| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 12:12:40 AM | Where I live, the people before the Europeans got here, have claimed all of the land. I don't say indigenous as I don't believe they were\are. I believe that just like the Europeans, they migrated here. So I don't believe they can lay claim to the land. Yes they were lied to by the government of the day. But so was my Great Grandfather. He was told by a rep of the Canadian government that Canada was basically Hawaii but with better soil. He sold everything he owned and came to the Canadian Prairies penniless ... to be greeted by a -40 winter. Does a hundred years give you "more" claim? Two hundred? I am\was a 4th generation farmer but have no mineral rights to land I busted my azz to pay for and yet someone who just ... is? Has more rights? I have had it with the PC crap. I see people getting rich just because their ancestors "MAY" have shit in in a spot of forest. I am sure mine did as well. But I don't see mine getting rich.
Sorry, this was prompted by the utterance of a "Native" who stated he didn't "have" to work as he "owned" all the land! I just gritted my teeth and walked away. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 2:59:29 AM | | Alot of people say they are owed a living because of history, but I think its a way to get freeby's in life.I also think PC crap is stupid. I find them very hypocritical. Some things that get me is pc people saying derogitory remarks about Americans is not bigoted because we are a nation, not a race, yet they say Americans are bigots for making derogitory remarks about Mexicans. Another thing pc people do is criticize white/European people for taking over this land, yet say Hispanics have a right to do it. I noticed a lot of PC people sound just like Mr.Spock from the TV show "Star Trek".They work so hard to say the right thing but dont see how hypocritical they sound. | |
|
| |
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 7:52:49 AM |
Where I live, the people before the Europeans got here, have claimed all of the land. I don't say indigenous as I don't believe they were\are. I believe that just like the Europeans, they migrated here. So I don't believe they can lay claim to the land. Yes they were lied to by the government of the day. But so was my Great Grandfather. He was told by a rep of the Canadian government that Canada was basically Hawaii but with better soil. He sold everything he owned and came to the Canadian Prairies penniless ... to be greeted by a -40 winter. Does a hundred years give you "more" claim? Two hundred? I am\was a 4th generation farmer but have no mineral rights to land I busted my azz to pay for and yet someone who just ... is? Has more rights? I have had it with the PC crap. I see people getting rich just because their ancestors "MAY" have shit in in a spot of forest. I am sure mine did as well. But I don't see mine getting rich.
Sorry, this was prompted by the utterance of a "Native" who stated he didn't "have" to work as he "owned" all the land! I just gritted my teeth and walked away.
Umm...don't you first two sentences make the rest of your paragraph ironic ? You claim that the people that were in the area where you live PRIOR to your ancestors coming aren't indigenous..yet they lived BEFORE your ancestors arrived. Which would make them...indigenous..wouldn't it?
Since the Natives in Canada ( just like in the US) weren't paid a fair price for their land and were either forcibly removed or killed when they wouldn't sell....you don't see where they might feel CHEATED by the settlers that came along and STOLE what was theirs? When you take something you aren't given...you stole it. Just FYI.
And why would have to "grit your teeth" when somebody says something that you don't agree with? You have anger issues or something? | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 8:56:45 AM |
Didnt the us take a lot of territory from mexico though? Answer:
Under U.S. President John Tyler, The Republic of Texas was admitted to the Union on March 1, 1845. It became the 28th state later that year under President James K. Polk. The Mexican government had long warned that annexation meant war with the United States, and had never recognized the Republic of Texas as an independent state. Britain and France, which both recognized the independence of Texas, repeatedly tried to dissuade Mexico from declaring war against its neighbor. British efforts to mediate were fruitless in part because additional political disputes (particularly the Oregon boundary dispute) arose between Mexico, Britain and the United States. Before the outbreak of hostilities, on November 10, 1845, the United States president James K. Polk had sent negotiator John Slidell to Mexico to offer the country around $5 million for the territory of Nuevo México, and up to $40 million for Alta California.[7] Mexican members of government had simply dismissed Slidell, refusing to even meet with him[8] because they were greatly insulted by such an offer. This is because earlier that year Mexico had broken off diplomatic relations with the United States over the annexation of Texas, which Mexico had warned would be considered an act of war if passed by the US Congress. Mexico's basis for this was partly a condition of the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819 — which politically independent Mexico had inherited — in which the US had relinquished all claims to Mexican territory, ad infinitum.[9] After this snub Polk, an expansionist, himself took insult[8] and actively sought to provoke war with Mexico.[10][11]
After the Thornton Affair, a skirmish between Mexican and American troops which took place on disputed territory near the Rio Grande (see the Treaties of Velasco), President Polk signed a declaration of war into effect on May 13, 1846, almost two months before the Mexican congress was forced to formally declare war on July 1.
The war in Mexico's Northern territories largely ended on January 13, 1847, with the signing of the Treaty of Cahuenga. Mexico's subsequent defeat left them with little choice but to accept the United States' demands, or risk total annexation of Mexico.[8][12] Nicholas Trist, Chief Clerk of the State Department under President Polk, negotiated the treaty with the Mexican delegation, despite having been recalled by the president.[13] Notwithstanding that the treaty had been negotiated against his instructions, given its favorable terms President Polk passed it on to the Senate.[13]
I am not much intopolitics, but from what I understand, Texas left Mexico, and the USA allowed it. This pissed Mexico off. TheUSA wanted tobuy the other land, Mexico would not even listed to negotiations. This pissed the USA off so we picked a fight. In the end, Mexico was forced to sell the land because of war. Kind of like the way the south was forced back into the union because the civil war. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 9:21:00 AM | I am not much intopolitics, but from what I understand, Texas left Mexico, and the USA allowed it. This pissed Mexico off. TheUSA wanted tobuy the other land, Mexico would not even listed to negotiations. This pissed the USA off so we picked a fight. In the end, Mexico was forced to sell the land because of war. Kind of like the way the south was forced back into the union because the civil war. __________
You left out 500,000 square miles of dirt and water.
Pretty good deal. Nothing there except some Natives....
The Long Walk for the Navajo 9000 walked 300-500 miles and only 3000 die...
Isn't this like Israel and Palestine ? | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 9:43:04 AM | [quote[The Long Walk for the Navajo 9000 walked 300-500 miles and only 3000 die... That sounds like the trail of tears. If this is what you are talking about, explain how this is connected to Mexican/American land. If I am wrong, explain better what you are talking about. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 9:45:17 AM | No. Trail of tears was Jackson's payback for Native americans saving his life... Kit Carson did this, not a hero to many. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 9:48:06 AM | ^^^ That's true. It was on PBS last night. Kit Carson wasn't the "hero" that history makes him out to be. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 9:59:06 AM | | I have never heard of Kit Carson.He fought for the US(I did a little googling, only a little) I see him as a soldier-like. He did lead some sort of walk, but wasn't that after the war and after the treaty was signed? I am notbeing funny, I wantto understand more about him. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 10:01:58 AM | Fact is that if you go back far enough everybody came from somewhere else or were forced at some point to move from wherever they are indegenouse from. EVERYBODY. We can look at recent history and make some assumptions about the way NA's were treated but in many ways I agree with OP.
So I say LAND REFORM for everybody. If your grandparents had land given to them by the government it should be redivided and given to those who have none.
I live on a rez that was opened up to white homesteaders who were flat out given 167 ac. Now thier grandkids are stinking rich cattle ranchers and are controlling the politics just because their grandparents were given some land. It is totally hypocracy to not redistribute their lands to more new arrivals. Whats good for the goose....?
All that being said I really don't believe in land ownership. I mean think about it. What an absurd idea, that we can own a piece of the earth? You certainly can't take it with you and ALL warfare can be traced to the idea of "them" and "us" based primarily on imaginary lines on the ground. Land ownership is a means of control, primarily used by the ruling elite to further subject those without to more bs. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 10:13:54 AM |
Fact is that if you go back far enough everybody came from somewhere else or were forced at some point to move from wherever they are indegenouse from. EVERYBODY. We can look at recent history and make some assumptions about the way NA's were treated but in many ways I agree with OP.
So I say LAND REFORM for everybody. If your grandparents had land given to them by the government it should be redivided and given to those who have none.
I live on a rez that was opened up to white homesteaders who were flat out given 167 ac. Now thier grandkids are stinking rich cattle ranchers and are controlling the politics just because their grandparents were given some land. It is totally hypocracy to not redistribute their lands to more new arrivals. Whats good for the goose....?
All that being said I really don't believe in land ownership. I mean think about it. What an absurd idea, that we can own a piece of the earth? You certainly can't take it with you and ALL warfare can be traced to the idea of "them" and "us" based primarily on imaginary lines on the ground. Land ownership is a means of control, primarily used by the ruling elite to further subject those without to more bs.
Umm...let's see:
1) They aren't "assumptions" about the aboriginal peoples of the Americas were treated..it's historical fact. They were forced to sign treaties that they did help compose or understand, they were provoked into combating technologically superior forces,they were forced to sell their land for unfair prices or inadequate prices and they were moved or killed when they refused to give up their lands to settlers or the railroads. And, actually I haven't mentioned the numerous massacres that occurred against them.
2) Ironically, most of the settlers lost their land to speculators, the railroads and larger land barons shortly after they took it from the natives.
3) While some wars can be traced to border disputes, the "Indian Wars" in this country were pursued to deprive the original settlers of this country from what was their birthright.
4) How you can you "redistribute" something that didn't belong to you in the first place?
The native people in this country and Canada got a sh*t deal...and that's continuing to this day. I think the reason it makes so many non-Natives so unhappy is they realize all the f*cked up things their ancestors did to get what they have..and deep down it bothers them. Or maybe they are just d*cks. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 10:32:15 AM |
The native people in this country and Canada got a sh*t deal...and that's continuing to this day. I think the reason it makes so many non-Natives so unhappy is they realize all the f*cked up things their ancestors did to get what they have..and deep down it bothers them. Or maybe they are just d*cks.
Yep. The point about everyone being screwed at some point in history doesn't really hold because we are talking about what happened since our country was founded. We couldn't really undo that either but we should be sympathetic since its fairly recent history and we know precisely what happened. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 10:47:38 AM |
they were forced to sell their land for unfair prices or inadequate prices That sounds like the south after the civil War. {quote]he native people in this country and Canada got a sh*t deal. Agreed, So maybe they should succeed from the Union and declare war.
I think the reason it makes so many non-Natives so unhappy is they realize all the f*cked up things their ancestors did to get what they have..and deep down it bothers them. Actually, this attitude pisses me off, but these things were not done by my ancestors. My family didnt come here until the late 1800's. Nothing bothers me deep down, unless I actually did it myself. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 11:18:27 AM | | As the world's remaining Neanderthal, I lay claim to Europe...except for Greece, Turkey and Southern Spain. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 12:54:03 PM | Your missing the point. NA's took out other NA's to call what they say is theirs in the first place, yes massacreing each other. Nobody has clean hands when it comes right down to it. When you point a finger you have 3 pointing back at you. Look at the Lakota for example. They were forced from much further east by more powerful tribes and when the Anglo historians came and wrote about where they found them, where they had been only for a couple hundred years at most. Then the government comes in and finds some folks they could force into signing their documents and say that these few spoke for all? So now who is buying into the ideas of land ownership and what is theirs to sign away except those that the Anglo governments assigned as "chiefs"?
One needs only to look at linguistics of the tribes to see just how much moving around was done. Do you think they just showed up at a place and the folks that were there were totally cool with them coming there and using up their resources? This whole discussion is basically about ownership of resources... | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 2:28:50 PM |
Then the government comes in and finds some folks they could force into signing their documents and say that these few spoke for all? So now who is buying into the ideas of land ownership and what is theirs to sign away except those that the Anglo governments assigned as "chiefs"?
A point I feel gets lost in the debate is: 1) Some NAs during the post-'discovery', pre-revolution centuries seem to have freely entered into agreements with Europeans to divest themselves of at least a portion of land -- land which many NA cultures believed could not be owned. Therefore, it would seem Europeans were not the only ones engaging in bad-faith bargaining. Not that I'm implying the above justifies the atrocities committed against NAs (or vice versa on a much smaller scale). | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 3:52:59 PM | One should never post tired ... or cranky.
No anger problems here.
Just lazy ass status people with their hand out bothers me. I work in the oilfields. They are given most of the work to shut them up but then sub contract to non natives. Why? It would never get done otherwise. So basically they just have their hand out. Expecting it for nothing. Get's old after awhile.
Nobody owns land anywhere. Try not paying your taxes and see how long you "own" it. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 4:38:46 PM | Wasn't every country in history created by someone taking someone else's land? You can't change history by throwing money at it. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/19/2008 6:47:00 PM | I like to think that humans came from another planet about 30,000 years ago and displaced the Neanderthals or whatever was here at the time. Or maybe an Alien did some DNA stuff with the Neanderthals and mixed in some other stuff and these hybrids of the dust of the Earth and Alien DNA sequencing ended up causing the Neanderthals to become extinct. So we are all claim jumping and the only folks with a real claim have been gone for quite awhile.
For that matter the Neanderthals may have been a seeding in the first place also.
So when you go back far enough its out of this world.
Still anybody that owns a good piece of land with some resources doesn't really need to work and can hire others to do the menial stuff.
Sounds like the OP is upset about having to work for the land owners. Get used to it. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/20/2008 8:45:08 AM | | Taranis, I resonate with you. Check my post, message #15. BTW, I have never touched alien poontang in my life. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/20/2008 9:13:51 AM | I too have similar ideas to what Taranis is saying.
and schadenfreudian....you are not alone my protruding brow friend. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/20/2008 2:02:56 PM | | The land will way outlive anybody who occupies it. The idea that you "own" it is absurd. How society decides who controls it and what degree of control they have is almost as transitional as the lives of the "owners". If you want society to grant you that "stewardship" I would suggest you make yourself valuable to that society. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/20/2008 2:22:26 PM |
Since the Natives in Canada ( just like in the US) weren't paid a fair price for their land and were either forcibly removed or killed when they wouldn't sell....you don't see where they might feel CHEATED by the settlers that came along and STOLE what was theirs? When you take something you aren't given...you stole it. Just FYI.
And why would have to "grit your teeth" when somebody says something that you don't agree with? You have anger issues or something? He only sees what he wished to see. The truth and the facts don't matter.
And yes, he clearly has anger issues. | |
|
| Claims against the land Posted: 2/20/2008 5:37:40 PM | ^^^
I see what I deal with on a daily basis. Which may be different than what you see. It doesn't make it any less valid. The "truth and facts" that you know may not be what I know. Have you lived my life? no. Then don't attempt to judge me. You aren't equipped.
Anger issues? Nope? Experience? Yup.
Just as an aside, the NA's in B.C. have 117% of B.C. claimed as theirs.  | |
|