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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:11:38 AM | I wrote this reply (slightly tweaked) to another fishy the other day. And though it was designed from a man's point of view, I'm really asking for opinions from both sides of the river.
"I would bet that there are a few men who would love to get with you but you are not interested in. That seems to be the problem most of the time. If you want them, they don't want you. And if they want you, you don't want them. There in lies the rub.
If you aren't going to settle, than neither is anyone else I suspect. So what is this problem wherein those we think would be a catch to us, don't see us as a catch? And vice versa, those who find us to be a catch, we don't see them as a catch.
Do you think it is really a matter of, "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" It certainly does seem to be about the milk doesn't it...
I'm thinking, what does a woman offer to a man that a man really wants or needs anyway? Do we need nagging? Drama? Someone to support? A biotch? Screaming? Frigid? Clingy? Manipulative? Controlling? I think not. And many men don't even need a woman to cook, clean, or even to do laundry. So what does that leave?
Rebuttals welcome..." | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:18:35 AM | Are you after opinions on whether it's a good message or opinions on the content?
If it's the content then I guess I would ask 'if those are your views why are you looking to date/for a relationship?' | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:31:14 AM | OP, I think you're pointing to something deep. Why do we go through all the battles for something that doesn't always feel like it's worth it? Is it just sex?
I think it's easy to lose sight of the wonder and magic of the two genders coming together, sharing insights and feelings that aren't possible on our own, and are so different from when we are with our own gender. There have been only three times in my life when the shields have *truly* come down between me and a man, and what is possible there blew my mind and made me feel stronger and better than ever before. That's the lure, the possibility - but there is so much in the way. Can we reach for it?
I have a feeling this thread is going to be deleted for redundancy, though. Pity. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:39:08 AM | The point to this thread lies in the title. There are so many reasons why we don't hook up and as many reasons to why we don't stay together. The nuts and bolts are meant to hold us together. But do we have good wrenches and for that matter, good material, and regular maintenance?
You know, this thread might be redundant, but show me where the threads are where it's been said before. A little help and I'll start posting in those threads... | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:42:09 AM | I can think of a few reasons why I would want to meet a young lady, but what does it come down to that makes me want to keep her around?
So many people whine and complain that they loved and lost, over and over. Or that no one wants them, or at least the ones who they want don't want them in return.
Where do you look for the answers... | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 7:45:28 AM | Yes... is it just sex...
The milk, what is the milk.
Sex
money
power
security
love?
Yes, so much is in the way... from both ways? What is in your way? Things that they do or things that you do? | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:02:10 AM | I'm gonna presume you're talking about the content of the message.
I agree that most of us don't NEED a partner or spouse. I've been on my own for almost 23 years so I can survive just fine in this world. It'd be nice to have a man who is handy around the house so he could have fixed the bathtub drain yesterday instead of me having to pay $115 for the plumber, and I suspect many men would like to have a woman around to prepare their food for them and do their laundry even though they certainly know how to do it themselves. It's not so much about need anymore; it's about want. I want a man around b/c I enjoy my femininity that's brought out by a man I'm attracted to. I enjoy physical and emotional intimacy, spending time with someone whose eyes light up when I come in the room. I enjoy doing things for others and giving of myself. I think what my SO would appreciate would be the "girl things" that would make his life easier and/or more fun and exciting. That's what's left in my mind. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:02:15 AM | | Affection. It's what you're missing when, after a night of sex and you're on your way, what you seem to crave but don't know what it is, so you assume you're just horny and repeat the night of sex over and over again. Like air, you don't miss it when you have it. I've found my 'affection withdrawal period' to be about six months; once out of a regular relationship, that's how long it takes before I feel the pull to stay with someone instead of just have sex and be on my way. Sex might be the milk, but affection is the chocolate syrup that makes you sip it, and swish it around your mouth a little at a time instead of chug-a-lugging it down. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:04:38 AM | No desi, lol.
I'm just making observations on relationships in general.
I've been in that position numerous times. And on the other side numerous times.
Disclaimer: I'm not asking for advice.
As time goes by I think we all recognize that staying in a relationship is becoming more difficult to accomplish. Everyone, it seems, breaks up now a days eventually.
What reasons do we have anymore that will keep two people together?
It's not clingyness that holds a relationship together, nor is it manipulation and control. Those don't keep me wanting her. I tend to run from those kind of things. Nagging, that's a big turn off, don't you think? | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:04:56 AM | Well, your OP seems to be half a really great discussion topic and half a vent against women....
So I will respond to the "good" half. LOL Why do we only want the ones that don't want us, and we don't want the ones that do????
Dam* good question, esp in light of your profile and the numbers game.
And the answer is?
WEll, I don't know. I mean, plenty of people *do* find love...so apparently it does happen.
I don't know if I completely agree with your numbers theory. I for one have never consciously thought that way. For me it's much more simple. Am I attracted to both the body and mind? If I am, then it's a go. If not, then I don't pursue it. *shrug*
BUt there are psychological factors at play in that being overtly pursued can put some people off. Being "hard to get" really does make someone seem more attractive. ANd for some people (aka men), it's the chase that they like. Once the woman is caught, the attraction is gone. And *that* is where the problem seems to lie. Because what we all want is to be open and honest and not have to play those games. But if we are open and honest then we are no longer hard to get....or we are harder *to* get because our answer is "Honestly, I'm not interested".
WEll, I'd love to be the one to solve this puzzle, but, I can't and I've got a job interview in 2 hours so got to get movin' off POF and get back to the mundane real life.
Kaylie | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:09:20 AM |
So what does that leave?
Well, a supportive and encouraging voice when things aren't going well....a cool hand on your hot forehead when you're sick....a backrub when you're tense....a laugh at your not-so-funny joke...your favorite food when you're not into cooking...disapproval when you're in the wrong...a smile across a crowded room that says more than any number of words could...and sex of course.
Basically, you want a perfect mom with sex thrown in. Most boys do....whether they admit it or not. And most girls want that perfect dad with sex thrown in...whether we admit it or not. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:09:49 AM | Yes Charlie Shift. That's more about what I'm getting at. All those things are great as long as the negatives don't eventually drown them out...
Re-animator calls it affection, I call it intimacy. And Re-animator makes great points in my book also. But even intimacy can be spoiled eventually, don't you think? | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:15:20 AM | I think the problem is not in the nuts and bolts, the fine tuning, but that too many of us try to fit a square peg into a round hole, God help any comments that little visual will create in dirty little minds.
The last couple of relationships I have gotten into seemed great at first, then the signs that we were just not a good match developed, and you feel as if you need to give it time to figure out whether the person you met and were so attracted to is the core person, or the person they started revealing and it is usually the latter.
Although they seem to be far between, there are individuals that are married to or in relationships with their best friends, there is no nagging. Maybe the man is a business owner and the woman just understands the fluctuations of business and does way more than her share around the house without complaining because it is the busy season for him. Maybe he knows that she is exhausted because they have a baby teething so he picks up the slack so she can get a little more rest.
It is all about respect and caring and way too many people go headlong into a relationship because of the hormones and the chemistry when without that, they would not even LIKE the person they are with. My criteria is not hugely defined or stringent but I hope I am getting better at recognizing when I am not compatible and call it a day without dragging it out senselessly hoping that something I am not seeing will make everything okay.
As for your last paragraph, I don't nag if someone behaves like an adult and I don't have to, in addition to everything I do all day long, remind them to do things they are supposed to do. Drama is not something I welcome into my life so if you behave like an adult instead of a petulant child, no drama. I am the queen of supporting but it is not unending if it is not appreciated. I can be a biatch but perfer not to be. I am way beyond sick of screaming so if you get something that is said in a normal voice then you won't hear any decibel increase from me. If I am treated properly I am like the frigging energizer bunny in the bedroom. I have three kids, I run a business, I don't have the time or energy to be clingy. Why the hell would I want to be with someone I need to manipulate although I am perfectly capable of doing it.
As for your men bashing wish? Most men act like they are 2-years-old when you actually get into a relationship. They can cook and clean until the deal is sealed and then turn into quadrapalegics. Like when you are balancing one kid on each hip and the other on your head and they ask you to get them something that is two feet away. Men don't seem able to make up their minds that they actually want a relationship until they have dragged you along for a few months....What do I need a man for? Muscle work, period. What I want one for? See below.
What does that leave? Well, if I am treated properly and I don't mean showered with attention and like a princess, I will happily do someone's laundry, do my share of the cleaning, I like to cook, I am very good at solving problems or empathizing as long as you tell me whether you want me to be a guy or a chick before you tell me what's on your mind, I see problems as temporary and that can be fixed with some intelligence and imagination, and no matter how you slice it, guys like to be hugged too so outside the great sex, it is nice when you feel like the planets are lined up against you to have someone to hold so that you don't feel like you are facing everything alone. Every once in a while you see that older couple, the guy that still pulls out the chair for his wife at a restaurant, or the couple that used to sit in front of us at church. I always wondered if it was a second marriage or if they were one of the lucky couples because he would always have his arm around or hold her hand. That is why I put myself through the awkward first meetings and the 2-4 months it takes to figure out, this is not going to work, because I hope I find the square peg that fits in the square hole. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:16:21 AM | Well, I posted the vent against women part because I'm a guy and I can see that more clearly since I'm not a woman. I was hoping that others would bring in the vent viewpoints against us men. Because we need to hear it.
And I agree many people do find love and I have a feeling that it may have to do with the fact that many people have a healthy self perception of themselves...
My numbers theory is a relative theory to each person. Not everyone is going to have the same idea of what a ten is nor what a one is. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:19:16 AM |
I'm thinking, what does a woman offer to a man that a man really wants or needs anyway? Do we need nagging? Drama? Someone to support? A biotch? Screaming? Frigid? Clingy? Manipulative? Controlling? I think not. And many men don't even need a woman to cook, clean, or even to do laundry. So what does that leave?
The first question, what can a woman offer a man that he really needs, HMM, LET'S SEE, comfort, understanding, sensitivity to his emotions, unconditional love, nurture. Did you need more?
Nagging -- Not every woman does this, and sometimes, only the best of women can do this.
Drama -- Again, not every woman. I've known men more dramatic than most women.
Someone to support -- Oh, and OF COURSE a woman can't support herself. And it's not like a woman can possibly support a man emotionally. Buddy, if you really want to play off generalisations... WHY CAN'T MEN SUPPORT US EMOTIONALLY AND LEAVE US FEELING ABANDONED?!
Biotch -- Ahhh... so strength in women intimidates you. That makes a lot more sense.
Screaming -- Of course you men never yell or scream when you're frustrated, right?
Frigid -- Cold shoulder much?
Clingy -- Actually. Men are more likely to be clingy than women. Has to do with how their mothers raised them, really.
Manipulative -- Of my acquaintances, I know of men and women in equal numbers who are manipulative. This isn't a gender dominated trait.
Controlling -- Again. Not a gender dominated trait.
Aside from your last paragraph, I can't really gleam what your entire argument is. Are you asking why women don't like you when you like them? Are you asking why couples even stay together? Please phrase your concerns better than this. It's probably why you're getting so many votes to have the thread deleted--most people have no idea what you're saying.
Also. Please keep your generalisations to yourself. Or if you are going to use them, at least acknowledge that women aren't the only ones who can be crazy. I think the one thing that bothers me the most are people who have predetermined opinions when it comes to the differences between men and women. Try to understand that men and women are essentially the same when it comes to their mental and emotional being. If there are ever differences between the two when it comes to certain characteristics, they lie in each individual rather than the entire sex. Gender dominated traits are all predetermined characteristics of men and women and they shouldn't be used in arguments as they are only speculations rather than fact. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:21:29 AM |
I'm thinking, what does a woman offer to a man that a man really wants or needs anyway? Do we need nagging? Drama? Someone to support? A biotch? Screaming? Frigid? Clingy? Manipulative? Controlling? I think not. And many men don't even need a woman to cook, clean, or even to do laundry. So what does that leave?
Sorry, you lost me at ... nagging.
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:29:34 AM | Arugula and packagedealx3, great point of view! I think you may be on to something...
I noticed a lot of what you both pointed out are things that we physically "do" for one who we care about...
Maybe I'm not as clear as I'm trying to be, but it has no simple answers. Sorry to all who aren't quickly catching my jive, but I know I did point out right off the bat that I was looking for points of view from both sides of the equation. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 8:46:36 AM | Compatibility has to be mutual... if a man I am interested in, isn't interested in me (or vice versa) that is a natural part of the selection and dating process. That's what makes finding that mutuality of interest feel like a minor miracle. If it were readily available, a connection wouldn't seem so special or extraordinary, now would it?
So many of our relationship terms imply possession or completion and even permanence. ("catch", "buy" and the like). Like the fantasy movies where it ends when they find each other, but that really is just the beginning. Life is a process of discovery and learning. I think more of a focus on discovering another person and getting to know them and less of a focus on immediately determining "a relationship" is the "answer". As PackageDeal says... it takes time to discover.
So many of our generalizations reveal our world view. I find a man who speaks of what he wants much more interesting and engaging than a man focused on what he wishes to avoid. And, if all he expects of life is the negative, no wonder that is what he continuously finds... we pretty much all find what we look for. You remain at the effect of something even when you phrase it as "not that" because you are focused on looking to see if someone has that trait rather than discovering who the person is. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 9:07:52 AM | To the Poster:
>>>>Do you think it is really a matter of, "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" It certainly does seem to be about the milk doesn't it...
I'm thinking, what does a woman offer to a man that a man really wants or needs anyway? Do we need nagging? Drama? Someone to support? A biotch? Screaming? Frigid? Clingy? Manipulative? Controlling? I think not. And many men don't even need a woman to cook, clean, or even to do laundry. So what does that leave?<<<<
I'm not sure if you're just being deliberately provoking or whether you think that's all a relationship with a woman offers. If so, I would venture to say that you don't like and respect women very much (or they don't like you hence the bitterness) and so a successful relationship with one will never be in your future.
I don't think a formula is possible. I know there are a million books that try to give advice and tips on a successful relationship but everyone is different. An easy answer is that love, respect and intimacy is the milk but that's not always the answer either when social dynamics, communication breakdowns and insecurities get in the way.
Everyone has their own wants, needs, desires, preferences and dealbreakers. A successful relationship is one that meets most of the first 4 and tries not to cross that last one. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 9:14:28 AM |
I would bet that there are a few men who would love to get with you but you are not interested in. That seems to be the problem most of the time. If you want them, they don't want you. And if they want you, you don't want them. There in lies the rub.
Don't you want to get what you like? I know I do. The some goes for the other person. So, if I am not what the other person likes, that's more than okay. There is no point, because the alternative is not desirable. Who wants to be with someone when that someone doesn't want to be with them?
If you aren't going to settle, than neither is anyone else I suspect.
I would talk to the person and make sure, rather than assume.
So what is this problem wherein those we think would be a catch to us, don't see us as a catch? And vice versa, those who find us to be a catch, we don't see them as a catch.
There is no problem here. I would not settle for someone I don't like, when I could settle for someone I do. What's more, I don't like anyone who doesn't like me, to settle for me.
Do you think it is really a matter of, "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" It certainly does seem to be about the milk doesn't it...
What's the context in which one should interpret your sentence? Are you talking about sex? Or are you referring to short term relationships?
I'm thinking, what does a woman offer to a man that a man really wants or needs anyway?
Good question. But lets answer the more generic version first: What does one being need/want from another, if anything? | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 9:27:43 AM | a good wrench to the side of the head possibly.
I hate these "all men are/all women are" posts. In the case of men (OP included), its always a manifesto from someone who just wants to debate for its own sake. Women tend to do it for pity. it is pretty clear. yet we all feed into it and entertain these people. Why is that?
Hmm. sounds like a new thread. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 9:39:15 AM | I'm deliberately being thought provoking. Of course there must be more and obviously there is more. I'm surprised at the amount of replies that assume I am bitter and negative (maybe I shouldn't be, lol), and the amount of those who my point has evaded. I'm pretty savvy to relationships and what makes them go. But I am amazed at the amount of people who just don't get what it takes to make a relationship work. I'm amazed at the amount of people who always blame others. That's kind of like imperfections blaming imperfections for being imperfect.
Some will say that men suck because all they want is sex. And they say that it is a bad thing. But go figure, it is how we are made. So does it really make it a bad thing?
Yes, I generalize, but when we are talking about groups of people we have to speak in generalizations. And that's why we say "generally, some, and/or many". When we speak in generalizations, we are not assuming that all individuals meet the general criteria. But we do assume that all referenced groups do generally fit into the criteria. And that also doesn't assume that all people will agree with the generalization of a group.
"Men are pigs." A lot of people will say that is generally true. A lot will disagree. And some will feel the need to say, "Well, I'm not a pig!" And those are the ones who takes generalizations personally. And that is telling about a person's personality.
There is a major amount of self help books out there, but they won't mean squat until people start looking within and begin to observe their own behavior that is leading them to have failed relationship after failed relationship. Forget about the ones who aren't even capable of getting into a relationship. Quit blaming society. Look within and see what you are doing that is creating the confusion in your life.
Yes, for many the milk is love, respect, intimacy, etc. But as I pointed out earlier, for many people it is also sex, power, money, and other selfish endeavors. Where do you fit in?
I appreciate all those who caught the healthy sarcasm in my initial posting. And I apologize to those who have felt I wasn't clear to them. The meat of the post was a reply to another fishy in which I was trying to point out how people have lost their need to look within to make a relationship work, to see what it is they are really offering and bringing to the table. | |
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| Nuts and bolts (Anyone need a good wrench?)
Posted: 2/22/2008 9:41:56 AM | I understand the OP's point....
I say that each person should choose carefully the person that they want for a mate..
What are the weak points in the relationships?
Is the other person willing to acknowledge the weak points and work on improving all aspects of the journey through life, to make life enjoyable for both people involved??
If the answer is no. Then there is no point in wanting to be with that person.
There can be great benefits to finding the right life mate..
Pooled resources can amplifythe wealth of both people if both put their efforts into working together instead of working against each other.
Life is a business deal...
If each person involved doesn't pull their own weight in one way or another...
The deal falls apart with someone left feeling hurt or , taken advantage of ..
Communication is an important key ...
If you both truely want to get along .. Then TALK to each other...!!! | |
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