| Olympic Torch Relay - Tibet & China Row - Should a sporting event be used for such a protest............?
Posted: 4/6/2008 4:07:50 AM | I'm watching the tv and the Olympic Torch's progress around the boroughs, what are your thoughts on Tibet and the China row..................?
The police have 31 miles of the torch's journey to cover and at the moment it seems that every handover stop is being used by the supporters of Tibet to cause a disruption of some sort.................
No, I am not an expert on the politics of this situation, so I am just asking......."Should a sporting event be used for such a protest............?"
Your views please............................. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 4:55:59 AM | I'm not very politically minded, but with everything going on in Tibet and China.
I think maybe they should never have been given the Games, and i think if I lived in
London, well i may have stood up to be counted, with those against the Olympics.
I like to think i'd back any boycott.
But if i was an athelete, who may have been training, 6 or 7 days a week, since i was
maybe only 10 or 12 years old. I'm not so sure i'd be willing to give up everything i'd worked for.
Is it right that sportsmen are being asked to send a message to the world about how badly China treats its people, when our politicians take holidays in China, "to promote British interests".
Our top FTSE companies are fighting to get trade with China, and nobody expects them to pull out.
Let's not blame just the politicians,..........how many of us when we go to the shops refuse to buy something if we think it's a bargain.
I've bought trainers and cheap tee-shirts in Asda, i never thought for a moment about the slave labour that made them.
Does that mean, that it is partly my fault that there are unjust practises happening in China.
There was a suggestion on Andrew Marr this morning, not just these games, but all future ones should be canceled. ..........The politics have taken over from the sport. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 8:03:21 AM | Its the only chance these protestors get to highlight the wrong doings in Tibet. Outside press agencies dont get in to report anything such is the rule there.
Fair play to them. China, do us all a favour and get out of Tibet, your own country is in a bad enough state without causing the ruination of another. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:13:17 AM | Firstly...............I'm shocked by the lack of response from the "debating society" here on POF.................
There would appear to be no supporters for or against Tibet or China...............
Is this because it's not in our back yard?
Communist China has ruled Tibet since 1951, after sending in troops to "liberate" the Buddhist region the previous year, and insists it is part of China despite Tibetan calls for independence.
Or because we don't understand?.....................
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:22:48 AM | | Ok here you go redee, the atrocities carried out in Tibet are asolutely abhorrent, I wherever possible boycott goods made in China, (buying British as often as possible both for the good of our economy and for environmental reasons). If you live near where the Torch is passing through get yourselves down there and protest alongside the Tibettan supporters. If folks don't like what the Chinese are doing hit 'em where it hurts, boycott their products, may cost your wallet more, but what price do you put on your principles and conscience? | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:35:00 AM | @ 5 - Cats
Ok here you go redee, the atrocities carried out in Tibet are asolutely abhorrent, I wherever possible boycott goods made in China, (buying British as often as possible both for the good of our economy and for environmental reasons. If you live near where the Torch is passing through get yourselves down there and protest alongside the Tibettan supporters. If folks don't like what the Chinese are doing hit 'em where it hurts, boycott their products, may cost your wallet more, but what price do you put on your principles and conscience?
Cats - I quite agree with you............this concerns Human Rights.........big style, and yet the world sits by and pays lip service to China...............I wish it had passed near where I live...................
@ 6 - Social justice
you would have thought a country that bemoans the horrific World War II atrocities visited on it by Japan, would think twice before occupying another country.
Yeap............now the abused are the abusers................sadder still, we just sit and watch............. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:45:50 AM |
Firstly...............I'm shocked by the lack of response from the "debating society" here on POF.
Ah, fair dos Redee, don't be too hard on us, there were a lot of POF meets last night so probably a few sore heads today.
I was watching the flames journey this afternoon (I'd crept back to bed for a little nap) and found myself thinking about the whys and wherefores of this, I'm not sure I've fully decided what I think, so here are my ramblings.
On the one hand The China Tibet situation isn't a new thing, so IMO the IOC were in the wrong when they awarded the games to Beijing in the first place. Then again, the Games were in Moscow in 1980, when USSR didn't exactly have a great human rights record either (and had invaded Afghanistan in 1979). There were widespeads boycotts of these games as a result and apparently, some countries competed under the olympic flag as a mark of their protests.
I believe in standing up for what you think is right, on that call, I'm glad to see that there were protests against China in London today. However, I don't believe that intimidating and scaring the torchbearers, some of whom were ordinary people (in an extraordinary sort of way) does anything to further the cause of Tibet nor will it shame China in any way shape or form, on that call, silent, non-aggressive protest would have been far more appropriate, the protests were in favour of restoring the Buddhist order to Tibet after all.
It saddened me greatly to see the one white track suit of the torchbearer surrounded by a thick security cordon of yellow jacketed police, it saddened me more to see the bearer and the Olympic torch under attack, neither are representing China, they are there representing the spirit of the games.
The games will be held in Beijing, there may well be boycotts, I think, to a certain extent, those boycotts should be lead by the athletes concerned. I would like to think that politics could be kept out of the Games, unfortunately, this is the real world and national identity is too far entangled to allow that to happen. In the meantime, protests should be peaceful and non threatening. It won't change things but it does register feelings against China.
Ramble over, thank you for listening.
Free Tibet. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:58:14 AM |
......."Should a sporting event be used for such a protest............?"
Protesting at sporting events has been popular for many years because of the publicity it affords. Think back to the Suffragettes throwing themselves under horses at racing events. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 11:13:07 AM | @ 9 - Hula
Ah, fair dos Redee, don't be too hard on us, there were a lot of POF meets last night so probably a few sore heads today.
Sorry........... I should have known............after all I didn't get to bed myself until 3.30 am....................
However, I don't believe that intimidating and scaring the torchbearers, some of whom were ordinary people (in an extraordinary sort of way) does anything to further the cause of Tibet nor will it shame China in any way shape or form, on that call, silent, non-aggressive protest would have been far more appropriate, the protests were in favour of restoring the Buddhist order to Tibet after all.
I quite agreed with you..............this part of the protest, must have been horrific for the torchbearers............I'm sure when they agreed to carry the torch........coming under attack was the last thing on their mind................Like you Hula...........I would have have been more impressed with a silent non-threatening protest.........(Buddhism, isn't that about peace, love and non violence).
It saddened me greatly to see the one white track suit of the torchbearer surrounded by a thick security cordon of yellow jacketed police
At some stages I thought the police were, either running their own training sessions and expected them to burst into some American Army chant.......or were doing the marathon again...................it was sad that the Torch and bearer were blocked from the public for the most part...........
they are there representing the spirit of the games.
Which is what has really been overshadowed today................(you speak a lot of sense for a few moments of rambling...............good on yer Hula) | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 3:08:40 PM |
It saddened me greatly to see the one white track suit of the torchbearer surrounded by a thick security cordon of yellow jacketed police {/quote] I'm sure those coppers were glad of a bit of over time after the government shafted them on their pay rise. The coverage on the News At Ten was great, lots of footage of protestors, great publicity for the cause. non-aggressive protest would have been far more appropriate The only aggression that I saw was coming from those who 'rugby tackled' the protestors. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/6/2008 3:29:50 PM | Its dissapointing that certain celebrities have chosen to carry the torch for the olympics and the Chinese, arguments that politics should stay out of the olympics is frankly just convenient tosh.
Although when you look at the celebrities -most of them are on their way out and I guess that beggers can't be choosers when it comes to appearance fees.
Apparently the only people who suffer from these protests are the athletes who have trained their entire lives for this four yearly taxation moneypit and may be affected by the added attention. All I can say to them is that consider yourselves lucky that you live in a country that lets you choose your lifestyle. This certainly isn't the case in China or Tibet.
Still in this "change to the other channel" world we now live in I dont imagine mine is a popular view. But I would like people to consider to" buy Chinese last" as a personal protest.
I would like to know what the cost of the operation was to guard a torch, who pays for it or indeed if any of the police involved felt that they should have been doing a proper job rather than the crowd stewards role they all did today. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 9:29:56 AM | The only aggression that I saw was directed by the security forces against demonstrators.
Reminded me of the images from Tibet......
The procession is a publicity stunt by the Chinese - it is not designed to enhance the Olympic Games in any way. If it were, then why were the security forces comprised of Chinese? Can we no longer provide our own?
And why was the Chinese Ambassador (who can hardly speak a word of English) involved, and why did it parade in Chinatown, WC2?
The IOC is largely to blame for the present fiasco. It awarded China the Olympics in the hope that it might clean up its act, and it reminded me of the various acts of Appeasement in the 1930s to the dictators of Europe (1933 Olympics, and 1934 World Cup) - both of which failed.
Should a sporting contest be the target of a political demonstration? Yes, if the sporting contest was awarded on a political basis.
I was hugely disappointed to see our athletes being used in this way. Sir Steve, Paula, and the rest have shown their Olympic credentials in the past by performing within the rules and in accordance with the Olympic spirit. They did themselves no favours by carrying that torch.
VVVVV A Communist state to allow unfettered access to a device designed for freedom of expression? Yes, and my bacon flew from Denmark completed unaided...... | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 9:35:29 AM | Slightly off topic but, one good thing appears to have come out of the olympics going to China, I heard on the news last night that one of the conditions laid down by the IOC was that The Great Firewall of China, that filters internet content, must come down to allow journalists to use the internet during the games. Now, it might only turn out to be temporary but it's a good start.
Agree? Or not? | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 9:43:42 AM | To answer the original question -
Yes, this event should be used to try to change Chinese attitudes to human rights.
Here we have a perfect oportunity. If EVERY country got together and said they were going to boycott the Games unless there was an improvement, and China was faced with having spent a fortune on games that nobody was attending, I think they might rethink their policies.
Our Government constantly talks tough on human rights and foreign dictators etc etc but they rarely act ( unless there is oil involved ) and they wont act on China either. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 10:37:29 AM | I do not think that these people should be protesting at the Olympic torch. These games were allocated to china a while ago by the Olympic committee, it is their decision that should be criticised. This is the only chance many athletes will have to compete on the big stage so to speak.
What is going to happen in 2012 when the torch comes here, are we going to get Muslims and alike protesting about the atrocities being carried out in their fellow countries. Don’t forget 1 mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
It would be naive and foolish to think you do not buy anything that comes from china. I know anyone on here saying this is full of sh!t because the computers that you are using to access this web site...the components were mostly made in china. I don’t know of any electrical items now that don’t contain parts made in china. You may be 'buying British' but it probably aint.
This is just one of these political 'flying picket' situations, if you really were serious you would be at the docks stopping all the tonnes of goods being unloaded destined for our shops and raw materials being loaded destined for China. This is just a cheap shot at publicity which could so easily reduce sympathy for Tibet. No one thanked the Arabs when they blew up the Israeli team. Ever Olympics has been scared by political hijackers. Time it stopped. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 11:49:29 AM | Any chance to show a public display will be taken by those who wish to take it, Doesnt matter where or why aslong as they know theres going to be news coverage they'll be there.
We hardly hear about half of the things that go on in this world, were pretty ignorant of it unless its there in the media, theres stuff going on in africa right now which has no news coverage at all but thousands are dying, refugee camps are being raided, people raped and murdered and do we know about it? course not.. it's not a valid story .. until comic relief rears its head and THEN we'll know all about it.
Too late though.
If people really did care about the things they protest about just like andy above said they'd be out doing something about it, and then you'd be branded a terrorist because your trying to upset the apple cart your not conforming to the mainstream and our "free world" governement doesnt like that one bit.
We are no better than the so called terrorist regimes, were just as bad as they are, we kill just as many people we cause just as many atroceties but we have that lovely blanket of society to cover ourselves up with and we have millions and millions of scapegoats to place the blame on when things go wrong, when stuff leaks out.. could be me.. could be you.
On a humane scale if people are being exploited in china then someone in china should do something about it take a leaf out of the russian/french book of revolution.. you want something to change? you go out and you f'ing change it yourself and if it really matters.. really really matters other's will follow, a load of people complaining in another country isnt going to make a dent or a difference, the blind eye will be turned and it'll all be forgotten in the mainstream soon enough. Someone will blow something else up and we'll be focused on that instead.
I don't know, but it's been said,
"You do or don't, and then you're dead."
So climb I will,
Or crawl or run,
Never stray just move ahead. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:01:34 PM | | I think it's great that there are public protests at the torch procession which was itself a publicity stunt introduced by Hitler back in the 30s. So they're not really interupting the games just making a political protest at a political event | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 2:20:07 PM |
would be naive and foolish to think you do not buy anything that comes from china. I know anyone on here saying this is full of sh!t because the computers that you are using to access this web site...the components were mostly made in china. I don’t know of any electrical items now that don’t contain parts made in china. You may be 'buying British' but it probably aint.
Is China the only country in the world that manufactures computer and electronic components? I think not.
No one thanked the Arabs when they blew up the Israeli team.
Hardly a fair comparison, disrupting a public event through protesting is a world away from a bombing.
Looking at the news today, it seems that what happened was actually 'a very British protest,' action was a lot more violent to (in Paris? missed that bit) where the torch was mobbed and had to be put out three times.
Vive la France! | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:48:29 PM |
Is China the only country in the world that manufactures computer and electronic components? I think not.
No…but think you missed the point…although every computer is not made in china, every computer has components that are made in china. Buying British is a myth in that context, if you wanted to protest against china and chinese goods you wouldnt be on the computer you are on...in fact any computer.
Protesting, how often we see peaceful protesting move into violence, Atlanta Games in 1996 were marred by a bomb explosion also…really, we don’t see many people protesting about …
Democratic Republic of Congo, with a war that claimed more than 3 million lives, with women on the front line. Rapes that are so brutal and systematic that UN investigators have called them unprecedented. Had 6 representatives in the 2004 Olympic Games.
Sudan, the plight of those in Darfur, in western Sudan, has worsened. Abduction, rape or forced displacement, have destroyed more than 1 million women's lives since 2003. They had 5 representatives in the 2004 Olympics
Sierra leone Africa's most brutal war has taken life and limb, literally, from thousands of children has sent athletes to almost every Olympic games including 2 in the 2004 games.
Even Mali, one of the world's poorest countries, where few women escape the torture of genital mutilation, are forced into early marriages, and where one in 10 dies in pregnancy or childbirth. Had 4 representatives in the 2004 games with a football team that got to the quarter finals.
and i havn't even started with the koreans or Saudia Arabian's
Sorry but these are just a few of the countries that are considered by amnesty international and alike with horrendous human rights records that will be welcomed without a by-your-leave into the Olympic Games. Don’t see anyone banging drums against them. Seems to me people are like sheep and follow good causes because they get pats on the back by fellow sheep. Tell you what lets just scrap the whole thing and put on extended highlights of eastenders instead.
Didn’t see anyone kicking off 7 years ago when China was awarded the Olympics or other years they attended the games along with all the other hot favorites…now as usual only athletes and their families will suffer…why because of narrow minded sheep with campaign of the month opinions.
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/8/2008 2:15:18 AM | if you wanted to protest about China and Chinese goods you wouldn't be on the computer you are on........in fact any computer.
read what I said
I wherever possible boycott goods made in China,
I buy local products whenever I can, but I don't know of any computer manufacturers in the Lake District! I'm all for clearer labeling of products stating their country of origin, this could help those who wish their hard earned cash to be spent in a more ethical manner.
Didn’t see anyone kicking off 7 years ago when China was awarded the Olympics
I wasn't on the PoF forums 7 years ago, so couldn't say f there was anyone kicking off, I'm sure there were comments in the media at the time though. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/8/2008 3:17:08 AM |
I wherever possible boycott goods made in China
I did read, but you are missing my point…So its ok that people are being tortured but I need my computer lol…unless it doesn’t serve your life style then I can protest.
The computer your using is made by parts made in China, the keyboard your happily punching away on was made by parts made in China, the TV you watch to get all worked up over China was made by parts made in China, the batteries used in the remote to turn the TV over were all made in china, even my Ikea batteries reputed to be a promoter of ethical products are made in the republic of China. Even your theoretical computer made in the Lake District would yes again be made with products made in China.
We’re all happy to compete with athletes from countries with horrendous and even worse human rights but little if nothing is said about those. Not just talking about this Olympics but every Olympics.
You didn’t have to be on pof 7yrs ago to voice you’re protesting, the fact that there was very little anywhere says it all about the sheep protesting at the Olympics now, a few Tibetans on the streets waving their banners 7yrs ago showed me that. I have more support for those people who support a cause from the start to the bitter end than what I see now with’ protestors of the month’ supporters with no real intention of helping the plight of the Tibetans. If people really felt this way they would boycott all Chinese goods, and there wouldn’t be an Olympics as a good proportion of the 200+ countries involved have bad human rights records and your ethics would prevent you from competing. It even goes back to 1908, when Irish athletes boycotted the London Olympics because of the British human rights failings at the time in Ireland.
This reminds me of excuses that politicians use to invade places like Iraq and Afghanistan. They say its all for human rights but we all know the real reason. Protesting at china is similar because if you were truly against human rights atrocities you would be banging your drums over all the other countries competing. Are you being herded around again like sheep by American lobbyists who would like to see the end of Chinese exports which are ruining the American economy.
If you are going to protest at the Olympics which is wrong as it should be a symbol of fair competition between nations and nothing to do with the country that hosts it, then protest against everybody. As someone once said he who is with out sin cast the first stone. We are being caught up in Americas Extraordinary rendition fiasco, where Europe is helping America torture people in countries known to have poor human rights...because we don't want to dirty our hands. Seems a bit two faces of us to use countries like China when it suits us ‘wherever possible’, but not so when is upsets our life style. | |
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| Olympic Torch Relay....................in a borough near you.......
Posted: 4/8/2008 4:34:22 AM |
I do not think that these people should be protesting at the Olympic torch. These games were allocated to china a while ago by the Olympic committee, it is their decision that should be criticised. This is the only chance many athletes will have to compete on the big stage so to speak.
You are missing the point somewhat. Part of the "deal" for China getting the games was that they improve their human rights record. Moreover it isn't the games being interupted or even a boycott called for against the games.
The protests are being held as a way of highlighting China's failure to improve their human rights record. The torch procession is not an Olympic competition and was in fact started in 30's by Hitler at the Munich Olympics. So really it is a political event and therefore I believe it perfectly legitimate to hold peaceful protests at a political event. | |
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