 AM | | Someone already touched on this, but most people only know about pagan beliefs from what they see on TV and in movies. Like anything else learned from that medium, they are going to have a few misconceptions and stereotypes tossed into the mix. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 9:43:08 AM |
Will you now lead by example or be a hypocrite, and stop using the expression "what the HELL" because it offends my sensibilities and the sensibilities of many in the faith group of which I am a part?
That's different than labelling someone something offensive to them... Saying what the Hell, may be offensive to your sensibilities, but that isn't attacking your charactor like calling someone a name which means backstabber... When you know you're being hurtful by calling someone something and proceed to do it anyways... That's so not cool.
What if I were to jump on the bandwagon and call folks who practise a certain religion sheep? Would you dig that? I kinda doubt it. | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 12:43:15 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Msg 24 > Nergal
I thank you, sir, for pointing that out to me! It was always my understanding that the Pentagram was the oldest. I have learned something! I dare NOT to bring another original religious symbol into this thread. That symbol being the Swastika. This was NOT an invention by Nazi Germany. I will discuss that privately, but not in a public forum.
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick | |
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| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 1:09:07 PM |
I would like to know why there are people who believe that all Pagans are into BDSM. I would also like to know why people believe that we worship Satan.
There is a Pagan/BDSM subculture which is rather highly visible; the public likes convenient and easy labels, so the two are merged in the public eye. Since there have been some relatively high-profile witches who are lesbian, one often sees an assumption by the public that any female Pagan must also be a lesbian.
The Satanism accusation goes a little deeper, I think. From what I've observed, it's more than bad PR, it's active propaganda, and more than one Christian church is guilty of spreading it.
The whole warlock debate seems to be off-topic, but there is one comment made that needs a response:
So if a witch tells you the word 'warlock' is offensive, what the HELL makes you think that your opinion- regardless of what it is based on- is somehow more correct? Such arrogance
Calling oneself a witch does NOT automatically make one an expert on the English language. As has been pointed out, a warlock is by definition a male witch, and that's a fact, not an opinion - a fact which no amount of insulting ranting can change. In the same vein, what the HELL makes you think you can tell anybody else what they're allowed to post? THAT is real arrogance - and attempting to equate "warlock" with "ni--er" is both arrogant and highly offensive. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 25 | |
| Pagan misconceptions, can we clear them up?
Posted: 2/6/2008 1:58:10 PM | | I dont see why not, I know of about 40 plus variations on the Swastika. The Nazis took one, out of context and gave it bad press. Dates back to about 3000 BC, but not in common usage until about 1000Bc. In both Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley regions. Its one of those basic patterns. Hard to actually equate with a religion of belief system, because of its simplicity. It might have been a simple decoration. The star patterns on the other hand, and Yin Yang both have origins in astronomical observations. | |
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