| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand [Thread Closed - Redundant]
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:31:25 PM | My question goes out to everyone out there men and ladies. What is going on with dating these days?
When did dating turn into going dutch for everything?
How do you find out whether these individuals will be "taking you out" before the date, or surprising you once the bill comes and expecting you pay your own tab?
In my experience this has happened to me several times and I am honestly taking a step back from dating as a result of these experiences. Guys say hey you are really cute let me take you out. But I feel that I need to get them to DEFINE "take you out".
I have only met 3 guys off internet sites in the last year and one tried to put on a fake front to reel me in but then, was lying about whether or not he smoked or had kids (please be honest for petes sake), one described a bad date as labeling a woman as a gold digger simply because he offered to take her to dinner and then got upset when she wouldn't offer to help with the bill.
And the third....well lets just say I found someone who is genuine and wants to be my friend.
He's a little gunshy but didn't have a problem taking me out for a drink and picking up the ck.
Strangely enough the YOUNGEST guy was the one who was the most gentleman like and genuine and wasnt hiding anything.
So my question once again is this ......when did dating become a strictly Dutch thing? What happened to bringing a woman flowers and showing her a good time without expecting her to pay her own way or half??? | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:33:59 PM | | I always thought it was best that whoever asks pays unless it's specified before the fact. It's just plain rude to spring that on someone. Not everyone always has the money available for things at a moment's notice. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:37:40 PM | I'm of the opinion that when you meet someone from an internet site the first time it really isn't a date- it's a 'meet'. For that I look at it as 2 friends getting together and spending some time...before we meet I make it clear I'm picking up my half. There's no confusion and no feeling as though you owe anyone anything...and if you don't want to see the other person again you're square and no odd sense of having to pay them back.
Once the meet is over all bets off, but it is something you should be clear about right through...I won't be dependent on anyone else so I'll always find a way to keep things even. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/23/2008 10:47:11 PM | | I have found the same thing. But don't worry - there are still gentlemen out there who like to take a girl out when they say they are going to "take a girl out." It must have something to do with the way they were raised - the ones that still hang onto the traditions of dating must have been raised to have traditional manners or something. Even in movies and tv, the guy still picks up the cheque in dates. It's kind of weird how fast this idea of splitting the bill has spread and stuck thees days, considering this can really give off a cheapskate impression. Especially when someone asks you out and gives you the impression that they are taking you out on a date, only to find out that they actually want to split the cost when it's a freaking cup of coffee. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:04:58 PM | When I meet someone from here, it will be for a "meet and greet" opportunity, and that means coffee, drinks, or some casual get together that involves little or no money, and then I am happy to pay for that meeting.
Once there, and the decision to date is made, then, if I ask them out, I pay, and in return, I would like them to ask me out the next time and pay as well. This payment does not have to be at a restaurant, and can be an invitation to their house for dinner, or meeting to see a movie, etc., but overall, taking turns with dates and paying in some form seems to work the best in the long run.
What ends up happening, for me at least, is that we end up doing outdoor activities, having a drink or two, maybe some dinner, but mostly end up at one of our houses with a bottle of wine, a rented movie, some candles, and and fire, and that my friends can be the best yet non expensive date you can have.
I do not mind taking care of my share, and providing the finances for most dates, but in return, I believe that some form of return on that part of it should happen from my dates, by doing things for me as well in some way, shape, or form, to show their desire to be my equal and enjoy what I have enjoyed on them most of the time....... 
Just my opinion......   | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/23/2008 11:08:55 PM | I am ashamed that the ones of my own sex seem to be out for free coffee or a free meal if they make it so far. Invariably my date picks up for the first coffee but I always pick up for the second coffee...if we are still on speaking terms. At dinner, I always insist on picking up the drinks part of the bill and always make sure the waiter brings two bills, one for the dinner and one for the drinks. Were all well paid, girls, sometimes more than the men we meet.
We should not expect a man to bankrupt himself just for the pleasure of our company. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 12:21:33 AM | Well said, Penny-stx.
The expectation that the man automatically pays the bill for the first date is one that I've gone along with, quite happily most of the time, but nonetheless it disturbs me that some women actually expect it.
The custom is outdated in this age of (fairly equal) pay, in my opinion. It belongs back in the 20th century when women could not vote, stayed at home, etc etc. Seems like some people want the benefits of being in a modern world with some of the benefits of old-world values, and that goes for both sexes! | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 12:39:33 AM | | Wow! How tight are some people! When I go on a date, it doesn't even cross my mind for a moment, who's paying. I always pay my way without question, and would consider it rude not to. Women in today's society are capable of earning the same as men, and the men may even be worse off due to children to support. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 12:46:30 AM | I agree with Act Two's post on this - early dating is meeting, not a change to get a freebie.
But there's a lot more going on in society these days than who pays for the first meet and the idea of the man paying for everything doesn't match with what's going on elsewhere socially. You can't have it both ways - men can't and neither can women and I think men are starting to catch up with women socially and it's going to take a few years yet but there'll come a time when men and women are actually socially equals. It's a case of 'be careful what you wish for' for a lot of women because that's what they're having to deal with.
I won't assume I have to pay for the company of a woman any more and when a woman turns up for a first meet with an expectancy I'll pay I will pay to be courteous but she'll never get a second meet. Ladies who do this to me aren't usually 'poor' - some of them are self-employed professionals.
It is not a privelege for me to meet with a woman. I am not subservient to women and she is not a prostitute for whose time I am buying a meal or passing over cash. She is my equal and if we are not equal then we are not suited as a couple. My experience tells me how a relationship starts is how it continues.
I want to be treated with respect by women (and everyone else) and if I behave like a lapdog I will be regarded as one. I do not wish to be criticised; judged on the basis of how much money I spend on her or enter in any shape or form into a pyschological contract that says 'pay for something for me and I might just have sex with you'.
These are outdated ways of thinking and to me a woman who wants both to be treated as an equal and yet have a man pay for her company at first meeting is living in a world of three halves.
Personally I want to see that a woman is willing to do some investing of her own. Relationships at all stages are hard work and I wouldn't give the time of day to someone who just expects to turn up and be spoonfed.
Once upon a time women had no money and were home-bodies who relied on men for their income - they're out the home now (men didn't keep them there, by the way, women came out of the homes because the jobs have simultaneously moved from manufacturing to service industries where women's better social skills have matched with nicer work to do - all this business about men trapping women in the home is a load of twaddle - men have always been the gender who pay the price for the 'nasty stuff' first).
Paying for yourself goes hand in hand with getting more 'equality'. Men should have the same rights. | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 11 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 1:25:04 AM | ^^^ Its just been posted...check again.
As for the OP...
1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Meh...
Well I do expect a man to pay for the first date or first coffee meet. So shoot me.
Now before I get into it...let me say, there are women who deliberately make it their lifes work to be freeloaders. They are not the topic of MO, so let me state that upfront.
My right to vote and equal pay didnt come with the stipulation or forfeiture that a man still cant flex the qualities of a gentleman.
Infact...and I understand there's a difference to a casual internet meet and a date...but if I guy asks to meet me for coffee and I accept...I do expect him to pick up the tab.
Im not interested in gettin into a pissing contest over who does how much cos Ive made up my mind and as a rule, men do faaaar less.
I know there is a minority that exist (well done guys)...but Ive never met a man who works a full time job (or runs a business)...comes home, cleans the house, cooks the dinner, bathes the children and supervises homework. Ive never met a man who does it all but I can lay claim to nearly every woman I know doing it (and alot of them do have partners)
I really dont think that its an effort maintain some decorum to your sex and pay for a woman you're supposed to be romancing & forging a relationship with.
Dont pull that equality BS on me...its usually a friggen cuppa coffee...how lazy and cheap exactly do men wanna get? | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 1:30:35 AM |
Just realised the last post on this was in 2005.
Incorrect. 2005 is when the lovely elecbabe started using the forums, Solar.
OP, I'm afraid men walk on eggshells for this one, often because of experience. Personally, I will happily pick up the tab...but then, there are some women who are offended by that.
I typically offer anyway, and if they respond by offering to split things I mention that it's not necessary...but I don't insist beyond that.
Personally, it's not something I would normally discuss beforehand. The focus should be on the two people on the date and the interaction between them....not on the money. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 1:33:48 AM | Kyn,
I don't see it as being cheap and lazy, but heh, we're allowed to have opinions. I get where you are coming from. Your observations on the differences between a coffee meet and a date are similar to my own views.
As for workload, there would be a number of men who share equal custody with their ex (I did, for three years until very recently). It was I who had to do the workload in my household, of course. "So what?" I suppose. Correct, but this illustrates just how much what we term the 'family unit' has changed over the last forty years, and our expectations of what our roles should be.
I guess chivalry is not a bad thing, though; I still open the car door for my date/partner, and pull the chair out for her to sit on, etc. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 1:42:05 AM | I think the term dutch has come about because the divide in men and womens wages have narrowed over the years. And also women are more independent now and want to be seen and appreciated that they are equal.
Now saying this I would get a clip behind the ears from my grandmother if I didnt pay for dinner. | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 15 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:00:00 AM | ^^^ I dont disagree with you enfp.
and our expectations of what our roles should be.
You said it earlier...
Seems like some people want the benefits of being in a modern world with some of the benefits of old-world values, and that goes for both sexes
Unfortunately men will often assume or argue that being an equal is synonymous with losing the feminine identity or male losing the masculine...and those issues have absolutely nothing to do with equal rights, its irrelevant.
I deserve to be treated like a lady regardless of whether or not I work and it doesnt nullify a man behaving like a gentleman.
Chivalry is most admirable...and whining or arguing that it is such a massive effort & you dont have to do it is pretty much a sure fire way to initiate contempt from a woman.
As for your personal position enfp congratulations...my hat goes off to you  | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:02:38 AM | I don’t mind those who take a Dutch angle to dating. I feel that it’s presumptuous and impolite to expect anyone to pay my way. Of course, I will be flattered and not argue with a man if he offers to pick up the check (to argue about it would be impolite, as well). If he buys the meal or movie tickets, I’ll offer to get the after-dinner drinks or the tasty treats at the snack bar. If he’s traveled a distance to meet me, I’ll offer to pick up the dinner tab. I don’t hold a sense of entitlement simply because I am a woman. I think offering to pay my way or pitch in on the evening expenses is just the polite thing to do.
The search for your ideal is an arduous process, and I imagine that there are far, far, FAR more dates that don’t result in a match than there are successful ones. Keeping that in mind, many women also expect the man to do the “asking”; so, if the man “must ask” and the man “must pay”, and it takes a while to find your match, dating is going to be a rather costly venture for the guys. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:20:00 AM | wow I guess I'm in the minority , I can't imagine *NOT* paying for myself on a *first* date/meeting , from there usually the I pay once , he pays the next kinda falls into place.
I've *NEVER* had a problem with who pays for a first date, I have never expected that because a guy suggested we meet up that meant he was going to pay for parking, dinner.drinks etc, I think I've been really lucky in that many of the guys I have met for first dates have insisted on paying but to go into a first date *expecting* that is just silly. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:25:23 AM | | Yea I agree, who ever asks has to pay! It's the same as if I offered someone a lift to work...then asked for half the fuel money when I got there!!! The thing I would say is that when you have a relationship going then consider spitting the bill .... | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:33:55 AM | Remember the american way is the right way. It is wrong to be dutcha nd int he word's of al Bundy it is wrong to be french!
On a first date the guy should play unless its agreed beforehand. Maybe these profuiles need mroe honesty and people should start lsiting their weight. So that when I meet somneone they are not hiding a huge bulging pot belly that you can;t see becuase of the "myspace" angles. you know the pictures that make you look good but kinda of lie. You dont; see the huge 50lbs belly or the 6th toe sloth. meaning your few extra pouns becuase a 200+ lbs whale of a date. Do I look like captain Ahab &Tom Arnold fused into one person? everyone needs to be more honest on thsi site. I probably get rejected before even getting a frist date ebcuase am too honest. I am 5'3" and a half inches tall and weigh 160lbs. I pay ont he first date. I don;t have any physical abnormailities or diseases. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 3:19:21 AM |
Im not interested in gettin into a pissing contest over who does how much cos Ive made up my mind and as a rule, men do faaaar less.
I know there is a minority that exist (well done guys)...but Ive never met a man who works a full time job (or runs a business)...comes home, cleans the house, cooks the dinner, bathes the children and supervises homework. Ive never met a man who does it all but I can lay claim to nearly every woman I know doing it (and alot of them do have partners)
woooowww there Kyn. There's a lot of anger in your post and unfairly so. Yes, there are men out there who fail to carry their share of the workload in the home but there are many also who work very hard both out of the home and in it. And you know what it works both ways, it is not a gender thing. How many women sit at home doing minimal to add to the family income if at all. There are two sides to the story and one cannot point the finger at any one gender. I know many men who share in the responsibility of caring for children and conducting household chores on top of working full-time - plus overtime - you're just mixing with the wrong men.
On the subject of paying 'dutch', I personally pay my way and prefer to do so yet if and when another offers to pay I will do the same in return when the opportunity arises. | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 22 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 4:58:27 AM | Dont confuse anger with my tendency to call BS or tolerate ridiculous arguments citing equality for another "reason" re. laziness when it comes to decent male behavior & their capability of behaving like gentleman by whining about paying for a coffee or even dinner if its the case.
Its nothing personal...my ex husband and I never had these issues...and so for me Ive been astounded at the absolute lack of effort most men contribute in general to anything.
Yes, there are men out there who fail to carry their share of the workload in the home but there are many also who work very hard both out of the home and in it.
There are alot more who dont. Its just the way it is.
How many women sit at home doing minimal to add to the family income if at all
The only women I know who contribute nothing financially are caring for children.
The 3 men I know who sit at home contributing nothing financially...do not.
I know many men who share in the responsibility of caring for children and conducting household chores on top of working full-time - plus overtime
You live in the exact same Melbourne as I do.
Most of the men I work with are from broad demographics including area & financial brackets and they simply do not go home & do their "share" in comparison to a female.
- you're just mixing with the wrong men
Oh I mix with them...Im just not silly enough to brag to the world how much they help when in reality...all they've done is take the rubbish out. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 23 | |
| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 5:11:42 AM | I always offer to pay half the tab, no matter what "tab" it is. I have found that men actually do appreciate that a woman offers. I must admit, that there is a "minority" of women out there who literally utilize men to eat and get free drinks, I personally feel this is pathetic.
I do sympathize with men in the dating sector. If a man keeps meeting the wrong women and he picks up the tabs for EVERYTHING, this can turn into an expensive venture. Can you only imagine having the pressure that men do indeed have on the dating scene in reference to this topic? The man is according to our society expected to pick up the tab for dinner or whatever, and there is no guarantee of a second date, therefore, I can understand a man only wanting to do coffee or something cheap until they discover someone is genuinely interested in them.
In defense of the "good" women out there on the dating scene. Yes, there are men out there who will not communicate and just "assume" you are picking up half the bill, this is why we women more than likely SHOULD discuss it before the date/meeting, one doesn't want to be embarrassed of being stuck with no money or being caught up in surprise.
I feel that until things turn serious, if it does indeed go that far with two people, women should offer to pay half, if the man refuses your attempt, so be it, but just offer, it's the nice and thoughtful thing to do, ESPECIALLY if you have no intentions of seeing them again. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:20:25 AM | | I guess I'm a bit old fashioned, if a man asks me out for the first time, then I would expect him to pay. That being said, I do take money or a credit card with me, in case there is a "misunderstanding". If a guy can't afford to pay for a cup of coffee, in my opinion, he can't afford to date. Going forward after that, I'd want us to take turns. Dating doesn't always have to cost money. | |
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| 1st Date Expecting Dutch without discussing beforehand
Posted: 2/24/2008 10:27:41 AM | This has been one of my pet peeves for a long time. I could understand back when women were not expected to work, bring home the money or pay the bills. These days I think a lot of us make more than our male counterparts. I remember having this conversation with one of my male friends who met a lady he really liked and they were having a blast. But the money thing was becoming an issue. I asked him if she ever paid and he said no. I asked how in the world he is paying for all of this. He pulled out his credit card. I was really ashamed of my sex! I couldn't afford to be a man. And I really don't know how a man could respect a woman who is basically taking him for a free ride for weeks or months on end.
When I had my profile unhidden and active I stated in there that I prefer to pay my own way. I think it leaves us more on equal ground. And nobody comes out of the date expecting to "be paid back :-)" | |
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