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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 4:42:08 AM | {QUOTE "Irish pub, French language watchdog battle over vintage signs, service
By Sidhartha Banerjee, THE CANADIAN PRESS
Rick Fon, co-owner of McKibbin's Irish Pub in downtown Montreal, enjoys an Irish brew on Friday. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Ian Barrett
MONTREAL - It appears a few pints of beer won't be sufficient to douse the latest language tensions brewing in Montreal - this time, Quebec's language watchdog is frothing over a popular watering hole cluttered with classic Irish signage and English-only posters.
The wall hangings at McKibbin's Irish Pub include vintage advertisements for Guinness and Harp as well as other traditional fare like Palethorpes Pork Pies.
The owners of the popular hangout say it all just adds to the charm and ambience of the downtown watering hole.
Still, the Office quebecois de la langue francaise says complaints about the English-only signs, an English-only chalkboard menu and English-only service prompted it to send the pub owners a letter wanting answers.
"What we asked them were what measures would be taken to ensure that service would be offered in French because we received two complaints," Office spokesman Gerald Paquette said in an interview Friday.
"If the business says some of those pictures are decorative to give the pub an Irish flavour, it is certain we would exempt them from the charter rules," Paquette said. "But there were other posters also, notably ones about contests and events, that were in English only."
The brewhaha has prompted the pub's co-owners to extend an invite to Premier Jean Charest to stop by for a hearty meal and a pint and inspect the signs himself.
Dean Laderoute and Rick Fon say they'll remove the signs if Charest believes they violate the Quebec language law.
"An Irish pub without these decorations is just an empty box," Fon said in an interview. "It's the decor, the pictures, the clutter, it creates the warmth."
Fon also says they have bilingual menus and that his regulars, including a considerable French clientele, all agree the complaints are ridiculous.
"It makes no sense, it's silly," said regular Suzette L'Abbe.
"The staff, if not French-speaking to begin with, get by in French," L'Abbe added.
The pub could face fines as high as $1,500 for each infraction.
The pub skirmish is the latest battle over the question of whether there is enough French spoken in downtown Montreal.
The ever-bubbling issue of language has resurfaced in recent months, beginning with a report in Le Journal de Montreal about the ease of obtaining employment downtown with a limited knowledge of French.
Other controversies have included the language of instruction for tots in day care and the use of English on the automated call-answering systems of Quebec government departments.
The debate promises to get even more heated next month when the language watchdog releases a study on language trends in the province.
Paquette says McKibbin's has 30 days to come up with answers and if the issue goes further, a legal warning would be sent and Quebec's attorney general would decide on penalties and fines.
English-rights activist Gary Shapiro believes the whole language pot started stirring again with the so-called reasonable accommodation debate and has been fuelled since by politicians and a small group of malcontents.
"It's basic harassment," said Shapiro.
"Are they going to come into our homes and our bedrooms next?," Shapiro asked. "Where is it going to end?"
The Office quebecois de la langue francaise is investigating a pub in downtown Montreal for English-only signs promoting Irish beers such as "Harp" and "Caffrey." Here are some other cases over the years that have attracted the interest of the language watchdog or people seeking to protect the French language:
1996: - A woman warns the owner of a Quebec pet store she might get in touch with language authorities because Peekaboo, the parrot she wanted to buy, didn't speak French.
1999:- The Old Navy chain is asked to rename its stores "La Vieille Riviere." It never happens.
2000: - The owner of an Indian restaurant is told he's breaking the law by having coasters for "Double Diamond," a British beer.
2001: Some people express disappointment that race-car driver Jacques Villeneuve calls his restaurant "Newtown."
2005:Language authorities say they will investigate complaints that Montreal Mayor Gerald Tremblay's party used the word "Go" on its posters and pamphlets, as in "Go Montreal."
2007: - Imperial Oil says it will keep its Quebec-only "Marche Express" name for its Esso gas stations after protests surfaced regarding a proposal to change the name to "On The Run" as they are known elsewhere in North America.
2007: About 50 people protest outside a Second Cup outlet to demonstrate against the words "Les cafes" being dropped from "Les cafes Second Cup" at some of the chain's outlets.
2007: Language activists decry the fact that callers to many Quebec government offices are told to "press nine" for English before instructions are delivered in French. Some of the departments have since changed the message to put English at the end. "END OF QUOTE}
I travel to Montreal quite frequently , my favourite week end getaway is Quebec City. This law though bugs me quite a bit. In a free country, I should be able to choose to run my business in any language that I choose to. If that is Mandarin, German, that should be my right. If no one understands my staff, signs, menues, then the only one to lose is my self ,as I wont have any customers, easy as that in a free market society!
Quebec is part of Canada , and as such this is a disgrace to our country, that in the interests of Political Correctness, freedoms are allowed to be erroded. If someone doesnt like it, the choice is easy, just dont patronise the establishment and dont spend your money there!
Just the term " language police" rings up visions of a "Orwellian nature" . Why is this intrusion into basic rights and freedoms being tolerated in a "free country' like Canada? Ludicrous is what this is, talk about a "victimless" crime. Makes the Quebec people seem so trivial, which I know they are not. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 4:55:11 AM | Well, this hits close to home.
This latest incident is actually quite silly. Let's make an Irish pub.....less Irish. 
( And the Irish intermarried FAR more with French Canadians than the English and Scots did.)
On the other hand, I do agree with the fact that the French language needs to be protected in the ocean of English that surrounds it. That has to be done properly though. Idiotic government officials are certainly not exceptional things, worldwide. This is the case here.
I wish someone would do a nice little article about how Quebec nationalist politicians send their kids to private English/bilingual schools. I wonder why ? 
In fact, one of the best ways to spot a really die hard nationalist is by how well they speak English ....Pauline Marois being a notable exception. With that huge raging threat that, to her, is threatening French at every turn...she seems to have escaped it's grasp. .
In fact the greatest danger to Quebec culture and society comes from within. In just the last two decades the global media reach has transformed much of Quebec societies uniqueness into a pale imitation of the general Americanized one.
We use to be very distinct, with TV shows that were as different as night and day to even English Canada, much less the America model. That's almost all gone now, and we have bad copies of "Big Brother" , "American Idol", and almost every other show you can think of.
It's the same with our music scene. We went from "Beau Dommage" to bad copies of Britney Spears.
We have met the enemy, and it is us.  | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 7:42:47 AM | ( QUOTE "On the other hand, I do agree with the fact that the French language needs to be protected in the ocean of English that surrounds it. That has to be done properly though. Idiotic government officials are certainly not exceptional things, worldwide. This is the case here" END OF QUOTE
- very understandable, I agree. How ever forcing business to use a certain language is not appropriate in a free market / democratic society. LOL, you sure have that right about the idiotic govermnets not just being found in Quebec! Have to shake my head at least twice a week over the insane things that pop up in Torontos City council.
For 12 years I lived in a French Canadian Town called Sturgeon Falls Ontario. The French language is thriving there, yet without the draconian laws that the province of Quebec has on its language.
[ QUOTE "I wish someone would do a nice little article about how Quebec nationalist politicians send their kids to private English/bilingual schools. I wonder why ? 'END OF QUOTE }
- Wonder why they send their kids there? For the same reason I encouraged my kids to learn French and the one with language talent , Spanish and Japanese. To give them an advantage in this world is why.
It astounds me that any parent wouldnt encourage their kids to learn as many languages as possible. Especially French and English. My own French is rather poor, doing business with people in Montreal, I am sad that I cant communicate in French as well as they can in English. Protection of French language / culture though should not be an excuse to walk over the rights of freedom of choice.
Like Montreal guy said, make an Irish Pub less Irish, really is going over the top. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 8:51:46 AM |
In a free country, I should be able to choose to run my business in any language that I choose to.
Unfortunately, in Quebec, this freedom does not apply.
Quebec is part of Canada
For now. If Quebec separates, the rights of minority languages will be further diminished.
Why is this intrusion into basic rights and freedoms being tolerated in a "free country' like Canada?
The Notwithstanding Clause. You are probably forced to call it the Clause Non Obstante.
Makes the Quebec people seem so trivial, which I know they are not.
Considering that Quebequois consider themselves an oppressed people, the jury's still out on this one. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 9:42:37 AM | | French people are the most racist/bigoted I have ever been exposed to in my life. Nothing disgusts me more than attending a family reunion, it makes me ashamed of being a french Canadian. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 7:38:21 PM | Hehehe...like the Chinatown district in Montreal being told they had to change their signs...and the community told the language police to stuff it! Or Else...meaning they would all move down the road to Toronto, and leave their despot gov't to flounder with their own crap.
Does french need to be "protected"? No. No language does. The Romans tried that with Latin...didn't work them, won't work for Quebec. Don't believe me? Go ahead...ask any Roman...oh, yeah...they're gone, aren't they?
Like any other society, they want their language kept...fine...keep it. But make sure the kids get the option of either using it, or not. English is the international language of business and next year elementary children in French schools will have mandatory English classes throughout the province. (Many already do teach it!)
"French first" in Quebec...why not? French is the predominant language east of Montreal in the province.
I know some young adults who don't have a chance outside of Quebec with no English. A skilled carpenter can't even pick up work out west cause of the language barrier...so he's learning it out there at a temporay job...as dishwasher. So is his sister. Once they have it, they'll do far better.
Like many languages...many teach the kids at home, and at "schools" set up for them to practice their language and customs from their forefathers. (Usually after regular school or on weekends.) No reason for French to die out. It is a nice language to hear. Quebec has a **stardization between French and English anyways...nothing "pure" about the French language in Quebec! But...there are some families that will not allow their kids to marry outside of "pur sang Quebecois!" (pure blooded French Canadians). (same as any other minority in Canada.)
The "language police" need to be disbanded...allow business to actually DO business in whatever language they want...as long as the workers continue to have the right to work in French. Fine....it isn't going to make any difference on a production line anyways. Nor in an office dealing with businesses within Quebec or where ever else French is being spoken.
It is going to make a difference to an Irish Pub...or an English teahouse..or whatever. It is up to the management to decide what they wish....certainly not up to gov't to dictate what will be!
Notice McDoh's has "cheeseburger" on their menu? Why? Special dispensation...cause they are a major employer in the province. If a "mom and pops" tried that on their menu...why, they could have a problem with the language police.... | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/16/2008 7:48:40 PM | First of all it's a political game for control - as such things always are.
Quebec is an almost totally French province, with the major exception being Montreal. In the city where I grew up (Quebec City) the English population used to represent perhaps ten percent of the total, and now it's almost extinct.
You take a few other places, like the Eastern Townships, and you'll find larger groupings of English speakers, but still a minority.
The essence of the Quiet Revolution, it's real intent, was to bring control to the working classes to a much larger extent. That's been changed over time, and the end result was that the transfer of power was switched between Westmount to Outremont. 
The Church dominated French Canadians far more than any other factor socially. It ran every part of their lives, with almost complete control. That only changed when the Quiet Revolution released them from it's grasp. It was only then they made progress.
Take any Catholic country , in that time period, and you will see Catholics having more children - and sending their best into the priesthood, or to become nuns. That was one of the best things to have happen, socially, for a family. That doesn't lead to higher incomes, applied generation after generation.
People like Marois and Parizeau are , at their heart, aristocrats. They live in large expensive houses, and have expensive tastes. Someone like Parizeau favours Saville Row suits in the finest British tradition. He's perhaps the only Quebecer I've ever heard use the expression "By Jove."
The problem now for the nationalists is that the issue of separatism is almost dead in the water. The PQ suffered quite a humiliating defeat at the polls, recently. It's gone from number one to number three almost overnight. Even the Bloc Quebecois is having problems.
There's the source of the problem, right there. Unless the waters get stirred up, there's little to gain.
As for French Canadians, I certainly do not agree with the posters above me. I've lived here all my life, and consider myself Quebecois. This is my home.
French Canadians assisted the Irish when we first arrived here, and many sacrificed their lives caring for cholera victims. The Irish, as I've said before, intermarried with French Canadians at rather high levels. I had a French Canadian wife.
I've found them to be exceptional people, warm and friendly, overall. I can't think of a better group to share my life with. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 10:21:03 AM | I have never found French Canadians to be anymore or less , racist or bigoted than any other group.
Having been married to a French Canadian for 22 years, I have witnessed bigotry toward her( one time from a person from France?) , at the very hands of people I knew who made claims about the French being that way! Also, having worked and lived with French Canadians for 2 years in the 70`s and then for 12 years in the 80`s , early 90`s, all I can say is hogwash to that claim.
Sure some , small percentage are for sure, but then have met racist / bigotted English as well. Those that travel to Montreal and complain about not being given good service, are sometimes mis reading a natural shyness some of them have as being " haughty " I think.
When I first moved to a predominately French Town , I was at first apprehensive for sure. It did not take long though, to meet freinds who have remained as ones to this day, even though I had moved from there back in 1995. As an 'outsider", I was accepted into their community and families ( My ex`s family are still very caring and freindly with me) and am very thankfull for those that I met. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 10:38:10 AM | My mother's family is Acadian and was expunged to Louisiana. At one time it was illegal to speak French there or even Cajun. You had to speak English because you were in an English speaking country. Now is is all the rage to be Cajun adn speak French or Cajun. But the US now want to make everything bi-lingual Spanish. Signs are everywhere. Go figure. I heard a man say that people who come to this country should learn to speak the language. I told him I was sure the Indians felt the same way.
Since I am Half Irish, I say let the Irish Pub be Irish. But then I am not Canadian, so I guess my opinion is just that.........my own. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 12:29:01 PM |
I've found them to be exceptional people, warm and friendly, overall. I can't think of a better group to share my life with.
I have to agree with that.
My mother is a French Canadian, my father was english so I was brought up in both cultures and speak both languages fluently. I understand the desire for Quebec to be without prejudice towards the French as well as understanding the same desire from the anglos who have decided to remain in Quebec.
The vast majority of people in quebec have no sympathy for the "separatistes" and their agendas and ridicule these silly attempts to have english removed from the province. I think the pendulum has swung too far in one direction and needs to be pulled back to something resembling a saner approach to things.
At the moment Ontario's traffic signs (and assuming most other provinces) are bilingual. The federal govt, the city of Ottawa and surrounding areas offer bilingual services. Workers from Quebec have generally free access to work in Ontario.
The same cannot be said for Quebec. Any tourist who doesn't read french and travels in Quebec puts themselves in danger because of the french only signage... especially in construction areas.
If you are unilingual english speaking ... it is very difficult to find any kind of govt job here in Ontario.
Trying to get licensed to work in Quebec (personal experience) is next to impossible... getting english application forms the same... getting any information in english from bureaucrats the same... it got to so frustrating to deal with, we just gave up, and proceeded to work in quebec anyway and put up with the occasional fines rather than fight thru the paperwork (we tried) and the excessive fees demanded.
Every now and then some of these "french extremists" put up a stink because someone in ontario doesn't post french signs... or want the city of Ottawa or other muncipality to be "officially" bilingual... while just accross the bridge in Quebec ... it's all french only.
I just wish everyone on both sides would just relax and let some common sense prevail. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 12:46:42 PM |
Someone like Parizeau favours Saville Row suits in the finest British tradition. He's perhaps the only Quebecer I've ever heard use the expression "By Jove." "By Jove", is one of the most-English and most-aristocratic phrases one can use, and no-one in the UK uses it anymore, AFAIK.
One interesting thing to note is that the expression is from the Latin. Jove is being Latin for Jupiter, the head of the Roman gods. It's akin to saying "By Zeus".
BTB, my late father's family is Moroccan, so they all speak French. But they have no problem speaking in other languages. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 6:47:27 PM | I lived in Quebec for 7 years, a year in Montreal, which was awesome, and 6 years in the Eastern Townships. For the most part, individual Quebecers were kind to me.
I did find, however, that in the Eastern Townships, there were many on the lower economic scale that were so hateful and ignorant regarding the "English", it made me disgusted. They blamed us for all of their ills (most of them were on welfare, not realizing that Quebec actually received more from the Canadian gov't than they put in), and were very anxious to separate from Canada and their abusers; many of them thought it would be great to be American instead of Canadian. That kind of left me with a rather negative view of some Quebecers, I have to say. These were the types to **** and complain about English on signs, and to call the "sign police". Some of these people refused to have their children learn English, as well, which I thought was very short-sighted. Most of these people had never travelled outside of Quebec, except maybe to Florida, so they never had any actual experience with the "english" they seemed to hate so much. I also found that the newspapers that they read printed rather slanted articles that encouraged their views, that they were being used by Canada.
I had a theory that their separatist government encouraged stereotypes regarding the English, and promoted anti-Canadianism, to get votes. Keeping people riled up and feeling victimized seemed to work for the Bloc for awhile, although since I left Quebec (it's been about 10 years), I think the tide has turned.
When I did live there, I have to say I got my share of parking tickets because all the signs were in French, and often got lost in Montreal because of all French signs. I am sure it causes accidents, having French only signs. I don't think it is smart because basically they are discouraging tourism by being so stubborn on their sign issue, but I know they they honestly believe they are in danger of losing their language and identity. I also know that their laws discourage investment in businesses moving to Quebec because of their strict French language policies - with company names, logos, correspondence, etc all having to be in French. But if that is the price they are willing to pay, that is their choice, isn't it?
I guess to be on topic, I have to say, I agree that the laws are undemocratic, or un-Canadian, but the French use the non-withstanding clause to put these laws through, so technically, they are legal.
(now, MontrealGuy, you can correct me where I am in the wrong... lol) | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/17/2008 7:51:37 PM | ........somebody mentioned that in Quedec they have the "language police"??........
.................
...man.....those french folks never cease to amaze me (if its true!)! | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 2:50:12 AM | 9 quote "The Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF) (Quebec Office of the French language) was established on March 24, 1961, along with the Quebec ministry of Cultural affairs, its mandate being to enforce French as the official and dominant language of Quebec.
Its mandate was enlarged by the 1977 Charter of the French Language, which also established two other organizations: the Commission de toponymie (Commission of Toponymy) and the Conseil supérieur de la langue française (Higher Council of the French Language).
Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Mandate
3 Powers
4 Services
5 Negative perception in English Canada
6 Today
7 See also
8 External links
[edit] History
The Office was originally named Office de la langue française (OLF), and is still occasionally referred to as such. The OLF was renamed OQLF pursuant to the adoption of Law 104 by the Quebec National Assembly on June 12, 2003, which also merged the OLF with the Commission de protection de la langue française (Commission of protection of the French language) and part of the Conseil supérieur de la langue française. In 2004, the organisation had a yearly budget of $17.8 million.
[edit] Mandate
This governmental institution has the following mandate:
To define and apply Quebec's policy pertaining to linguistic officialization, terminology and francization of public administration and businesses;
To provide support so that French is the usual and normal language of work, communications, trade and businesses in the Administration and companies;
To help to define and elaborate the francization programs of the law and to follow the application of it;
To supervise the evolution of the linguistic situation in Quebec and submit a report on it every five years to the minister;
To ensure the respect of the Charter of the French language, acting on its own initiative or following the reception of complaints;
To establish the research programs necessary to the application of the law and to carry out or have carried out the studies needed by these programs.
[edit] Powers
In order to carry out these responsibilities, the office has the powers to:
Take the appropriate measures to enforce the promotion of French.
Assist and inform the Administration, the businesses, individuals and groups concerning the correction and enrichment of the French language.
Receive observations and suggestions on the quality of the language as on the difficulties of application of this law, and to submit a report to the minister on it.
Fine business firms that use English language in instructions, business signs, and advertisements in Quebec.
[edit] Services
Following its mandates, the OQLF offers the following services to the population of Quebec:
Terminological and linguistic opinions;
Online linguistic resources such as the Grand dictionnaire terminologique and the Banque de dépannage linguistique;
Francization counselling
[edit] Negative perception in English Canada
The OQLF was created by the sovereigntist Parti Québécois government as a way to promote the normal use of the French language in Quebec (the only North American jurisdiction with a francophone majority). The OQLF is also one of the most visible manifestations of Quebec's tense linguistic situation and language laws, which, prior to 1988, forbade all use of languages other than French on commercial signage.
The OQLF is sometimes referred to as "The Tongue Troopers" among English-speaking Canadians[citation needed]. The term "Language Police" was first popularized by the American show 60 Minutes, which ran an investigative report on Quebec language laws. Legally, the organization has no police power, although they may impose fines or, in extraordinary situations, shut down businesses. In the majority of the cases, the office will convince businesses that it is in their own financial interests to respect the majority of the customers (who speak French). Generally, businesses opt to cater to francophone customers, as they constitute roughly 80% of the province's population.
However, there have been cases where businesses have been fined and even shut down for violating these laws. According to the statistics of the OQLF, 95% of all complaints by citizens which are judged to be valid are resolved without resorting to legal sanction. In an average year, the OQLF receives between 3000 and 4000 complaints from citizens. Forty to fifty percent of these complaints have to do with commercial products for which there is no available French manual or packaging, 25% have to do with signage in stores, 10% with websites and 5% with the language of service.
[edit] Today
Originally, Law 101 required that all commercial signage be in French and no other language. A 1988 court ruling determined this was unconstitutional. After massive protests in support of the legislation, the Bourassa Government invoked the Notwithstanding Clause, allowing the laws to remain static for a period of 5 years, after which they would be reviewed. In 1993, the United Nations ruled that it was outside of the government's jurisdiction to limit freedom of expression in this particular way. Also in 1993, but not due to the UN ruling, Quebec reviewed the law and modified its language regulations to require that French be markedly predominant on exterior business signs, as suggested by the Supreme Court of Canada ruling in the case of Ford v. Quebec.
[edit] See also
Académie française of France, arbiter of the French language
Charter of the French Language
Ford v. Quebec (A.G.) (1988), (2 S.C.R. 90)
Legal dispute over Quebec's language policy
Minority language
Parti Québécois
Politics of Quebec
Quebec French
[edit] External links
Office québécois de la langue française - Complaint (in French)
The Charter of the French language
Regulations adopted under the Charter of the French language
Bill 101 Background
Infoguides on French language requirements (business, commerce, workplace)
Quebec Statutes and Regulations
FAQ on the respect of linguistic rights (in French)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_de_la_langue_fran%C3%A7aise"
Categories: All articles with unsourced statements | Articles with unsourced statements since March 2007 | Quebec French | Language regulators | Culture of Quebec | Quebec government departments and agencies " END OF QUOTE }
- true, they do exist , from Wikepedia | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 4:52:00 AM | Actually, I don't really have any major issue with the basic idea behind Bill 101. Essentially it just says that French should be the dominant language on any particular signage. As pointed out above, this was a compromise from the original bill whereby no other language was allowed but in any case, today you can have whatever else you want on your signs as long as French is the most pronounced.
This sort of thing does on occasion stir up anti-Quebec sentiment though. In this case, these signs aren't more than vintage decorations and why the language police are going after this pub is unclear. It does often border on ridiculousness when we hear about the latest target of the language police. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand how Bill 101 has managed to survive for as long as it has since it clearly violates the spirit of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms . I admit however that I have never read the Charter in its entirety but I seriously doubt that the people who wrote it had language police in mind when they put pen to paper. On the other hand, this law predates the Charter anyway.
All the same, in principle I'm not against forcing businesses to cater to the majority by displaying their signage in the language of the majority. If we don't do this then eventually we end up with a modern-day tower of Babel of sorts. It would be virtually impossible to do much of anything in a daily routine if signage changed to another language every few kilometers. Imagine driving down a street and one minute, everything is in English. Then you enter Chinatown, followed by Little Italy, the Indian district and so on while each time you reach a new area, the language on every sign is impossible for you to understand. In a country where everybody speaks the same language this is no problem really. At the very least, the dominance of English even if as a second language, and the desire for every business to appeal to the widest customer base as possible makes it a certainty you'll get signage in a language pretty much everybody has in common (namely, English) In Quebec it's obvious that things are different to begin with. While the language police go too far on occasion, there is a reasonably plausible scenario that despite the fact French is the dominant language in Quebec as a whole, without the language police, English would dominate the signage. It's not actually as ludicrous as it seems at first. Quebecois French is a very Anglicised language. "Le PC" to describe a computer (despite the fact that a perfectly suitable French word exists ; l' ordinateur) is a good example but there are many, many more.
To summarize, as crappy as it seems, the language police aren't as overzealous as they appear (they almost always give warnings first by the way) and the law isn't as unreasonable as our first glance would indicate. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:59:50 AM | Please note...I am in the heart of French speaking Quebec, and not in that homogenous area of montreal. English is not all that welcome here. I also stated that "some families" do not accept English speakers at all...very true, as anyone who has lived out here knows as fact.
Sure...Quebecs law 101 is illegal in Canada....or would be, except for that "notwithstanding" clause. Living in quebec, you do NOT have the same rights as other Canadians. Their Charter comes first, before the Canadian charter does. therefore, their laws over-ride the rights of Canadians. I want to be treated as a Canadian, not some provincial boob who claims to be a citizen of one province or another. I couldn't care less....I am a Canadian first. Anyone stating different is shortsighted, and not thinking very worldly.
Personally, I don't know why some of the separatists have not been charged with treason and sedation. But, giving them a martyre would probably play right into their own hands, so why bother.
As stated by another poster, the whole separatist movement is going down the tubes anyways. Why? Because those who were the strongest proponents for it have been reaping the rewards of staying within Canada, and the general population is being slowly educated as to the whole idea of what separatism means.
Smaller land mass. Huge problems with the natives. Much higher taxation. Nationalization of the banking system. A sudden devaluation of their own monetary system, because Canada has already stated they will NOT allow Quebec to use their dollar in conjunction with the Canadian one. A large public debt. These are things not often discussed by separatists, and when confonted with these, they quickly dismiss the issue and continue pounding their fists on the podium about how great their "nation" is and how they need to be "free of the English influence" on their society.
the provincial gov;t is so busy covering their own butts that they ignore the people they are supposed to be representing. They refused to allow small unions to join together, and what happens next? The whole woodworking industry collasped and thousands of jobs lost. With a large union, this would not have happened, and there would have been gov't bail-outs, job creation, and a supported effort to open new markets. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 12:21:39 PM |
I'm not against forcing businesses to cater to the majority by displaying their signage in the language of the majority
There are many cities and towns here in Ontario that have no need to "force" businesses to display any language.... business people do it on their own... to grow their business. Whether it be in English, French, Chinese, Arabic, etc... They don't need a "language police" to do it.
Essentially it just says that French should be the dominant language on any particular signage
Right. And when anglophones in montreal and other places where there are a fairly large population of them ask businesses to at least put english (smaller size) on their signage as per their rights under Bill 101... they have been denouced as "troublemakers" and anti-french. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:19:05 PM | I believe you but that's to be expected.
Don't forget, the French Catholic's actually DO have a case here. They shut their mouths and went along with the British back when they could have stirred up a hell of a lot more trouble (roughly two hundred years ago) They didn't so why not ? Because the British crown made promises that said , in effect "You get to stay distinct. We won't mess with you as long as you support us." And they did (even if it wasn't entirely embraced)
Now, that was over two centuries ago and times have changed but then again , the Quebecois of two hundred years ago expected this as much as they could and that's why we have what we have today. The deals that were made back then , if honoured allow them to do pretty much anything with Quebec save secede and the grossly immoral. And that's basically why the Feds can't change much as far as this language law goes. Those original treaties were basically modernized and applied to modern times.
Look, I don't like the idea of language Nazis shutting down businesses and helping alienate millions of people. These guys are part of the reason Montreal lost it's predominance in Canada (well, people who thought like these guys anyway) What I'm saying is that there is a basis for this in the historical record. Quebec was never supposed to become Anglicized at all according to the deals that were made. In other words, they aren't actually asking for all that much no matter how wrongly they go about it.
In this case, it's silly. Generally though, I've come to see the value bill 101.
But let's put this in a different context :
You go to a Chinese restaurant in a Chinese neighbourhood. Everything is written in Chinese. The waiter doesn't know English. Nobody does in fact. That's odd...you thought you were in Canada. Aren't they supposed to know either French or English ? Well, as long as you can get service in one language or the other then things are just ducky. If they do nothing to correct the situation then I guess you're screwed for dinner. This pub offers English alright so that part's taken care of. What it doesn't offer is French service in a province where the majority of people speak French. True, the pub isn't in a French neighbourhood but in the grand scheme of things, that's irrelevant. The law is clear. The vintage posters ? Well , going after those is just silly I'll grant you that. Otherwise, the tongue-troopers are perfectly within their rights to go after this pub. It's not like they had no idea so they can't claim ignorance either. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/18/2008 2:31:29 PM | Look, I've actually been in stores where the person serving me cannot speak ANY French. That's totally unacceptable to me, just from a business perspective. I don't care if you are learning, or have an accent, but you will have to make the effort.
I've walked out of stores, simply for that reason.
It's rare, but it happens.
One of the frustrating things about the entire language issue was the remarkable change that the Anglo community went through. On one side, many people left the province - including all my family.
For most of you, you can go back to your home town and still meet many people you had as friends, or went to school with. If I go back to Quebec City now, there's essentially no one left from my life there. There's been an economic and political genocide there.
Even my mother (who was PERFECTLY billingual, so much so she could talk to two people in either language at the same time - without any errors or accent), was repeatedly told (by people she'd known all her life) that "her time" was over.
They seemed to have overlooked the fact that we'd been as working class as any French Canadian ever was there. It wasn't like we were oppressing anyone, and in fact we'd always been part of the French culture.
It's the same myth that puts a spotlight on Westmount's rich, while overlooking the great numbers of working class English in places like Verdun, and Point St-Charles. That's far more representative of the "English" Quebecer, than some Earl Grey and cucumber sandwich eating Anglophile is on Summit Circle.
On the other side, those that stayed made some huge adjustments. I remember growing up in Quebec City, as a very young child, and seeing the street signs downtown in English.
That struck me as slightly strange, given the fact (at the time) the English were roughly ten percent of the population.
Those of us that stayed were the "Quebecois", the people who are as attached to this wonderful city and province as much as the Mountain is. We've thrived, and improved our language skills dramatically compared to what they once were. I know of people that have actually stood in line outside, all weekend long, in a Canadian winter - simply to make sure their kids get enrolled in a good French immersion school.
In a discussion with a nationalist friend one time, I reminded him that two groups gained through the language laws here - and one group lost badly The English, and the French aristocracy profited - and the working class French lost badly.
It's ironic, but most Anglos underestimate their French skills - and most Francophones overestimate their English ones - at least to my experience. I've known a great many French Canadians that claim bilingualism and speak with great difficulty and a heavy accent even after decades of living and working with Anglos.
I'm as stunned when I meet a French-Canadian that cannot speak or understand a single word of English , as I am an English Montrealer that is as powerless in the French language.
This is a global world now, and we should be arguing about speaking three or four languages - not only one. A French speaking person, a unilingual one, has only Quebec or France to essentially live and work in. He's cut off totally from the great majority of information that's out there. He's limited, and he always will be. One of my ex brother in laws , in his mid-Thirties, could not understand any English essentially.
After living thirty plus years in North America ?
That's the hidden cost of Bill 101. It replicates the control of the Church in limiting the lives and choices of French Canadians in major ways in the way it was implemented. It ensured that many working class French people would be locked into a life that offered less choices to them.
That's the great dirty secret of the nationalists, and one I love to point out any time I get the chance. Ironically, as I've said before, most of the strongest nationalist supporters here are PERFECTLY bilingual. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/19/2008 9:48:16 AM | Well...it seems most people agree...Quebecs language laws are unjust.
Well..their own folly will lead tham to no good.
Sure, Nationalists (separatists) are bilingual...they have to be in order to do business worldwide. But the common person who lives and works in Quebec really doesn't need it all that much. English as a second language is good...but perhaps Spanish is what should be being offered. (In some schools it is!) It seems the US is using Spanish more and more for everyday affairs, english as the world-wide business language.
More and more parents are demanding English language in French schools, preparing their kids for a future that involves the world, rather than the small corner of it known as Quebec. The gov't is understanding this and doing soemthing about it. About time. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/19/2008 7:06:02 PM | { QUOTE "It's ironic, but most Anglos underestimate their French skills - and most Francophones overestimate their English ones - at least to my experience. I've known a great many French Canadians that claim bilingualism and speak with great difficulty and a heavy accent even after decades of living and working with Anglos 'END OF QUOTE} - This point was made to me about 10 years ago. One of my best freinds, at the time a Canadian Navy Diving instructor, French by the way, complained about this. He claimed the Forces test for an Anglo to be considered Bilingual , was a lot tougher than the reverse. I remember his words as being, a French man would be considered bilingual by just knowing basic English, yet the Anglo had to read , write, and talk French Fluently. It bothered him, as he thought sometimes the wrong persons were being promoted. To be fair though, most French do speak and understand English , much better than English can French. While I understand French quite well personally, find it very difficult to speak. LOL, have had many a table full of people in stitches when I tried. Strange, as being from Scot heritage, cant roll my rrrr`s. That's the hidden cost of Bill 101. It replicates the control of the Church in limiting the lives and choices of French Canadians in major ways in the way it was implemented. It ensured that many working class French people would be locked into a life that offered less choices to them.
( QUOTE " That's the great dirty secret of the nationalists, and one I love to point out any time I get the chance. Ironically, as I've said before, most of the strongest nationalist supporters here are PERFECTLY bilingual" QUOTE ENDS}
- Once again Montrealguy has made a very valid point. This has crossed my mind several times when I knew French only persons in Sturgeon Falls where I lived for 12 years. They were very limited as to where they could work. Yes, in todays society, we should encourage 3 and 4 languages when our children have the talent. I believe I read that in France, students are required to take a minimum of 3 languages in school. ( Please correct me if I am wrong, been a while since I read that. ) | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/19/2008 7:55:36 PM | On my visits to Quebec, I have found the Quebecois to be very warm, friendly people, who will go out of their way to help me in response to my butchered French. My one vist to France was a nightmare, with the people being generally arrogant and rude. The Quebecois dialect is what was spoken in certain rural areas of France 250 years ago. The French in France essentially consider the Quebecois to be hill billies and the Canjuns to be trailer trash. By the way, neither label is true.
The French stole Quebec from the Indigenous People (First Nations) and enforced French as the official language. After losing a war with Great Britain, the government of France traded Canada for some islands in the Caribbeanm, which were more lucrative sources of revenue than Canada because of the abundance of African and Native American slave labor. So if we go on political correctness, then official language of Quebec should be some dialect of Algonquian.
Seriously, though, I think the Ouebecois's excessive sensitivity to the inevetible evolution of their language is due to the subliminal knowledge that their mother country rejected them. France always considered its Canadian colony a cash draining nuisance that was only maintained to keep the English from having it. France made little or no effort to maintain cultural ties with the Quebecois until the late 20th century. The Quebecois dialect is mocked by the French when they visit their mother country. The French will jokingly tell the tourist from Quebec to speak English so they can understand them.
Quebec, in particular Cite' de Quebec and the Laurentine's are true world treasures, though. If a reasonable preservation of those region's 18th century rural French traditions was couched in terms of economic development for tourism, non-English speakers might be more sympathetic | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/20/2008 4:34:08 AM | My two cents.
I arrived in Montreal from Ontario about 12 yrs ago. (Actually in the midst of the 95' referendum.) The first year I was here, I was flabbergasted by the (french) Quebecois attitude. Being fluently bilingual myself, I would probe them on their thoughts. After a while I came to understand and even admire the Quebecois. There is a cohesion here that does not exist anywhere else in Canada. Quebec is about the only province in Canada that is "fighting" to keep some sort of identitity in the face of issues like (un) reasonable accommodations. When I go to Toronto, I never feel "at home". Despite Montreal's multi cultural makeup, you can at least speak one of Canada's official languages. People are compelled to learn. In Toronto that is far from true. While I agree that sometimes language laws are taken too far, I feel that Quebec is more Canadian than any other province. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/20/2008 9:13:38 AM | ^^^Only Montreal and surrounding environs. Try going east to Quebec City to see the "pur sang quebecois" in action and speech. A lot of intolerance there.
Can you imagine groups of people protesting Canada day celebrations? How about someone being arrested and jailed for waving a Canadian flag? It has happened inQuebec City. So, don't be basing your ideas on Montreal...a **stardized city at best...and attempting to recoup its losses due to the narrowmindedness of separatists. | |
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| French language laws in Quebec undemocratic
Posted: 2/21/2008 3:32:56 AM | Bi-Lingual language rights are actually included within our constitution. It's a historical recognition that the French at one point made up the majority of the Canadian population.
I don't like the methodology that Quebec is using however. It's a tough issue. I do like that we offer schooling in so many languages for children though. | |
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