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| Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 1:26:10 AM | There is another thread labelled "Terrorism" (started by Zeppish), which went off topic into gun control. I wish to respond to certain ideas expressed (also by Zeppish, in the same thread but in different posts). I have numbered the quotes I wish to respond to, and my comments follow.
>>> Note to Zeppish: I wish to debate the issue, not bash people; my apologies as I know my tongue is often sharp <<<
<1>Guns are the most evil thing ever invited... like seriously...if you have one your bound to get yourself killed one way or any other
Is it my imagination, or is this a prejudiced statement, with no foundation in reality? I disagree as to the idea that simple posession of a certain tool causes one to turn suicidal. Nor does it CAUSE someone to become so stupid they cannot manage to keep themself alive.
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<2>Because if you kill somebody...then a police officer will want to kill you...and probly will...Or you just get spun into the circle of hate ...where everybody has guns and everybody wants to kill you and you want to kill everyone ... you understand?
OK BUDDY, I recommend cutting a little more baking soda into your crack, your current mixture seems to be a little strong. If I DO kill somebody, it's not necessarily murder. Many people who shoot others have valid reasons--such as self-defense, or an accident, etc. Also, there isn't necessarily going to be a police officer standing right behind the shooter when it happens. Believe it or not, not all crimes get solved. ALSO, even if someone does murder another with a gun, proper legal proceedure is not to send some renegade cop to just go shoot the guy. We ARREST the accused and give him a trial; in some states (if found guilty) the murderer may get the death sentence, which does not include getting shot in any state I know of.
And what is this "circle of hate"? Oh right, it's a gimmicky phrase you came up with, which sounded decent at the time you posted. Uh-huh, "Oh, I just shot someone, I better wait here until my Fairy Death-Mother comes and sprinkles me with 'permanant insanity' dust." Yup, "I just pulled a trigger, now I'm doomed to be a 24-7 mass-murdering serial-killer genocidal psycho-freak."
"...where everybody has guns and everybody wants to kill you and you want to kill everyone ... you understand?" NO, I DON'T UNDERSTAND. PASS THE CRACK PIPE... NO, WAIT, DON'T DO THAT.
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<3>I'm glad there are laws that want guns to be banned... I dont want anybody to have guns... Not police officers, not criminals...not anybody...
Umm, except that the laws banning guns don't ban them from police or other authorities. Matter 'o fact, they can carry much more potent ones than us. If THAT sounds like a good start to you, read up on the beginnings of Nazi Germany. The people were told that all guns were to be banned, then armed authorites (oopsie!) took advantage of their status and, well, the rest is history (BAD history).
And as for the criminals, well, they're going to hold on to their guns as fervently as the NRA folks. You'll never take guns away from the criminals. Sorry.
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<4>Guns also create a lot of terrorism...and i am against terrorism indeed it is stupid....
Thank you for informing me that guns cause terrorism. I am going to throw away all my razors and knives before my posession of them causes me to become suicidal. I will support legislation banning matches and lighters before everyone becomes an arsonist. I will also support legislation against gasoline over 98 octane, before all Americans become illegal street racers who gleefully run over children.
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<5>once you have a gun in your hand people see you as a threat and they will want to kill you before you kill them,....do you understand this? IF YOU HAVE A GUN YOU CAN STILL DIE....not only that YOUR PROBLY MORE LIKELY TO DIE.
I went to a shooting range once, does this mean that we all shot each other (OH MY GOD, THAT MAN HAS A GUN!! KILL, KILL!! Oh, and I guess this means there's really no such thing as cops, as they would be shot on site for carrying a gun, right?
Oh, and if I don't have a gun, then I become the Highlander and I'm immortal, eh?
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<6>Also if a person is a threat...he/she is a threat but they are still PEOPLE and its horrible to kill people
You obviously have no concept of the word "threat". Perhaps to you it refers to some childhood bully, who can either be talked out of beating you up for your lunch money, or if nothing else you can go crying to mommy. Sorry buddy, just because you've never been raped or beaten unconscious repeatedly by the same person doesn't mean there aren't psychos out there that do these things. I've been through both these experiences and I often ponder whether I did the right thing by letting these A-holes live. Had I taken their lives, there are countless others who would not have relived my nightmare. This could have been prevented if only I'd had the balls to take my self-defense to the level of taking another's life. Sometimes it really is justified.
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<7>Maybe its just my ethics here, bUt you take away ALL GUNS and there wont be a need for gun controal...
Define "gun". Does this include blackpowder-firing devices? Muskets? Crossbows? Pellet guns? Slingshots? Let's say you're right, and this does happen. Maybe we won't need "gun control", but violence will still happen, and there will always be the need to control something else. And then something else, and so on and so forth.
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<8>Its a lot better to slap someone accross the head and say "dont do it again " then to shot them in the face dont you think?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. You slap a teenager across the head and say "don't do it again" when they get sassy with their mother, or sniff glue. This solution does not work for a single one of the millions of criminals out there, or for the serious crimes they commit.
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<9>"guns dont kill people...people kill people" why? have you heard most of the answers from people who shoot someone...
Have YOU? Have you interviewed a large number of people that have shot others and determined that it was posession of a firearm that caused them to go crazy 100% of the time? Perhaps you read a report like this? Can you quote ANYTHING to back yourself up, or are you just spewing over-emotional reality-optional garbage?
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<10>They are usualy the childern in the ghettos of america who where rasised without education and stuck on there survial skills ...but you can find a lot better wayh to deal with a problem then to shoot somebody, you know?
Respectully, I truly agree with you on the last part. AND I do see where "packin' chrome" has been so over-glamorized by media -- aimed at "ghetto" youth particularly -- that pointless shootings have escalated to horrendous levels, particularly in "ghetto" areas, and by uneducated people. Still, the statement as a whole is a wishy-washy dumping of emotionally-based preconceived PREJUDICED notions.
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<11>they are the wuss way of dealing with problems
This is only true in the problems that arise from 2 people running their mouth too much. As far as I'm concerned, this statement comes from people who don't want to get shot. That is, the WUSSES.
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<12>You dont want to work things out, you dont want to punch him instead or call 9-1-1 ...instead you want to shoot him, thats lame
Ok, I'll burn your house down, rape your mother and siblings, crack one of your kneecaps with an aluminum bat, and steal all that you own. I give you a phone in one hand and a gun in the other. You have 3 choices: shoot me, call 911, or better yet let's just work things out.
BUDDY, not all shootings happen over petty arguments.
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<13>I was rasied in a family that tought me to fight... with my barehand.s.... i took boxing classes and karate... And i can fight my way out of anything...
....they taught you TO fight, or HOW to fight? If you are one of the people that repeatedly tries to pick a fight w/ me, I'll add your name to my list of reasons why I carry a Beretta.
Respectfully, I do think that knowing martial arts is better than carrying a gun, when dealing with 99% of the petty BS that the (violent) morons dump on us. My suggestion is to also take some speech & debate classes, because you may be good w/ your fists but you logic is ... well ... somewhere between atrocious and non-existant.
PEACE | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 2:51:50 PM | No one should be owning a gun on any circumstance. There are other ways for one to protect themselves. I know if i had a gun 2 years ago i would be dead. So there is truth in the whole suicidal thing.
Not to mention the children getting a hold of there parents guns and killing people with them. Thats enough proof there to take them away. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 3:30:11 PM | | I still believe properly regulated, such as having to lock your gun away at the local shooting range, incl. sign-ins & sign-outs for a day of hunting will work, with the least risk factor, without completely infringing on the freedom & right to own one. A good compromise exists and can be made to work. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 8:31:29 PM | | if you think guns are bad because they can and do kill people, then you must also think cars are bad because they kill more people in this country, then you must also think knives, bats, rocks, ect are bad because they kill people too.... well it is like this objects just are it is people who make bad choices who kill people.. those people are kill with all sorts of objects and the facts are that the bad people don't care about having a gun illegally. So all you are doing is taking away the rights of the good people to stop the bad people WOOOO that’s right according to FBI statistics over 90% of the time when the good guy pulls the gun out to defend themselves it stops any crime from happening. A four state stud compiled from criminal records from counties, states, and the FBI showed that if every state adopted shall issue conceal carry permits it would stop 65,000 murders, rapes, assaults, robberies, and other violent crimes.. A propaganda push has been made in every country to ban weapons prior to genocide.. Hitler order the seizure of guns, then killed millions, Stalin order the seizure of guns then killed millions, these other countries had gun control then followed in genocide, Uganda, Cambodia, Laos, China, ect... I could write 20 pages of straight facts of why it is inherently dangerous to restrict law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves.... Today we have organizations like million moms march which stated "40,000 children die from handgun accidents in the US each year" The year the statement was made the FBI reported a total of 14 deaths of 18 or younger from accident involving a pistol.. So what is the 40,000 well if you add up all gun deaths in the US, gang violence, hunting accidents, cops shooting the bad guy, it doesn't even reach 40,000 people... Don't believe what people are telling you if they don't back it up with legitimate facts other wise your just buying into someone else’s emotions and opinions... :) | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 8:40:26 PM | "Not to mention the children getting a hold of there parents guns and killing people with them. Thats enough proof there to take them away."
such ignorance, thats nothing to do with guns..more like bad parenting..my father taught me and all my brothers about good gun control..we knew exaclty were he kept them all..he also taught us right from wrong..my dad also locked his guns up..some parents are so stupid they will just stick a gun in a drawer and expect there kids to not look in it..guns arent bad or evil..people are, and guns dont kill people..people kill people.. a gun sitting on a table wont hurt you.. until somebody picks it up and shoots it.. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 8:42:20 PM | And these are the people that have a hold of guns. Parents that are so "Stupid"
So basically its okay for stupid people to have guns in your flawed logic. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 9:04:19 PM | | 14 thats how many 18 or younger dead from pistol accident... in one year in the US, The far majority were the result of an adult accidently discharging the weapon not the kid getting ahold of the gun.... and the numbers are very low not the thousands being reported by some oraganizations.... | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 9:14:38 PM | | lrs shadow im not talking about accidents im talking about murders with parents weaponry. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 9:40:07 PM | Here's a website for you interest... I'm from Canada... we have much stricter laws here about gun control, and here's proof that it works...
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/notes/canus/default.asp
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/14/2004 11:39:00 PM | | i dont care, i bare the right to own a gun..and no one is gonna take that away from me..its not my gun you have to be afraid of..its my fist..they do damage too..you gonna take those away too? fist kill people too..your gonna take away peoples right to bare fist? you say if you had a gun a while back you would have killed yourself..i dont believe that..if you really wanted to end it all you would of found some other way of doing it..im sure you were depressed; but saying you didnt commit suicide based on that you didnt have a gun is complete and utter bullshit... | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 11 | |
| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 12:10:11 AM | Canadian eh?....gun control doesn't work. If fact, it just makes things much harder for the law abiding citizens, who have guns and use them responsibly. Basically taking our weapons away and leaving us defenseless against criminals, and unable to defend home, property or ourselves with lethal force.
IF I had weapon, I would not bother registering it....costs too much, and is really nobodys' business if I do have one or not. Want to find out? Try breaking into my home in the middle of the night. You'll find out right damned quick! Will the cops bug me about it afterwards? Maybe...maybe not...Will I get charged with anything? Maybe...maybe not. But get it in front of a jury, and I can tell you right now, I'd be walking out free. Why? Cause I'd make darned sure they believed in defending themselves, their homes, and their loved ones before they got to sit on that jury.
Gun registry here is almost dead...thankfully....and all it really was, was a tool for the police to use for when they responded to calls. They would know if there was a weapon in the house. BUT...like car registry, it became a "shopping list" for criminals. Any weapon you wanted, they would know where one was, and could go get it for you, for a price. Just like car registry....criminals hacked into the puters, and got it all....so make your pick, pay your money, and "voila"....a car...or a gun....to your specifications. Couple years ago a criminal gang broke into a gun collectors house....took the pieces they wanted, and left....got their shopping list" from a hacker.
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 12:35:58 PM | | If it doesn't work... then how do you explain the proof... it does work... Canada has an extreme amount less deaths due to guns, even per capita... You can't argue stats... and about the fist comment... Maybe we should take em' away if we should be scared of them... violence doesn't solve anything... any mature mind can appreciate that... | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 1:06:09 PM | I'm with nya6 & Pakana here.
It can be regulated without taking away the right to bear arms/guns.
Further, those statistics do not differentiate nor make a breakdown between legally registered and underground contraband weapons. The reduction of weapon incidents is likely due to the heavy overlooming (5) year limited jail terms for possessing one. Virtually all such prosecutions are from contraband weapons, not legally registered ones. In fact, those who are licensed to carry guns are the ones that comply with law and safety measures and support responsible use.
Violence and Gun ownership are not synonomous.
I believe in very strict regulations and gun safety procedures, but I also believe in Thomas Jefferson's writings in the freedom and right to bear arms. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 1:18:16 PM | nya6
"Try breaking into my home in the middle of the night. You'll find out right damned quick! Will the cops bug me about it afterwards? Will I get charged with anything?"
Unfortunately, you'll do time if you hurt/injure someone with a gun, even though your life might very well have been at stake. Point a gun at someone, even if you were to die if you did'nt shoot, you could still do up to (5) five years for that.
Owning, pointing or discharging a handgun at someone (any of these 3) is good enough for up to 5 in the clink.
But if you were to R.I.P. a guy during a B & E with a baseball bat, you'll walk scott-free.
You might even become the neighbourhood hero. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 2:51:18 PM | | well pakana i took a Bottle of asprin and woke up in a hospital... Im sure if that was a bullet through my skull i would not have had such luck. | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 16 | |
| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/15/2004 11:30:36 PM | Ticket...you are probably right. Seen that scenario happen to a guy I knew...pointed a weapon at an intruder and he got 2 years for it! But then again...I don't point a weapon at anyone, unless I am going to use it.
A friend will help you move...a good freind will help you move a body! | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/16/2004 10:21:55 AM | ~*lol*~
The Standing Orders of the Wild West. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/17/2004 7:28:30 PM | In my neck of the woods(small city, western Canada) my gun cost $500 aproximately...then there was the 4 miles of red tape and waiting period.......an aquaintance with questionable associations got the same make and model, in similar condition, $25, no paperwork, 1/2 hour.
Gun registration works?
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/17/2004 8:18:18 PM | I like my sword. A much more elegant weapon.
If someone breaks in at night, they will leave in two body bags.
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 20 | |
| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 6:55:00 AM | gun registration? lol...just shows how easy it really is to get a weapon "by the back door", for the more "criminal minded"....
Two body bags? LOL....doubt it...you know how hard it really is to chop anyone into two pieces? Try it out on a side of beef! | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 10:50:33 AM | | yna- LOL I can't even cut bread! LOL | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 11:22:23 AM | Well well, I forget to check the thread I started for a couple of days, and look at the responses! Thanks very much to all who participated, I haven't seen anything but great responses so far. For the record, I know that my opinions aren't going to change any laws, and I doubt I'll change anyone's mind either. But I sure do love the debate.
Thank you Seebass for offering some stats in favor of your position. I would like to offer my counterpoints if I may.
If Canada has much stricter firearm control laws than the US, you can expect that there will be fewer firearms owned, in general and per capita; then of course there will be fewer crimes involving firearms as well. Notice that there are more bicycle owners per capita, and in total, in China than there are in the US. Assuredly there are more bicycle accidents, and few car accidents, there than here. It doesn't mean that Americans are better cyclists than Chinese, or that bikes are really dangerous things.
Your website also states that crime rates are higher in the US than Canada. I can easily believe that -- Canadians are some darn good folk, as far as I remember but I haven't been to Canada in many years. These 2 stats, "Americans are more likely to own a gun" and "America has a higher crime rate" DO SEEM to be related, but they may not necessarily be so.
For example, what happens when you look at some other stats? America has a much more culturally diverse population. Arrest records show that Blacks and Hispanics are arrested far more frequently than Whites and Asians. (I blame this on racist cops, but that's a different thread...) So perhaps our higher crime rate comes from having more "minorities"? Also, it's hotter in the US than in Canada. Houston, Miami and LA all have high crime rates, perhaps it's the heat that makes people go mad? Oooh, and Canadians have more colorful money than we do. Perhaps all the pretty colors are soothing? On a less ridiculous note, the US has really horrible public education. I'm sure that Canadian high-school graduates are much more literate than Americans... and it's not unreasonable to assume that literate and educated people can find non-violent ways of dealing with situations.
I know some of these sound rediculous, but a country's crime rate will be the result of a WIDE variety of influences, not just one. Laws regarding firearms probably have little or nothing to do with the number of incidences of people killing each other with knives or bats.
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On another note, I recommend a book called "Unintended Consequences". It's fiction but has a LOT of fact buried in it. It a long book, but reads very quickly, and leaves you with many simple but deep things to digest. (John Ross, Accurate Press)
Peace. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 12:17:59 PM | what your saying are you crazy.. people don't just think oohh i would like to shoot some one today... that is just stupid.. people get angry, crazy, vengful, ect and they think "I WANT TO KILL YOU" can't find a gun, no problem grab a knife, no knife, how about a large blunt object, look at these studies
Using cross-sectional time-series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravate assaults would have been avoided yearly. http://deepwaterweb.com/gunstudy.htm
University of Chicago Study JOHN R. LOTT, JR. and DAVID B. MUSTARD
this show that the more gun controll you have the more crime to include genocide... yah genocide every country in history that had genocide or mass murder had strick arms controll. all the way back thousands of years ago. this is why the founding fathers gave us citizens the right to keep and bare arms.
this is the differences in the argument one is based on feellings and emotions and stories the other side is based on facts and studies conducted by law enforcement agencies.
this is a four state study to back up the reduction in crime http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/pdf/multstat.pdf
between 1991 1995 guns accounted for only 1% of all deaths in the US
also http://www.mnccrn.org/ccrn_old/ccrn.html
Lott: Criminals are deterred by higher penalties. Just as higher arrest and conviction rates deter crime, so does the risk that someone committing a crime will confront someone able to defend him or herself. There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate—as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent. | |
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 2:09:12 PM | Just a couple thoughts:
I read somewhere about a country that required each male to join the army for 2 years. At the end of the 2 years they returned home(if they wished) as part of the reserves, taking their army rifle home with them. This country had an incredibly low violent crime rate. They claimed it was because the criminals knew that in each home was a rifle, and someone who knew how to use it. I've been searching in google to find this research paper, I keep thinking that it's a Scandinavian country. If some one can find this it would be great.
Also, I don't really believe that Canada's gun control laws are the cause of a lower crime rate(see my previous post). To compare USA and Canada is not realistic....we have a larger land mass and a smaller population...so, for the most part, aren't as densely populated. True, in major cities, it could be comparable, but not over all.
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| Re: Gun Control
Posted: 9/18/2004 2:19:13 PM | | LOL @ Damiana... I believe the country you are thinking of is Switzerland. Yes, every male is required to join the Army (2 years or 4?), and for the rest of their life they are REQUIRED to keep a gun .... not only that, but a FULL-AUTO, and they have to keep a minimum amount of ammo as well. Notice that in WWII Hitler suffered many a great setback in avoiding Switzerland, but avoided it nonetheless. | |
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