| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 4:57:22 PM | Few things are as sweet as a well trained, well disciplined Pitbull. I see in the forums some well developed arguments over the controversial ban of Pitbulls in Ontario, however, a stray Pitbull on the sidewalk, we can all agree, is frightening.
What is the Vox Populi on a proposal to allow citizens to take lethal force with STRAY pitbulls (no questions asked)?
What can be said about a "That Dog Might Hurt Somebody- Initiative" ? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 5:09:23 PM | Hell yeah. I want to see a Candain pop a cap in a pitbull.
Screw that. I want to see a Canadian go at it bear hands with one. Anybody know where Tom Green is these days? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 5:24:18 PM | It's not just pitbulls. This can be said of most any dog roaming free and undisciplined.
Any dog can be made aggressive. Pitbulls, Staffordshire terriers, can make great pets and can be wonderful with children. It's all in how they're trained.
I'm tired of broad strokes being painted with this dog and making it almost impossible for many to own due to other people's ignorance. Shall we put down German shepards, Rottys, Huskies, and Doberman's too? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 5:47:56 PM | I don't know about Canada..but there is a slow ban on Pitbulls...
I our neighborhood alone we have had two attacks that resorted to both pitbulls being put down. Dog owners should be held responsible for the dogs actions.. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:07:04 PM | violetskye:
I'm tired of broad strokes being painted with this dog and making it almost impossible for many to own due to other people's ignorance.
I am unclear as to whom you are reffering to as ignorant.
Are the ignorant the shabby owners who have violent pitbulls?
Or are the ignorant those who are afraid of violent pitbulls? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:12:31 PM | Well, let see...
Those painting the broad strokes saying they should all be banned because they are afraid and uninformed about the breed.
And, those who buy them simply to buy them and turn them into killing machines for money and sport.
They DO NOT start out as aggressive animals. They are made that way, as can be any dog.
Did I clear that up for you? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:23:05 PM |
They DO NOT start out as aggressive animals. They are made that way, as can be any dog.
Did I clear that up for you?
No it doesn't clear that up for me, because I don't see your solution to the problem. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:29:02 PM | Seriously?
So just banning them because you can't find a solution is okay, too?
What about educating one's self with regard to the breed and the nature of the dog.
What about educating our children to not go near strange animals and to prosecute those who have them and mistreat them, who use them for sport and abuse them, making them aggressive?
It's not the dog's fault and just passing legislation to ban a breed is ridiculous. There are many out there who have these dogs with great success and have integrated them into their families and love them. You're punishing animals who have yet to do anything as well as punishing those who actually enjoy them and want them as loving pets. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:38:11 PM |
So just banning them because you can't find a solution is okay, too?
I'm not proposing a ban.
The proposal in this thread prevents the "Broad Stroke" of a Ban. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 6:44:26 PM | I know you aren't. And, I apologize for being so snappy.
I've just seen too many threads, too many articles, and heard too many conversations about getting rid of them, when the problem doesn't even begin with them. It belongs with the humans making them the way they are and making them seem a threat to everyone. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 8:47:29 PM | | i have a pit, she showed up at the door and my ex opened it, couldn't fine the owner, and now it's mine. GREAT DOG, a big sad eyed baby, and yet she has a natural instinct to defend the place, my sisters don't come and visit much any more. she's a natural hunter, when i take her out to the woods, off leash, i have to listen and respond, and she's trained me, getting into raccoons, armadillos, possum.. that i know of. Pits are great dogs, they require owners that can work with dogs, and aren't aggressive. To many people have some sickness that make them dream of fighting killer dogs.. Those people, and people who don't have time for the thing they store in the back yard, with their ill kept fence, cause a lot of heart ache. For people like me that love dogs, and people that a scared of dogs.. maybe a pit owners license would help? people can own tigers, and lions, don't know about bears,, a pit owner needs to be a responsible owner.. I do get wired when i hear the nature loving, green house gas freaked out, organic buying public hugging trees and endorcing kill all pits.... i can't follow the logic, save the rapist, murdering, child molesters, and kill them ding dang dogs... | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 9:19:35 PM | rottenapple:
It was very civic minded of you to adopt that dog and get him off the streets. Who knows if he'd be in a pitbull "rescue" place, had you not taken him in.
It's too bad we don't have someone like you living on every block.
I don't think a vicious pitbull can be compared to the deplorable "rapist, murdering child molester" But both are equally as frightening. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/6/2008 11:58:23 PM | One thing I don't get...
People can leave their entire fortunes to a dog, and the dog has the last name of the human at the vets, so is the dog NOT part of the family now?
Mine is. She even goes on vacations with me.
Humans are the real problem with this world. Not the animals.
Humans are far worse... and I would be more afraid of some loon on the street than a dog... but if I were to touch him, I could be sued...
Oh, such a world. People will only wake up when it is too late.
It's like that jackass Rudy Giuliani banning ferrets here in NYC. What next? | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/7/2008 12:31:30 AM |
What is the Vox Populi on a proposal to allow citizens to take lethal force with STRAY pitbulls (no questions asked)?
What can be said about a "That Dog Might Hurt Somebody- Initiative" ?
Totally against it.
As Violet was referencing, the dog isn't the problem - humans are.
If ANY animal is a direct threat to a human, then the right to self-defense is certainly applicable - as against a human threat.
I think even an animal's life is worthy of some consideration, in a civilized society. Killing without justification, without question, is simply immoral to me. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/7/2008 2:01:40 AM | Montreal Guy
the right to self-defense is certainly applicable... ...Killing without justification, without question, is simply immoral to me.
Well put. I assume that there would be exceptions to the rule of self defense, for example, killing to keep a child from getting bit in the face. If you agree then we can say that acting to protect the community is certainly applicable.
I feel that protecting the community would be the justification to taking this type of action but I doubt that this sequence of logic would allow you to feel that this type of killing would be moral. I think this is because you may be very well capable of negotiating this particular situation by say: subduing the dog and getting it back to where it belongs. If children, little old ladies, and anyone who can't defend themselves could handle the situation the way you're capable, then they wouldn't need to rely on a community for this type of protection. Sadly that's not the case. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 2:05:13 PM | I'm weighing in on this...
I had (key word here is HAD) a neighbour two yards over who had three pit bull crosses. I have a wheaten terrier (think Benji and you got it) plus a cross Irish Wolf Hound. Two years ago, in the winter, I let my two dogs out while I shoveled the back walk. My Wolf Hound was only a year at the time...still immature. The three pitbulls two yards over were out in their yard as well, with their owner. I looked up from shovelling to see two of the three jump not only their fence, but also the fence between my immediate neighbour and me. Both of them went straight for my terrier and one dragged her down by the throat and was shaking her. The other was trying to get in for a hold as well. I took my shovel and was just banging those dogs. The owner came running over and managed to get one off....he was down on the ground struggling with it to keep it back and it was turning on him and attacking. He was trying to keep it's mouth shut. He was screaming at me to hit and kick his other dog to try and deter it. My little terrier was screaming in pain and squirming. She managed to get free and went tearing around the yard with that pitbull chasing her. I ran to the door, opened it and she went tearing in there along with my wolf hound.
She was bleed profusely from puncture wounds and off we went to the vet...Both of us were totally traumatized. She's okay now...The owner agreed to tie them up any time they were outside after that. He moved shortly thereafter.
I tell you this though:
After seeing what they can do (and what they're bred for) I totally understand banning them. They're bred for fighting and in the wrong hands (as is usually the case) they're lethal. The attack was totally unprovoked and they still responded aggressively. They didn't respond to the owner at all and even turned on him when he was trying to physically control them.
There is no way in hell that I would ever be able to defend myself against a pit bull. I know that. They're fast, heavy, powerful and once they feel the blood lust, don't respond. I understand totally the urge to kill the dogs if they are running around free. Sorry. But I do. I feel it myself. I could have shot the little bastards and felt no remorse....and I'm a pacifist. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 2:24:54 PM | After seeing what they can do (and what they're bred for) I totally understand banning them.
I don't support a ban. Any dog can turn into a monster, in the wrong hands. Do we ban Rottweillers next ?
My ex-brother in law had two Rottweillers, they were massive and powerful dogs. Either of them could have inflicted serious damage on me anytime they wanted to, or anyone else they chose to attack.
I used to wrestle with both of them, and to any outside onlooker it would have looked like some some of death match. Lots of growling and barking (from both of us ), and intense "combat".
At no time was there any danger on either side. I'd even sometimes have my wrist "bitten" and "grabbed" by one.....with absolutely no pressure involved.
Such "fights" typically ended with said Rottweiller's pinned to the ground, being "kissed" on their "cheek" ......and whimpering.....while their stubby little tails wagged at full speed.
Both were perfectly trained to the highest level possible, including silent hand commands. Their owner refused to teach them anything involving aggression, like "attack dog" training.
I think if someone wants to own certain breeds, like a Pit Bull or Rottweiler, then they should have to take mandatory courses, and be held to a higher standard with things like leash laws and making sure they are properly secured if left outside.
I see it a bit like I do gun ownership. Such training courses would reduce the possibility of the wrong people improperly caring for the responsibility they now have towards society.Those course would also allow for any owner to understand that they were being held to a higher legal standard than a poodle owner was - which is logical, given their greater lethality. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 2:55:38 PM | MG...
You have observed these dogs through a safe lens.
I have not and base my response on first hand observation. Perhaps if you witness a pit bull in action, your response would change.
Training courses are not 100% successful as we know by the amount of people who use guns irresponsibly.
Higher standards would be beneficial but again are dependent on the ability/motivation of the owner to adhere to them. Not a chance I want to take. Already did, actually, and my dog almost died because of it. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:08:17 PM | Interesting timing for this thread. My dog just got attacked by one a few hours ago. I'm waiting on a couple of neighbours to call me back on this one because I'm pretty sure it's the same one that's been called in twice before around here for attacking other dogs. Nice looking dog though. but the owners a dweeb.
Somme young punk that always just drives over to the ball diamonds and lets the dog out while he sits in the van. I got the license plate. not sure what I'm going to do if anything.
We were coming back from the bush almost out of the bush. We swing around behind the arena and coming out that corner is where the Zamboni's piled up all the snow from cleaning the ice all winter. As soon as we came from behind the huge snowbank we spotted him and he just came tearing for my dog. He got a good grip around her back hind but thank god everything's ice around here as he kept slipping and mine got away for a sec. By now buddy got off his fat aSs out of the van and came ripping up and tried to grab his dog.
They dog avoided him and came back at mine for another shot but I kinda grabbed hold of him long enough for the owner to grab him. He muttered about it really being a nice dog but that it likes to play a little rough.
So mine was pretty shaken up and we came home. i checked her and everything seemed ok. Then I looked in on her about fifteen minutes later and she had this real worried look on her face. So i went back over her hind and under the hair she had a good one inch gouge ripped into her about a half inch deep.
I phoned my chum for a bit of advice, who had to take two of his neighbours dogs to the vet recently and he reminded me that it's like 700 bucks for a weekend emergency call at the vets. So i laid her down and got a bucket of clean water and cleaned the wound. Then i went thru maybe a couple of dozen q-tips with rubbing alcohol cleaning the wound some more. Then I plugged up the whole rent with triple anibiotic, put a big gauze on her and taped it down. Hopefully she's gonna be ok.
So. We'll see how it all shakes out. Me i don't like pitbulls, It's one dog i just do not like. But this one is the result of a goof owning one. This one's on the ding a ling owner. A couple of the neighbours I'm sure have called this kid in before. If i call, it could mean the end of days for the dog. So, I'm still sitting here wondering what the right thing to do is. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:14:49 PM | Sly...
I went through the same indecision. Call or not.
I decided not to but went over to the owner and talked with him about controlling the dogs more efficently. Second chance and all. He took the drift and tied them up.
Sounds like you're kid has worn out second and third chances already. Time to bring the message home to him, Sly. He's not following through on being responsible at all.
PS...Hope your dog is okay and on the mend. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:30:54 PM | hmm well in my experience , people who get violent natured animals or animals known for thier viciosness are tending to compensate for a lack of their own self controlor feelings of inadequacy
they use the animals to express that they are tuff and dont cross them
in other words i would call them one time and tell them to tie up their animal after that, the next time i saw the animal roaming the streets or untied i would either immediately call the police or spca or shoot the animal
as apet owner it is your responsibility to see that not only the neighbor children and people are safe but also that your animal remains in a safe environment , letting them run wild or roam the streets may seem to some that it helps the animal live up to its animalistic nature of search and forrage , but in populated areas there are so many other dangers out there , vehicles. rabied skunks porcupines etc ,
how would the owner feel after th animal comes home and has rabies, which dont show up for awhile n bites or infects the people in their house or neighbors?
paying fines and bs like that helps noone, especially the animals
shoot the animal and ban the owner from owning another animal
bottom line is if you arnet prepared to tow the line and b a responsible pet owner then you punish not only your neighbors but also the pet
dogs are great pals and ive known a few beautiful pittys and dobermans and other apparently vicious animals . the nature needs to be controlled and the animal must be taught that aggressive behaviour is not acceptable
few people seem to accept or admit that the dangers of free roaming animals is not just in their temperment but also in bacteria and disease control
a rabid rat that a cat chases could easily pass on the disease
in the more humane society of about 100 yrs ago people would kill all animals that they couldnt use or feed
now in todays society of pansies we drive em out into the country or we just toss em outside and let them fend for themselves
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:32:35 PM | If i call, it could mean the end of days for the dog. So, I'm still sitting here wondering what the right thing to do is.
I love animals too, but I strongly suggest you make that call. If some kid gets mauled by that pit bull, you'll have to live with not calling for the rest of your life.
Any attack like the one's mentioned here is not acceptable, as a responsible dog owner. If you cannot train and control your dog, and you can't keep him on a leash when outside, then society cannot be placed at risk.
It's too bad that the dog has to pay for that irresponsibility, but if the situation isn't corrected there will be other innocents placed at risk - dogs and humans alike.
That's not acceptable, if you are a responsible dog owner. It just makes all dog owners look bad, because of a few idiots.
I hope your dog's OK , Sly. If that had of been my dog, the call would have already been made as soon as I reached a phone.  | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 3:43:23 PM |
If some kid gets mauled by that pit bull, you'll have to live with not calling for the rest of your life.
I know. That's what keeps gnawing away at me.
Thing was though, there was 4 little gaffers playing up on the snowbank when we first went by them, and a couple of hours later coming back out of the bush, they were still there. Funny how kids pick up on it right away. They all came and snuggled up with my dog.lol. They said....awww, she's all scared." I really didn't think the pit landed any blows but i guess he did. Fast though because he didn't get much of a grab the first time. Lucky he didn't get a good grip or my little buddy would be history today..
If that had of been my dog, the call would have already been made as soon as I reached a phone.
I always have my phone with me, but i didn't think she got bit.. I just thought at first that they just startled each other and that's the way the pit reacted. My girl wouldn't hurt a flea so she had no idea what was happening. | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 8:43:50 PM | Sad to hear about your dog Sly. Hope she's alright.
This is a touchy subject and there's obviously a handful of pitbul owners or friends thereof sticking up for the breed saying it's all just the owner. Reality is though, that that's far from the truth. The breed was really made for one thing and one thing only. Aggression. They can be a very friendly dog around people, and sometimes a few other animals. Even well behaved around other dogs IF they had a knowledgable and dedicated owner. Sadly that's seldom the case though, and the animals are potentially very dangerous. Just look for cases of dog attacks and there'll be more cases of this breed attacking PEOPLE'S OWN CHILDREN than all other breeds combined, and they haven't even been arount that long. Ticking time-bombs!
My next door neighbor has a really nice one. (I thought) It even came to visit a couple times shortly after he got him, and it seemed like an adorable dog really. Loves milk-bones too.
I live out in the country and until the last few years, there hasn't been alot of emphasis on making peoples dogs stay at home in these parts. Neighborhood wanderers never really bothered me too much out in the boonies until a couple years ago. Actually visiting dogs were fairly common and I've always kept a good supply of treats around. I don't like to let Max our border collie wander, so if he gets caught out straying around or isn't home when called, his penalty is being tied on the dog-run for a few days and repeatedly scolded/reminded.
I used to think that all this dangerous breed stuff was a bunch of hooey too and the last thing I expected was for that friendly dog to come over and attack our dog in his own yard. Max was being punished, and was tied up and pretty defenceless at the time. Luckily he was agile and fast enough to avoid being grabbed by the throat as was obviously the pit-bulls intent. I grabbed a shovel and knocked it half senseless, and chased it home to my neighbor's. Didn't enjoy that ugliness at all. I love dogs.
I've always loved dogs and was saddened when I had to tell my neighbor (who already got along with me fairly well for some years) that his pit-bull was never allowed over at my place again. The dog stays tied up now.
As far as comparing it with stable, ancient, non-inbred breeds like german sheppards and rotweillers is concerned, all dogs can be MADE viscious but there are few breeds, if any, that such aggression comes from naturally .
Myself, I woulda made said call, particularly if there was ALREADY a history.
Again, hope your dog's alright. Sounds like it's in good hands | |
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| Attention Civic Thinkers: *PITBULLS*
Posted: 3/8/2008 10:18:57 PM | ^^^ It still hasn't been verified if it's the same dog yet. Thanks there panagonia and the rest of ya's there for the concern. By the time I went to make the call, the office was closed. Sorry for kinda sorta hijacking the thread a bit. Bit early for hijacking. But I have read a good number of threads on this subject and I've always sort of just read and never come to a real definite conclusion on the subject. Even after today I'm doubtful they should all be banned. Maybe some of the owners should be banned from having dogs, but they'd do a workaround on it if they really wanted to.
Anways, I met a lot of dogs in my day travellin' around and I've seen some mighty vicious dogs too. All different kinds. So whether or not this particular breed should be banned, I don't know. I don't think so. But they sure do have a certain ferocity to them.
You have to be careful with a lot of dogs though. My brother in law used to always have two or three rotties around his place and i wouldn't want to have to mess with one of them if they were mad. Man they'd rip you to shreds if they thought you were a burglar. I remember one time when company was there, one of the Rottie's was laying down at a guests feet. The guest dropped her cigarette while reaching for something. It landed on the dog's back and did that dog get up in a hurry. I thought the lady was a goner the way that dog snapped at her. That could have been a completely misunderstood thing despite the dogs being really well trained. I think if the brother in law hadn't been right there, there would have been blood.
I was bit twice in my twenty years of travellin' around, and both times it was by little munschkin type dogs, so I'm still sitting on the fence on banning pitbulls even though personally i don't like them , like i said earlier. But there's a lot of things about life i don't like. Doesn't mean i can just get rid of them either. | |
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