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 Author Thread: 2012 & astronomical facts?
 cieo

Joined: 9/11/2006
Msg: 1
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/3/2008 8:56:05 AM
2012 & astronomical facts?

Hi. I'm looking to talk with people who know a lot more about astronomy than I do, to get the scientific view about a "rogue" planet that supposedly enters into our solar system every 3600 years, around the year 2012. This *may* cause a shift/flipping of the earths geo-magnetic poles, widespread earth quakes etc... but 2012 is also supposed to be a time when a great "enlightenment" is said to come to a large part of the worlds population...

I don't want to start a big discusion on religion or prophecy, I just want compare how the scientific *facts*, line up with the potential "predictions"... comparing the orbital path of the rogue planet (which NASA has mentioned), with the planets in our solar system, how they might overlap around 2012 & *if* this planets gravity would REALLY be strong/close enough to have a devestaing effect on the Earth.

To know more on the topic before you post, check the net for videos about 2012.
 AncientMuse

Joined: 8/12/2007
Msg: 2
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/3/2008 12:02:43 PM
I don't know of any Nasa articles regarding this rogue planet you mention. Planet 'X' or Nibiru that supposedly passes through our solar system every 3600 is, at best, hearsay, and not something any official scientific community verifies. This 'Nibiru' stems from sumerian writings (more specifically cuneiform stone tablets) which date back roughly 6000 years. The term 'Nibiru' means "planet of the crossing".

The only mention of a 'rogue planet' was back in 1998. It was later discovered to not be a planet at all. Here's a brief article posted by CNN back in 2000 :


Hubble image of so-called 'rogue' planet is actually a star :

April 7, 2000
BALTIMORE, Maryland (CNN) -- A distant object discovered two years ago and thought to be a planet is not a planet at all. It is actually a star, according to astronomers.

The Hubble Space Telescope image was originally thought to show the only planet ever directly observed outside our solar system. Astronomers now say the object is too hot to be a planet, and therefore must be a star.
"Astronomers now believe it is more likely that the strange object is a background star whose light has been dimmed and reddened by interstellar dust, giving the illusion that it is in the vicinity of the double star system in which it was initially believed to have been a planet," NASA said in a statement Thursday.

NASA released the image of the object called, "TMR-1C," to much fanfare in 1998, hailing it as the first extra-solar planet ever photographed. It showed a glowing dot at the end of a massive stream of gas, stretching back to a binary star in the consellation Taurus.

Astronomer Susan Terebey of the Extrasolar Research Corp. in Pasadena, CA, who analysed TMR-1C, announced at a NASA press conference in 1998 that she thought the object was a hot proto-planet that for some reason had been expelled from its star system and was shooting out into intersellar space all by itself. She did say at the time that scientists needed to make further observations to confirm her theory.

Now, in a paper on her re-evaluation of the object being published in the May Astronomical Journal, Tereby states, "The new data do not lend weight to the protoplanet interpretation, and the results remain consistent with the explanation that TMR-1C may be a background star."

NASA endorsed the new findings.



But lets look at this logically : Just for the sake of argument, let's say that this rogue planet/comet/or whatever does exist and it passes by every 3600 years. Should this rogue planet be approaching us within the next 4 years, certainly Nasa, astronomers, amateur astronomers, and the like would most certainly be seeing it by now. Also something else to ponder : The earth is still currently in existence (humans are still thriving) and there is no known absolute 3600 year cycle to where there is drastic climate change or weather patterns or earthquakes or tsunamis or ice ages, etc.

Here is the only astronomical facts discussed in the science community regarding the year 2012, and even this is still not completely known for sure. It's speculated thus far :


Nasa : Dec 14,2007
The solar physics community is abuzz this week. No, there haven't been any great eruptions or solar storms. The source of the excitement is a modest knot of magnetism that popped over the sun's eastern limb on Dec. 11th, pictured below in a pair of images from the orbiting Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO).I

t may not look like much, but "this patch of magnetism could be a sign of the next solar cycle," says solar physicist David Hathaway of the Marshall Space Flight Center.

For more than a year, the sun has been experiencing a lull in activity, marking the end of Solar Cycle 23, which peaked with many furious storms in 2000--2003. "Solar minimum is upon us," he says.

The big question now is, when will the next solar cycle begin?

It could be starting now.

"New solar cycles always begin with a high-latitude, reversed polarity sunspot," explains Hathaway. "Reversed polarity " means a sunspot with opposite magnetic polarity compared to sunspots from the previous solar cycle. "High-latitude" refers to the sun's grid of latitude and longitude. Old cycle spots congregate near the sun's equator. New cycle spots appear higher, around 25 or 30 degrees latitude.

The region that appeared on Dec. 11th fits both these criteria. It is high latitude (24 degrees N) and magnetically reversed. Just one problem: There is no sunspot. So far the region is just a bright knot of magnetic fields. If, however, these fields coalesce into a dark sunspot, scientists are ready to announce that Solar Cycle 24 has officially begun.

Many forecasters believe Solar Cycle 24 will be big and intense. Peaking in 2011 or 2012, the cycle to come could have significant impacts on telecommunications, air traffic, power grids and GPS systems. (And don't forget the Northern Lights!) In this age of satellites and cell phones, the next solar cycle could make itself felt as never before.

The furious storms won't start right away, however. Solar cycles usually take a few years to build to a frenzy and Cycle 24 will be no exception. "We still have some quiet times ahead," says Hathaway.

Meanwhile, all eyes are on a promising little active region. Will it become the first sunspot of a new solar cycle? Stay tuned for updates from Science@NASA.


The next couple of years should clarify whether our Sun steps into another drastic solar sycle (possible polar shift) and what effects, if any, will be on earth. Solar cycles (be they major or minor) always happen and always will. And we (earth, humans) are still here.

I think people have been taking bits and pieces of information over the years and running with it, to coincide with the 'doomsday mayan calendar' theories.

So it's more than likely, you've been misinformed about this whole thing too. Claims of Nasa verifying this rogue planet thing, the supposed lining up of the winter solstice with the galactic center, the mayan calendar, etc. all apparently happening Dec 2012.
 cieo

Joined: 9/11/2006
Msg: 3
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/4/2008 11:25:07 AM
misinformed? No... The great flood, which is recounted in pretty well every religion, happened about 3600 years ago...

& Actually, it was shown on the news a few years ago that NASA has discovered a very large planet outside of our solar system, but not really belonging to any other solar system. Though not much has been mentioned about it since. How far away it is, I didn't take notice at the time, hence one of the many reasons for my post here... Although other posts on the net "claim" that you can see Nibiru with the naked eye in the southern hemisphere. There's even supposed pics of it next to the setting sun.

Nibiru is said to be a very large/dense planet, so... I'm just trying to line up all the facts I can to make a logical conclusion.
 Pyro74

Joined: 4/23/2006
Msg: 4
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/4/2008 12:50:51 PM
Check this link out
http://www.edgenews.com/issues/2003/01/mccanney.html
 Topgear1

Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 5
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/4/2008 4:37:22 PM
The only thing I'm aware of concerning your question...

"The sun will pass through the galactic plane of the Milky way (from earth's vantage point) on Dec 21, 2012...

This isn't anything that hasn't happened in the past and the earth is still here.

It's not the end of the world!

So, there is no reason to board up the basement windows and stock pile food. Doomsday isn't upon us!
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 6
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/5/2008 11:13:42 PM
http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/2012.html

The conjunction is not clearly limited to a single day, but covers a period of many years.

The Milky Way is a luminous band in the sky that can be seen only (sometimes) at night, outside, from dark locations far from city lights and other lights. The Milky Way has a fixed location amidst the stars in the sky. The annual path of the Sun between the stars in the sky crosses the Milky Way in two locations, near the constellations of the Archer and the Twins. So, the Sun passes through the Milky Way in the sky twice a year.

The southern solstice (the beginning of winter in the northern hemisphere, and of summer in the southern hemisphere) always falls around 21 December in the Gregorian calendar (around 11:13 UTC on 21 December 2012). The spot where the Sun then is between the stars slowly shifts between the stars, because of the precession of the equinoxes. In about 26,000 years that spot moves once around the whole sky (compared to the stars), roughly along the ecliptic (the annual path of the Sun between the stars in the sky), so the southern solstitial point moves through the Milky Way twice each 26,000 years.

The Milky Way has no very clear boundaries, but is on average about 12 degrees wide in the sky, and the solstitial point takes about 12°/360°*26000 = about 900 years to cover such a distance.

The Milky Way has no clear central line either, so there is uncertainty about when the solstitial point crosses that central line. Different groups of people can each use reasonable definitions for the central line that yet deviate from one another. If we estimate (for example) that the uncertainty about the "best" central line of the Milky Way is half a degree (which is only a small fraction of the width of the Milky Way), then the corresponding uncertainty in the date at which the solstitial point crosses the central line is 0.5°/360°*26000 = about 36 years.

The conjunction of the southern solstitial point and the Milky Way is therefore quite rare (it happens only once each about 13,000 years) but also lasts many years.
 Enigma252

Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 7
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Posted: 4/6/2008 5:57:31 PM
Hey, guys, what about the Black Hole in the Milky Way? Is our orbit going to be close enough to that to matter?
 x_file

Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 8
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Posted: 4/6/2008 6:10:01 PM
Flipping of the Earths Geo-magnetic poles, earth quakes, enlightenment... oh boy! 2012? What? I gotta wait for the real fun for 6 more years? Damn it! If I don't see massive fire-showers and unicorns I am gonna be really pissed.
 FrogO_Oeyes

Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 9
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Posted: 4/6/2008 6:17:19 PM

Hey, guys, what about the Black Hole in the Milky Way? Is our orbit going to be close enough to that to matter?

No. It's not going anywhere, and it's on the order of, off the top of my head, 70000 light years away. At the speed of light, it would take 70000 years to arrive, and it would be moving FAR slower than that. By comparison, the closest visible stars are about 4 light years away, and our solar system is believed to extend about 1 light year from the sun.

No... The great flood, which is recounted in pretty well every religion, happened about 3600 years ago

There's no evidence it occured at all. There's abundant evidence of many separate, giant regional floods, mainly about 10000-12000 years ago.

Nibiru is said to be a very large/dense planet

The claims are completely fictitious and not supported by any science. Such a large body could be detected within our solar system by the gravitational influences it has. We have discovered much smaller bodies within the solar system both by gravitation and by telescope. More than 200 planets have been discovered in other solar systems, mainly by their gravitational effects. Thus, there is no evidence this planet exists.

Second, the "ancient texts" used as references on this, have been badly and deliberately mistranslated by people who lack the actual expertise to get it right.

Third, IF such a planet existed, capable of doing what is claimed, it would do a whole lot MORE damage than stated. In order to overcome Earth's pull on everything on its surface, it would have to be MUCH larger, or extremely close. The more similar in mass, the closer it would have to be. Floods might be the least of our worries.

Fourth, there's no evidence any such damage ever occured.

It's a tempest in a teacup.
 stargazer1000

Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 10
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Posted: 4/6/2008 7:19:31 PM
Oh boy! Planet X, Nibiru, Rogue Planet, etc? All bunk!

As an enthusiastic amateur who has been following the subject for the past 30 years, I can tell you that I haven't heard word one from serious astronomers who have seen hide nor hair of a mysterious "rogue planet" which is going to swing close to Earth, etc. And, with all the automatic sky surveys currently underway, something large enough to be coming close and having as much effect as "Planet X" is supposed to have, would have long been discovered.

The only even close to planetary-mass objects - that is larger than Pluto which was recently demoted to a "minor planet - orbit stably around the sun beyond Neptune. Pluto is only the closest and brightest of these "trans-Neptunian" objects. 1992 QB1 was the first previously unknown of these objects discovered in the early 90s by Dave Hewitt and Jane Luu. Since there, there's been quite a few more including Eris, Quoar and several others.

Hmm, black holes? Although there are several million thought to exist in our galaxy alone, none are approaching anywhere close to Earth. We know that because even a relatively quiescent black hole is going to show up on a radio telescope.

It's things like this that show a shockingly poor astronomy education in the culture. Unfortunately, the real science could be construed by the general populace as rather boring so there are some who have to cling onto foolish notions, make it sound spectacular, add a splash of real science and proceed to sound authoritative and many will eat it up as "fact."

Believe me, if astronomers knew of a nearby black hole, a rogue planet or any of the things promoted by the usual "woo woo" crowd, they'd be jumping all over it. Research grants would flow and there would be papers galore on it. Such is the reality of science, not the usual conspiracy theory hush-hush crap you hear of.
 CrystalUnicorn

Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 11
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:19:32 PM
hey x file, the unicorns are still here! lol

sorry for jumping in folks, reference to 2012 caught my attention.

first i'd like to say....
amazing how the human being can live on a planet and not come to fully realize that it's moving. in my understanding our universe is constantly traveling through space.

secondly;
however they did it, the Mayan were able to see this. in so doing they saw many of the comets, planets, etc that we know exist today. perhaps there's more out there that will come around again. only time will tell, i'm not sure our controlling powers will.
 Scorpiodaddy4U

Joined: 4/3/2008
Msg: 12
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:21:41 PM
The "great flood " as you called it, is not only in religion and certainly not everyone.
It is in fact the oldest story in civilization dating back to Sumeria. Where Gilgamesh not Noah relates the tale of the angry gods that flood the whole world, which at that time existed
solely as Sumeria.It is in fact the
Tigres and Euphrates rivers converging to wipe out the populace. The story was then passed from generation to generation by word of mouth. Until the modern version of the end of the world existed. The Dinosaurs were extinguished by the earth.Man was never punished by "God's flood" The primitives assuaged their fear by blaming god or gods. We no longer
need such devices. We have science. It is now a matter of record.
 cieo

Joined: 9/11/2006
Msg: 13
PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!!
Posted: 4/7/2008 5:23:53 PM
Ok kiddies everyone repeat after me:

"IF WE GO OFF TOPIC, WE WILL NOT GET OUR DESERT..."

Now say it 3 times, LIKE YOU REALLY MEAN IT!!! :(


So I'll repeat the topic again:
I'm looking to talk with people who know a lot more about astronomy than I do, to get the *scientific* view about a "rogue" planet that supposedly enters into our solar system every 3600 years, around the year 2012.

There's plenty of people out there who don't believe in this, I'm sure there's lots of Mormons & Christians for you to harass, but not here, so then you don't need to spend time here, ok?

ESTABLISHED FACTS:
- There was a great world wide flood, about 3600 years ago.

- There is solid geological evidence, that the earths geo-magnetic poles have shifted/flipped SEVERAL times.

- There is solid archaeological evidence, that the earth was populated by advanced civilizations 10's of 1000's of years ago, although much of the evidence has been repressed by various religions/governments.

- Scientific/mathematic calculations over the last 200 have been predicting/searching for an elusive 10th planet

- Nasa HAS discovered a large dense planet on the outside rim of our solar system. This was even reported on the CTV evening news a few years ago!

- 2012 has been predicated over the last several 1000 years (in dozens of cultures) as a time of great geological up-heaval & also of the coming of a great enlightenment & the 1000 years peace. Prophets do exist, whether you believe in them or not...

- *IF* there was the sort of impending disaster that this planet might imply, then the government would keep it covered up as long as it could...

- There is an on-going battle between the forces of enlightenment (good) & those who profit by keeping the truth from the masses. You don't think so? Then why does a gallon of gas cost 15 cents in Brazil? (BTW - that's a rhetorical question)

Negating the existence of something, does not cease it to exist...

I'm not here to try & convince anyone about anything, I'm just keeping an open mind (what a concept, eh?) & trying to weigh in all the facts, without being fed a pile of other stuff, ya know?

Just take a peek on the net about all this & it will truly blow your little minds kiddies...


PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC, THANK YOU & HAVE A NICE DAY... ALSO:
THINK TWICE BEFORE PURCHASING BEACH FRONT PROPERTY FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS... :)
 FrogO_Oeyes

Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 14
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Posted: 4/7/2008 6:06:18 PM

ESTABLISHED FACTS:
- There was a great world wide flood, about 3600 years ago

This is not a fact. There is NO evidence of this occuring. If you want to state this as a fact supported by science, provide the evidence.


- There is solid geological evidence, that the earths geo-magnetic poles have shifted/flipped SEVERAL times.

Yes, but not during the lifetime of the human species.


- There is solid archaeological evidence, that the earth was populated by advanced civilizations 10's of 1000's of years ago, although much of the evidence has been repressed by various religions/governments.

So you have no proof that you have proof? That's hearsay, conspiracy theory, and in absence of evidence to the contrary, utter bunk. Babar made the universe. I could prove it, but the illuminati have suppressed all evidence of talking cartoon godly elephants.


Scientific/mathematic calculations over the last 200 have been predicting/searching for an elusive 10th planet

So? People have been looking for leprechauns and Santa Claus for centuries. Still no proof.


- Nasa HAS discovered a large dense planet on the outside rim of our solar system. This was even reported on the CTV evening news a few years ago!

The CTV news is not exactly a reliable source. There is no evidence of the planet you imply. An extensive list of minor planets is available on any number of websites, including Wikipedia and probably NASA. All such planets are smaller and less dense than Earth.


- 2012 has been predicated over the last several 1000 years (in dozens of cultures) as a time of great geological up-heaval & also of the coming of a great enlightenment & the 1000 years peace. Prophets do exist, whether you believe in them or not...

Nothing definitive has been predicted or proven, beyond basic astronomy and meterology. Argumentum at populum, ad numerum, and ad antiquitatum logical fallacies. Bad logic is not good proof, it's no proof at all.


- *IF* there was the sort of impending disaster that this planet might imply, then the government would keep it covered up as long as it could...

A variant on Pascal's wager, which is a losing bet. And it's conspiracy theory, and just plain unsupported by evidence. More logical fallacy.


- There is an on-going battle between the forces of enlightenment (good) & those who profit by keeping the truth from the masses. You don't think so? Then why does a gallon of gas cost 15 cents in Brazil? (BTW - that's a rhetorical question)

See above.


Negating the existence of something, does not cease it to exist...

Claiming something without proof does not MAKE it exist. Proving that the properties of the claim are impossible DOES prove that it doesn't exist. That's how science works. It's been established that there is both a) lack of evidence of Nabiru, and b) evidence that such a body could not and did not do the things claimed of it. Your evidence doesn't exist, therefore anything which depends on it also does not exist.


I'm not here to try & convince anyone about anything, I'm just keeping an open mind (what a concept, eh?) & trying to weigh in all the facts, without being fed a pile of other stuff, ya know?

The pile began here, with your "facts":

ESTABLISHED FACTS:
- There was a great world wide flood, about 3600 years ago.


Just take a peek on the net about all this & it will truly blow your little minds kiddies...

Lots of claims on the web. Where this is concerned, their is no evidenciary support. Follow the bread crumbs and you will find a limited number of individuals using each other as references, all leading back to a handful of sources which have no REAL evidence.
 Reaver4k

Joined: 2/29/2008
Msg: 15
PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!!
Posted: 4/8/2008 7:53:41 AM
I'm more Worried about small asteroids that are under 1km in diameter then "planet X"
As for 2012, its the year the Mayan Calender rolls over, nothing big.
 AncientMuse

Joined: 8/12/2007
Msg: 16
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/8/2008 8:49:34 AM
You see tigerbee, here's the way it works.... when you state "established facts" in a science forum, the protocol is to provide sound evidence from various respected science community(s)/individual(s).

There are hundreds of websites regarding 2012, but this still DOES NOT establish fact from fiction.



ESTABLISHED FACTS:
- There was a great world wide flood, about 3600 years ago.

- There is solid geological evidence, that the earths geo-magnetic poles have shifted/flipped SEVERAL times.

- There is solid archaeological evidence, that the earth was populated by advanced civilizations 10's of 1000's of years ago, although much of the evidence has been repressed by various religions/governments.

- Scientific/mathematic calculations over the last 200 have been predicting/searching for an elusive 10th planet

- Nasa HAS discovered a large dense planet on the outside rim of our solar system. This was even reported on the CTV evening news a few years ago!

- 2012 has been predicated over the last several 1000 years (in dozens of cultures) as a time of great geological up-heaval & also of the coming of a great enlightenment & the 1000 years peace. Prophets do exist, whether you believe in them or not...


Please provide viable proofs to your above "established facts". And then you'll have people willing to discuss said facts in a more 'scientific manner'.

Otherwise, you will still continue to receive responses in the effect of : 'religious bunk', 'hearsay', etc.

Oh and by the way, just so you understand something..... prophets, predictions, great enlightenments, et al, are not what most people would consider to be 'scientific' forms of discussion. So if your thread has fallen off topic... it's your own doing. Provide scientific proofs and you will get scientific discussions.

Scientifically educated/knowledgable people will not waste their time on hearsay... Unless perhaps you're just looking for some patronage to your unfounded beliefs ? Then we can play 'The Opinion Game' all day if you like.....

It's really quite simple.

 stargazer1000

Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 17
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Posted: 4/8/2008 4:44:02 PM
Okay, well, like I said, 30 years as an enthusiastic amateur astronomer here. In short, I've been reading voraciously on the subject, going out with a telescope to observe the sky, etc. I don't know if that equals sufficiently informed and qualified to give an opinion in your mind but here goes.

It was likely that the "planet" in the outer solar system you heard about was Quoar or Sedna, trans-Neptunian objects that are actually about the size of Pluto or slightly larger. And they stay beyond Neptune. And that's it. Believe me, you'd know if there was something else out there.

The mathematics that were used to discover Uranus, Neptune and finally Pluto were as good as they could be for the time but, most recently, examination of some of that early mathematics showed that mistakes were made. In short, there are no indications of a "10th planet" beyond Neptune.

And what do you consider a "rogue" planet? If it is formed in this solar system, then it isn't a "rogue." It is a part of the solar retinue. If you are talking a high-eccentricity planet that follow a highly elliptical path that crosses the known planets on a regular basis, you would see stronger evidence. One example I can think of is in the asteroid belt. Several "families" of asteroids orbit the sun in particular resonant orbits of Jupiter. If a planetary-mass object passed by even on such a long time-scale (not that long in astronomical terms), there would be stronger evidence there.

Additionally, there are several automated searches for asteroids and other objects that are at risk of impacting Earth. Something that large and coming anywhere near the inner solar system would have been found. As for cover-ups, well, you are free to believe what you want. But if there was another planet in the solar system, I have no doubt that astronomers would be crowing about it right now.

So does this mean I don't get my large, dry region that gets less than a certain amount of rainfall per year, thus qualifying as a desert. Or is that a sweet confection or baked good that is eaten as part of the ending of a meal, hence dessert?
 chamelion2

Joined: 4/2/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 4/9/2008 5:04:55 AM
Doesn't Chiron have an irregular orbit? Could that be the 'rogue'? Or is that an optical illusion? Yes, could we just be knocked by asteroids & such, as has happened before?
 PurpleCrayon~

Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 19
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/9/2008 1:15:41 PM
Here is a link which gives the cosmic events due to happen in 2012. It is quite long and detailed so this 'rogue planet' might be in the article.. but, my understanding is that it is an alignment of planets and objects already known to us.

It's an interesting read. Something I look forward to becoming reality.

http://www.adishakti.org/mayan_end_times_prophecy_12-21-2012.htm
 cieo

Joined: 9/11/2006
Msg: 20
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/9/2008 4:12:04 PM
Yeah I know, dessert/desert... don't always have time to spell check...

I havn't made up my mind about the 2012 thing, as there are discreptancies.
But there's enough evidence for me to want to dig deeper.

Notice how there are more people posting on here, who happily slag on the potential implications of 2012... than would simply surf the net a little more, for more solid evidence? Or are the potential implications of 2012, just a little too mind blowing for the average person?

So, I will not waste my time responding to some of the negative posts so far.
Ask a scientist in their respective field if there:
- never was a great flood
- why their astronomical calculations are always slightly off
(explainable by a 10th planet)
- what a 2000 year old battery looks like

The other planet(oids) that have been discovered in the last 10 years beyond Pluto, being about the same size as Pluto, are too small to be the rougue planet & do not intersect our orbital plane at about a 35% angle, as Nibiru is suppoesd to.

Nibiru's eliptical orbit will supposedly take it through the asteroid belt between Mars & Jupiter (where it previously destroyed a planet, notice how all the planets AND that asteroid belt, are all about the same distance from each other?), coming clockwise (all the planets in our system rotate counter clockwise) from above & swinging around the Sun.
So it's NOT supposed to hit Earth (although the asteroids/debris it stirs up in it's wake, might creat some havoc).

This planet would have to be very large/dense, about the size of Neptune or Uranus. To be able to flip poles...

There IS also another (albiet esoteric) explanation. According to some info I came across recently, the planet MAY "appear" out of nowhere... Though this may sound rather un-scientific, UNLESS it was VERY small & VERY-VERY dense...

Crazy?

The best way to spot a black hole or collapsed star, is by observing the matter it influences around it (how can a black hole emit radio waves anyway?). But *IF* it were in a matterless region of space (like beyond the asteroid belt, beyond Uranus) then there wouldn't be a way to spot it UNTIL it moved closer to any other matter...

Many scientific principles we take for granted today, were ridiculed 100's of years ago.
Keep an open mind & see what might happen...
 stargazer1000

Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 21
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2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/9/2008 8:24:33 PM
Okay tiger, you want to discuss science, how about offering us a bit more support of your argument with evidence that is substantive. Sorry, but vague references to the Internet and encouragements for the rest of us to have "open minds" ain't going to cut it.

A Uranus or Neptune-sized planet coming in from the outer solar system would have been observed a long time ago from one of a half dozen different automatic searches, not the least includes NEAR which has discovered hundreds of comets, thousands of asteroids, etc. Many of them are "Very" small. Not to mention several thousand dedicated amateur comet and asteroid hunters with a lot more to work with than a computer and an opinion - like 10 to 20 inches of Dobsonian comet-hunting power! Hey, objects like Quoar and Sedna are well beyond the orbit of Pluto but were still discovered by ground-based telescopes. One was even imaged using a simple backyard imager and telescope. I think an object the size of Uranus or Neptune would not be missed.

If a planet was disrupting the outer solar system, the bombardment would already be underway. Comets and asteroids would already be coming into the inner solar system hundreds at a time instead of their current lazy rates. Remember the late heavy bombardment? A few hundred million years into the formation of the solar system, planets were jostling about causing bodies both larger and smaller to be ejected out of the solar system or into the sun. Our moon is a product of an earlier collision and the scars from the LHB are still evident today.

How would astronomers know a black hole was in the neighbourhood? Well, despite it's name, a black hole isn't entirely black. Sure, the singularity doesn't emit electromagnetic radiation but it's accretion disk is the source of tremendous amounts of X-rays, radio waves, synchrotron radiation and the black hole itself may even emit a form of radiation known as Hawking radiation theorized by Stephen Hawking. Ever hear of Cygnus X-1? How about the Centaurus A? Or Messier 81. Seyfert galaxies? Quasars? All have an angry and hungry black hole at their centre.

Sorry but you're wrong about the 10th planet math. That myth was dispelled years ago. Moving on.

Again, no evidence of recent disruption in the solar system either. Asteroids in the main belt - possibly evidence of a disrupted planet or, just as likely, a failed planet - orbit in measureable resonances to Jupiter's orbit and its gravitational influence. Those resonances would be seriously disrupted should a gravitationally disruptive body pass through the solar system.

And that, Mr. Bee, is science and a subject I'm pretty comfortable with. Yes, science has come up with some pretty bizarre and radical ideas of its own. But they don't pass muster without proof. Unfortunately, there are too many out there who are proponents of things like Nibiru, cosmic brothers, moon landing conspiracies and creationists who prey on the scientific ignorance of a too many people to make themselves sound clever and to stick it in the eye of the vast conspiracy of masons, NASA, "government," and other muckie-mucks trying to "hide the truth" that only they have been smart enough to uncover and woe-betide those who dare question their wisdom.

See you Jan. 1, 2014.
 FrogO_Oeyes

Joined: 8/21/2005
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Posted: 4/9/2008 8:51:21 PM

But there's enough evidence for me to want to dig deeper.

You have a pretty loose definition of "evidence".


Notice how there are more people posting on here, who happily slag on the potential implications of 2012

I'll make the generous assumption that I am one of those people. From there, I will point out that I have not "slagged" anything, nor spoken of any "implications". There ARE no implications. You've got a tall tale with no supporting evidence. That doesn't "imply" anything. There is no "slagging". There is simply the rational point made that faulty logic combined with false evidence does not lead to a credible conclusion.

than would simply surf the net a little more, for more solid evidence?

Critical thinking is important. Credible evidence can be found on the web. Surfing without a critical thought in your head will not lead you to it. Solid evidence is tested and retested and influences every field of endeavor beyond the immediate. That's why Nabiru is a crock. The fairy tales violate numerous physcial laws repeatedly; laws which hold up otherwise, every second of every day.

So, I will not waste my time responding to some of the negative posts so far.

Translation: I will offer no evidence and no logical or scientific argument.

Ask a scientist in their respective field if there:
- never was a great flood

My training is diverse, but focused on evolution and biogeography. It requires extensive knowledge of other fields, including trivial stuff like geology, meteorology, and plate tectonics. My hard drive and thumb drives are packed with technical papers, which I use both as research and reference material, and as recreational reading. Try finding a reputable scientist who DOES believe in a global flood ANY time. A relevant field would be geology, meteorology, archaeology, or even basic physics. The evidence does not exist. I would be aware of it, and I'm not even directly involved in the "relevant" fields. Such things have broad effects which influence MOST fields of science. Thus far, no other field is influenced because it didn't happen.

- what a 2000 year old battery looks like

Seen it. And? It's suspected to have been used for electroplating possibly. That would not require any kind of extensive infrastructure, just a simple acid battery and a solution of chemicals derived from selected natural sources [just like particular rocks were chosen to obtain tin, lead, or copper]. The item which is believed to be a battery is made of clay. Clay was readily available even in the stone age. To use electricity for other purposes would require more extensive metallurgy. Wire, smelting, motors, etc. Garbage metals will last millenia. So where is the evidence of this infrastructure? Why are the ancient communities where this took place built of stone age and bronze age substances: clay, brick, stone, wood, stray...NO evidence of any kind of electrical generation or consumption, and no metallurgy beyond copper, tin, bronze, lead. You have a toy. You want us to believe that a paper kite would be proof of a Concorde.


- why their astronomical calculations are always slightly off
(explainable by a 10th planet)

The other planet(oids) that have been discovered in the last 10 years beyond Pluto, being about the same size as Pluto, are too small to be the rougue planet & do not intersect our orbital plane at about a 35% angle, as Nibiru is suppoesd to.

This planet would have to be very large/dense, about the size of Neptune or Uranus. To be able to flip poles...

Though this may sound rather un-scientific, UNLESS it was VERY small & VERY-VERY dense...

The best way to spot a black hole or collapsed star, is by observing the matter it influences around it (how can a black hole emit radio waves anyway?). But *IF* it were in a matterless region of space (like beyond the asteroid belt, beyond Uranus) then there wouldn't be a way to spot it UNTIL it moved closer to any other matter.

You re-iterate my point. Minor planets have been found in our own solar system both optically and by means of detecting their gravitic influences. Larger planets have been found huge distances from our solar system, again largely by their gravitic influences. Everything you describe necessitates a large gravitic influence nearby. It would not just be detectable, it would be OBVIOUS. The distances involved are too small for such a world to NOT be found, particularly if things are to happen in four years! You're referring to a body more distant than Sedna. Sedna has a year 10500 years long! So how fast is this body moving and how far away is it NOW?

Ironic that you dismiss science in favor of pseudoscience [ie., logical fallacy plus false evidence], and claim that we're the ones who should look at the science!
 stargazer1000

Joined: 1/16/2008
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Posted: 4/9/2008 9:13:16 PM
Ooops, caught a science fact mistake on my part. I meant M87, not M81. My bad
 Greg8002

Joined: 3/11/2008
Msg: 24
2012 & astronomical facts?
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:44:35 AM
"Should this rogue planet be approaching us within the next 4 years, certainly Nasa, astronomers, amateur astronomers, and the like would most certainly be seeing it by now. Also something else to ponder : The earth is still currently in existence (humans are still thriving) and there is no known absolute 3600 year cycle to where there is drastic climate change or weather patterns or earthquakes or tsunamis or ice ages, etc."

I pretty much concur. A very large planet (of say Neptune's size or above) should have been detected already, as a number of searches have already been done for large planets in the region of Pluto and beyond. Telescopes now are extremely sensitive and can more readily pick up larger objects, even as distant as Pluto and beyond in the Kuiper belt.

I am sure if there were a large planet of Neptune's size or above on a regular orbital cycle which took it through our solar system, including close enough to Earth for tidal effects to occur, the effects would have been evident either in our geological record, or in the effects on the orbits of the planets in the inner solar system. A close encounter would have either disrupted Earth's orbit very substantially, or possibly ejected one of the bodies in the interaction out of the inner solar system. Given the prediction is that this sort of event happened within recorded history, there should be some consistent evidence of such an event occuring, yet there isn't any (at least to my knowledge), so it would seem a key prediction of the theory of a planet having close encounters with Earth every 3,600 years is readily falsified.

I think given the lack of evidence for a large planet the size of Neptune or above existing (at least one which has an orbit which regularly takes it into the inner solar system), it is rational to argue on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely such a planet does not exist and the theory is false, rather than a planet meeting these criteria exists, and the theory is true.
 Phoebus2k9

Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 25
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Posted: 4/10/2008 12:17:44 PM
HERES A lil something i did find on the net about some science behind this topic....give some feed back...i really like everyones opinion...thx






The confirmed linchpin for the fall of the late Bronze Age cultures, the Middle Eastern Civilizations, and other recorded disasters that are found to be "around that time," seems to be the period from 1644 BC to 1628 BC. The ice cores show the disturbances starting in 1644 (registering in 1645) and the tree rings show a big spike in 1628, though the entire period was disturbed.

Yoshiyuki Fujii and Okitsugu Watanabe's "Microparticle Concentration And Electrical Conductivity of A 700 m Ice Core from Mizuho Station Antarctic" published in Annals of Glaciology (1-, 1988) pp. 38-42, demonstrate that "large scale environmental changed possibly occurred in the Southern Hemisphere in the middle of the Holocene. (Within the last 10,000 years). Their depth profiles of microparticle concentration, electrical conductivity and Oxygen 18 at circa 1600 BC indicates a spike in readings for all of these elements. The evidence shows that this disturbance covered this designated period, but with a "huge spike" at c. 1600 BC

Similar evidence from the same source article exists at 5200 BC. This period shows a less severe but similar period. The oxygen 18 profile is close to normal, but there is a visible volcanic dirt band. The dating of this segment is less close because it is clear that nobody is really looking for this cycle, but it appears to correspond to the ash band from the Byrd station core.

It is conjectured that the cycle goes unnoticed because of long term aftereffects, such as cooling climate, as well as the fact that each cycle has greater or lesser effects on the earth depending on its relative position in the solar system at the time.

What is clear is that whatever comes at 3600 year intervals as shown by the ice cores, is capable of setting off prolonged periods of earth changes that are above the levels of ordinary uniformitarian geologic and climatalogical changes. But the evidence suggests that it is a shower of asteroids or coments that are NOT seen until it is TOO LATE.

In an article in Nature, November 1980, Hammer, Clausen and Dansgaard date a disturbance from the Camp Century core to 5470 BC +/- 120 years. This compares to the proposed Hekla eruption which was radiocarbon dated to 5450 BC +/- 190 years. There is an appreciably high acidity signal at these sections of the core which indicates a high level of volcanic activity - again, right at the 3600 year cycle mark.

Looking further: Michel R. Legrand and Robert J. Delmas of Laboratoire de Glaciologie et Geophysique de l'Environment published an article "Soluble Impurities in Four Antarctic Ice Cores Over the Last 30,000 Years" in Annals of Glaciology (10, 1988, pp 116-120). They graphed the Oxygen 18 variations and the ionic components Na = NH (sub4) and Ca (sup 2) and H and Cl and NO (sub 3) and SO (sub 4). The time scale for each ionic component level as well as the O (sup 18) levels stretches back 30,000 years. The graph shows correlations to spikes at 5,200 BC, 8,800 BC, 12,400 BC, c. 16,000 BC, c. 19,600 BC. All of these were times of great geologic stress.

When looking at the data and taking into account the acknowledged dating inaccuracies (some of the ranges of dates can go 100 years in either direction of the spike, even though the spiking is regular and rhythmic) for the more recent dates, and 3 to 600 years variance for the older dates - especially when one considers that these are broad analyses and nobody was really looking for anything specific - they just said "wow! look at that wavy line!" we find that the southern ice cores do not register the same as the northern ones. The 1628 BC event that really slammed the tree rings shows almost no registration in the Antarctic cores in terms of volcanic activity. But the northern cores show the activity beginning 1644 BC.

The evidence for the 5200 BC event is strong in the Dome C core. The 8,800 BC event is well marked - in fact, seems to be the strongest of them all... The Flood of Noah, no doubt! The oxygen 18 isotope variation is noticeable, the rise in sea-salt, elevated levels of C 1 and C1/Na. There is an extreme spike in SO (sub 4) and H readings suggesting widespread volcanic activity - great earth changes were happening at that time, and they registered in the climate, the oceans, and were preserved in ice.

The 12400 BC event is extremely pronounced in the cores. The graphs show a quick, vast change including the end of the Wisconsin Ice Age.(See: Evidence of Nuclear Activity in Paleoindian Times) There is a great Oxygen 18 isotope variation. Peaks of Na and very pronounced spikes in Ca, SO (sub 4) and H.

To ascribe all of these things to a "uniformitarian" idea that it just got cold and then got warm and got cold and warm... with such an evident cycle is sort of absurd. To ascribe it to a "galactic core explosion" is equally absurd. To ascribe it to "Galactic Alignment" is not worth consideration.

I think that, based on the observations of the ancients that what we are looking for is a recurring shower of comets that cycles through the solar system regularly, on a 3,600 year orbit. What is more, it seems that this body of comets, clustered together resembles a Fiery serpent with a mouthful of devouring teeth in the blackness of space. For this reason, it was given the name spdt, spdw, and spd-ibhw (sharp toothed), in the Pyramid Texts. It undoubtedly is a terrifying spectacle!

Of course, an important question is: what is the "initiator" of these showers, and did they begin in some interaction with an outside agent?"

According to scientific studies about the possibilities of our Sun having a companion, periodic comets were "bumped" into the solar system by a dark star, a "little brother" or "little sister" of our own Sun, which has a long, elliptical orbit measured, most likely, in millions of years.

If it is a companion star, present day science pretty clearly demonstrates that it must have a very long period, otherwise, we would notice it quite plainly in orbital perturbations of a certain type. In actual fact, the computer model that best fits the various dynamics is that of a 27 million year orbit. And this, of course, leads us to a considerable difficulty: the period of return of the Dark Star, as opposed to the period of disasters. Obviously, a body with a 27 million year orbit isn't likely to be remembered. However, an ancient advanced science may have certainly figured it out and it was remembered and passed down in fantastic myths and legends.

J. G. Hills of Los Alamos National Laboratory writes:

Two groups have recently suggested that the Sun may have a low-mass stellar or black dwarf companion, nemesis, with an orbital period of 26 million years )Davis, Hut, and Muller, 1984) Whitmire and Jackson, 1984). They note that the perihelion passage of Nemesis throught the inner comet cloud postulated by Hills (1981) would cause an intense comet shower to enter the inner planetary system. Some comets hit the Earth, causing severe environmental stress. They propose that these induced comet showers are responsible for the periodic extinctions suggested by the data of Raup and Sepkoski (1984).[1]

The work by these experts suggests that the observations of other binary systems demonstrate the model for the projected separation they have given. Such paired stars are "physically connected systems," and that these brown dwarfs are "burning," though non-nuclear.

The minimum mass needed to perturb the inner Oort cloud to produce such showers is, according to Hills, 0.01 percent of the Mass of the Sun.

Hills writes:

In the current paper, I use computer simulations to investigate the potential damage caused by the passage of a Nemesis-like object through the planetary system. I use these computer results and the apparent lack of damage to the planetary orbits to place limits on the number and masses of any other black dwarfs (or large planets) within the Oort cloud. [...]

We conclude from the lack of damage to the planetary orbits that it is extremely unlikely that any object more massive than 0.02 percent of the Mass of the Sun dwells in an orbit with a semimajor axis in the range 10,000 to 40,000 AU. [1]
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