| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 10:15:27 AM | The psyche or the mind is a power tool, often or at least once in your life time you have heard people said that mind over matters.
Our mind is our consciousness, the physical brain only act merely a translator for our conscious. We as human have been overgrowing with our brain. The mind exists outside of our physical body.
Everyday, weeks, or months the cells in our body are renewing hence, in a year or within few years, our body is made of completely new cells. If you are sitting or standing while you are reading this, your current cells in your body is not the same as yesterday, a week before, a month before heck, it isn’t the same when you were born! The renewing cells process is not even limit to your brain cells either.
So where does our memories, experiences, wisdom, etc goes? Some may cell during the cells renewing process the information is being transferred or it is encrypted into our physical DNA cells and/or etheric body DNA. However, there is certain extend to how much ‘information’ are encrypted. Now what about our memories and experiences?
These memories and experience is store in our memory bank. The memory isn’t our brain as the cells renew often. Even if information, memories, experiences, etc is transferred. There is a limit to how much storage space one could have. It is believable that our storage bank as well as our mind, our consciousness exist outside our body because space is infinite as far as we know.
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 10:32:45 AM | | The brain constantly maintains itself, memory and pathways, its a chemical computer. It doesnt matter if individual cells are replaced the system as a whole maintains the information. Thus nothing is lost, no big mystery. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 10:44:56 AM | I never implied it is a mystery, in my perspective there is some limitation as a human being. Take computer for example, if you have a 120gb memories hard drive, what happen when it get full? Either you delete or perhaps get a flash drive, external hard drive, store it online and etc.
Where does our in this giving example important memories goes? Yes, some people do have painful experience and somehow one day they wake up without remembering them similar to deleting information in the computer. However later something trigger that person to remember their painful experience.
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 11:01:35 AM | | Memory is stored according to the intesity of the experience, which is why important events seem more vivid. Bad meories can be blocked out, just by closing off paths to them, but triggers can reopen pathways quite easily. Read up on neural networks for a better explanation, and maybe psychology. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 11:13:56 AM | | But it still doesn't explain the limitation of our mind storage capacity. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 11:37:49 AM | | What limitation, old memories are put into long term storage, parts deleted, you only need part of memory, the essential feeling at the time for your mind to rebuild it out of other stuff it knows. I've got memories of family birthdays, I can remember particular presents, particular people but the rest of the details are hazy, its usually in my old house, and its normally family memebers, so those details may well come from other memories. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 12:16:22 PM | However there is still no information on how the memories is stored. I ask my professors, read books, and yes research some information online. Still does not say much about it.
The rest of the detail are hazy, it is because it isn't important or bring you great joy in it.
You seem to be a science guy, can you give me a more specific details of how and why of the 'old' memories are put into long term storage or 'parts' get deleted? You may say part of it is deleted because it isn't need. But why is it perhaps you remember some hazy detail of it?
Our brain is limited to functions, memories storage, and etc. how can it not? Knowledge is infinite which limited our brain capacities. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 12:42:24 PM | I cant remember the terminology so I'll try and explain it in simple words, which might be easier with your english lol.
Imagine a room that you see every day, maybe it has different lighting at different time, maybe some details change. But the room itself is constant. Only details change. So the brain stores one picture of the room and links to the details that change. It saves space. In effect the redundant bits are edited out. If you are using something every day then those memories have strong links and you renew them every time you use that memory. Old memories fade into the back ground because they arent used. But some things provoke a recollection and renww those links. Scientists still arent sure exactly where and how its stored, some info
Since the 1970s, however, work on isolated chunks of nervous-system tissue has identified a host of molecular players in memory formation. Many of the same molecules have been implicated in both declarative and nondeclarative memory and in species as varied as sea slugs, fruit flies, and rodents, suggesting that the molecular machinery for memory has been widely conserved. A key insight from this work has been that short-term memory (lasting minutes) involves chemical modifications that strengthen existing connections, called synapses, between neurons, whereas long-term memory (lasting days or weeks) requires protein synthesis and probably the construction of new synapses.
Tying this work to the whole-brain research is a major challenge. A potential bridge is a process called long-term potentiation (LTP), a type of synaptic strengthening that has been scrutinized in slices of rodent hippocampus and is widely considered a likely physiological basis for memory. A conclusive demonstration that LTP really does underlie memory formation in vivo would be a big breakthrough.
Meanwhile, more questions keep popping up. Recent studies have found that patterns of neural activity seen when an animal is learning a new task are replayed later during sleep. Could this play a role in solidifying memories? Other work shows that our memories are not as trustworthy as we generally assume. Why is memory so labile? A hint may come from recent studies that revive the controversial notion that memories are briefly vulnerable to manipulation each time they're recalled. Finally, the no-new-neurons dogma went down in flames in the 1990s, with the demonstration that the hippocampus, of all places, is a virtual neuron nursery throughout life. The extent to which these newborn cells support learning and memory remains to be seen.
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 1:00:36 PM | Although i don't believe in popular theory of mind or consciousness beyond the body I do like your question about memory. What does happen to it? Why are some events such as trauma deleted? Literally deleted or replaced with a similar memory with a different participant? I can attest to this as there is a memory i have of my brother doing something that I apparently did but there is no way i can access this memory. Its like everyone is lying to me. I do know they aren't lying though they have no reason or anything to gain from it. I have huge chunks of my life completely missing years without a single memory at all.
Talk about memory dump...
Where does it all go? Are memories a physical thing? Are they just electricity moving around that need recall to access them? Can electrical impulses be stored indefinitely somewhere in the brain? Is it like cellular memory?
Very curious now. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 10 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 1:15:52 PM | | There is a memory trick about imagining yourself on a journey and each place you stop off at is supposed to remind yourself of a particular item. Memory is like that, individual memories can be altered neurons, or even actual protein configurations. The lump that is the memory is connected by lots of routes, so different things may remind you of a particular aspect of that memory. Imagine it as a city, you have super highways, highways, major roads, minor roads, back roads and dirt tracks. In the case of as trauma, the mind can block it off, effectively blowing up the major routes. But the minor routes are still there it just takes more energy to reach them. Energy in this context seems to mean emotion, but thats why hypnosis works in reaching and unlocking memories, it kills the emotion blocking the main routes. I'm not certain, I dont think a lot of scientists are truly certain how it works exactly, as I posted the link its still being worked on. I've done a lot of work on AI and that means second guessing how the brain works. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 1:18:51 PM | Some memories are stored in the brain and body, but it seems that your soul also contains that information too.
What happen to those who does or some will claim they remember past lives. There is cases where a child went back to his previous life of those people he/she may have contacted and are able to identify or recall events that no other people would know of except for families member or a certain person.
I do believe for people to be able to remember things from past lives and all but, it doesn't mean it is store in the physical body, at least not all of it.
To answer that question at least to my perspective crazylifting, people who has traumatic events that happen to them tend to 'forget' it or block it or simplely believe it happen to someone else. Some may remember the traumatic events but those memories are hazy. There is at least from people I associated with call is losing part of your soul fragment. In another word you toss it away. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 1:24:32 PM | Here is a very interesting program transcription about this very issue.
Check it out.
http://www.closertotruth.com/topics/mindbrain/107/107transcript.html | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 13 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 2/29/2008 1:54:16 PM | I liked the bit about
Remember, we give no assurances about truth--just a promise to get you closer.
Hedging their bets 
There is no substantiated evidence for past life regression though. There are a lot of stories, but no proof. And a lot of evidence that its created by memories we pick up peripherally. A good example is psycho-sorcery; tape a fake news broadcast about alien landing or UFO sightings. Play it on the subway or a bus or train. Not loud, at a volume people can only just hear. The topics of conversation will change across the bus to UFOs like magic. We pick up subliminals all day every day without realizing it and then have odd dreams and wonder why. I took my first steps in Germany, and was found at 6 in the morning cutting guy ropes with a carving knife, I had swords in the house, made swords and ending up living as a knight in my late teens for 3 years, is that past life or just the way my brain is wired. The brain is weird current estimations are that AI will reach human levels by 2020. Thats not self aware but in terms of abilty to comprehend information. The human brain contains so many computational elements that todays biggest machines are only just approaching that figure. It seems daft to go in search of psychic explanations when there is still so much we dont know about the brain itself. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:15:06 AM |
The mind exists outside of our physical body.
Most cognitive scientists and philosophers of the mind would disagree with you, here. Something like the identity theory of mind, or else seeing "mind" as an emergent property of the brain but not a different kind of "substance" is more than likely correct. I like to use the example of a television set. When you turn it on, you may see a person talking in it. But is that person really there? Not at all. That image you see is just an emergent property of a bunch of electrodes and light. The same is true of the mind. Notice, that this "emergent property" theory of the TV explains why the images of this person cease when electricity is cut off to the electrodes. Similarly, dualism does not explain why the physical brain is so bound up with our consciousness, and why "turning off" the brain effectively removes any evidence of consciousness whatsoever. There is no reason to think therei s mind outside of our physical bodies, in short.
The memory isn’t our brain as the cells renew often.
I think your analogy is flawed, and this is causing you to want to posit an immaterial "memory bank" that is not reducible to our physical brain. You probably see the cells in our brain as "containers" holding memories inside them, so if the cells disappear, the memories they "contain" must leave with them. But this is not how memory actually functions in the brain. Memories aren't contained in cells as if they are buckets or storage devices. Rather, they are "contained" in the arrangements of these cells. It is the interrelationships of the cells that produce memories and thoughts. It doesn't matter if one cells dies and another replaces it, so long as a connection and interrelationship remains. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:56:35 PM |
Memories aren't contained in cells as if they are buckets or storage devices. Rather, they are "contained" in the arrangements of these cells. It is the interrelationships of the cells that produce memories and thoughts. It doesn't matter if one cells dies and another replaces it, so long as a connection and interrelationship remains.
That is one form of thought though not proven using any set of scientific rules.
This is another (Also not proven)
To think about memory this way makes more sense than many since in artificial reproduction it not only works it is viable and used. It would ALSO be viable in the human brain though the testing abilities for it are at the moment not as advanced as would be required.
If there was a huge base file on your computer with a bunch of switches that are either on or off and that file contained a decoder that you were able to reference to see what a specific sequence of on/off switches means then you could store any amount of information you wanted just by creating that ONE data file that contained every possible data combo's result. like the old punch card computers but a heck of allot more advanced.
All you would need is just enough space to contain the master list and the rest of the data you would ever need to know could be discovered just by turning switches on or off.
So if the Cells of the human body THE WHOLE body are dyeing and born each second if each cell was listed in the master file as being a switch with the master file being the brain the entire cell structure of the body would be the memory storage. Your DNA Helix being the Key code to the master file to be able to decode which cells activated would equal what result.
So when looking at it that way. There is no storage container to be lost just sequences that are either on or off. If you turn on all switches at the same time then you would have a mess on your hands.
Chemical changes in the brain will effect your memory abilities by the way. your brain and your body is a machine. Think of it like a car. The fuel you put into it will effect its performance.
Example….
My old Mercedes called for Premium fuel only and I put regular unleaded in it one time. It didn't run so well after. It was spitting and staling out at stop lights and such. Because the computer that controlled how the engine fired was setup for gas with 91 octane and I stuck 87 in it. I simply put octane booster in it and it corrected the problem. Then the next time I fueled up I put the correct fuel type.
Are you eating a bunch of Junk Food? Certain foods have been proven to block receptors in your brain due to the chemicals they use in them. This basically changes the ability for the master file to receive the signals from certain cells and as a result results in weird dreams and loss of energy etc. Basically you are fueling your body with the wrong octane fuel. You can take one of those octane boost drinks OR you can just put the premium fuel in your body each time you are at the pump AKA dinner table...LOL
These are simply parts of what I have learned that could be considered opinions due to them not being published yet.
So treat this as an opinion or make some sense of it for your own form of understanding | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/1/2008 8:18:04 PM | | I think there is a lot of nonsense floating around about the mind and how it works. Personally I don't buy into idealism which says the brain or other physical processes somehow fundamentally depend on conciousness. I think the evidence from science indicates it is the other way around, that conciousness arises due to processes acting in the brain. Of course some models of conciousness (such as the computational theory of mind) fail to account for some of the features of conciousness, but that doesn't mean ultimately conciousness is something inexplicable in a scientific sense. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/1/2008 10:15:43 PM |
I never implied it is a mystery, in my perspective there is some limitation as a human being. Take computer for example, if you have a 120gb memories hard drive, what happen when it get full? Either you delete or perhaps get a flash drive, external hard drive, store it online and etc.
Where does our in this giving example important memories goes?
You have professors that don't know this? I'm apalled.
Some of the latest theories are that we remember like a hologram so when a hologram loses half of its information the image isn't gone but the resolution is downgraded.
Which you see in pictures or video online all the time. Say you watch something on abc.go LOST for instance and when the line isn't at full speed the pic loses its sharpness.
But I don't buy into the idea that memory is just in the brain tissues, either. There are too many coincidental stories about organ transplant folks getting an organ and know something about the person who died -- This points to the idea that maybe memories are stored everywhere in our bodies. Maybe not even in the body but in ethereal space somehow floating around and just linked to it ???
Good questions, OP! | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 18 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:31:00 PM | But thats what they are coincidental stories ... an organ transplant is a big deal and has a profound psychological effect.
But I do sort of agree with hologram theory, its more of an amalgam of emotions, visual and auditory memory and just feelings. Our bodies receieve so much input, constantly that the memories are coloured by it, as well as our at the moment thoughts. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 3:29:09 AM |
But I don't buy into the idea that memory is just in the brain tissues, either. There are too many coincidental stories about organ transplant folks getting an organ and know something about the person who died -- This points to the idea that maybe memories are stored everywhere in our bodies.
I don't think it is as coincidental as some would think but more that the person who experiences these doesn't understand what it is receiving for signals since they come from a different master file. They are sending signals to the master file they have been programmed to send to which are similar among species but not exact.
I know I relate allot of things to computers when talking about the human body but I do so because the similarities are amazing and I don’t even think it was intentional. So basically we are evolving computers faster than Humans evolve and soon they will match up and be similar.
This will go way over the head of the non computer people but oh well.
The cells are like a thin client and the data they use is stored in the server network they send packets into the node to request data instructions. The server finds the best route from the data point location to the cell and sends the packet signal back.
In the signal is the instructions to remain on or deactivate creating an off state. Now, looking at the human body as a huge network of mini computers AKA Cells and the brain as basically acting like the main packet or data router with your DNA Helix as the encryption decoder to prevent hackers may be a bit out on the edge but try hacking a cell sometime or more to the point a whole node of cells and monitor the results and the electrical impulses can in fact be reproduced.
That result using the scientific measures means there could very well be validity in that theory they just don’t have good enough testing equipment yet. Not to mention the fact that it is live, up, and operational as a complete functioning system using artificial means. (and in several simulators I believe)
It IMO is very possible as the reasons WHY certain things like the transferred memories and such happen. Not because the Cells contain the memories of the person. But they send their signals just like they would in the other body. So in the conscious mind the memories seem similar to what the other person experienced due to the fact a LARGE amount of Cells from a specific Node are sending the encrypted packets intended for the other persons master file to translate.
We as humans share most of the same DNA with only a smaller amount being different so it wouldn’t create too much of a problem for a transplant receiver. I bet they have weird dreams that don’t make much sense to them for quite awhile after an implant though.... At least until the Cells get reprogrammed for the new master file to utilize effectively without errors. | |
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Crobar
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Joined: 2/27/2008
Msg: 20 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 9:21:28 AM |
These memories and experience is store in our memory bank. The memory isn’t our brain as the cells renew often.
I'm sorry but this is wrong. I'm not sure where you've gotten your information about how memory works and cellular processes but this statement, amongst others in the preceding post are simply not correct.
The current model of LTP is resulting from the strengthening of synapses. You also have the proliferation of dendritic spines which have AMPA receptors which are moved toward the tips to promote the strengthening of those connections. But LTP isn't the main point of those two sentences I wanted to address.
The adult human brain does not "replace" neurons every few "months" as you stated generally about the entire human body (which is also quite inaccurate I'm afraid). Adult neurogenesis does occur, however, it is very limited and only found in a few specific brain areas (Gage, 2002) and is often linked to areas in which LTP occur (Bruel-Jungerman, Davis, Rampon and Laroche, 2006).
Also the dualistic idea you're claiming lacks substantiation from available brain research. I'm not trying to attack or anything, I just am suggesting that your information is faulty and you might want to re-evaluate the validity of your sources.
References Cited, for your convenience:
Bruel-Jungerman, E., Davis, S., Rampon, C. and Laroche, S. (2006). Long-term potentiations enhances neurogenesis in the adult dentate gyrus. The Journal of Neuroscience, 26(22), 5888-5893.
Gage, F. (2002). Neurogenesis in the adult brain. The Journal of Neuroscience, 22(3), 612-613. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 11:31:38 AM |
amongst others in the preceding post are simply not correct
I am going to assume that was directed in my direction stating mine are not correct.
So assuming just because others you sighted for sources may have different theories on how it works and your use of Wiki's to discover those people that means to you it is truth.
Well just a FYI there are many differing OPINIONS on how it works. However, there is one side that spends all their time writing papers and wiki edits explaining how it works yet have no valid results proving it works.
Then you have others that can actully sit you down and SHOW you it working by allowing you to wear a helmet and use nothing but your thoughts to walk around inside of a virtual world created for testing purposes.
Now myself being a logical person and strong on common sense, I am going to assume that someone able to reproduce physical results to support their theory and model would be a much better example of theory put in practice.
I am not saying that those other doctors are idiots but they have been closed minded for so long they don't want to hear anything that is contrary to their current line of thinking even when it is staring them in the face with a working functioning and reproducable model.
Life is funny sometimes. When you have a few people that have been pat on the back for so many years for developing a theory of the mind that has been used for training others and then their theory starts collapsing with the emergance of a working provable theory they tend to get scared and worried that their life's work will crumble around them.
Though I am not going to site specific cases of this due to the fact they are closed to public. People have actully killed to protect their theories. At least that is what is stated as the reason so they can be found insane instead of jailed for the rest of their lives. (Also the reason the cases are not public knowledge since the laws prevent it) | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 22 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 12:22:40 PM | | Nobody has a helmet that is thought directed. Every VR system in existence relies on a walkway and a trigger unit or joystick for feedback. The very best have sensor gloves that can sense movement and hand position with the right feedback control in place. There is a Japanese project which involves a massively connected helmet to differentiate between letters, I think its was up to recognising a letter 'a' when last I looked. And there is a neural activator unit thats being released next week, I think it just senses when people are around, its not VR. Full environment VR is years away as is direct neural connection. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 12:23:24 PM | Memories are remembered is a similar function to how a computer stores memory.
As most of us know, a computer screen is made up of tiny squares, called Pixels, and these pixels are grouped into horizontal lines called Rastar Lines. To make the colours on the screen, the computer beforehand has created specific combinations of colours from a simple "pallet blueprint" - which means certain codes of colours brought to gether, all variations of the primary colours (Red, Green and Blue). A similar process is used with memories. A small sequence of protiens in the brain is "coded" with a single memory (there being trillions of these in the brain), and the information (different proteins) of the sequence react with different chemicals in the brain hence allowing the brain to "read" the string of proteins producing different sights, sounds, feelings etc. Triggers work in the same way - when you are say in a bad car accident, it is imprinted into a memory by your brain to be interpreted as a learning experience. When you go back to your car, then you feel the same feeling and recall the accident since your brain is warning you of what happened last time. The brain has discarded many parts of the memory, but has retained the important parts often leaving senses of fear and bad sights/smells/etc (phobias and PTSD). | |
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Crobar
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Joined: 2/27/2008
Msg: 24 | |
| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 1:30:46 PM |
I am going to assume that was directed in my direction stating mine are not correct.
So assuming just because others you sighted for sources may have different theories on how it works and your use of Wiki's to discover those people that means to you it is truth.
Well just a FYI there are many differing OPINIONS on how it works. However, there is one side that spends all their time writing papers and wiki edits explaining how it works yet have no valid results proving it works.
You assumed incorrectly. The others I referred to were the statements the OP made. Secondly, I did not use citations made from Wikipedia, the articles I cited I have in my possession and have read. Some of us actually do read scientific journals and don't need Wikipedia. Thirdly, the specific points I addressed are adequately supported in the research literature.
Opinions are subjective personal judgments, they don't involve anything such as hypothesis testing and are neither right nor wrong. Also, new claims contrary to the established paradigm are fine and and even welcomed and encouraged by many. Albeit, there are those who are reluctant to change or aversive to new ideas as they might be seen as an attack on their theories. However, I would not say that is indicative of the scientific community as a whole. It is, although, dependent upon those making claims to substantiate them, show the supporting evidence. | |
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| The Psyche or Mind
Posted: 3/2/2008 8:11:52 PM |
Nobody has a helmet that is thought directed
Nobody has a u2 spy plane. Nobody has a F117. Nobody has a Raptor. Nobody has Cloned a Human. and on and on. 20 year delay in releasing this information doesnt make you at all curious to search the patent database's and grant lib's for info that isn't completely public knowledge?
But as far as what IS public release there is a team in Japan that DOES in fact have a working one that connects to Second Life Grid and the Avatar is able to move and change direction with thought. Not hand activation. Not joystick. Not any feedback system since it is being designed for Quads.
The Only reason that one is Public is because they are showing it off in the Simulator industry to receive more funding to progress it to the level of the private funded projects.
You assumed incorrectly
It happens. Sorry I have had many dealings with people thinking they are the next Einstein just because the average populace can't poke holes in their work that get pissed when you can give them failures in advanced Simulators. | |
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