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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 5:47:22 PM | Good ole Georgie boy thinks it is in our best interest to allow torture...
Bush to Veto Bill Banning Waterboarding
WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House says President Bush will veto legislation on Saturday that would have barred the CIA from using waterboarding - a technique that simulates drowning - and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.
Bush has said the bill would harm the government's ability to prevent future attacks. Supporters of the legislation argue that it preserves the United States' right to collect critical intelligence while boosting the country's moral standing abroad.
"The bill would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror, the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives," deputy White House press secretary Tony Fratto said Friday.
The bill would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual.
The legislation would bar the CIA from using waterboarding, sensory deprivation or other coercive methods to break a prisoner who refuses to answer questions. Those practices were banned by the military in 2006, but the president wants the harsh interrogation methods to be a part of the CIA's toolbox.
Backers of the legislation, which cleared the House in December and won Senate approval last month, say the interrogation methods used by the military are sufficient.
"President Bush's veto will be one of the most shameful acts of his presidency," Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said in a statement Friday. "Unless Congress overrides the veto, it will go down in history as a flagrant insult to the rule of law and a serious stain on the good name of America in the eyes of the world."
He noted that the Army field manual contends that harsh interrogation is a "poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the (interrogator) wants to hear." | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 6:03:08 PM | maybe al-qaida will kidnap Bush and waterboard HIM someday, what sweet revenge.He just wants to thouroughly f*&^% up America's name all over the world by doing this.only 200 something more days til he's out! | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:11:53 PM | I gotta say, he's consistent. Consistently bad. I think his place as the worst president ever is a done deal and he didn't even put up much of a fight.
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| The President stands against Terrorists
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:19:20 PM |
waterboarding, sensory deprivation or other coercive methods to break a prisoner
Although unpleasant these are pseudo torture methods
breaking bones, burning, starvation, restricting medical treatment, inflicting great pain
these are torture lite methods, not very likely to produce results worth anything
dismemberment, rendering subject unconscious, death
these are torture and eventually kills subject.....dead men tell no tales.
no information value...but Al qaeda likes the Propoganda value of these methods
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:22:40 PM | That's funny because it was okay for Sadaam Hussein to torture his citizens. No one wanted to do anything about that. We should have just let him be.
But geez, we allow our military leaders to interrogate a few known terrorists that have aligned themselves with homicidal jihadists, and pour some water on their face to perhaps thrwart a potential nuclear bomb going off in our country, and now it's inhuman.
You people crack me up with your logic.  | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:25:42 PM | Ok, so someone kidnaps your child (God forbid) and you track down one of the kidnappers. You dont find your child and the person in front of you is your only lead... would you torture them? Or, perhaps, in the interest of Mom, apple pie, goodness and fair play would you say excuse me, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to kick your door in!?!?
Complaining about waterboarding reminds me of an editorial cartoon from the 60's... it's a couple of hippies standing in a trashed apartment and one says to the other "Call the pigs, we've been robbed."
Quite frankly, as a veteran, I would gladly employ water boarding if I thought for a minute that the information extracted would save your liberal butts and allow you to continue your freedom of speach unfettered.
(And yes, I have personally experienced water boarding and a number of other, nastier, techniques... all in the interest of education of course. LOL)
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:36:23 PM | | AMEN guyguy4. God help us if a democrat gets elected to the Whitehouse.If that happens all u liberals be prepared to work alot of overtime cause you going to pay out the butt in taxes.Plus god help us if we suffer another attack.As far as worst president ever,well just ask MONICA!Its a shame that the drive by media brainwashes everybody.esp against President Bush.At least if Hillary gets elected then I can laugh listening to Rush ripping her on a daily basis.And then watch how fast the country goes down | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:46:49 PM | Yeah, yeah, yeah, liberals will get us all killed. We've heard it a zillion times when facts get in the way of a good platitude.
The fact is, whatever moral high ground we used to crow about is gone thanks to you guys. Yeah, you guys who think it's a tough guys game and everyone else is a pansy.
Except it doesn't work like that in the real world, where countries have to deal with each other like grown ups instead of barstool quarterbacks. Where diplomacy backed by our word needs to carry some weight. Except now our word isn't worth diddly squat thanks to the 'tough guys' you guys elected.
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 8:45:46 PM |
Its a shame that the drive by media brainwashes everybody.esp against President Bush.
I guess that's what happens when reality gets reported. 
You know Dylan once sang that "sometimes even the President of the United States must have to stand naked", but he never imagined that a great number of people would still admire his fine wardrobe as he walked down the street.
You didn't need to waterboard Nazis and the Japanese, and WW2 was still won. A bunch of guys in a cave somewhere make a video, and suddenly the white hats suddenly start to go grey, and then fade to black.
Guess what. If Saddam had of waterboarded his enemies, Bush would have pointed out how he was torturing people , and used that against him.
Now, that rationale is off the boards forever - thanks to Bush himself. Anyone accused of such treatment of prisoners, including American ones, has all the ammunition they need to claim it's totally acceptable - because the US itself did/does it. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:04:02 PM | Whats with all the Neville Chamberlains around here.
It's amazing, that the Liberals here completely condone the brutal torture techniques of Islamists, yet scream the loudest when americans pour some water on people that want to kill us.
When they torture, limbs, eyes, fingers, toes, and lives are lost.
If we need information. Afterwards, the target needs a towel to dry off.
You idiots that equate the brutal maiming torture of Islamists do to non-muslims, to our pouring water on the heads of those same Islamists that want to kill us, is ludicris at best.
I would ask what is wrong with you people, but the answer would be to long for this forum.
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:09:07 PM |
It's amazing, that the Liberals here completely condone the brutal torture techniques of Islamists, yet scream the loudest when americans pour some water on people that want to kill us.
Because I expect far more from a country that taught me (through most of my life) that they were above such actions, and that these things were morally wrong to do.
I would ask what is wrong with you people, but the answer would be to long for this forum.
One sentence ? | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:09:53 PM | "God help us if a democrat gets elected to the Whitehouse.....At least if Hillary gets elected then I can laugh listening to Rush ripping her on a daily basis.And then watch how fast the country goes down"
Unlike how it is now, with the country in such DANDY shape. 
Really, man. Get a grip! The whole Chicken Little "The sky will fall if a Dem gets elected" schtick is getting really old.
Grow a pair and face facts. Your boy blew it. BIG time. He squandered the country's reputation all for the sake of playing cowboys-and-black-hats. His approval of the use of torture has ensured the the U.S. can no longer hold any sort of moral high ground in any..repeat:ANY international disagreement. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/7/2008 9:17:24 PM |
But geez, we allow our military leaders to interrogate a few known terrorists that have aligned themselves with homicidal jihadists, and pour some water on their face to perhaps thrwart a potential nuclear bomb going off in our country, and now it's inhuman.
You people crack me up with your logic
See that is the problem, you are using logic and they are not.
These liberals want to close down Gitmo, yet say nothing about Castro's prisons (same island). Which would you want to stay in? Starve to death after getting your body bashed in thanks to Castro's secret police or gain weight courtesy of the USA....tough choice
These are the same people who love dictators, who kill their own people, but think Bush is the worlds worst, even worse than Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot. If the liberals are lucky they will grow up someday. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 12:04:00 AM |
Ok, so someone kidnaps your child (God forbid) and you track down one of the kidnappers.
You're right....there should be a "special room" in every federal, state, and county police station....
Quite frankly, as a veteran, I would gladly employ water boarding if I thought for a minute that the information extracted would save your liberal butts and allow you to continue your freedom of speach unfettered.
Well, your "higher-ups" have already said it doesn't work....the subjects sure end up talking....but does what they say hold any meaningful information?
(And yes, I have personally experienced water boarding and a number of other, nastier, techniques... all in the interest of education of course. LOL)
Ohhhhhh.....you already knew what the outcome would be....my oh my....now you are really educmicated.....
...in the interest of Mom, apple pie...
Two great stalwarts of American life....and you're ready to toss 'em out.....
For what?
False security? | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 4:23:53 AM | Some thoughts come to mind.
There are no atheists in foxholes, or on a battlefield.
There is no moral high ground when on a battlefield either.
You got information, and I need it?
I'm going to get it. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 4:55:10 AM | The problem with torture, and this is easy to understand, is that people will confess to anything to make it stop.
The ones here who are incapable of grasping this well studied fact, I trust them little in the hopes of acting civilized. How easy it is then, for decent church going conservative types, to sound as evil and despicable as our so called enemies. Go to Gitmo or Abu Garaib, you'll be happy as a kid in a candy store, being able to torture as much as you like.
In closing, torture doesn't work, and I can't respect those who trumpet it as a necessary evil.
Remember, the lesser of two evils, is still evil. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 5:35:02 AM | there should be a room set aside in a police station
And what would you do in that room? Beat someone until they talked? Break an arm or a leg? Exactly how would you extract information to get a loved one back from a kidnapper? Here's my bet... you would want a professional to use what ever means necessary extract the information necessary to save your loved one.
The problem with torture, and this is easy to understand, is that people will confess to anything to make it stop.
And without coercion, people will confess to nothing.
It is important to understand how coercion works. It is the promise that what ever is being done will stop if the interrogated gives useful information and the promise that it will get worse if they don't give information or if what they give is false.
Different people crack in different ways. For some waterboarding would be meaningless but just showing them a photo of their brother would make them sing like a canary. (now they will want to outlaw photograhpy)
The interogaters within the US military don't just throw every detainee on a waterboard. They have protocols and proceedures they follow. Their goal is the abstraction of the most information while doing the least harm. They have a process in place for determining exactly what methods will be most effective. By the time they get to waterboarding almost everything else has been tried and and there are still those who don't crack and there are still much nastier extraction methods that await the detainees.
I'm neither a conservative or a liberal, I'm pretty much middle of the road. What I do know is that reality is a dirty, messy business. War is reality. Extraction of information from prisoners is reality.
Because I expect far more from a country that taught me (through most of my life) that they were above such actions, and that these things were morally wrong to do.
Yes, our system is so fair that men get half their property and equal custody of their kids while going through divorce... People are never wrongly convicted and sent to prison for crimes they didn't commit. People permanetly disabled at work always get enough money to live on. Corporations never fire a man two years before his retirement. AND all those wounded soldiers always get the best medical care.
If you want to fight a battle and get angry over something, get angry over something that matters... fight for veterans rights.
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 5:56:43 AM |
People are never wrongly convicted and sent to prison for crimes they didn't commit.
So then to stay on the subject of the president permitting torture, which is a tried and true war crime, you know as well as anybody else that innocent people are wrongly incarcerated.
So imagine you, being an innocent person, having been detained, wrongly, and subjected to torture. You're broken down and confess. Then tried on your false confession and imprisoned or worse.
Reminds me of a certain evil empire we were once engaged in a cold war with. Now, people here are saying that torture is necessary, and justifying it because they're afraid. Isn't it braver to take the higher less traveled road?
Seems that some here want to become all that our enemies are, to out awful them, to be more ruthless and barbaric, more heavy handed and terrible. Will we have truly won then? | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 6:34:08 AM | Mr. Frog (? LOL!)
First - thank you for your service to your country! Your sacrifices over the years are appreciated.
Secondly, I can not agree more with your statements. I would imagine that most people put in the position of needing information from a kidnapper of their child would find waterboarding acceptable along with many other forms of persuasion. And if these types of persuasion are what is needed in order to prevent American citizens from being shot, tortured, blown up, blown out of buildings and vehicles, blown to the angels in airplanes then I personally say - do it!
I worked for the military as a civilian for over 8 years. I have 2 nephews that have been to Iraq. One of those boys came home with 2 purple hearts and the bronze star for bravery. The HumVee was hit with an IED and while they got most of their men out of it, one was trapped and my nephew had to watch his best friend burn to death. They couldn't free him and they were taking enemy fire.
Personally, if it meant that someone stuck a fire hose up someone else's nose in order to get the information that would have changed it so that all of those young men came home and that none of those young men had to forever carry with them that memory - I would say DO IT!
I thank God every day that our President has stayed strong in the face of so much ignorance on what it is like to be a soldier and to carry the burden of these types of memories and events.
Would it have been Candy Land wonderful that we never needed to go to Iraq? Yes, it would have. However, we had to. The one thing that most of these people do not realize is that they can choose to fight the problem over there or they can fight it here on American Soil. Personally, I say fight it THERE! Don't let it get here! Use whatever means are necessary to ensure that 9/11 NEVER happens again HERE!
As for me and mine - we fight for all those who don't have the chance to have a voice - like the Iraqi women who haven't received even a basic elementary education or an Afgahnistan child who might actually like to play a game of soccer.
In closing, I would like to say again - Thank you for your service and your steadfast belief in the USA. | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 21 | |
| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 6:40:44 AM | Torture has it's place. We do not have to like it, but that is the truth. Radical Muslims(by all means,not all Muslims) mean to destroy this country. Face the facts, it is hard to hold the moral high ground when the terrorist is killing us using even nastier torture techniques than we are. Waterboarding...is a minor technique compared to beheading.
Do you actually believe that a new President is going to stop this? We are in a new kind of fight people. Unfortunately this war will continue. Changing the occupant of 1600 will change nothing. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 7:27:16 AM | Good. You guys and your heroes in the White House can accept the blame whenever the enemy points their finger back at us to justify whatever they do to POWs. Now you have guaranteed that none of our troops will be treated worth a sh*t. Good on ya. I hope all that macho bullsh*t feels just as good then, when those reports come back, as it feels now.
You're willing to trade away all that, and the moral high ground (which used to mean something), to sooth your temper and get info that isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 7:32:18 AM |
Torture has it's place
Sure, in the Middle East, North Korea, and the Spanish Inquisition.
Not in the America I knew.
And if anyone is going to destroy this country it's people willing to bend the rule of law, so-called patriots who turn a blind eye to the injustices this country is committing and don't hold this administration to account for it's war crimes.
Waterboarding...is a minor technique compared to beheading
The two cannot be compared, one is torture, and the other is execution. Just as a wedgie isn't as bad as the electric chair. How can one argue against such fractured logic.
We are in a new kind of fight people.
No. Insurgencies have flared up since the dawn of warfare. It may be new to some, but only because they have avoided learning history.
To not know what happened before you came into the world is to remain forever a child. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 9:02:46 AM | "Sure, in the Middle East, North Korea, and the Spanish Inquisition.
Not in the America I knew."
Sadly, that is a large part, or rather, a result of the problem; We now refer to "the America we KNEW."
Thanks to the Bush regime, whose leader so clearly has the ear of God, the 'America we knew' no longer exists. It has been replaced by a tainted, soulless, dark shadow of what it used to be.
The countries involved in this farcical "War of Terror" are in a race to the bottom as far as setting an example for human rights.
Of course "the other guys" are guilty of the same and even worse atrocities, but, as the old saying goes, "Evil begets evil." Doing it just because 'they' do it, doesn't make it right, or even acceptable.
What we have is the equivalent of two people sitting on a bathtub full of gasoline, seeing who can light the most matches. | |
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| The Pres OK's Torture
Posted: 3/8/2008 9:09:37 AM | | I admire everyones passion about this subject. Get off the forums, and make your effort count for something tangible. Amnesty International has a great way to make your voice heard, and it actually does some good. They make it really easy to message your representitives via internet. Join & participate. Then you can say forever,"I helped shut down Guantanamo!" | |
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