| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 1:58:51 AM | It has been said that the more educated a person is the less they believe in god. However this isn't always the case. Some very well educated people believe in god. I am definitely not a well educated or even a well read person but can see the importance of believing something that doesn't require faith or 'blind faith'.
So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:29:58 AM | Well, first you would have to define "god" because almost everyone has a different definition of that concept alone.... but that is a totally different discussion, and not one I wish to get into.... enough wars have been fought on that issue. Also... what is proof for one person may not be sufficient for another.... it is not "blind faith" for me... there is enough proof for me, in my life .... and at the end of the day, that is all that really matters.
What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists? What led me to believe was some very tough times.... I would have $20 left, and no food on the table for myself and my 3 children, and $50 that I had forgotten someone owed me or whatever would come in. I had no money for rent, and none in sight, and I got a temporary, 2- week contract that paid the rent for that month. Then, the real clincher was when my 4 yr. old daughter got menningitis. I phoned my mother from the ambulance bay to ask her to tap into her prayer line, because the doctors did not believe her grandchild was going to make it, as she was in a Level 1 coma, showing no signs of coming out. She was in the ambulance to Sick Children's Hospital, the Dr., nurse and paramedic from the small rural hospital were in the back with her, and I was riding in the front. We were about 20 minutes down the road when the doctor tapped me on the shoulder from the back and said he did not know what happened, but my daughter had just woken up, fully alert, asked where she was, and where was mom? They pointed to me, she looked right at me, and went back to sleep. By the time we got to Sick Kids, the emergency doctors there could not figure out why she had been rushed there, as she was totally fine. To this day, she has had zero side effects from the menningitis.... which is usually a killer disease.... and the doctors are totally baffled.
Is that proof enough for me?... in a heartbeat!
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 5:48:38 AM |
So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists?
It isn't about "blind" faith but a willingness to believe which turns into a faith as verification that is personal to the believer starts to be seen.
Even more important then faith is surrender. The educated and the rich usually see themselves as having more options to try out before they surrender and start to pray for an intervention. When that intervention happens, the educated have a greater tendency to rationalize it or put it down to luck or coincidence. At least thats how it was for me.
I surrendered almost 15 years ago when drugs and alcohol were leading me to an early grave and God did for me what I couldn't do for myself. However it still happens that there are areas of my life today that I try to control myself leading me to a lot of frustration and banging head against the wall. Invariably when I surrender the problem to God, the issue gets resolved. | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 5:56:13 AM | The assumptions in this thread remind me of a Philosophy class I was in some 25 years ago. My lab partner was a really intelligent woman and was challenged by the Philosophy class. Because of my background and interest in Philosophy I was able to help her with some of the assignments. We became good study friends. She often remarked about how intelligent I was (I thought she was too, really bright and agile mind). One day we came to the subject of belief in God in class. During the discussion she asked the professor how was it possible for an intelligent person to believe in God, to have faith in something not empirically verifiable. I told her that I believed in God and I was intelligent. That was the start of an ongoing conversation that lasted the rest of the year. She struggled with two contradictory "truths", that I was intelligent and educated and believed in God, and that she believed that it was impossible to be so. I don't know if she resolved the conflict, but I do know that it was the assumption on her part that created it.
It has been said that the more educated a person is the less they believe in god. Quote and source, please. Said by whom? When? On what authority? It sounds like a typical "We're smarter than them!" comment such as you might get when one group or person is comparing themselves to another in order to feel better about themselves. In other words, it's worth Jack.
However this isn't always the case. Some very well educated people believe in god. You don't say! You seem to presume (as do some others) that intelligence/education and religion/spirituality/faith are incompatible. They're not.
As for your final paragraph. I'll answer when you rewrite it so it's less insulting -- to my intelligence and my beliefs. You can start by dropping the "blind" before faith. It's an insult and a loaded phrase. Thank you. | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 6:34:24 AM | I don't believe the OP meant to be insulting... but was stating a "urban myth" of belief... and wondering about it. It's true that some who do not believe in a higher power state that belief is a symptom of ignorance... those are the ones who rely solely on empirical facts for their own view of the world and can not expand to accept that sometimes subjective personal conviction has no merit. It is also true that SOME who believe have not examined their beliefs but prosetylize from a pure (and usually extreme) position that is not very well-informed. But it's also true that there are many who are well-informed who also accept a spiritual component in their lives.
The whole problem is that people want things to be simple, to be easily labelled...to have everything (and everyone) fit into neat black and white categories... but humans, and life are rarely simple...complexity seems to be a given with human beings. There are ignorant believers and ignorant non-believers...and also the well-read, well-educated and informed non-believers and the educated and intelligent believers. There IS however a marked difference between the educated believers and the not so well educated ones (as with the non-believers) I have noticed.. the more informed ones have a broader view of their faith, are more likely to be tolerant and at least open to looking at other information or seeing spirituality as a far more complex thing than those who are less informed. I think the difference comes from being able to see abstract concepts in their faith... the literalist view is rarely the stance of the well-informed.
I definitely believe in a spiritual "world", and I like to think I am intelligent and well-read... this 'belief' doesn't seem to have impaired my ability to use my mind... if anything the complexity of religion and spirituality has given me opportunity to expand those abilities... to think in abstract ways, to absorb and understand symbols and archetypes, to see that not all is easily conveyed through words and platitudes but that there is frequently a deeper meaning to things and pure intellect does not always give me the ability to comprehend it all. Application and experience is essential to understanding some of the more meaningful and esoteric concepts in spiritual theory.
Personally I think that learning to balance and integrate intelligence and curiosity, common sense, scientific knowledge, and spirituality is the biggest challenge I have ever faced... and that has made me a much more well-rounded and informed person because of it.
It's a myth.. yet one based in some truth. I have read studies that have found that ON AVERAGE the higher the education level the less 'religious' people tend to be... but I think that doesn't necessarily preclude a spiritual aspect to their lives, but just the adherence to any particular religion.
Peace | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 6:38:28 AM | Less than 7% of members of the Academy of Sciences are religious, faith is big among window licking trailer park dwellers... draw your own conclusions... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 7:15:15 AM | I personally believe the right side of my brain to be God. I guess my beliefs somewhat lean towards solipsism.
I personally feel that trying to prove or disprove God is pointless whether one is a believer or not. You must have faith in God to know of his/her existence. I think to swap faith for proof in the equation would change the answer of God to something entirely different. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 8:39:30 AM | mystral13,
I don't have a definition of god really. I don't believe there is such a thing. But for the thread purpose lets just say in the broad sense of the word 'a deity' Because even i think there is energy that permeates everything I just don't think it has sentience. I also agree that there has been way to much fighting over the subject and really just want to understand if its an emotional decision and there for can't be intellectualized or understood or if there is a logical thinking that brought them to god.
And thank you for your story, that would have me wondering to.
E.Kyro,
I was at one time an addictions counsellor and one of the hardest things i dealt with was the way in which they considered addiction a disease and that people were powerless to control themselves. I could not stomach telling people to use the 12 step program and allowing them to think that they were in some way diseased and only though the power of a god would they find freedom. I'm glad its worked for you and you've gotten your life back from a very debilitating addiction. To me it just seemed that people were preying on people who were already down and implanting a belief system that could be considered to have made the difference in their lives even though they may of been able to beat it on their own with the support of the community and loved ones.
romanticoptimist,
what are we gona do with you eh? I didn't ask you specifically to answer, and if your offended that's yours not mine. As i've said before you are a very abusive man and this post is just another point in that observation. Trying to control...
Ravenstar66,
I can understand your point of view and it fits with some people. However I don't think that the world is black and white and there is so much that we don't know as of yet but we are working towards understanding these things. As i mentioned above i also believe in an energy that permeates everything but i'm unwilling to stretch that believe beyond what can be understood about it or our relationship to it. As with things like rieki and hands on techniques of healing or health and well-being it is clear that there is a mental ingredient to its outcome that is not restricted to the belief in a deity or that of a universal nature. So while i do believe that some of the healing practices work or can assist in someone healing themselves it is uncertain if it is the mind or something beyond the mind and body can be responsible. thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
TheLimey,
thanks for the little tidbit
Bill Ding,
i've never heard that belief. Are you saying god is a part of our brain? what's the other part of your brain? and i'm nost sure i understand this statement "You must have faith in God to know of his/her existence" is that like believing is seeing? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 9:12:10 AM | Crazylilting,
I guess solipsism can be summed up as saying I am all that I know really exists. You or anybody else is just a part of my mind that I created, therefore I am the creator. I do not know enough about the philosophy of solipsism to say I adhere to this train of thought but I do find it interesting.
I consider my right side God because that is the creative side of the brain. I create all that I know to be true (in a philosophical sense) therefore I consider my right side of the brain to be the creator.
Yes, what I am saying is in the case of God, believing is seeing rather then vice versa. The bible constantly talks about faith. I do not see the existence of God outside of the realm of faith. To prove God would mean we need tangible evidence of an intangible concept....It just won’t happen. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 9:26:04 AM | Bill ding,
you know what's really funny is that i just watched the moses code today and they said the same thing almost. I AM THAT, I AM is their mantra. They also believe that they are god because they are everything and only limited by what they try and separate themselves from.
I am however curious about how you say that when you believe you see. It's not like i didn't believe in god at one time in my life. however i always felt something was missing from it. The feeling that the belief was an empty belief because there was nothing there to believe in. So for some that have believed something came alive for them but it simply didn't happen for me.
I know my own sincerity so i can say with certainty that it wasn't for lack of belief or faith at the time. That's one of the reasons i have a hard time understanding believing in god. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 9:32:11 AM |
It has been said that the more educated a person is the less they believe in god. However this isn't always the case. Some very well educated people believe in god. I am definitely not a well educated or even a well read person but can see the importance of believing something that doesn't require faith or 'blind faith'.
So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists?
'blind faith' is a contradictory phrase, on the spiritual level. Faith is a reality of God that we are made aware of. God deals with each individual by bringing His reality into our knowledge in a variety of ways. For some it is a deep sensation of peace, for others there is a dramatic conversion experience simular to what Paul the Apostle had on the road to Damascus. But in either case, faith is a personal reality, and not an intellectual assumption.
I am not an educated person academically, I only have ever completed grade 8, and I never believed in God...In fact I mocked those who were so naive as to have faith. But that all changed when I had a 'Damscus road experience' with Christ. I was proven to be wrong, and it wasn't that I chose to be a believer after that, I was made into a believer. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 9:38:55 AM | Crazylilting,
If you believed in God I would think it would have to manifest itself into something.
The feeling that the belief was an empty belief because there was nothing there to believe in. To me this sounds like you are looking outside yourself for something to believe in and faith requires you to look inward rather than outward.
Let me use this analogy to explain what I understand you to be saying (correct me if I am misinterpreting). You take an envelope and mail it to yourself. You receive the envelope and it is empty so you no longer believe that letters are carried in envelopes. If you want to see what you believe you have to place something from yourself into the idea, not hope for something to just place itself into your idea on its own. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 9:42:13 AM | An addendum to my last post.
People who believe in aliens have extraterrestrial experiences. People who believe in God have religious experiences. People who believe in ghosts have paranormal experiences. Each experience is created by ones own mind to fit their beliefs. an empty belief results in an empty experience. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 12:54:04 PM |
So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. As has been pointed out, "blind faith" is a loaded phrase. I'm an educated scientific type. I belong to a religion where doubts are considered normal, and I have them, but generally I believe. I am certainly able to reconcile my belief in God with science.
Admittedly, I don' t buy everything that every religious person puts forth.
I don 't think of God as a "celestial servant", whose job it is to do what I ask in prayers. I think that God has given us what we need, and is to be thanked for that, and I'm respectful of other people's religions or lack of belief. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 1:08:37 PM | There is a difference imo between blind faith and of believing in God despite the lack of proof...
I see blind faith as a person making a decision based on a lack of knowledge/experience... and one who consistently refuses to question... merely puppets the beliefs of others out of fear... a fear of the unknown that they do not wish to face..
Whereas the other imo is a choice made... based on something that they have learned, experienced, felt, etc... which in my case was dependent upon the fact that I felt something... experienced and continue to experience something that proves to ME that there is a God.. a higher energy or whatever you want to term it... for me it is *love*
But I completely respect the fact that some others do not see things the same.. I only wish this were a universal concept, but then, as I have said before.. I tend to be a bit of a dreamer, lol.... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 1:15:02 PM |
What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists?
For me? Intuition, in every sense of the word… as said too… definitely not out of fear. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 1:30:50 PM | We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith.
Real Live Preacher
The above quote is one of my favorites and explains my faith journey quite well. I also want to say that faith isn't blind, but it might seem so to one who doesn't share it. Theists generally believe that they have a personal relationship with God and it's spiritually and emotionally intimate. There are countless times in my life when I have felt a very real presence of God and felt peace, joy and comfort in my heart, although I wouldn't have anything tangible or provable to show another. Could I see him with my eyes or touch him as I would a person sitting next to me? No, but it didn't diminish what my heart and soul divined even if it doesn't seem logical or especially intelligent.
I'll be the first to admit that much doesn't make sense to me and I don't think I'll ever understand. While I believe in science and know that it often contradicts the bible, I am reminded that the bible wasn't written or intended to be a science manual, but a spiritual guide. Just as I would never ask my lit professor to prove God to me, I don't ask the bible to prove or disprove science. In my mind, God is capable of so much that we mere humans will never quite understand and I'm at deep peace with it. Faith is mysterious, but I happen to find the mysterious beautiful, challenging and thought provoking.
I believe just because I do and I'm so thankful to my depths that it's so. I would never want a life of no belief or spirituality, just as I would never wish a life without my forays into the forests or the shores of the Pacific Ocean. My spirituality is also probably the very best parts of who I am as a woman, not the education or profession. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 1:47:59 PM |
as I have said before.. I tend to be a bit of a dreamer, lol....
And thankfully you're, sassyaquarius! Dreamers are by and large the poets and visionaries of the universe and often point humanity towards the better and more beautiful.  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 2:23:57 PM | consigliere31,
You mention that blind faith is a contradictory phrase and some others seem to take offence to the phrase. I'm having trouble understanding this sentance 'Faith is a reality of God that we are made aware of' is this where we are told to ask god for proof and some how he makes it real to us or that through our faith some action or situation will make you see that god is real? I mean i get what happened to paul. A blinding light etc... but these things don't happen every day in fact i don't think they happen at all. or i haven't heard of it nor could i believe it happened to anyone else unless it happened to me. If you say something like that happened to you i can't take that away but why to you and not me? what was the difference? which brings me to my reply to:
bill ding,
I am well aware that the kingdom of heaven is supposedly within us, and that we can get there through the narrow gate. etc etc.. I didn't expect god to perform great miracles or divide a sea for me, but why not a simple still voice within or anything of any substance to let me know that my faith was not wasted on empty words in an outdated book? I was a very sincere Christian when i was one, it is not in my nature be wishy washy.
To amendment I don't believe in aliens but i did have a dream that felt so real that for years i was petrified and did not tell anyone about it and thought i had been abducted. I'm not sure how i created such a dream nor would i want or wish such a dream for anyone. I believe many things about our world and the nature of it but non of it even the wonderful feelings and sensations that wash over me point to a god, those can be created without any thought of god.
bear45408,
I don't see blind faith as a loaded phrase. It is the very nature of faith. I don't use the phrase to entrap anyone into some argument about proof. I'm well aware there is no proof this is why i enquire to what has lead some more educated people to god. I've seen the lower end of the spectrum where people have been led to believe by trickery and assigning religious meaning to wonderful feelings that result from the ritual of worship making them believe that god is responsible for the feelings and or staged miracles that may have been performed. I am curious how you reconcile your belief in god and science and more importantly what led you to believe in the first place.
sassyaquarius,
can i get a refund for the mosses movie? *cough*
I'm very curious about this 'difference imo between blind faith and of believing in God despite the lack of proof' I can understand that people have experiences whilst in spiritual circles etc... but without testing if they can be replicated how do we really know that they were from god? I've tested them and found i replicate them for myself and others and this is why i have a hard time believing in god or a sentient universe that is called 'love' or anything else for that matter.
oddly enough i do believe in oneness and in love i just see them as purely human and not divine.
skypoetone,
'For me? Intuition, in every sense of the word… as said too… definitely not out of fear.' i'm interested in the how you got there not the mechanical process. I have intuition just as anyone does. I also have the capacity to believe as i once did. But nothing moved me in the direction of god.
stillwatersaredeep,
Thanks for sharing the quote. I'm unsettled by it though because it reminds me of those conditioning scripts that will reframe the belief system in your own way of thinking. For instance. In intense feeling situations like say ummm a crusade. there are people who don't believe Christians brought them in hopes to convince them that there was more to the belief if they could experience it for themselves. But how to get them to experience anything if they are defensive? Well you can identify with the traits that hole them back from being open and accept them. softening them to your own point of view. Whilst implanting different scripts and meme sets that will guide them to believe that god is speaking directly to them. Its called the borum effect? not sure of the name but it works. I can't remember the name of it hopefully another reader will. It is related to astrology readings and personality typing tests as well. how people can see some generic reading fit them to a tee.
Thanks so far for sharing everyone | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 2:32:19 PM | Well there is a difference between 'blind' faith and a Faith which is bestowed from the Spirit - IMHO.
The reasons for this are so profound as to only be explainable by the ancient notion of Gnosis. To the Gnostics, Faith was something you proved, each and every thought or 'belief' was subjected to rigorous testing and ofcourse the ultimate test of Logic.
It has been said that Plato was the great 'unknown' Gnostic of his day and I would argue having read some of his works, a resounding yes.
The great philosophers of ancient times, knew and understood the difference between 'belief' and Faith (which is by definition an actual knowing of the invisible). People of all ages and all histories and all mythologies who merely 'beleive' could in fact be completely wrong in their 'blind beliefs', such as those who follow some cult leader to their own deaths or community oblivion, as in the case of nut cases like Hitler or Stalin.
However to actually 'know' something to be real and True (whereas the Spirit of the Eternal is also the Spirit of Truth) is not only to witness its veracity, but also its presence. Here the Gnostic stands outside this dualistic and simplistic argument of 'blind belief' as though it were an actual Faith when it is not anything like.
There can be no real soul evolution and no real consciousness evolution into the Higher Living Light without actual use of Discernment which not only requires the higher faculties of Reason but also investigative Logic. To submit otherwise is to mock the consciousness integrity necessary and required of all those 'qualifying' for Life Eternal.
In other words, to say you believe is worthless, for even the scriptures state, the devils believe also and tremble. But to say you KNOW, places you in a much higher Mind dimension known as Mind-2 to the philosphers and neuroscientist alike. For 'knowing' or Gnosis is solely based on Life experience, and we who actually do KNOW what we are talking about, can say this because we have experience to back it up.
In other words, the Trees of Life depicted as being in Heaven and in the garden of Eden, are not only a subjective experience, but also an objective one, that is wholly PROVABLE because it is testable through experience.
This has been done before with top level scientists participating within the militaries of the world, on numerous occasions, and if you dont KNOW that, well sorry for you, for all you have are projections of simplistic 'belief' and/or 'anti-belief' which has no real world affect whatsoever, other than to further the cause black n white scientific redundancy, dualistic hatred and consciousness slavery, wars and confusion for humanity. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 2:51:35 PM | crazylilting
i'm interested in the how you got there not the mechanical process. I have intuition just as anyone does. I also have the capacity to believe as i once did. But nothing moved me in the direction of god.
There is no mechanical process or text book to God, imho. To say that there is is to divide God, label it like you would something tangible. I do not see that being possible, do you? And for what purpose would God be something other than unconditional love ? Would it require scare tactics to drive the message home? Blackmail perhaps? Rage and jealousy? No, of course not. All of those things are human mechanisms, nothing to do with spirituality in my book. So you see the answer is simple, you dig below the surface of human fragility to find what has always been within. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 3:16:19 PM |
E.Kyro,
I was at one time an addictions counsellor and one of the hardest things i dealt with was the way in which they considered addiction a disease and that people were powerless to control themselves.
A true addict/alcoholic is powerless to control themselves. The few I have met that were able to abstain without a spiritual solution were restless, irritable and discontent with their lives.
Your belief that people can control themselves may be the very reason you have a problem seeing any evidence of God because for me it was the first place where He manifested His presence. | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 3:23:19 PM |
Less than 7% of members of the Academy of Sciences are religious, faith is big among window licking trailer park dwellers... draw your own conclusions
Oh that's right, I forgot C.S. Lewis lived in a trailer park.
Help me out here people- can anyone think of some more prominent window lickers? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 3:32:06 PM |
stillwatersaredeep,
Thanks for sharing the quote. I'm unsettled by it though because it reminds me of those conditioning scripts that will reframe the belief system in your own way of thinking. For instance. In intense feeling situations like say ummm a crusade. there are people who don't believe Christians brought them in hopes to convince them that there was more to the belief if they could experience it for themselves. But how to get them to experience anything if they are defensive? Well you can identify with the traits that hole them back from being open and accept them. softening them to your own point of view. Whilst implanting different scripts and meme sets that will guide them to believe that god is speaking directly to them. Its called the borum effect? not sure of the name but it works. I can't remember the name of it hopefully another reader will. It is related to astrology readings and personality typing tests as well. how people can see some generic reading fit them to a tee.
Thanks for letting me know that the quote caused you to feel unsettled and why. It's something that really speaks to my heart because my faith journey has been so confusing over parts of my life and I really identify with others who have had the same. The author, Real Live Preacher, found himself in the situation of being both a theist (a pastor specifically) and finding that he ceased believing in the great flood or the Genesis Creation account. As I've followed both his blog and books that he writes over the years, I find that my heart can relate to a lot of mixed feelings of love and belief, but doubt and fear as well. I wasn't quoting a conditioning script, but the words of a man whom I greatly respect his journey and wisdom regarding faith.
It can't be argued that in past times times of crusades or taking over a land (Native Americans are a great recent example) the church often did assimilate a persons existing beliefs into the one they were bringing. But that doesn't mean that all of us who sometimes doubt or seek far and wide are trying to bring others to our way of thinking or manipulate how a person feels. For heavens sake, I don't know how *I* feel a lot of the time. That quote works for myself personally and the author because many of us have wrestled with our faith in gigantic ways. It's true for many; the greater the doubt, the more of a feat the faith is because we've so often teetered on the edge of both. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:00:56 PM | Of course there are educated people who believe in god. A belief in the divine does not defy education or intelligence. I will say that a strict literal belief in the Bible or the Koran does reflect a high level of gullibility (which I had). Sorry, but I've simply found that to be the case. For me, it was because I went to church at a young age and later in life was often given apologetic lessons showing how literal interpretations are feasible. The leap of faith was effectively lessened to a meager step. I was surrounded by like-minded people who were very well educated. Try going to a church near a college campus to see what I mean.
Even so, there are certain scientific professions that would not be well represented by fundamentalist believers, such as paleontology and genetics. | |
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