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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/9/2008 9:38:17 PM | If only one can survive evolution - in light of the impact the human race is having on this planet, who should survive and why?
It is a philosophical consideration, questioning our priorities as a race.
Assume for a moment there is no 'us-and-them' there is only us - lets take for a moment responsibility for our human race, warts and all.
It appears to be very trendy - according to posts - to be 'Pro-Planet' and 'Anti-People'.
While that makes perfect sense in a 'chicken or egg' logic, i.e. we couldnt survive without our planet, i am starting to wonder if this is like a mini religion born out of a sincere feeling of guilt and frustration of powerlessness?
Evolved from simpler life forms into who we are, we accepted it as a process of Natural Selection and it was all good because we are just another animal.
And animals are good.
Now we are self aware - and we suddenly know better than evolution:
We convert aboriginals into christians and sell them beer,
we turn indians into catholics,
prawns into a delicassy and****oaches into vermin even though they are related,
overly successful plants and animals we call weeds and pests and exterminate them,
we decide which species shouldnt go extinct because they are cute,
we roll beached whales back in the ocean (happened to me last weekend) because we know better then them stupid whales,
we would love to genocide all viruses and germs (not germans...) because it would be for the best of the planet,
we cant have a relationship with a lettuce so we eat it regardless of its DNA,
we can have a relationship with a dolphin, so we protect them.
We invent labels for things, we judge and we execute.
We have only been self aware for a short period of time but we know what best for us, all the species and the planet as well.
Ice age is good - global warming is bad.
Water vapour is good - CO2 is bad.
Nuclear energy from the sun is good - our nuclear energy is bad.
All animals are good - the human animal is bad.
We dont believe in a god or electricity until we get whacked.
We have an awful lot of opinions and we love to judge instead of just observing for a while.
Watching us from a distant star they could think we love drama.
Is there anybody that believes in the human spirit, its capacity to adapt, overcome and outgrow this planet? | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:16:12 PM | Oh!
As for liking people and such, i like a person, that thinks for themselves, can lead when a leader is lacking and needed, yet will back down without a fight when a more capable leader steps forward.
Get people in a crowd (And though many love sheep/lemmings) they follow mob mentality, go with the flow (Wich only dead fish do) and dont be different incase your own mob turns on you and casts you out... that crap i dont like.
Humans are amazing creatures with sooooo much potential, yet, we sit around with our fingers up our bums and focus on what entertains us or makes getting things from the fridge easier so we can gorge our heads while not having to get up.
I think that life being to easy, to many options is what has made us so squishy with a butter center, give someone a hard life where they have to fight tooth and nail for everything, and they apreciate the small things in life so much and take minor hicups in life in thier stride and try to help if they can.
Delay the movie/traffic/food service for 15minutes for the fata$$ who hasnt had to work for anything and the greasy poop hits the fan, they start complaining about everything and why they think that its the people who are actualy working to fix the problems fault and why they could do a better job yet when handed the opertunity to do something, they fall to bits, unless theres a buttery reward at the end, and then they give a half a$$ed attempt.
Im hoping for a Zombie plague... that'd be interesting...
(Yeh, i watched Dawn and Land of the dead recently >.> ) | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/10/2008 12:44:06 AM | Great topic OP
Have you noticed how Mother Nature ultimately reigns ?
At the moment we are at the mercy of the worst droughts ever in traditional cold wet and rainy Victoria, floods all over Qld and Northern NSW, endless 40 degree days in Adelaide and Perth, highest records of snowfalls last winter in Northern America and major flooding in Europe as well...could go on....will we adapt ? probably, its in our nature to survive all elements however we must learn to respect that in the end what Mother Nature says, will go...now surviving each other - war etc..thats another matter. | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:55:41 AM | | Kobalt1963, I don't see things quite as black and white as you seem to be presenting them here. To state categorically that something is either good or bad assumes that all those things you have classified as being bad have nothing positive to offer this world, so I have to disagree with your approach. I see things from a different perspective: some things can bring about undesirable outcomes under one set of conditions, but have desirable outcomes under another set of conditions. Here's an example: manure can have desirable outcomes if it's used as fertiliser. Manure can also have undesirable outcomes if it can't be utilised because it has to be disposed of because of it's smell. | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/10/2008 2:09:05 AM | Well that's something to ponder isn't it?
We human anthropoids are much like other animals in a sense that we are very greedy. We can and will devour and consume, take without giving and run off somewhere to have it all to ourselves. I think if any other species had the means or the opportunity to take over the earth and transform it into a haven for it's own kind it most definitely would.
Perhaps the fact that we have a the capacity to develope a "guilt complex" is what sets us apart.
And so where do all the guilt ridden people go? Church maybe?
As for who should survive? It wouldn't be the person with the most money, because it will be worthless. Unless they plan ahead for what every rapturous event will befall the earth, they won't have any more reason to live than anyone else. . It will be the people with the means to survive. Maybe it could be a chosen few who can be jetisoned off to on Moonbase Alpha, or whatever is happening on mars at that point. People who are not only astronauts but biochemical engineers and the like. Maybe Dr Karl Kruszelnicki.
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/10/2008 2:41:22 AM | ^^^^^"Pretty" men? wouldn't they be gay then?
My vote is humanity, we could tag along with America like a puppy dog, and should they find another planet with peaceful beings that would be nice......Greetings peaceful alien........whats that you say? you have oil?....oh whats this?....well my unsuspecting alien friend....this is an assault rifle.... 
now 2 votes for Zombie plague........... | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/10/2008 8:26:12 PM | Sacrebleu ! Schwachkoepfe !
The " ... prawns into a delicassy and ****oaches into vermin even though they are related, ..." was actually Kockroaches with a 'C' - that profanity filter is taking its job very serious. LOL
Kobalt1963, I don't see things quite as black and white as you seem to be presenting them here. To state categorically that something is either good or bad assumes that all those things you have classified as being bad have nothing positive to offer this world, so I have to disagree with your approach. I see things from a different perspective: . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Sorry to go off-topic but are you kidding me? Global warming gradually takes place over hundreds or thousands of years. The next ice age could be in full swing within 60 years. I think I know which one humanity is more likely to survive.
Sorry for my style guys - there is slight sarcasm mixed right under, i.e. i dont necessarily mean what i write, if it sounds strange there is a good chance i mean the opposite.
However, i wrote in my opening towards the end:
We have an awful lot of opinions and we love to judge instead of just observing for a while.
I definately meant that. Hope that clears it up.
Thanx for your thoughts - we actually agree.
The chaps that voted for the Zombie party, could you please stand to the left here, in the 'doomsday corner', the chaps that voted for the Shaman party, put away your bag-pipes and stand in the 'comedian corner', and those who voted for the 'pretty men' party, stop drooling and join the bag-pipes, thank you.
Those who just learned how to 'cut and paste': we are very proud of you, put away your scissors carefully and join the bag-pipes please.
Perhaps the fact that we have a the capacity to develope a "guilt complex" is what sets us apart. And so where do all the guilt ridden people go? Church maybe?
The keyword is 'Guilt', i agree. And guilt is caused by self-awareness and conditioning.
By-the-way, do infants or animals feel guilt? .... where is a vet when you need one? ....
And yes, without guilt, there wouldnt be any churches, or would there?
Those who evolved on their own feel guilty, and those who got created feel guilty.
Sacrebleu ! - what a crappy design!
If we only wouldnt feel so guilty, we might be able to work this out? | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/11/2008 4:55:15 AM | I'm still reeling from the prawns & c0ckroaches bit... Hmm a prawn c0cktail could be a roach c0cktail and I'd hardly notice?
Some possibilities:
1. Everyone knows that the roaches will inhabit the earth alone post-nuclear holocaust... any good scare-mongering movie proves that!
2. Maybe the whales will return to the land and hunt Japanese for scientific purposes.
3. Amazon women will survive and keep a few lucky blokes for the obvious... nice work
4. Pink elephants with wings will be the benevolent rulers and spin fairy floss for the delight of their bretheren...
Nah, be confident that man is the supreme survivor. Resourceful, smart and cunning enough to manage his way through anything the world can throw back at him. Remember, nothing will happen overnight so there's plenty of time for humans to adapt.
The only sudden thing might be a mega-metoerite, but in the movies they land on it and nuke it off its course... Hey, can Hollywood be wrong?? | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:20:14 AM |
I'm still reeling from the prawns & c0ckroaches bit... Hmm a prawn c0cktail could be a roach c0cktail and I'd hardly notice?
LOL, you might have to change your peeling technique.
The hypothetical meteorite problem is a good one: We would have our minds made up real quick. And lets face it, we havent had a decent hit for a while . . .
As far as 'black & white' goes, that was my point exactly.
We talk in absolutes but very few things actually are. Nothing is just good or just bad, it is what we make of it.
So, if our planet is unable to support Life any longer (never mind the reasons for the moment ... human pollution or asteroid impact) its mainly bad - but ultimately it is what we make out of it. | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/15/2008 8:15:17 PM | I definatley believe in the human spirit and agree with most of what you have said, you have described what is happening and the common human nature......
I agree looking down on this planet you could only interpret us an illogical disruptive and destructive entity, However what a beautifull place to holiday, the natural beauty of this planet, the oceans the sun on your skin, the coolness and smells of a rainforest and waterfalls, the mistifying heat and landscape of the desert, the people are interesting , entertaining, and diverse, balanced out by the harmony in which the wildlife (animal kingdom) live in sync with its environment, but who the hell would want to migrate ....... | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/19/2008 11:53:24 PM |
. . . looking down on this planet you could only interpret us an illogical disruptive and destructive entity, . . .
Yes Jo, we certainly make that impression.
But we are also on top of the food chain on this planet, which means that by the 'rules of engagement' of lifeforms defined by evolution (not us !) we are also the most likely to prevail.
There is always a chance we might use our technology to destroy ourselves but that is the burden of any intelligent and self-aware life form.
We have taken small hesitant steps off this planet and if we succeed - taking enough plants, bacteria and animals with us (Noah's ark again?) - we might just rediscover our dependency on a balanced bio-system and hold it sacred from thereon in. | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/20/2008 6:33:06 AM | We do live on a planet that can change and have a devastating impact on our species, the infrastructure we have created is very fragile and all it would take to create a major problem is one year without crops. What would happen if supermarkets had no food?
What would happen if we had no oil?
The ateroid disaster is real, it's not a question of if it's a question of when.. Google it and you might find it a little scary..
And there is the superflu, remember 1918, 50 million people and in an age when there was no air travel, think about that bug in todays global villiage.. | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/20/2008 5:34:59 PM | Earth 1
humans 0
theres no way we will out survive the earth,We are not rocketing into space to find another planet. We are a frail species,hell we cant even shut down our respirtory systms to proctect us fron hard times of drought and cold(the bad weather we are having is only the worst 'on record' not the worst thats has happened). We are here for a short time. I dont know how long . I think if we get another 40 000 years out of us it would be a mirical ,but I put my money on somthing like 2000-4 000 years tops.
Oh im not negitive about it just realistic I dont see us as anything special just another animal,now the salt water croc thats special.
peace and a long life to all and happy easter | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/20/2008 9:42:25 PM |
theres no way we will out survive the earth,We are not rocketing into space to find another planet. We are a frail species, . . . . . . . . . . . I think if we get another 40 000 years out of us it would be a mirical ,but I put my money on somthing like 2000-4000 years tops.
Oh im not negitive about it just realistic I dont see us as anything special just another animal,now the salt water croc thats special.
Yes you are right, we are frail - compared to a salwater crockodile we are just a soft bag of skin filled with blood and bones - but consider this - it wasnt the crocs that hunted us to extinction and then decided to declare us protected, but the other way around. We are selfish, profiteering, short sighted and ultimately focused onsurival.
Today though, more people then ever before understand that we need plants and animals to survive - and because we are selfish we will make sure we guard them collectively as good as we can ... the salwater croc included.
Mathematics observed in our universe is rarely linear. Most things are cyclic (from electrons, the carbon cycle, cycle of life ... all the way up to planets, solar systems and galaxies. When things change, adapt or evolve they do so on a progressive scale, i.e. if i leave my car on top of a hill in neutral without its handbrake on it will slowly, very slowly start rolling downhill. But its speed will increase progressively (acceleration), and unless there is somebody steering it, it will smack into a tree at 55 km per hour.
Humans are learning from generation to generation more than ever and if we project this non-linear curve we will need - at this rate - less then 500 years to be totally mobile as a race.
But that is just my observation.
The ateroid disaster is real, it's not a question of if it's a question of when.. Google it and you might find it a little scary..
And there is the superflu, remember 1918, 50 million people and in an age when there was no air travel, think about that bug in todays global villiage..
I couldnt agree with you more.
- There is the asteroid/meteorite scenario,
- desease/superflue/cancer/aids/ebola etc. scenario,
- global thermo-nuclear/biological/chemical warfare scenario,
- running out of oil/coal/gas/water/air/sunshine etc. scenario,
- loss of landmass due to global warming scenario (a favourite by populist demand it seems),
And my personal favourite (and none of the 'experts' or green populist lobby groups have caught on to that):
- a global starvation scenario based on global warming:
My line of reasoning is that small organisms, plants, animals and people are somewhere part of the foodchain.
They as a collective form 100% of earths biomass.
The largest part of that biomass is to be found in the oceans.
A large (maybe largest?) part of that is to be found in the polar regions.
That is because tiny and small organisms - the early contributors to the foodchain - need increased amount of oxygen in saltwater to survive, and cold (polar) water holds more oxygen than warm seawater.
Thats is the reason why whales travel to warm waters to have babies, but go back to the polar regions to feed.
A change of seawater temperature (never mind who is responsible) only a few degrees warmer than 'normal' will impact on our global foodchain and create starvation and probably extinction of whole groups of species.
To take the heat out of this line of argument lets just assume for the moment that the sun - going through its cycle - is the reason for 'global warming'.
What do we do, sit around in self pitty, blaming each other for being bad mammels, sitting on our evolutionary thumbs cause we are doomed - or do we use our intellect and our instinct to survive, to grow, evolve and prevail ? | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/20/2008 9:51:14 PM | Hi,
I have to say that my perspective of the big pitcure is changing, because a point as been made, I believe in the earths cycles of ice age etc etc, and their fore that regardless of what we do, the planet will of its own nature wipe the ability for us to survive as we are currently, and on;y certain small regions may be left where a few can survive, or perhaps no life can survive, and the prospect of a new age of species, similar or the opposite to ones in history, could come into exisistance.
And further perhaps taht extinction of certain species could well be in the scheme of the earths cycles, with global warming, and what is coming in the future, perhaps it is inevatable that whales and other sea mamals will not be able to adapt to the future changes and they will die out as a part of the earths evoloution, also elephants and other animals.
Perhaps we are meant to be as we are to further our chances to survive on a planet that is heading towards a time where nothing can exsist except a species with our intelligence and ingenuinety to adapt and protect ourselves from the changing planet conditions.
But, my perspective is the suffering of the people on the bottom of the human food chain, and that while we have the prospects to change and adapt to whatever mother nature throws our way, extreme heat, extreme cold. flooding,what ever it is, I agree we will adapt and can stay one step ahead........
Our societies eveloution is actually starting to make sense, we can't live in harmony with a planet what is heating up and will day be covered in water again perhaps and dont' believe we can stop that.
If society doesn't respect itself and the planet, then it is an healthy society, and it is a warning bell, with ragrd to those who are in power and who are leading us forward through whatever is to come.
My concern again is that we have not evolved as a species that takes care of those on the human chain of survival, we are not taking responsibility for those who are in power. Or responsibility for the way our society is structured.
We are accepting things that are irrational, and intelligent, our societies values are out of order, I am saying that what is in place now, is a pyrimad society that all want to reach the narow top and no one is taking care of the bottom foundation, and while we could make small but sensible and rational changes that can preserve our exsistence,
Society will collapse, and the truth is the affects will depend on where you are on the human food chain, and it appears the most corrupt and the ones who can put themselves first and take from the disadvantaged and disregard the values they force upon the middle class society, will be the ones likely to survive,
The corrupt leaders and politicions have the knowldedge we can only guess at, and can prepare and protect themselves and their own, we are left to contemplate and hope,
The human food chain has already been formed, and I don't like my position on it, and to raise my position on that human food chain and that of my sons and thier future children, as a mother, I don't like it, I want my sons at the top of that food chain......
So, do I push them forward into a life of politics, and white collar crime. should I have taught them to lie and deceive and to look down on those less fortunate, not only look down those less fortunate, but to take advantage and use those less fortunate, to set laws and regulations that keep everyone in their places and stops them from clinmbing the food chain
Petrol prices, interest rates, the long line of things thrown at the average person that secures their spot on the food chain, lowers their chances of moving up, and only increases their chances of being knocked down lower on that food chain....
Wouldnt it be nice to flip this coin and actually function together and form together and build a powerfull union that will change the status quo........
As a mother i am a bleeding heart, If my sons were at the top of that food chain, I wouldn't be on this forum,
I would still have all my beliefs and spitiual yearnings of peace and harmony, because It s the nature I was born with and can't change that.......
But my sons are not on the top of that human food chain,. and I now have to teach them what is becoming obvious, to move themselves up that chain, quickly and with a great deal of effort, and re arrange the values I have taught them, because, In truth my values in this society are noose around their and their future off springs necks and will hold them down on the human food chain.
while I have a gained a new perspective on everything, it is still the same tune......
Just a different song.........
Over all, we only have a short time here and we need to enjoy it and live it well, and that is foremost for me, but I am not a blind human, or a sheep, I see what I see and see it as it is, I can't always rationalise or put it in perspective.....
I am unfortunatley, a spiritual person, with an artisitc nature, I am materialy motivated, and want to be successfull in societies terms, I struggle agaisnt my own nature and values, and at times for my sons benefits wish I didnt have those traits.
I always have to balance out the sacarifice of my inner peace and values, verses material gain and advancement over others, i am intelligent enoughto do it, and yet my own nature prevents me from climbing to the top of the food chain, In truth I am a loser by nature, by values, by spirit.
And that is how it appears, yet my spiritual beliefs lead me to have blind faith that while I may appear to have the heart of a loser that is only the way society is showing it and that in the big scheme of things my children and my childrens children will be at the top of the food chain when it all goes up and they will have my gifts and those gifts of heart and spirit of reasoning and intention, wil be what is required to survive and be the leaders of the next world
Who the hell wants to be at the bottom of a human food chain, humans being what they are, and the who hell would put their children.
Life is a such good book, its a mystery and it unfolds itself each day, i am just a chapter in my book of life, and my sons will live the next chapter and their children will live the next chapter. and their children will keep living chapters untill the end.
The fact is they are all my children, I am the Mother figure, and I have an influence, I can influence the survival and quality of life of those future children.
Perhaps no humans will survive, it is the struggle at the end that I am concerned for and the evil that will be done and allowed in the name of survival, the injustice I have set my future children up for.
In the 70's when I set out into the world, it was very simple, Life appeared so simple
Its been the fatest 20 yrs in the history of human eveloution. I would not have had children if I knew and could see then, what I know and can see know......
I am glad I didnt know it then, because I have two great sons,
Being where we are on the food chain is my soul reason for not wanting more children born in the future, and It's my opinion, I am sure I will have grandchildren and great grandchildren,
Enough too much wine
I am driven by the fact I have sons who I have put on this planet and want them to have every advantage and to be apart af a rational intelligent society, with equal opportunity, and that doesnt really exsist, if we live with in the confines of the law and values put upon us.
Opportunity to move up that human food chain, hard work can get you a little higher, but the unfortunate truth is corruption and deceit, unfairness, being EVIL in my terms, and societies terms will and can get you high up on that chain , and increases your ability to survive as the fittest and most evolved and at the top of that chain..... | |
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| If only one can survive evolution, the planet or humanity, who should survive?
Posted: 3/20/2008 9:52:25 PM | yeah in aust we hunted the croc pretty good but not every where was this so. It will still out survuve us. And its just one example I think ants have it all over us in the race for dominance,most insects actualy.
I just think the human race sucks(if you look at what we do to each other) and is not worth saving,I would give this place to insects any day(except for mosquitoes they can go to hell) | |
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