| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/26/2008 2:42:30 PM | I'd like to hear opinions on this matter. I personally believe granting Kosovo's independence ( which truly is granting because the Kosovars did not win their independence but were offered it by the USA in concurrence with a few other Western nations) opened a Pandora's box for instability in the area. Here's what's brewing:
1. Serbs in Bosnia are already protesting for their own independence.
2.Serbs in Kosovo pledge allegiance to Serbia and want to partition from Kosovo
3. Albanians in Montenegro and F.Y.R.O.M are dreaming of a greater Albania
4. F.Y.R.O.M is dreaming of "liberating" Macedonia in northern Greece
5. Bulgaria is seeking "lost country" in eastern F.Y.R.O.M.
6. Voivodina in northern Serbia is flirting with Hungary
7. Hungarian minority in Romania is demanding autonomy
8. Muslim minorities in Bulgaria and Greece feel equal to their Kosovarian cousins
9. Greeks in northern Epirus (southern Albania) yearn for attachment to Greece
Looking up the term 'Balkanization" in the dictionary one finds: 'a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other'.
Blaming Kosovo's independence alone is not a reason to assume that the Balkans will live up to its name but how this was accomplished is.
I believe when a country gains its independence not on its own but by the support of the only superpower who decides against international and legitimate law and against UN resolutions (no. 1244) and against taking the matter to the security council, will only fuel nationalistic intentions and feelings and awaken buried prides of the past to reignite.
Although one may feel sympathetic to the Kosovars let us not forget these two very important facts:
1. Kosovo was never a nationalistic entity in Yugoslavia like Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro or Bosnia were. It was a province of Serbia, a part of Serbia which happened to be populated mostly by Albanians, a minority in Serbia. An analogy, as rediculous as it may seem, would be to grant southern California independence because it is populated mainly by Mexicans, or southern Florida because of its Cuban population.
2. The UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) had already started paramilitary guerilla warfare in the 90's. Its campaign against Serbian security forces precipitated a major Serbian military crackdown which led to the Kosovo War of 1998-1999.
As I see it Serbia was defending its own country just like any country would do if a liberation movement from a minority got wild.
Think about it, if a minority in your own country took up arms and started a bloody campaign, how would your goverment react?
I agree that ethnic cleansing was not a good choice. The perpetrators were brought to justice and some are still at large. But does that condemn a whole nation? Does that condemn all Serbs to lose their most sacred land, Kosovo? Were the German people at fault for WWII or their Nazi leaders? The Nuremberg trials condemned their leaders, not their people, and it did not take land away from Germany even though genocide occured. With the same logic, a Jewish country should have been formed within Germany. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/26/2008 4:11:52 PM | | It was the government policy to kill the men and rape the women and girls of the majority population of Kosovo. Pretty tough to ask them to stay in a country that sought their extermination. If the Canadian government had that policy towards francophones in Quebec, I'd support their seperation. And Quebec is at least as important to Canadians as Kosovo is to Serbians. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/26/2008 4:31:11 PM |
I agree that ethnic cleansing was not a good choice. The perpetrators were brought to justice and some are still at large. But does that condemn a whole nation? Does that condemn all Serbs to lose their most sacred land, Kosovo?
Looks like it. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/26/2008 5:50:00 PM | Kosovo was always nationalistic. If you look back at when Turks divided it from Albania, it was just kinda taken by Serbia as it was too weak to be on its own. It was promised autonomy and upon the breaking of the agreement did the UCK form. Similar thing happened with Croatia, Bosnia and so on. Who is to trust Serbians at this point?
UN armies are keeping the peace in Kosovo right now, but they are slowly leaving. Who is to say that in 10 years when the UN clears out another genocide won't occur? So does one protect Serbia's "sacred artifacts" in Kosovo or albanian lives?
This whole fight about land puzzles me. So what if Serbia loses a piece of land? Why not just have them learn to work with Kosovo as a country instead of being totalitarian as they wished to be. The fact is that over 90% of Kosovo is albanian, and there is about 200% Kosovars living outside that regularly visit. It is about time we get to make decision concerning ourself. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/26/2008 6:25:35 PM |
I agree that ethnic cleansing was not a good choice. The perpetrators were brought to justice and some are still at large. But does that condemn a whole nation? Does that condemn all Serbs to lose their most sacred land, Kosovo? Looks like it.
.....and reading message 4, shows it looks like it too! It is difficult to pick which parts of post 4 to refer to, so I'll just speak in general and hope I don't begin to ramble.
Of course Kosovo's independence could not possibly provide stability! Of course the Albanians in Kosovo are in the majority..........the Serbs were forced to leave! Just as the Serbs were forced to leave their homes, in what is now Croatia.
Most people seem to forget that! My Serbian relatives have been displaced at least 3 times in their lifetime. A young relative of mine was killed during the Kosovo fight for independance, whilst just walking down the street.
Whilst ever people feel it is their right to have something, above the rights of others, cloaking it thus:
This whole fight about land puzzles me. So what if Serbia loses a piece of land? Why not just have them learn to work with Kosovo as a country instead of being totalitarian as they wished to be.
Immediately following it with a statement like this:
The fact is that over 90% of Kosovo is albanian, and there is about 200% Kosovars living outside that regularly visit. It is about time we get to make decision concerning ourself.
....just proves that there is never going to be stability! | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:15:53 AM | Eurogirl, please open your history books because I believe your facts are wrong:
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If you look back at when Turks divided it from Albania, it was just kinda taken by Serbia as it was too weak to be on its own.
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Kosovo was Serbian BEFORE it was Turkish and it was NEVER Albanian
Bulgarian Empire (850 to 1014)
Byzantine Empire (1014 to 1180)
Serbian Empire (1180 to 1455)
Ottoman Empire (1455 to 1912)
In 1912, during the Balkan Wars, most of Kosovo was taken by the Kingdom of Serbia, while the region of Metohija was taken by the Kingdom of Montenegro.
Following the First Balkan War of 1912, Kosovo was internationally recognised as a part of Serbia and Metohia as a part of Montenegro at the Treaty of London in May 1913.
Following the end of the WWII and the establishment of Tito's Communist regime, Kosovo was granted the status of an autonomous region of Serbia in 1946
In 1996 the KLA launched a guerrilla war, characterised by regular bomb and gun attacks on Yugoslav security forces, state officials and civilians known to openly support the national government. In March 1998, Yugoslav army units joined Serbian police to fight the separatists, using military force.
In 1996 the population in Kosovo was 2,000,000 Albanians and 2,000,000 Serbs. Now they are 2,000,000 Albanians and 200,000 Serbs. Who are the refugees? Easy way to make up a majority as a reason to claim independence. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:40:20 AM | _________________________________________________________
This whole fight about land puzzles me. So what if Serbia loses a piece of land?
So does one protect Serbia's "sacred artifacts" in Kosovo or albanian lives?
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Eurogirl I see you are from Canada. I like your country. I believe it is a land of prosperity and freedom, and I'd love to live there. But one day Quebec will become independent, and if you truly love your country you will find out what it is like to "lose a piece of land" or some "sacred artifacts", which in Canada's case may mean losing in the economy for the rest of Canada since between 1997 and 2007, Quebec enjoyed an increase in labour productivity that exceeded the Canadian and Ontario averages.
www.dec-ced.gc.ca/Complements/Publications/ADT2003/en/Intro_Som.html
Whereas in Serbias case "sacred artifacts" means losing sacred land, identity, culture ,history, pride. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:43:04 AM | ____________________________________________
Entaki has proved that Kosovo belongs to Bulgaria, not Serbia.
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Im sorry I missed your point. How did you come to that conclusion? With that logic Florida belongs to Spain and Texas to Mexico. And even more, all the US belongs to Native Americans | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 10:57:11 AM | you will find out what it is like to "lose a piece of land" or some "sacred artifacts"
Ok, say Quebec split off from Canada and became an independant country. So what?
Can I still drive there? Yes, the country of Quebec can be found just where it used to be. Do they still have roads and restaurants? Yup. Galleries ? Check. Shops and parks? Yes.
So all that's really happened is you've lost control of Kosovo, not Kosovo itself.
Perhaps it's a shame and perhaps in 300 years there will still be poeple complaining about this, but it seems to me the smart money is on moving on and enjoying your life, | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 11:40:05 AM | ___________________________________________________________
Perhaps it's a shame and perhaps in 300 years there will still be poeple complaining about this, but it seems to me the smart money is on moving on and enjoying your life,
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I guess so , if all in life you care about is having fun, which is alright, but there are other passions in life that other peolple pour endorphines over, like dignity, pride, folklore wisdom, culture, ancestry, history.
Enjoying life is everyones goal. Doing it in a selfish nonchalant individualistic vain manner is also your right, and a very self-serving one. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 12 | |
| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 1:04:56 PM | Since Entatiki wants to go as far as first millenium, should we onwards back in time? ;) Romans and... wups, Illyrians (sort of ancestors, at least, what becomes to linguistical studies).
Isn't it, though, so that nationalism in Balkan was born 19th century and only then the real need for drawing borders according a nationality popped up? - Kosovo polje, the myth, seems to have been useful in different time periods. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:58:14 PM | The division of land never bring peace.
Pakistan and India one example
Israeli and Palestinian conflict another example.
Yeah I am a Muslim and I should be cheering for Muslims of Kosovos. However, no. I am against the division of land. It never resolves any thing. In fact, historically it is proven it messes up the entire peace in the whole region for many generations to come. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/28/2008 2:46:57 AM | __________________________________________________________
Isn't it, though, so that nationalism in Balkan was born 19th century and only then the real need for drawing borders according a nationality popped up? - Kosovo polje, the myth, seems to have been useful in different time periods.
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Ousu,
Since you are from Finland, a country I admire very much, let me remind you that Finnish nationalism was born in the 19th century as well. I dont mean to know alot about your country's history, something you undoubtebly know more about, but as peaceful as Finland may be, it did have its own nationalistic outburst.
Finnish nationalism arose in the nineteenth century, in part as a reaction against the dominance of the Swedish language in Finland's cultural and political life, and ethnic self-consciousness of Finnish speakers was given a considerable boost by the Russians, who in 1812 moved the capital of Finland from Turku to Helsinki, bringing it closer to St. Petersburg. The University of Helsinki soon became the center of the Finnish nationalist movement. A famous phrase coined in the early nineteenth century summed up Finnish feelings: "We are no longer Swedes; we cannot become Russians; we must be Finns."
The growth of the militant and increasingly powerful Fennoman movement threatened the traditional dominance of the Swedish speakers in Finland, who reacted by forming a Swedish-speaking nationalist countermovement, the Svecoman movement. The main idea of the Svecomans was that the Swedish-speakers of Finland were a separate nation from the Finnish-speakers and needed to preserve their Swedish language and culture. The Svecomans became a small but powerful political movement that won the backing of much of the Swedish-speaking community in Finland.
Why am I bringing all this up? To parallel the history of all nations which at some time or another followed similar paths. Finland's Serbia was Sweden, Finland's USA was Russia. Condemning and cursing Serbia is condemning and cursing any country which at some point in their history went through what Serbia is going through today, and this includes countries that have regognized Kosovo as well. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 16 | |
| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/28/2008 12:41:49 PM | Entatiki, thanks for your kind words. Finland's and Kosovo's situations, though, have been pretty different:
Finland got its independency easily: a formal letter, then a corrected version et voilà. Even though nationalism was rising also here at certain period it was pretty peaceful phenomenon. Finland as a granduchy got a lot from Russia compared to the time she was under Swedish regime, had its own law and larger rights than other Russian granduchies... (autonomy since 1809, own money 1863, independence 1917...) Basically, we had been loyal to the tsars (except one who did not understand to let us be in peace) and we had been treated pretty nicely. The Serbs, instead, did not improve the well-being of Kosovo area nor treat people " nicely".
Finland's Serbia was Sweden, Finland's USA was Russia.
- Also, I would not compare Sweden to Serbia... they lost us to Russia, and for us... one or another, who cares, only that this latter master was more helpful than the previous one. And I would not compare Tsars' Russia to the USA - Russia was not exactly a foreign power, just a new master for people whose identity here "in the forest" was not that much depending on a ruler. Before nationalism people were defining themselves according the family, tribe. (What makes this funny is that Finnish tribes have been hanging around on these Baltic shores before there even were the Swedes or many others.) - And see where Finland, with her independence, is now: a nation among the others, doing pretty well. Kosovo could make the same.
Anyway, the reasons when a group of people want their independence are usually in nearer past. The more distant history is used for the justification for the demands. (I think but of course I can be wrong - nowadays I am not sure about anything :) I truly believe, it is best for everybody that Kosovo is independent - the near past is not a good source for a peaceful living. I just wish that the big ones like the US, the UK, Russia... will stay away with their economical/political power games. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/28/2008 1:39:51 PM | | The land area of Kosovo is relatively small and without outside assistance ,will not be economically viable. The reason Kosovo became populated by Albanians was their country could not support their own people. They were forced to go to what was then Yugoslavia to seek employment and a better life. After becoming a majority, there was a nationalistic trend to want their own homeland traditions ,language,schools and so on. A huge mistake by the U.S.,U.K. and others who supported this,as it opens up other minorities to claim their own independence ,ie: the Kurds in Turkey and other areas of the world where there is conflict. Who will be paying to support Kosovo? | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 18 | |
| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/28/2008 1:57:55 PM | without outside assistance ,will not be economically viable
In the beginning, perhaps, but who would not be... And in the future? If the area would not have any natural sources, no one would be interested in it - not Serbs, not Russia, not the US, not many Europeans... (heh, if I am not totally wrong, this little area is the richest in Europe compared to its size) | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 2/29/2008 5:39:57 AM | ___________________________
Who will be paying to support Kosovo?
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Albania is having enough trouble fending for itself, so probably not from there. Since this was the initiative and goal of the US, it is only fair that the tax dollars of ordinary US citizens should pay to support Kosovo. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 3/3/2008 4:12:43 PM | entatiki ... I can't really argue with you on details of politics or history as it's so out of my field that I just know the basics. However, I was there up until the war and moving to this great country (Canada) I have seen the difference freedom (versus the total censorship we had even before war) makes. Do you know how Canada treats Quebec? Do you know that Ottawa is bilingual (and that if you want a good job you NEED to learn french)? Does anyone in Serbia even speak a word of Albanian?
Honestly, it's not even about getting 'land' or 'money' or teaching serbians a 'lesson'. I just don't want my family back home to undergo another ethnic cleansing. Can you imagine being a country with someone that brutally raped you and killed your parents in front of your eyes (cuz i do know a lot of Albanians that went through that in Kosovo). I think safety is just about 10 notches above economy or 'sacret artifacts'. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 3/4/2008 11:01:59 AM | Eurogirl,
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Does anyone in Serbia even speak a word of Albanian?
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Why should they? Kosovo WAS Serbia.
Do the majority of Americans care to learn Spanish? Do the majority of Spaniards care to learn Basque? Do the majority of Britains care to learn Pakistani? Do the majority of Germans care to learn Turkish?
With your reasoning, the Kosovars should have learned to speak Serbian. They were living in Serbia.
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Can you imagine being a country with someone that brutally raped you and killed your parents in front of your eyes (cuz i do know a lot of Albanians that went through that in Kosovo). I think safety is just about 10 notches above economy or 'sacret artifacts'.
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I cant disagree with you there. I am happy your country (Canada) did not enter the war in Iraq, because your statement can parallel what the US has been doing there. Killing parents and families and excusing themselves as collateral damage. ( A few cases of rape as well, although Im sure that was not collateral but intentional damage).
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Honestly, it's not even about getting 'land' or 'money' or teaching serbians a 'lesson'. I just don't want my family back home to undergo another ethnic cleansing
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Im sorry your family had to go through what it did and I hope they are better now. But you must agree, enough with US hypocrisy. If you are punishing a country for ethnic cleansing no double standards please. The US goverment should not have pressured Congress to not vote for the recognition of the Armenian genocide by the Turks. The US should also be in favor of an independent Kurdistan which has been suffering under Turkish rule. Have you ever heard of the Pontian Greek genocide? Probably not, as international politics cover up what is assumed insignificant. Yes I have had family members undergoing ethnic cleansing too. Why are they not champions of freedom there? Genocide tastes the same, whichever glass you drink it from.
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 3/5/2008 1:24:24 AM | Well done to the thread!
The media has made the Serbs out to be animals over the passed 20 years this is purely because they never wanted to sell out all the factories oil and what not to the west. Pretty lame that people watch a bit of cnn or bbc and then think they have an opinion on a war that has gone on for over 500 years.
Kosovo is a part of Serbia as we know, the majority of its population was Albanian in 2008, if you look back at the statistics from lets say 1908, you will easily see a different story. Back then it was maybe 20 Serbs to 2 Albanians. Has anyone stopped to think why the population of Serbs in Kosovo dramatically changed this passed 100 years? Il tell you although it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out.. Its because those Albanian animals drove them away by their drug dealing murdering ways.
My point being you cannot take a part of one country and join it onto the neighbouring country. Oh and another thing this so called ethnic cleansing that was supposedly occuring in 1999, no i wouldnt say ethnic cleansing it was simply sending Albanians back to their homeland the only victims were those KLA extremists who were dressed up as civilians, you are no longer a civilian if you have a machete in one hand and a machine gun in the other.
Fellow POF'S STOP LISTENING TO THE CRAP THE MEDIA SHED OUT! | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 3/5/2008 7:50:48 PM | Lovelyblond, I have never seen a gun in my life and I was kicked out of my house in 1998, on top of that I saw tons of non-armed albanians killed around me as we were walking for days through the woods in a LINE made by serbian soldiers. I lived in a 'refugee' camp for 2 months in a TENT where we waited for hours for food. On top of that I was the lucky ones, that got to make it unlike so many cousins and friends that have lots at least someone in their immediate family. Were you there? Don't tell me it's propaganda when I have actually been there. And no, Albania is not my homeland as me and my great-great grandfather were born in Kosova.
Just look at your language "albanian animals ... drug dealing murdering" ... you reek sensibility. | |
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| Will Kosovo's independence really provide stability in the Balkans?
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:42:49 AM | eurogirl this forum is for peoples opinions i am entitled to my own without having some albanian propagandalist attack it! yes you probably was sent back to albania in 1998 i dont doubt that but you were never killed was you. The Albanians were given hope in kosovo with their own shops, schools and language even, what more could they possibly want? why the need to bully serbs so that they have to leave kosovo? this is why you all got sent packing in the end enough is enough if you dont live in somebodys country and respect their rules then get out!
And no i wasnt in Kosovo but my best friend who is from pec in kosovo was, she and her family were forced to leave in 1992 by the KLA terrorists. They took turns in raping her mother infront of the whole family and killed her youngest sister which was only 2 at the time. Its incidents like this that the world dont hear about as people like yourself make up lies to the west so that you can seek refuge in different countries.
Look at the statistics of Serbs in Kosovo from early last century and then now, 100 years ago there was about 20 Serbians to 2 Albanians in kosovo now the Albanians occupy 92% why???
All the Albanians ive ever known in the UK have infact been drug dealers and have even set up there own money laundering businesses all over London this is the same in New York aswell. The biggest Drug Dealer in Europe is Pecoli he lives in Switzerland currently and is originally from Kosovo. This is the main reason why Kosovo shouldnt be independant it would give the Albanian drug traffickers a hideaway to carry out these illegal activites. | |
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