| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/18/2008 9:40:46 PM | When I ask alot of people they say infinate means to have no beginning and no end.
To be born and live forever would be called immortal.
What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force?
Like the stream you create on your calculater when you divide one by three... Is that an infinate stream? | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/18/2008 9:55:14 PM | An infinite set is simply one which has an unlimited number of members. It doesn't matter whether the set starts at the number 25 and progresses by adding 1 on for infinity, or if it "starts" nowhere at all and contains all possible numbers whatsoever. Both are infinite.
(However, it is important to note that not all sets of infinity are equal. It is possible to subtract infinite sets from each other and end up with a number other than zero. Google the name Cantor to find out more on this.) | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/18/2008 10:04:56 PM | One more thing!
You said:
"Like the stream you create on your calculater when you divide one by three... Is that an infinate stream?"
Here's a fun little fact: 1/3 isn't necessarily a repeating decimal! To magically transform it from an infinite string to a manageable decimal, all you have to do is calculate it in base 12, in which case 1/3 = .4! Looks like it's not so big, after all! | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 5:50:31 AM | Here's a fun little fact: 1/3 isn't necessarily a repeating decimal! To magically transform it from an infinite string to a manageable decimal, all you have to do is calculate it in base 12, in which case 1/3 = .4! Looks like it's not so big, after all!
It isn't the math, it's the stream of numbers.
You can't have infinite on a calculator because the spaces on the machine are limited. Unless it reads .99999999999999999999999999999999to infinity and beyond!
The calculator isn't infinate silly, only the stream of numbers... Or do you believe the last 9 to leave the screen goes around to the front? Even then...
Nonsense thread? That's kinda small thinking. Good job, lol!
Is ignorance bliss? | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 8:17:09 AM | | Sounds like you are describing the universe. It is, after all, non-sentient but it will, according to our current understanding, go on virtually forever. But that is the only physical example that I can think of. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 12:55:29 PM |
What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force?
I call it a rock
I could call it all kind of names since almost everything material had a definite begining and in-definite end... | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 2:08:48 PM |
The calculator isn't infinate silly, only the stream of numbers... Or do you believe the last 9 to leave the screen goes around to the front? Even then...
Nonsense thread? That's kinda small thinking. Good job, lol!
Silly, no. A different way of looking at it, yes. You can know that it is a stream of numbers on the calculator, but the stream is limited by the allowable digits on the calculator. Thereby, the 'stream of numbers on the calculator' shortened to 'calculator' is limited. Learn to think outside the box. Not a matter of being ignorantly blissful, just able to think abstractly and creatively as well as scientifically. MENSA> | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 2:47:39 PM |
What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force? I've always called it God. Sentient beings, IMO, are beneath the above mentioned force | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 4:33:34 PM | Silly, no. A different way of looking at it, yes. You can know that it is a stream of numbers on the calculator, but the stream is limited by the allowable digits on the calculator. Thereby, the 'stream of numbers on the calculator' shortened to 'calculator' is limited. Learn to think outside the box. Not a matter of being ignorantly blissful, just able to think abstractly and creatively as well as scientifically. MENSA>
What I mean is the stream itself goes into infinity... The limited size of the screen isn't really the key, it's that the stream can exist and go on forever unless/until it's stopped by an outside force.
I'm actually asking you to think outside the box here.
Sounds like you are describing the universe. It is, after all, non-sentient but it will, according to our current understanding, go on virtually forever. But that is the only physical example that I can think of.
Except I believe the universe has some sentience now... If we do and everything started with one thing, we are the universe. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 4:39:09 PM | | I realize the stream goes on forever mathematically but the visual is limited by the spaces on the machine. In this case, the stream on the calculator is limited by the force (space) of the machine even though the mathematical stream is infinite. . .... That is abstract thinking------------I have been outside the box for years, glad you could join me here........................... | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 4:58:09 PM | I realize the stream goes on forever mathematically but the visual is limited by the spaces on the machine.
I know what you're saying... Just have to go with deductive intuition and assume it never stops... I mean, observing the whole stream would be limited to our small lifespans anyhow... But it shows that we can start a "seemingly" infinate stream and I can't help but wonder if it could help in our quest for a perpetual motion machine.
I have been outside the box for years, glad you could join me here
Yeah... The box can be boring, haha. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/19/2008 5:01:58 PM | | I'd go with "there's nothing that exists which has a definite beginning" answer. We seem to have a hard time imagining that something just exists infinitely and never had a starting point. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 5:14:42 AM | You seem to be asking in what forms do we encounter the infinite.
1) Seems to allude to infinite space. An infinite universe for example, would have no spatial boundary, and no beginning or end. (However, there are finite models of the cosmos which come up with the same thing, but in a finite universe you can return to the same point again).
2) This seems to allude to eternity. Eternity can have a few different conceptual meanings, but it seems here you take it as infinite life lived over infinite time.
3) This seems to deal with the problem of the origin of life and conciousness. I think the origin of life has biochemical origins (the first DNA and cells probably arose from simpler complex chemical precursors). Conciousness probably has its origins in the size and complexity of our brains, and is connected to the evolution of language and complex social units in our ancestors.
4) This is the result of a fraction which has a repeating and infinite decimal expansion. To mathematicians this is not too spooky, and the infinite occurs in other mathematical contexts such as Cantor's set theory. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 5:41:56 AM | Well truth be told, I just wanted to find out if we can still call something infinate if it had a definate beginning even if it has no end... Saint actually answered it in post #2 surprising me but then #3 made up for it, lol!
I suppose that just naturally leads to more interesting questions. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 4:21:05 PM |
When I ask alot of people they say infinate means to have no beginning and no end. The definition of infinity is a number that is bigger than any other integer. It's bigger that 100, 1000, 1 million, etc. If a distance is from 0 to infinity, then it has infinite length.
To be born and live forever would be called immortal. That is not "immortal". To be immortal means to not be mortal, and to be mortal comes from the French word, "mort", "death". In short, to be mortal means to die, by however means, and to be immortal, means you never die, by any means.
What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force? You call that YOU. You don't have a definite end, because you don't know when you are going to die.
However, if you mean someone who won't die of old age but only by accident, murder or illness, then you mean someone who won't die of old age. But that person is still mortal, because that person does die, and the word mortal means you can die.
Like the stream you create on your calculater when you divide one by three... Is that an infinate stream? Nope. It is a representation of a number (1/3) that has an infinite number of digits, in that however many digits your calculator can show, there are more digits to show. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 5:15:17 PM |
You're driving me nuts! If you guys don't start spelling correctly I'm crackin' skulls!
LOL! Thanx man... I'll make the adjustments!
The definition of infinity is a number that is bigger than any other integer. It's bigger that 100, 1000, 1 million, etc. If a distance is from 0 to infinity, then it has infinite length.
I was asking the difference between an infinite stream which has a beginning and one which doesn't, not what your definition of infinity was, but thanx anyways.
In short, to be mortal means to die, by however means, and to be immortal, means you never die, by any means.
And how does that differ from:
To be born and live forever would be called immortal.
You call that YOU. You don't have a definite end, because you don't know when you are going to die.
Huh? I have a definite end... I will not live forever as the person I am now, this I know so the end is unavoidable and thus, definite... Quite different than what I was suggesting.
Nope. It is a representation of a number (1/3) that has an infinite number of digits, in that however many digits your calculator can show, there are more digits to show.
It doesn't work when you try to argue by saying the same thing as the person you're trying to debate with... A representation of of an infinite number-if kept going- would be an infinite stream... Even if you can't see it all. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 6:16:03 PM |
I was asking the difference between an infinite stream which has a beginning and one which doesn't, not what your definition of infinity was, but thanx anyways. Your post was about the definition of "the infinite", and I gave that. I've never heard of an "infinite stream" before, and if I would hear of it, I would assume that it means "a stream of infinite length".
Of course, there might be a special definition of an "infinite stream" that had nothing to do with infinity whatsoever. I would like to see that definition.
In short, to be mortal means to die, by however means, and to be immortal, means you never die, by any means. And how does that differ from: To be born and live forever would be called immortal.
You call that YOU. You don't have a definite end, because you don't know when you are going to die. Huh? I have a definite end... I will not live forever as the person I am now, this I know so the end is unavoidable and thus, definite... Quite different than what I was suggesting.
Nope. It is a representation of a number (1/3) that has an infinite number of digits, in that however many digits your calculator can show, there are more digits to show. It doesn't work when you try to argue by saying the same thing as the person you're trying to debate with... A representation of of an infinite number-if kept going- would be an infinite stream... Even if you can't see it all. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/20/2008 6:48:58 PM | | Personally, i'd say infinite referrs to an amount that has not been calculated. No one can really say something will never end, because no one has seen it end. Maybe eventually scientists/mathematicians will actually develop the full number for Pi. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/21/2008 12:27:18 AM | Scorpio;
Your post was about the definition of "the infinite", and I gave that. I've never heard of an "infinite stream" before, and if I would hear of it, I would assume that it means "a stream of infinite length".
Actually the only questions in my op were;
What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force?
Like the stream you create on your calculater when you divide one by three... Is that an infinate stream?
But yeah, I guess that's what I meant by an infinite stream.
But there is no hard-and-fast rule that everyone WILL definitely die. You could be the exception to the rule.
Yeah, but I could be the reincarnate of the Spaghetti Monster too... I'm pretty sure I'm going to die at some point and the how is kind of a moot point... As sure as I am that we are all unique is how sure I am that I will pass away never to be repeated... Who knows? Maybe someday another exact me will type this... I doubt it though.
Well, I've never heard of an infinite stream, and I did Mathematics as a degree in university, and for 3 years of my life, I used infinity at least 20 times a day. There are infinite sequences. There are infinite series. But I've never heard of an "infinite stream" until your post.
Well maybe I just called it something different, but an infinite stream sounds kinda self explanitory... To me anyhow.
Hi denver;
No one can really say something will never end, because no one has seen it end. Maybe eventually scientists/mathematicians will actually develop the full number for Pi.
Could be... The potential is there but I also see alot of potential in a self propelled cycle of motion. | |
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/21/2008 2:49:14 AM |
Actually the only questions in my op were; What do you call something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force?
Like the stream you create on your calculater when you divide one by three... Is that an infinate stream? But yeah, I guess that's what I meant by an infinite stream.
Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem But "something which isn't sentient that has a definate beginning but no end unless from an outside force", is NOT an immortal. That is just someone who won't die due to old age.
But there is no hard-and-fast rule that everyone WILL definitely die. You could be the exception to the rule. Yeah, but I could be the reincarnate of the Spaghetti Monster too... I'm pretty sure I'm going to die at some point and the how is kind of a moot point... As sure as I am that we are all unique is how sure I am that I will pass away never to be repeated... Who knows? Maybe someday another exact me will type this... I doubt it though.
Such thinking also leads to the stagnation of science, because if such thinking persists, scientists can no longer accept any evidence that contradicts what they have normally found to be true, or any theories that question what they have always believed to be true. | |
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| Aspects of the infinite-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/21/2008 1:49:59 PM | ... some stray thoughts ...
some objects are infinite and bounded (the collection of points in a disk, for example)
infinity is independent of having a beginning, an end, both, or none (ordinals vs cardinals)
one can distinguish between potentially infinite - we can always add 1 to any integer, no matter how large it is - and actually infinite (the set containing all integers exists).
a matter of philosophy (and taste) i should think
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| Aspects of the infinate-- Just a definition problem
Posted: 3/23/2008 9:54:12 AM | Happy Easter, Scorpio;
It can be very dangerous to assume that what seems to be the norm, cannot be otherwise. I've read of towns in Poland, where only a hundred years ago, there were NO African-Americans, and when one showed up, they all went by to see the person, because they never saw one before. If people thought that what is the norm, cannot be otherwise, those people would have believed that the African-American was not human, because they and their friends had never heard of a human with black skin. I believe that you would not feel very happy if an African-American was treated like an animal, just because he was "different".
Uhh... I don't discriminate... Neither does change... Because I assume all will shed their current form doesn't mean I think ill of the "different"... Egads! I'd have to discriminate against everyone!
If someone proves to me that a form can be kept for a much longer time than is the norm, I would accept that... It could very well happen sometime, I suppose... I certainly won't fear them or anything that would make me treat them badly for simply being immortal!
Such thinking also leads to the stagnation of science, because if such thinking persists, scientists can no longer accept any evidence that contradicts what they have normally found to be true, or any theories that question what they have always believed to be true.
I never said it would never happen... I said I doubt it will happen to me... You confuse my doubt with false certainty.
Hey Ohbi!
one can distinguish between potentially infinite - we can always add 1 to any integer, no matter how large it is - and actually infinite (the set containing all integers exists).
Cool way of looking at it... That's actually why I figure infinity constantly grows.
a matter of philosophy (and taste) i should think
I guess at the moment that's true... I'm hoping one day we will tap into the infinite potential that's -- in my opinion -- available to us, making a matter of philosophy a definite solution to the energy problem... I also think that will be a contributing force to a world wide understanding of equality.
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