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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/4/2008 12:04:44 PM | If someone was able to forgive what most would think unforgivable, could there be a biblical or otherwise religious argument AGAINST forgiveness?
Psychologically someone might say that the person is in denial or may be suffering from some other pathology, but what could be said about them in a religious context? | |
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prata
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Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 2 | |
| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/4/2008 12:21:17 PM | Not a christian, so I'm just guess. Couldn't one use the Old Testament as an argument against forgiveness? For instance, Prior to the change in society and the "turn the other cheek" mentality, problems such as wrong doings upon others were taken care of in civil agreements such as restitution. Bible speaks of eye for an eye...etc.
Once restitution was concluded, then one could forgive the party because the civil actions were all appropriately concluded.
There are almost certainly better answers than this, as I am fairly well versed in the Bible, but not a christian. Sorry. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 8:34:39 AM | If thyne eye causes thee to falter, pluck it out
And all those that are similar..
Not much forgiveness there
And worse than that... what the hell does that mean? looking at porn? women? 2 people beating the crap out of each other? Watching george bush and tony blair invading a country to steal their oil and not doing anything about it?
If people take that seriously, then everyone in the world should be blind by now. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 9:10:52 AM | I can't think of a one... I'm sure we could if we googled all sects of all Ways but the one saying I dig about forgiveness says it best for me.
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." - Buddha | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 9:22:10 AM | Op:
Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
No. In the OT forgiveness was possible:
Leviticus 4:35(NIV)
35 He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the lamb of the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven.
Some might argue that the above atonement sacrifice does not really remove sin, so forgiveness was not a complete thing, at least at that time. Some event that was to occur, the coming of the messiah, that would entirely remove sin from the individual and complete forgiveness could be achieved:
Hebrews 10:1-4 (NIV)
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
According to scripture, with the coming of jesus, complete forgiveness is possible:
Matthew 26:28 (NIV)
28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Even for those considered against god:
Romans 5:10 (NIV)
10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
jesus' sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is also backwards compatible in regard to the first covenant:
Hebrews 9:15 (NIV)
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
I doubt there's much of a biblical argument to be made against forgiveness. But when you say "religious", which religion are you referring to? Just the judaic and christian ones? Or others? | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 1:42:20 PM | | Somewhere in the new testament it says you can forgive an innocent person only up to 77 times. 77 red flags before you give up.Too funny. Let me go get my bible, I can't recall exactly where that is. Does anyone know? Maybe it;s in the old testament. Not sure. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 1:46:48 PM | | There's a scene in the movie Constantine where Constantine tricks a demon into telling him something by threatening to forgive him and send him to heaven and the demon is so horrified he tells what Constantine needs to know. Then Constantine says something like "you have to be sorry to gain forgiveness ***hole". LOL | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 2:25:26 PM | Somewhere in the new testament it says you can forgive an innocent person only up to 77 times.
I think you're referring to this:
Matthew 18:21-22 (NIV)
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times
According to this website:
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew18.htm
[22] Seventy-seven times: the Greek corresponds exactly to the LXX of Genesis 4:24. There is probably an allusion, by contrast, to the limitless vengeance of Lamech in the Genesis text. In any case, what is demanded of the disciples is limitless forgiveness.
In this case, the number seventy seven symbolizes , "always" or "without end".
According to the website that is.. but I've also been taught in the past that is indeed what it symbolizes. I've also heard "7" also represents the perfection of god, so if one wishes to be as much like god as possible, one is to forgive. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 4:01:48 PM |
If someone was able to forgive what most would think unforgivable, could there be a biblical or otherwise religious argument AGAINST forgiveness? It all depends on what you mean by forgiveness. If you forgive, in that you let go of your personal resentments against others, and you free yourself of negative feelings that only hurt you, then I cannot see any benefit against forgiving that person.
If you forgive, in that you are willing to give a second chance to someone who has repeatedly hurt you and others before, and shows no intent of changing his/her ways, to hurt you again, such as a woman who has been repeatedly beated by her boyfriend, forgives her boyfriend, and stays with him, when he shows no intent of not hitting her again, and every intent of continuing in his ways to beat her, the Bible says "Before a blind person, do not put a stumbling block" Leviticus 19:14
Psychologically someone might say that the person is in denial or may be suffering from some other pathology, but what could be said about them in a religious context? If it is the case of releasing your negative feelings, you may be said to be "doing the right thing". If you are deliberately putting yourself in harm's way, such as staying with a person who keeps beating you up, then you are sinning, and the Talmud says "no-one sins unless a spirit of craziness enters him". | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 8:16:01 PM | You've gotten some excellent answers that I enjoyed reading and agreed with. It's a complex issue that many various religious people, specifically Christians, have been wrestling with since the beginning of the church.
The new testament teachings of Jesus makes it very clear in dozens of verses that Christians are to forgive others if they want their father in heaven to forgive them as well. Obviously, it can be a very difficult teaching to hear when one has been really wronged; a victim of a crime for example. Where many people misunderstand is to confuse forgiveness with allowing a person to repeatably hurt either yourself or those you want to protect like family. Or granting a person a pardon, which implies there are no consequences for what they did, which isn't true either.
Forgiveness isn't for the other person, it's something for yourself, enabling you to recover and grow and heal from something. It's not something for the other person, it's for our own sakes, and it doesn't mean that anyone's absolved of any wrongdoing or that we're all okay with the hurts caused. Too many people now think that forgiveness = carte blanche to walk over someone else. Forgiveness is more for one's own sake to let go of the issue at hand and put it to rest in the past and move on to a better life. It's a way to find inner peace and stop the continued inner and psychological hurt of what the person(s) did to injure one so deeply.
Forgiving does not erase the bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory, but a scar always. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 8:59:08 PM | As a disclaimer, need to state I am not religious - yet was baptized/journeyed early in the Roman Catholic faith. Read some scripture, from a few versions, both from duty and curiosity.
Forgiveness, and religion, is subjective - what some believe and accept, others won't.
But that's pretty much mainstream - most of us have innate morals without having scripture telling us what is right/wrong. Your wording of "what most would think unforgivable" ... guess that depends on if it's societies 'norm' or religous 'norm' (we all know it's wrong to kill/steal/hurt - but society and religion have different justifications).
That is what it's about, I suppose, in the end - self-justification.
The irony is this: people will condemn, based on personal morals, beliefs, religion, etc, the actions of others and yet do the exact same thing they condemn against those who have violated their beliefs - it's a sin to kill, but embrace capital punishment; it's a sin to cheat, yet cheat due to a loveless marriage, and etc. I've learned that people are their own worst vice - believe they are following whatever path, and yet tailor their lifestyle, self-propagandalize to justify any actions/thoughts/beliefs/etc.
So - to forgive or not? Whatever the action done to 'forgive' - regardless of the belief, people will find rationale to support it if they have a deep connection to the other; flip side is people will find rationale to disdain/curse the other depending on interpretation/self-justification.
Humans are the craziest peoples ... | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 9:45:48 PM | If you forgive, in that you are willing to give a second chance to someone who has repeatedly hurt you and others before, and shows no intent of changing his/her ways, to hurt you again, such as a woman who has been repeatedly beated by her boyfriend, forgives her boyfriend, and stays with him, when he shows no intent of not hitting her again, and every intent of continuing in his ways to beat her, the Bible says "Before a blind person, do not put a stumbling block" Leviticus 19:14
What has this to do with forgiveness?? Nothing. That passage has NOTHING to do with forgiveness... you ASS..
Actually, you have just preached that the abuser (the blind person) should not have a stumbling block put before them.. nor the victim... no stumbling block equals more abuse of the poor spouse..
Is that how you would stop such action, by not trying to stop the abuse? I think it's time you remove your head from your rectal cavity and start to actually THINK about what you post, it's been long overdue.. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 10:09:51 PM | I think forgiveness is when all thoughts of revenge against another are gone.
And I don't think forgiveness has anything to do with the wrongdoer, it all has to do with one's own mentality.
hmmm, what would Jesus say... as I recall, it was something like, "Judge not lest ye be judged", or something like that. Cool words from a cool Guy.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/5/2008 10:16:27 PM | I think forgiveness is when all thoughts of revenge against another are gone.
I suppose, so can you show how scorpiomover's example shows this ??
And I don't think forgiveness has anything to do with the wrongdoer, it all has to do with one's own mentality.
Without a wrongdoer, there is no reason for forgiveness in the first place, or don't you see that??? Or are you advocating forgiveness no matter what? Should a rape victim "just forgive"...should the families of a murder victim "just forgive" ??? What if someone treated YOU like an animal,, rape, servitude, humiliation.. could YOU do what you instruct others to do? I don't think so. So far you'll just recline on your ass and offer judgments about things you have no idea about.. work for a government do you? ... it shows.. by your thinking..
What would Jesus say... as I recall, it was something like, "Judge not lest ye be judged", or something like that. Cool words from a cool Guy.
Very nice, so explain how it applies here, or unless you just like to pontificate...
You obviously miss the point that without judging, there can be no sin or wrongdoing, hence no forgiveness for those sins or wrongdoings... | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/6/2008 12:58:33 AM |
I suppose, so can you show how scorpiomover's example shows this ??
hmmm, I think I've had the misfortune of having my post placed near his....I was not, in any way, trying to prove his point,
So far you'll just recline on your ass and offer judgments about things you have no idea about.. work for a government do you? ... it shows.. by your thinking..
wrong again. My point is that whether I forgive someone or not, my forgiveness matters not one whit to the other if he/she does not know or want or accept. My point is that I will know and I can spend my time on more meaningful things. You are talking about accountability, something I most definitely do believe in.
Very nice, so explain how it applies here, or unless you just like to pontificate...
You obviously miss the point that without judging, there can be no sin or wrongdoing, hence no forgiveness for those sins or wrongdoings... dufuss..
No, I believe verily that thou hast missed the point.
Judging is a fearful man's game, one I see that you love to play with bullying and name calling.
I forgive you, oh I crack myself up. Cheers to you, Raven | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/6/2008 1:38:46 AM | From the Catholic perspective, forgiveness from God for sins is possible for any sin, no matter how grave, provided you sincerely confess it to anyone with the faculty for hearing confessions, are genuinely repentant for the wrong done, make an act of contrition or sorrow over your sin, and once absolved of the guilt incurred by the sin, you make amends for the sin through penance.
Personally I think forgiveness from God won't occur ultimately unless you try to forgive others; I am pretty sure the parable of the ungrateful servant on the NT is a good example of the self-righteous and their fate before God. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/6/2008 8:54:24 AM | "an eye for a eye" is ludicrous! i mean:
if someone commits murder he must be killed (well death penatly presumably)
if someone steals he must have his assets seised (what if he has nothing?????)
if someone rapes, commits child abuse etc he must therefore also be abused and raped (by a man? but what if he likes the man and is homosexual??? what if a women commits crimes like this?)
plus this could go on for ever if you think about it!
Person is executed for murder but by whom, an executioner. But he has now murdered someone so he too must be exectuted becasue eye for an eye means the victim must pay back the criminal....but the victim is dead so he cant! the same principle would apply with any situation if you think about it. A girl is raped but she cant rape him back really so someone else must do it but then they've raped so they must suffer too.....ad infinite
well if we followed this literally there would of course be one logical outcome:
WE'D ALL DIE!!!!! | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/6/2008 9:55:57 AM | Forgiveness is the way we release ouselves from hate and resentment (it doesn't necessarily have much to do with the other party)...which are toxic to the psyche (soul). Resentment and hate are what drives destructive attitudes and destructive behavior. You could not hurt someone if you didn't feel some sort of negative emotion towards them, and therefore felt justified. Forgiveness frequently requires understanding and compassion..it requires unchaining oneself from the other. It also requires that we remove ourselves from the belief that we are "victims". From the Christian example.. umm... Jesus forgave even his executioners and accusers, and he was innocent of what he was accused of. THAT is the real spirit of the law...in action. So, for me, that example alone is the main lesson, Jesus was trying to show us a way of living that did not include hate.. that emphasized humility and compassion. (seventy times seven is the rule I believe)There is NO humility in hate and resentment, because both positions require that one feels ABOVE another on some level... and looking for loopholes is dishonest and would point to me a legalistic mindset (which is where the problem of sin lies) trying to find a reason to hate. Or at least justification.
Just my impression of what the Bible has to say on this issue.
Peace | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/6/2008 11:12:46 AM |
scorpionmover said: If you forgive, in that you are willing to give a second chance to someone who has repeatedly hurt you and others before, and shows no intent of changing his/her ways, to hurt you again, such as a woman who has been repeatedly beated by her boyfriend, forgives her boyfriend, and stays with him, when he shows no intent of not hitting her again, and every intent of continuing in his ways to beat her, the Bible says "Before a blind person, do not put a stumbling block" Leviticus 19:14
If you are deliberately putting yourself in harm's way, such as staying with a person who keeps beating you up, then you are sinning WOW sm! Way to blame the victim of the abuse! You come across as intelligent, but sometimes you say the most stupid and ignorant things it makes me wonder if it's lacking common sense and book smarts only!
Would you have a sexually abused teenage girl responsible for her step-father's actions because she stays when her reason for staying is because if she leaves she knows he will rape her younger sister? How about the woman who is married to an alcoholic who beats her and doesn't flee because she is afraid he will beat the children instead? Or how about anyone who stays because they are too afraid to leave?
If people like you understood the context and psychology of the victim they wouldn't be so quick to blame them for staying there and taking it again and again. A person (child, male, female, elderly) being abused (sexual, physical, emotional, psychological) who stays hasn't reached a place where they are able to break the cycle or the chains that bind them to the abuser. THAT is why they stay. The abuse isn't something they crave or need, but it is part of what they have settled for and can live with. Someone once told me that it's a "known" and better than the "unknown" of leaving.
stillwatersaredeep: The new testament teachings of Jesus makes it very clear in dozens of verses that Christians are to forgive others if they want their father in heaven to forgive them as well. Well said. "If you do not forgive others, then your Father in Heaven will not forgive you." is about as plain speaking as it gets. Clearly, this is "do unto others" taken to a whole new level. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:02:58 PM | | Forgiveness is an act of grace. Acts of grace are only effective when the other person receives it in the right spirit. Yes, we should forgive up to a point but we are also expected to defend ourselves when needed. In one place Jesus said if you don't have a sword go buy one. That implies there is a place where forgiveness ends and battle begins. Another place Jesus said if a bad guy breaks into a home, the strong man of the house will deal violently with him. Turning the other cheek does not mean the bad guy killed your son so now give him your daughter. It's not time to forgive someone when they are trying to attack you, your family, or your country. Another verse says there is a time for peace and there is a time for war. Another says those who live by the sword should die by the sword. There is a big difference between living by the sword (ie Hitler) and defending yourself by using a sword as Jesus said. God's capacity to forgive is infinitely greater than our own and even He did not forgive king Herod, who was smitten by the angel of the Lord and was eaten by worms in Acts 12:23 or Ananias and Saphira who were struck dead in Acts 5. And Jesus himself did not forgive the money changers in the temple. He got a whip and chased them all out and broke up their money changing tables. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/7/2008 7:37:37 PM | To romanticoptimist and A Fortiori:
When BOTH of you have been to a psychologist, or a counsellor with over 20 years of experience, and sat down and started telling him/her your life story, and just given the basic details, before you've even covered what's happened to you by age 18, he/she starts saying "That's a LOT", and just keeps repeating it, and is amazed that you are as normal as you are, even with all your problems, and that happens with 7 psychologists/counsellors, all with similar levels of experience, THEN you can start telling me about abuse. Till then, listen to someone who's been through a lot more than most people would ever wish on a child abuser.
Most people in chronic abuse blame themselves for the abuse. Even if they are convinced that it was not their fault, they secretly blame themselves ANYWAY. Even if they have the opportunity to walk away, they still fear that the abuser will come after them and find them. Even if they escape the abuse, they want to return to it, because they are continually waiting for someone else to do the same thing, and they are so conditioned to accept abuse, that they don't have a mental process that allows them to reject it, and so at least in returning to the abuser, it is something they know how to deal with. They are conditioned to not be able to handle a situation of non-abuse. It takes a tremendous act of will, and a continued perseverance in that will, and lots of regular support and encouragement, to stay away from that abuse.
I should know. I had to keep having people tell me to stay away from the people who caused me problems, again and again and again. Even though I told those people that I would kill myself in 6 months if I returned, I still kept having pangs of guilt and fear of a life of freedom, and though it has lessened, it is still there.
Abused people need to be pushed to keep away from their abusers, or they will keep returning, because it is in the nature of chronic abuse, for the abused person to forgive their abusers, every single time.
I guess you don't have a clue on the mentality of abused people, and you certainly haven't read that many of my posts, because I've posted about some of my circumstances all over the place. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/7/2008 9:56:48 PM | Posted by romanticoptimist
Would you have a sexually abused teenage girl responsible for her step-father's actions because she stays when her reason for staying is because if she leaves she knows he will rape her younger sister? How about the woman who is married to an alcoholic who beats her and doesn't flee because she is afraid he will beat the children instead? Or how about anyone who stays because they are too afraid to leave?
So you're justifying why the abused should stay in the situation? Victims for a myriad of reasons do not believe they have the inherent right to be safe from physical harm. A faulty sense of moral obligation, a feeling that they are not being forgiving enough, that they will be sinning if they call the police for protection etc. are often the reasons that victims are too afraid to either report or escape the abuse.
If people like you understood the context and psychology of the victim they wouldn't be so quick to blame them for staying there and taking it again and again. A person (child, male, female, elderly) being abused (sexual, physical, emotional, psychological) who stays hasn't reached a place where they are able to break the cycle or the chains that bind them to the abuser.
What you don't seem to understand is that many victims don't feel they have the "permission" to leave, often because the abuser has told them so. Their self-worth has been beaten down to such a degree that they will never break the cycle unless they get a strong sense from an external source that it is ok break free. Imo, Scorpiomover makes a valid point of the necessity to do so from a scriptural perspective.
Posted by A Fortiori
Without a wrongdoer, there is no reason for forgiveness in the first place, or don't you see that??? Or are you advocating forgiveness no matter what? Should a rape victim "just forgive"...should the families of a murder victim "just forgive" ??? What if someone treated YOU like an animal,, rape, servitude, humiliation.. could YOU do what you instruct others to do?
Unforgiveness has some very dire consequences. First off, it causes the victim to relive the emotional torment of the abuse over and over again. It sets the victim up to develop a "victim mentality" which has a tendency to attract abusers making the abuse a lifelong pattern. Unforgiveness also has a tendency to pull victims into becoming abusers, which is often the case where sexual molestation has been experienced.
Forgiving another for harm done sets the victim free. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/7/2008 10:46:46 PM | Scorpiomover: I agree with much of what you're saying about the emotional cycles behind people who are chronically abused and stay in those relationships. I do think however that what people are basing many of their comments on has been some of your wording, which does sound like victim blaming and you even likened it to a sin on their part here:
If you forgive, in that you are willing to give a second chance to someone who has repeatedly hurt you and others before, and shows no intent of changing his/her ways, to hurt you again, such as a woman who has been repeatedly beated by her boyfriend, forgives her boyfriend, and stays with him, when he shows no intent of not hitting her again, and every intent of continuing in his ways to beat her, the Bible says "Before a blind person, do not put a stumbling block" Leviticus 19:14
if you are deliberately putting yourself in harm's way, such as staying with a person who keeps beating you up, then you are sinning
I have a very difficult time with the thought that God would consider a confused and wounded person a sinner because they didn't have the emotional or spiritual resources to find freedom from abuse. Would God consider a sick person a sinner because of cancer? A mentally ill person a sinner because they had brain chemicals that were different? Sin is a very deliberate and conscious act, and victims of abuse aren't deliberately acting in "sin" rather they are under the siege from an enemy who seems stronger than they are.
I think it's a partly an interpretation problem. Am I wrong that you liken forgiveness with being a doormat or allowing another to continue to do us or our loved ones harm? True forgiveness is not about that, but that's what I'm getting from reading this thread, however, please correct any incorrect assumptions that I have.
I'm also not sure if it's fair for anyone to assume that another has not known as much pain in their life just because they have a different outlook on forgiveness or anything else. Many people don't talk or share their past experiences, so to state that one doesn't "have a clue about the mentality of abused people" is really unfair. I'm personally one of the largest proponents of forgiveness you'll ever find, but it's not because I haven't been in situations to where grievous harm wasn't done, as you've suggested to others upwards in this thread. I'm such a believer in forgiveness because I had something huge and painful to forgive and couldn't find peace until I did so, nor could I find freedom for I discovered that I was still in the chains of what had been done. | |
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| Could there be a religious or biblical argument against forgiveness?
Posted: 4/8/2008 8:21:55 AM |
I have a very difficult time with the thought that God would consider a confused and wounded person a sinner because they didn't have the emotional or spiritual resources to find freedom from abuse. The Bible says that G-d goes after those who attack the helpless. So G-d doesn't consider a person a sinner because they are in a difficult situation at all. But that person is going to make life hard for everyone who knows her, unless she gets herself to do what she needs to. The 2 principles are not in contradiction, because they are 2 principles of law and life, not 2 different situations. The Bible isn't a book that tells you what to do when. The Bible is a book that tells you what to think about.
Would God consider a sick person a sinner because of cancer? Not at all. Quite the reverse. But would that give the cancer sufferer the right to take every little thing out on his family, friends and even doctors? 'Cause a lot of cancer sufferers do.
A mentally ill person a sinner because they had brain chemicals that were different? Not at all. Quite the reverse. But if a mentally ill person uses his illness as an excuse to take unfair liberties when he knows he could control himself, and abuses his family when he is fully in control, is that in any way at all OK? Because that's something that many mentally ill people do as well.
Sin is a very deliberate and conscious act, and victims of abuse aren't deliberately acting in "sin" rather they are under the siege from an enemy who seems stronger than they are. There are several forms of sin mentioned in the Bible, and only ONE type of sin is the one you are describing. There is also Cheit, which is translated from the Hebrew as "missing the mark", or being negligent enough in one's efforts to screw up unintentionally. Then there is the Asham, or "guilt", where it is a sin that you don unintentionally, as a result of so many past mistakes, like the guy who fights other people, and one day fights his best friend, who has a weak heart, and kills him. He kills him unintentionally, but if he hadn't been so into fighting other people, who also could have a heart condition, and that he didn't care about them, he wouldn't have fought his friend and killed him. The word "Sin", or "Aveirah", just means "crossing the line". The Bible isn't a set of arbitrary rules. It's a set of logical rules, about how people need to act, in order to live together as a productive society. Some of that is obvious to us, and some isn't obvious to us.
I think it's a partly an interpretation problem. Am I wrong that you liken forgiveness with being a doormat or allowing another to continue to do us or our loved ones harm? True forgiveness is not about that, but that's what I'm getting from reading this thread, however, please correct any incorrect assumptions that I have. I believe that forgiveness is about letting go of negative emotions, and purposeless grudges. But I've often heard it described that forgiveness is about forgetting what happened in the past, and acting as if the other person has never done anything to hurt you or others in the first place. I am trying to make it clear that the Bible seems to reject that interpretation of forgiveness.
I'm also not sure if it's fair for anyone to assume that another has not known as much pain in their life just because they have a different outlook on forgiveness or anything else. Many people don't talk or share their past experiences, so to state that one doesn't "have a clue about the mentality of abused people" is really unfair. If others have experienced enough to understand that mentality, I have no problem with that. But the way my opinion was dismissed, implied that I didn't have any such experience, when I had plenty of it.
I'm personally one of the largest proponents of forgiveness you'll ever find, but it's not because I haven't been in situations to where grievous harm wasn't done, as you've suggested to others upwards in this thread. I'm such a believer in forgiveness because I had something huge and painful to forgive and couldn't find peace until I did so, nor could I find freedom for I discovered that I was still in the chains of what had been done. This is how I think about forgiveness NOW, because this is how my sister described it to me, and it finally made sense. But before then, people were telling me that forgiveness meant giving the abuser another chance, again and again and again.
There are at least TWO interpretations of forgiveness, and one doesn't make sense. | |
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