| | UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a convictionPage 1 of 3 (1, 2, 3) | The following is taken from the news section of Yahoo.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080223/tuk-no-universal-dna-database-plans-6323e80_2.html.
Press Assoc. - Saturday, February 23 08:17 am
There are no plans to make the national DNA database compulsory for all people despite the convictions of Mark Dixie and Steve Wright, the Home Office said.
Suffolk serial killer Wright and Sally Anne Bowman's murderer Dixie were both captured because their DNA was taken after unrelated offences.
Speaking after Dixie's guilty verdict, the policeman who led the hunt for Miss Bowman's killer called for a national DNA register.
The plea has the backing of Miss Bowman's mother who has previously petitioned for the move.
But the Home Office said a compulsory database would raise "significant practical and ethical issues".
DNA samples and fingerprints are already taken on a routine basis upon most arrests.
A Home Office spokesman said: "There are no Government plans to introduce a universal compulsory, or voluntary, national DNA database and to do so would raise significant practical and ethical issues."
Detective Superintendent Stuart Cundy, who led the investigation into Miss Bowman's murder, said a national DNA database would have led to Dixie's arrest within 24 hours.
Dixie had 16 previous convictions in Britain but all were before DNA was routinely taken from suspects.
He was arrested for Miss Bowman's murder nine months later after being arrested for a minor scuffle over a World Cup football match. His DNA was placed on the police database and he was in custody five hours later for the killing.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with the desicion not to have a compulsory DNA database, what I do disagree with is the retention of DNA samples collected as a result of an arrest that does not reult in a conviction.
Watching BBC news 24 earlier today I saw an interview in which a spokesman said that once your DNA was collected following an arrest it could only be removed from the database following a special request and a full review of the circumstances. (to date only three individuals have had there details removed)
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I believe the British government should follow the Us policy of only being allowed to legally retain DNA samples following a conviction.
Acquital or no further action, automatically entitles the individual to have their sample and information removed from the database.
What do you think??? | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:36:38 AM | Its theft.
Thats all I can say on the matter. 'They' don't 'own' me!
But who's in charge here? Not me. It will be compulsory at some point, I'm pretty sure of that, but it's still too early to bring it in yet.. They still haven't the confidence to bring in this identity card yet that they've been banging on about. There will be too much of an outcry, they are waiting to remove so many of our rights and freedoms to the point where we will gladly accept any further removals of our freedoms and human rights of sheeple the moment they utter terrorism or criminals in the same sentence as "new laws".
If a policeman wants to take a strand of my hair for drug testing I will tell him that is criminal damage to my person, and in breach of my human rights, no one has a right to take any part of me no matter how small... it is mine, no one elses!!
And whilst I am on the subject.. I AM NOT A BARCODE!
I hate big brotherism with a vengence and will not roll over and turn into the sheeple that they so wish to turn me into a product of their machine. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:39:19 AM | I don't see a need for it to be removed surely it can be a good thing, if you haven't done anything nothing to worry about? My DNA is on it from a while ago when I hadn't done anything I was released after they realised this. I've never really bothered myself about it I'm not planning on doing anything where it will cause me problems all it can do is prove things weren't me?
Just my views on it. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:12:39 AM | | What was that programme shown ages ago about some rapist who got caught because they tested every man living in the same area for DNA .The rapist managed to talk a mate into giving his DNA instead of giving his own .The bloke chatted about this at the bar one night and a female friend told the police who then went round the mans address and tested him positive . The DNA from everyone else was then destroyed .If a female in my area were raped or worse , I would happily if asked give my DNA if it were then to be destroyed . | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:25:53 AM | Why the big No No where DNA is concerned 
If it helps catch those that do wrong, quickly, effectively stopping them, almost immediately, from continuing, in the case of say serial rapists, murderer's and sex offenders ..
Where, and what is the problem | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:26:27 AM | i wouldnt be worried if they kept my DNA on file.. if they took it at birth from everyone i think it would be a good thing.. these people that cry out civil liberty would soon change their tune if a member of thier family was involved in a murder/rape or violent crime....
the fact is YOUR poll tax pays for criminal investigations.. YOUR poll tax pays for the police.. anything that helps to solve crime in as easy way, and therefore as cost effective way as possible, gets my vote..
this could be murder robbery rape etc.. DNA plays a big part in solving many crimes..
if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear...
IMO | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:32:30 AM | At the moment if you are arrested a DNA sample is taken from you.That sample is not destroyed if no charges are brought or if you are found not guilty.
If you volentarily give a DNA sample as part of a police investigation that sample is kept in perpetuity.
That is UTTERLY wrong.
We are policed by consent.I do not and will not consent to my dna being kept by this or any other government.
I am the governments master and not the other way around.
As far as i am concerned this countrys freedoms are being eroded by the very people we,or in Browns case the person we DID NOT, elected to lead us.That is immoral at best.A dictatorship by any other name.
And an utter travesty of the freedoms generations fought and died for. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:39:38 AM |
He was arrested for Miss Bowman's murder nine months later after being arrested for a minor scuffle over a World Cup football match. His DNA was placed on the police database and he was in custody five hours later for the killing.
Well that was quick work and shows why it would be a good idea to have a dna database.
I read that Dixie is also suspected of possible sexual assaults and even the rape and murder of a young woman in Australia when he was living and working there as a chef. Scary thought that he managed to evade being caught for so long. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:40:09 AM |
if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear...
Thats the classic line.
I don't subscribe to that train of thought personally, and if a member of my family was harmed in any way, the damage has already been done, and by god would i make them pay if i ever got my hands on them but thats another topic altogether.
Murderers, criminals who have a actual victim, rapists, terrorists, child molesterers , wife beaters, violent people, mental torturers, and if i missed anyone out, lets just say people who cause harm to others... Don't give them an all expenses paid holiday camp to live in at our great expense.. (which is all they will do).. I beg the government to do something else with them. Something that will be a great deterrent, and of far greater benefit (and less cost) to our country. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:45:50 AM | | If the powers at be had an automatic right to have your DNA then where will it stop .Not long ago the Police turned up at my mates school and started taking the children's fingerprints without consent .That is wrong . Police have taken my fingerprints years ago after I was done for 1/8 of dope on NYE,public enemy number one . The copper was well pissed off that he wasn't allowed to take my DNA as well . Whatever happened to innocent until proved guilty . Suspecting everybody and taking their DNA is very Blade Runner and 1984 . | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:46:40 AM | Yeah, great idea. They can have some of my DNA; i'll start the ball rolling. Hmm but I'm a girl, but you never know, if i do something wrong they can catch me quicker.
Hoorah I say ! Down with murdering loons; this'll give 'em a run for their money !
yeah, great idea ! | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:46:45 AM | if you are a law abiding citizen, who gets about his/her day to day life and not breaking the law.. why should you have anything to fear from the DNA data bank...
Simply because it is my belief that if you have NOT broken the law the police DO NOT NEED to have your DNA.
If someone is convicted of a crime then yes i believe its right that their DNA is kept on file.
But that is convicted.
And that is the ONLY time.
The innocent have nothing to fear?
Only places like Belsen,Dachau etc.
The crime?
Being jewish..
EDIT
Predjudice? Against what?
The german government of that time was a democraticly elected one.
Nonetheless they acted against the very people who voted them into power.And murdered gays,the disabled and jews.And those actions were carried out with 1930s technology.Can you IMAGINE what a similar police state could do with todays technology?
Ring citys with automatic number plate recognition cameras? Err they have.
Patrol citys with cameras? err they do.
Link all the countrys police computer systems.? see above.
Spy on their own mp`s via bugging devices? ditto.
Hold without trail citizens? yep they do that too.
Incidentaly did you know that Herr Hitler held the Iron Cross second class in ww1?
He never wore it.Maybe because it was awarded on the word of his company commander.A jew.
We do not need a DNA database.We do not need the innocents DNA held by our national government.
That they choose to ignore the Magna Carta is treasonous.
Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Thats a fundamental part of english law.
When was it renounced?
And by whom?
And yes i am trying to show the likenesses of Browns Britain and Hitlers Germany. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:46:51 AM | Something that will be a great deterrent.
a deterrent is one thing, but once its done a punishment is another..
and to meter out punishment you must catch the perpetrators...
and in order to do so DNA comes into play very very often these days... if they spend months and months testing everyone who could be a suspect, who fits the profile, who is a possible, a maybe, and still not get the right one..
is it not easier to DNA profile everyone at birth and render this hit and miss testing redundant..?
if it was your daughter/sister /wife/brother/cousin etc would you not want to use every means possible to catch the "person" who commited the crime..? cos i know i would.....
edit..
i have nothing to fear.. i have not commited crime.. i wouldnt be in the slightest bit bothered if a DNA data bank came into force tomorrow....
and its not wether you have committed crime its wether you have been caught for something... you may hve committed many crimes just not been caught/charged
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:08:05 PM | This government can't be trusted with the personal data it already has on us - the child benefit fiasco being just one of a very long list of failures. The last decade or so's big government computer projects have mostly been a disaster across the board, from the passport agency right through to tax credits and the CSA. Criminals are often just a wee bit smarter than our power hungry MP's.
How about they start by producing a reliable list of who is actually in the country - just the names, gender and ages would be a great help to our over pressed public services. They can't even tell us how many people are here - how they ever gonna know if they've got everyone's DNA? In a country that currently ranks at no 3 globally for child and women people trafficking, just creating that accurate list of names, would at a stroke bring our crime rates down.
Oh and while they are compiling that list they can get some old fashioned bobbies back on the beat instead of filling in forms. That would help crime preventention and detection no end too!
THEN they can ASK us by due democratic process if we mind our DNA and that of our children (yup under 16's are in the current database too)being taken. They can also tell us as part of that process what safeguards there are in place to stop the corrupt, incompetent, or downright dangerous (imagine if Hitler/Stalin/Amin had had access to a list of everyone's DNA?) both now and in the future from abusing that info.
I used to think my objections were principally due to the infringement of our civil liberties etc, the dangers of another crazy like those that started the first and second world wars getting a grip on power and having access to this info. Now though I'm inclined to think it's the sheer arrogance of a governing class that can't even organise the collection of our rubbish thinking I'd trust their useless, feckless behinds with anymore personal info than they already have? | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:10:28 PM | To clear my name I would give my DNA if i knew it would be destroyed afterwards, (I have nothing to hide and committed no sins to another individual human being), in fact I'd probably do anything 'they' tell me to if I had no choice (choice being if you refuse they class you as guilty), because the authorities have that effect on you due to the infrastructure of our society. We are generally speaking quite compliant to the authorities otherwise we know that we can be punished for not being a compliant good little boy/girl. We know we are 'owned' and at the mercy of the bully boys in power.
They could make this database compulsory today if they wanted to, but they are choosing the timing more carefully, to slip it in once the time is right a few years after the identity card gets brought in, and the average person has that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear', mentality.
What I fear is abuse of power, and abuse of information, and abuse of technology. (Whether abused by criminals intercepting the information, or the criminals in power at the time). Naive sheeple don't think about this very much,
Abuse of technology is a deep one, it comes down to genetic selection, but that will come about at a much later point in history when technology and science allows for selections and the technology that will be available in 200 years, and DNA profiles at birth, I think this can be abused at the cost of lives/prejudice, job selection will also become a DNA CV.
It is all a bit futuristic and we will all be dead when it happens but I know whats going down, the way its going.
EDIT: As far as catching killers are concerned then yes i admit it would be very helpful, I've had some experience of this in my own neighbourhood where they only caught the killer after door to door dna testing due to the profiling pointing to a local man, but i believe that a DNA databass can be abused to a far greater extent than locking a few killers up, but my fears lay mainly in the future, when the technology/criminals/hackers etc can sell this information on for big bucks at the cost of more lives, and when authorities step up their money making game/agenda. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:24:45 PM | I dont see the fuss. I'd gladly give my DNA - why wouldnt I? I dont offend.
Maybe it would make some of these sickos think twice about killing if they knew the chance of being caught was more likely. Not only that it would eliminate suspects who were actually innocent. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:40:19 PM |
Maybe it would make some of these sickos think twice about killing if they knew the chance of being caught was more likely. Not only that it would eliminate suspects who were actually innocent.
And that would be a major positive aspect of DNA..
Who knows the we might get the death penalty for the truly hideous, perverted, and guilty beyond any doubt offenders.. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:49:36 PM | I recall reading an article a few weeks ago where a man was convicted of, I think, sexual assault solely on the evidence of his DNA being found at the scene of the crime in a hospital. The police had found a hair, tested it for DNA and found it was his. His DNA was in the police database because he had committed another crime years ago, not of a sexual nature I would add. His conviction was over-turned because it was not safe - he had worked at the hospital where the assault had taken place. He was originally found guilty solely on that one strand of hair and the DNA got from it.
I don't know whether he is innocent or guilty but it does, to me, raise serious consequences should we all have to give a DNA sample and the above could happen again - it took him 2 years to appeal and clear his name. We leave DNA everywhere we go.
I do not have a criminal record so my DNA is not on the database. On the basis of the above case and the way our personal details are not safe at the moment, I would be very much against it becoming compulsory. But, I agree with some of the other posts, if my DNA was needed to eliminate me from a crime, I would give it but only on the written assurance that it was completely destroyed afterwards. | |
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willow
| | Joined: 12/11/2005
Msg: 21 | |
| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:51:14 PM |
Dixie had 16 previous convictions in Britain but all were before DNA was routinely taken from suspects.
He was arrested for Miss Bowman's murder nine months later after being arrested for a minor scuffle over a World Cup football match. His DNA was placed on the police database and he was in custody five hours later for the killing.
So if he hadnt been arrested and his DNA taken because of this scuffle he may have went on his merry way and never caught until he maybe killed again.
Good enough reason in my eyes.. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 12:59:06 PM | [What I fear is abuse of power, and abuse of information, and abuse of technology. (Whether abused by criminals intercepting the information, or the criminals in power at the time). Naive sheeple don't think about this very much]
That sums it up perfectly for me - thank you! Just add the incompetence of our current administration regarding data of all kinds and it's a disaster just waiting to happen. | |
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-Hams-
| | Joined: 10/30/2006
Msg: 23 | |
| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 2:31:47 PM | A compulsary UK DNA database wouldn't have prevented these 2 convicted killers
this week from carrying out there evil crimes through the fear of being caught more easily.
I do agree with the families of the victims request for the death penalty to be restored...
Were not living in a Police state just yet even if some politicians wished we were and
I wouldn't trust them with running a bath let alone having our populations data on tap. | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 3:17:52 PM | Some well thought out arguments against the retention of DNA. Surrendering it on a temporary basis yes. But retention as a norm? No.
Another thought to go into the mix, your DNA would be stored as a string of code in a database. This is now "information" and as such becomes a potentially valuable commodity. For example in genetic research, counting govt incompetence when it comes to databases, who would ultimately own your "information"? What use would it be put to? On the one hand the comparison to Hitler's Germany could be but an election away. On the other what would an inscrupulous multinational genetic research corporation do with it?
Paranoia? | |
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| UK DNA Database, and sample retention without a conviction
Posted: 2/23/2008 3:23:33 PM | apart from Faithfey, other posters objection to a dna database are based upon their suspicions that the information might result in a purge of some sort akin to ethnic cleansing and genocide which stinks of paranoia (I'm not a person of international mystery so I have no issue with my dna being available to be accessed) - I think Britain has come a long way since those days of WWII so it's insanely paranoid to imagine that dna information will be abused for that reason...isn't it ?
As the voting public surely it would be ok to say AYE to a dna database within certain restrictions. Every government department has a responsibility to fulfill their duties in the public's interest. If you have a problem with how things are going you always have the European court of human rights to help you out or go to your local ombudsman. Nothing is cut and dried and every situation can be tested and learnt from.
What is the worst that can happen if the government or police force in a country have access to your DNA............the mother of your child can prove you owe her heaps in maintenance ??? | |
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