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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments... [Thread closed - hijacked]
Posted: 4/15/2008 9:25:36 AM | Have you ever wondered why the Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments have been met with so much criticism over the last few decades?
Ever wondered about alternatives to annulments that would make the church appear more genuine in its approach to divorce and remarriage and more pastorally sensitive to those experiencing marital breakdown? | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/15/2008 3:36:44 PM | Because of the hipocrisy as to how and why some the annulments take place. I am a born and raised Catholic. My father was my mother's second husband--they were married legally, but her marriage to my father was never recognized in the Catholic church as a "true" marriage because her first marriage was never annuled. For 23 years she wasn't allowed to receive any sacraments--Reconciliation, Communion, etc.--but she still went to church faithfully ever week and instilled in my family the need to go and actively practice the Catholic religion.
I never understood how you can be with someone for 20-plus years, share a house, two children, and live as a family unit but still be considered as "living in sin" and refused the basic rites of any of the so-called "good Catholics" out there because a priest hadn't said prayers over them in a chapel.
They finally were free to marry "for real" when her ex-husband died--almost 25 years after they had been married. I thought it was ridiculous --the Church's rules of the marriage, that is, not the wedding itself--it was lovely to see my mom so happy and free to receive the sacraments again. But the idea that my mom and dad had to go through so much and wait all of those years just to get the Church's "permission" really made me mad. I've heard stories from people who said they were told they would receive annulments if they made a financial contribution to the Church, and other similar stories of bribary. The concept of annulments have almost become a joke.
I love my religion, I really do, but there are some things in it that I don't agree with. And this is definitely one of them.
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/16/2008 8:30:09 AM | Thanks for posting - and even though I know I am probably about to walk straight into a hornets nest and get worked over - still, I prefer honest (albeit angry) dialogue to all the mental self gratification taking place in so many other threads.
At least here we can be real as opposed to these other places where people prefer to call names, brand labels on each other and basically speak from their deep seated desire to impose their hang-ups (which they disguise as "freedom-fighting") on people who don't believe like they do.
gonzofanmel Posted: 4/15/2008
Because of the hypocrisy as to how and why some the annulments take place.
I used to think the same thing, but mostly because I did not KNOW but only ASSUMED I KNEW how it all worked. When I had to consider annulling my marriage to prepare for a serious (Catholic) relationship (which by the Catholic paradigm leads to marriage and children) what I discovered was I was wrong about my misperception of the system as being hypocritical.
I was also wrong about my needing an annulment to clear the way for the real deal - I merely needed what my Bishop and The Tribunal refers to as a "Lack - of Form" (sounds military, huh? Knights Templars?).
I am a born and raised Catholic.
Peace Be With You.
My father was my mother's second husband--they were married legally, but her marriage to my father was never recognized in the Catholic church as a "true" marriage because her first marriage was never annulled
In my case, because my marriage was not sanctified by The Church the first time round, it was not recognized as a legitimate marriage - therefore the civil divorce was not observed by The Church (meaning I could reconcile with my former spouse and have the marriage sanctified -or remarry ACCORDING TO THE CANNON LAW of The Church).
And this is why, despite my previous ignorance of the fact, that knowledge of Catholicism and Her Sacraments is imperative to a healthy relationship/marriage.
I say, dating and courtship should give us the knowledge of one another and each other's families and traditions to help us understand if marriage is compatible. Pre-marital counseling with our Priest is imperative to help us understand if we are "equally yoked" to use a phrase from The Bible and my personal trainer.
For 23 years she wasn't allowed to receive any sacraments--Reconciliation, Communion, etc.--but she still went to church faithfully ever week and instilled in my family the need to go and actively practice the Catholic religion.
Communication to her Priest and Bishop regarding modifications to conform to Cannon Law would have warranted the issuance of dispensation that she could receive The Sacraments.
I never understood how you can be with someone for 20-plus years, share a house, two children, and live as a family unit but still be considered as "living in sin"
This same lack of understanding, of which I am as guilty as anyone, is what causes most of us to ASSUME that there is something wrong with The Church and in our lack of knowledge we ASSUME that is The Church that needs to catch up with us, and not that we are acting in "error" (which is the literal definition of the word "sin").
This is the progressivism that The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI just spoke of in Washington and which we must not encourage as it is a grave error.
If I leap before I look by acting while in a state of "lack of understanding" it is not The Church's error but my own. And in my case I see now looking back on it how God has shown me Grace in allowing me to correct myself so I can find a loving and enriching marriage within The Church.
...and refused the basic rites of any of the so-called "good Catholics" out there because a priest hadn't said prayers over them in a chapel.
The idea of puffed up Catholics who consider themselves "good" flies in the face of the fact that any truly "good" Catholic is only the one who will say: "I am a sinner, and chief among them" and in that state of honest contrition seek to correct our errors as in the reconciliation offered through confession.
We are all broken, seeking mending. Perhaps if we seek the mending in the confessional and not in our marriages... perhaps each would suffer less at the detriment of the other.
They finally were free to marry "for real" when her ex-husband died--almost 25 years after they had been married.
Some Things Are For Life. Many Obligations Don't Just Go Away When We Change Our Minds. I didn't realize this until my kid was born - then I realized it in every cell nerve fiber of my being.
Why then should it be any different with our marriages, unless we really don't want marriage, but want a series of relationships we can waltz into and out of at whim, indiscriminately peppering the world with "unwanted-pregnancies" or worse... I know, I've been there too.
I thought it was ridiculous --the Church's rules of the marriage, that is, not the wedding itself
If you look at the blue-prints, what you will find is that The Church is the architect of The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, so it's floor plan, if undesirable to us, is one we probably should not house ourselves in?
--it was lovely to see my mom so happy and free to receive the sacraments again.
I can add nothing to this statement, except to ask you to reflect upon this single statement of yours and ask you to seriously contemplate why your mom was so happy and what was at the foundation of her happiness.
But the idea that my mom and dad had to go through so much and wait all of those years just to get the Church's "permission" really made me mad.
Most of my problems today stem directly from my willingness to push forward in areas where I did not have "permission". My demand to have it my way was usually the result of side-stepping the authority which I did not want to have to ask "permission" from or seek "endorsement" from.
Looking back on it, maybe I should have resented the permission less - and enjoyed the blessing more.
I've heard stories from people who said they were told they would receive annulments if they made a financial contribution to the Church, and other similar stories of bribary.
From my direct, first hand experience, I can say that these stories are either lies, or the persons telling them had serious misunderstandings of the fact that ALL Church Tribunal processes have fee's and costs associated with them - mainly because it is unfair for us to expect The Church to foot the bill on printing us a formal decree that states that we have been relieved of the trouble we got ourselves into - wouldn't you agree?
The concept of annulments have almost become a joke.
I would only add this... that our misunderstanding and misconceptions about annulments has worsened out situations in life and that looking at any sacred institution from the vantage point of misunderstanding and misguidance will obscure the truth.
A truth we are not able to understand is the same as a lie to the mind which interprets it.
I love my religion, I really do, but there are some things in it that I don't agree with. And this is definitely one of them.
IF YOU LOVE IT - LEARN IT; and then teach it to others.
Blessings.
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/16/2008 6:17:36 PM | Dreamboat:
I take it that your former wife was not of the Catholic faith.
I agree that dating/courting should be a time of getting to know not only each other but each other's families and traditions.
I would truly hate to think that I missed out on a life time of happiness because I refused to get to know someone based solely on their religious beliefs. Equally yoked is a term I use as well. It has many meanings but I think it is also based on compatibility and the all seeking, everlasting love. Isn't that what we are all looking for? | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/16/2008 8:23:59 PM | | In one sense the Church's position makes sense according to Scripture. But if we look a bit further it doesn't make much sense at all. Recall that Jesus taught that divorce was only allowed in the case of adultery. He made no exceptions for abuse, financial ruin, boredom, loss of common ground, etc. The Church, if it wants to be true to Scripture, has to take a hard line on divorce. On the other hand Jesus said that looking at another women with lust is adultery. I'd think that would make getting a divorce trivial. I'd suspect that the number of husbands that have never looked at another woman with lust is infinitesimally small. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:00:15 AM | | That is an example of a religion thinking they are the end all of it all.When you give another man that much power over your life that you will allow him to come into your home, where you have been married to a man and took vows before God and man,to tell you that what you have been living in for however many years was not real and if you happen to have children from that union then they are instantly made into fatherless kids then you get what you ask for which is total mayhem with a foundation that the slightest breeze could blow over.This is not an example of christianity but of religion and how it goes amuck when left to fester without squashing it or at least cutting the head of it off because that is the only way you can truly kill a serpant. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:44:35 AM | My former spouse was EVERYTHING but Catholic.
It was my coming back to The Church that put us over the edge because, although we were married in a schizmatic order of the catholic church, as long as my former spouse was allowed to run willy, nilly with the spiritual retreats and jumping from this coven to that New Age circle things were left alone.
When my daughter was born, I decided to live my religion and let teach my daughter according to The Cathechism of The Roman Catholic Church.
As soon as I firmed up and started living the beliefs of The Church, things got better for me, but by that time it was way to late for my former spouse.
Why would you have to have to miss out on a life-time of happiness by refusing to get to know someone based solely on their religious beliefs... what do you mean by this? | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:48:49 AM | Dear Spearheadfish...
I think I can agree with you in parts, but I disagree in other parts. And truthfully, while free-flowing streams of consciousness are fun, I didn't understand much of your post.
Beezes, and squashing festering muck and cutting heads of snakes... which Parish did you attend? | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/17/2008 8:31:21 AM | Dreamboat was that question for me??
I would hate to think i missed out on a life-time of happiness because i was closed-minded and not willing to accept another's faith or willing to change my way of worshipping in order to be with that person wholly in every aspect of our lives. If I am fortunate enough to meet someone of this caliber, I would truly consider after much counselling and prayer doing whatever it takes within my power to make a committed decision to be totally devoted not only to him but OUR God. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/17/2008 8:47:07 AM | Doodles:
I think your aproach is a sound one, because The Catholic Church does not grant divorces.
Jesus defined marriage as "what God has joined together".
God made laws which prevented certain people, like close relations, from marrying each other, and today we demand that such relationships end.
God has clearly and firmly told believers, in both testaments, that they may not marry unbelievers.
God used Ezra to cause believers to "divorce" unbelievers they had "married".
This rule holds true today. The Bible clearly allows for divorce where a true Christian disobeys God by marrying a non-Christian, whether or not there has been any other sin.
People often miss this point because they misunderstand what the Apostle Paul wrote about a different topic.
What is a Declaration of Nullity (annulment)?
A declaration of nullity states that, according to Church law, a given marriage was not valid (and therefore not binding) at the time a couple spoke their marriage vows. A person asks this Office to look at a previous marriage which has ended in divorce, and, if possible, to issue a declaration that this previous marriage no longer binds either party to the union. In no way should this process be thought of as a type of "Catholic Divorce." A declaration of nullity states that a marriage was invalid from the beginning. A civil divorce, on the other hand, asserts that a marriage, valid or not, is dissolved. The Catholic Church does not grant divorces.
Neither is an annulment a statement that a marriage never existed civilly. Rather, it is a determination that certain conditions were present at the time the marriage was entered that made it an invalid union according to Catholic Church teaching. The civil effects and recognition of that marriage remain intact and unchanged.
Moreover, an annulment is not a statement that the marriage was entered into in bad faith by either of the parties. It is not a statement of who caused the marriage to fail or who was most guilty for its failure. Those are certainly important questions for a person to ask. But they are not the questions a Tribunal must answer.
The annulment process, in its most simple form, involves any person coming to the Church and asking to be heard. Information is gathered by us and in the end, we answer that person's request: the marriage was invalid or valid according to the laws of the Church. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/18/2008 11:58:11 AM | Rebecca352 wrote:
Dude, what happened to your thread on CATHOLIC SINGLES, and OUTSIDE THE CHURCH: To Date or Not To Date??? I was totally going to post on it then it was gone!..Let me guess... crypto-fascists again?
BIG BROTHER is always watching. You know, I put them up then the same knockle heads roll in and start bullying others... then I give them what for - next, I'm gone.
Anywho... I used to really hate the church having so much power, then I realized that was like not voting because I don't like taxes.
Well, thats the issue really, I mean you have all these people talking god, when they know little to nothing about their own religion, the bible or the christian identity - so how much less about The Holy Roman Catholic Church, founded by Christ as His Church on earth - and our guidelines
It seems like people want the Britney Spears school of social conduct:
What!?! Rebecca - you are CRAZY! And I love it... | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/18/2008 4:23:26 PM |
LOL, I have to be honest, I don't really want to go there on this forum. It will only lead to a flame-fest against our beliefs I am of the opinion that the strength of your faith and depth of your beliefs; your apparent grasp of the history of man and your church; your considered and respectful posting style, and your refusal to preach or pander - all combine to make for a very effective fire extinguisher.
While I don't blame you for your fatigue - you, young sir, appear to wear an asbestos suit ... and can often lift a discussion out of the primordial ooze.
Kudos. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/21/2008 10:47:20 AM | Artful Codger wrote:
I am of the opinion that the strength of your faith and depth of your beliefs; your apparent grasp of the history of man and your church; your considered and respectful posting style, and your refusal to preach or pander - all combine to make for a very effective fire extinguisher.
Wow, tall order - but true. If you misjudge and get the ratio off even just a smidge you end up getting burned.
But then again it is only a thread on a 100% FREE DATING SITE.
We should keep things in perspective, afterall.
A couple fantastic things that I have encountered since manuvering through this website and it's threads are;
1. I have met some wonderful women with whom I find chemistry and romance (they just happen to be Catholic),
and;
2. Several people have emailed me privately telling me that they have either begun researching their Catholic faith and drawing closer to it or as non Catholics, they are researching The Catholic Church and exploring joining.
I find that alone pleasing. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/21/2008 10:49:56 PM |
I am of the opinion that the strength of your faith and depth of your beliefs; your apparent grasp of the history of man and your church; your considered and respectful posting style, and your refusal to preach or pander - all combine to make for a very effective fire extinguisher. Wow, tall order - but true. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/22/2008 4:39:11 AM | I think the church's desire to protect marriage and its sacramental meaning against the rising tide of divorce and relationship breakdown is admirable. I think the core teaching, that marriage is meant to be lifelong and a loving bond between two people, should not be changed.
The pastoral situation though is that people who divorce or who are separated, which can sometimes happen through no fault of their own, can be placed in a difficult situation, as one poster has already mentioned. I think this problem happens especially when leaders of the church adopt a legalistic rather than compassionate approach to the problem of divorce amoung Catholics. I don't think the church should ever officially endorse divorce as the best solution to problems which happen in marriage, but rather than a negative approach based on punishments for 'breaking' the law (such as witholding the sacraments) I think a pastoral approach based on trying to prepare people for marriage and its responsibilities, support and counselling for those whose marriages are in grave trouble, and support for those whose marriages have broken down and ended in separation or divorce, is the best approach to deal with this social problem. The church should also work to criticise and where possible, remedy the social and individual problems or moral evils which erode the stability of marriage. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/22/2008 6:45:15 AM | CountIbli wrote:
In one sense the Church's position makes sense according to Scripture. But if we look a bit further it doesn't make much sense at all. Recall that Jesus taught that divorce was only allowed in the case of adultery.
I think it was adultry, and death of former spouse.
He made no exceptions for abuse, financial ruin, boredom, loss of common ground, etc.
Abuse I can see discussing, but financial ruin? Some of the most impoversihed people have made some of the most monumental change in the world's history and have produced children who have gone on to work wonders in raising the human race to greater heights. Boredom? At this point we must ask if it is a life-long commitment we are looking form or a " hobby '. And loss of common ground just sounds like psychobabble.
Loss of common ground, what is it? Thou shalt not commit murder, unless thy findeth that your victim was causing thee to loseth thy common ground...
Although this discussion would have been ideal for the thread[s] I started: 'Catholic Singles' and 'Outside The Church: To Date or Not To Date' the GATEKEEPERS, knowing so much better than we what we do or do not want to discuss and think about deleted these threads.
Be that as it may, allow me to share the following thoughts. There is no support for the notion that Jesus felt that people should stay in abusive relationships, nor that The Church enforces that idea. The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony necessitates much pre-marital experiance of who the person is you are marrying.
The Catholic Church promotes a long dating ritual, once known as 'Courtship' (another thread, the deletion of which forces our discussion into this corner).
The idea was get to know your partner and his family well enough to preclude the possability of abuse and neglect - THEN marry and not before.
The Church takes The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony seriously becuase we are spiritual creatures trapped in material bodies and we are uniting a spiritual substance through a material veil.
The Church, if it wants to be true to Scripture, has to take a hard line on divorce. On the other hand Jesus said that looking at another women with lust is adultery. I'd think that would make getting a divorce trivial. I'd suspect that the number of husbands that have never looked at another woman with lust is infinitesimally small.
Greg8002 wrote:
I think the church's desire to protect marriage and its sacramental meaning against the rising tide of divorce and relationship breakdown is admirable. I think the core teaching, that marriage is meant to be lifelong and a loving bond between two people, should not be changed.
Anything which saves marriages and family life is a good thing. I think it is true that "the family" is the root of all civilization - thus, anything which errodes our institution of the family in our contry, ultimately ebbs at our national unity and identity.
While there are some who might consider things like national unity and identity as despensible as they feel the family institution is - well I simply do not feel this way and will live my life in defense of these holy institutions.
I think this problem happens especially when leaders of the church adopt a legalistic rather than compassionate approach to the problem of divorce amoung Catholics.
Allow me to remind you that The Holy Father, Pope Benedict the XVI just spoke to throngs of multitudes of people all of whom demonstrated agreement with The Church's position in against moral relativism.
The Church teaches that souls go to hell - The Church can teach that compassionately, and must where the tender minds of the young hear it. We must never allow ourselves to take on the attitude that the teachings of The Church, founded by Jesus Christ (God Incarnate) can be short cut because of inconvenience to our mortal hang-ups.
but rather than a negative approach based on punishments for 'breaking' the law (such as witholding the sacraments) I think a pastoral approach based on trying to prepare people for marriage and its responsibilities, support and counselling for those whose marriages are in grave trouble, and support for those whose marriages have broken down and ended in separation or divorce, is the best approach to deal with this social problem.
The Church authored marriage and should continue to enforce marriage as it has based on Biblical Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium of The Catholic Church.
The Church should teach the truth and nothing short of the truth no matter how uncomrortable to our "modern" model of nauptual rituals may make things to us.
Holy Matrimony and The Church's authority is for us to adhere to and conform to and not the other way around. Many a Protestant faction and other ecclestial communities have formed to accomodate this attitude of modernism and moral relativism.
I agree, however, being in a state of sinfulness myself, that compassion shown by The Catholic Church is a sign of The Grace of God in our world.
The church should also work to criticise and where possible, remedy the social and individual problems or moral evils which erode the stability of marriage.
This I agree with wholeheartedly. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/22/2008 8:26:59 AM | Marriage, more than, more than friendship, the word is similar to fusion and welding, and Jesus said the two become one flesh. God made water, which composes ninety percent of our bodies. Waters join.
Bloods run close indeed! Life is in the blood.
Senses to senses, will to will accord, and fusion, also as the will moves the emotions of the other to climax, moving the senses and mind already filled with images and feelings and sounds... and moving the will and emotions even more. The centre of being, in the centre of her being, centre meaning heart, heart of spirit. Causes, souls, hearts bodies, all one thing.
Hearts remain joined near or far.
A very special thing, marriage, even to the fusing of seeds and then the moving of paternal and maternal love.
A matter of honour, trust, kindness, fairplay, love, commitment, unselfishness and sanctity since the two are not apart from eachother but joined and are set apart from the world together.
Adultery really hurts that union with the dishonour and betrayal, and unholiness of other hearts in their union.
Only death has the power to break the bonds of marriage.
Or god, if it is for the innocent person's sanctity and peace. Not only the thought but action of adultery, the real fusing of beings, with the third dark hearted person, is justly unacceptable needing divorce of the welding, by god's power.
Otherwise the marriage goes on, then with four or more people...
Jesus said adultery justifies divorce, Paul added if an unbelieving spouse leaves you may let them go.
The Catholic church says we must also consider the community to whom the letter was written. They are not sure.
We need power to divorce, of the holy spirit, or by receiving the holy spirit. According to his will and then word. The New Testament.
If for peace and sanctity you need the power, you should ask and seek it's application...
I suppose it is unfair for the church to condone a divorce by law that the other spouse resist, and wishes were not, pained by the other man or woman having his or her dear one, unfair by him her. Justice is a weighty matter, and seed, and friendship and love, and honour, very weighty. Worth fighting for. A matter weighing against life itself in intensity. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/22/2008 7:23:16 PM | Csonca:
Very insightful. The two flesh become one flesh in the form of the child.
Since the child is the natural course of marital union how much more important that the matrimonial union have been sanctified and sealed by The Church.
Let us remember that where the law of man has it's "civil law" divorce - The Catholic Church does not divorce. Rather, The Catholic Church ANNULS according to Her Cannon Law (indeed the origin of much of our Western law). | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/23/2008 4:49:11 PM | I think it was intended by Jesus to be a matter of justice and sanctity. He didn't want someone taking someone else's wife, or husband. It is unfair, and the divided commitments and masses of fusions isn't what what god made but rebellion, rebellion is not by chance but designed to harm.
It is selfish and cruel.
But in a modern sense, people are willing to say, "We are both unhappy, and our counselor agrees we should divorce." They may not be hurt. Not all get so jealous. God condescends, sees the human hearts, and their self loss as a matter of justice... Can say a lot. Really emotions give understanding better than words.
Paul said we are called to peace. But not only sensual peace. Honour and justice, trust...
So the kind, honour loving godly jealous, committal, selfless, guarding man is protected and guarded by Jesus teaching. So those who teach from Jesus will not crush the first man or woman for the second. And if he doesn't care for justice, follow condescension, and for sanctity, want them to be set apart together.
The man's or woman's seed is a great matter of honour to the spouse. If I had a wife, her seed in case of an intruder at night, or persuasive rival, would matter more to me than my houses, cars, everything material, they only would serve to protect her. Fire or another has her, fire. As for persuasion, let's move to another city.
Moreso I look from a Pentecostal view, and don't so well understand the Catholic annulments. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 4/28/2008 3:43:40 PM | I think that God is a loving-caring God - i do not condone and am by no means proud of the fact that i am going through a divorce. It has been a difficult and extremely painful time for myself, as well as our children.
I do not think God would want me to continue in a relationship that has been truly dysfunctional and in no way gave him the Glory. I am whole heartedly an advocate of "equally yoked". My soon to be ex husband offerered no guidance or direction in our Christian lives - it was left solely up to me. After much pain and suffering the children and I endured, I know that God knows my heart and that he forgives me. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 5/2/2008 7:37:09 AM | Hunki-Dorie wrote:
I think that God is a loving-caring God - i do not condone and am by no means proud of the fact that i am going through a divorce. It has been a difficult and extremely painful time for myself, as well as our children.
This is one primary reason that I embrace The Catholic Church's teacings in this area. We are encourged to engage in long courtship rites and to go through extensive pre-marital counselling to secure compatability and a sustainable longevity.
The seal, once set, cannot be broken - therefore we should take it seriously. I have statistics that show that where couples cannot just arbritarily write each other off in cookie-cutter divorces, where these couples must work together for the benefit of a child, the divorce rate dramatically decreases.
I propose that this could be facilitated more readily by our return to a structure like The Roman Catholic Church, and as a Catholic, I have not had to look far for such a structure - Thank God. | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 5/2/2008 10:21:24 AM | Just for discussion sake: How long do you think or consider a "long" courtship??
I dated my former husband exactly one year (to the day ) before of our marriage and obviously it wasn't enough time. Our marriage lasted almost 20 yrs - but the majority of those years was miserable because of our "incompatibility".
I agree with the pre-marital counselling but TIME TOGETHER- quality and length of time, is definitely a crucial factor when dating/courtship. Just curious as to who knows how long ?????
Thanks dreamboat......... | |
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| Catholic Church's teaching and practice of annulments...
Posted: 5/6/2008 6:40:53 AM | Remember, the Catholic laws apply only to Catholics. I know of one couple where the guy was Catholic and the gal was not. They married in an off-shoot Catholic church which is not observed by The Pope, so now that they are divorced and the guy has gone back to the Roman Catholic Church, he is free to remarry.
I am told that if he and his non-Catholic wife were to reconcile that the Church would even "bless" the union so that he could continue to recieve the Sacraments.
Seems to me a pretty lenient Church policy coming from a Church that just really wants to protect the Sanctity of Matrimony.
Hunki Dorie wrote:
Just for discussion sake: How long do you think or consider a "long" courtship??
It's not really my place to say for another when the right time is for them to engage in the rite of courtship, rather, I would respectfully leave that in the jurisdiction of the couple, the clergy of the couple in question and with the couple's families.
Some have recommended that there be an extended dating of 1 - 3 years without living together in order to properly determine if the person is marriage material.
Although I am not certain as to their reasoning, I do know that behavioral science reveals that in the first year together we are responding to animal impulses and sexual urges. In the third year is when most new relationships break up. This is where the "I don't know you anymore" syndrome kicks in.
This is because the relationship, forged in the furnace of animal passion, does not stand the test of time when the phermones wear off and we start burping and farting around each other, leaving our bras and socks hanging on the shower rails and forgetting to pay the light bill on time.
Once we see the "human" person insde Ms. or Mr. Right, then we have to make a mature decision, what we used to call in the olden dayes, a "commitment".
Once we committ to making it work, even past the couple of pounds we may have put on and the fact that we may never miraculouly transform into Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie... then this is what we call Love. Because now we have been to the edge and seen the end and we are still willing to muster up the wherewithall to push forward and BUILD a life together.
I dated my former husband exactly one year (to the day ) before of our marriage and obviously it wasn't enough time.
In that case, Hunkie Dorie... do you mind if I make a suggestion? I don't think it was enough time. OR other circumstances clouded your judgement during this crucial decision making period. Were you sexually active during this period of discovery, and did you by chance become pregnant during this period of discovery?
These sorts of ocurrances tend to offset the empirical control of our observations and overrides our capacity for objectivity.
Our marriage lasted almost 20 yrs - but the majority of those years was miserable because of our "incompatibility".
So, you dated someone for a year, yet that person was found, subsiquent to marriage (and presumably children) to have been incompatible with you?
I agree with the pre-marital counselling but TIME TOGETHER- quality and length of time, is definitely a crucial factor when dating/courtship.
If you can date someone for a year in order to make sure that person is the right person to marry and still end up marrying them and having kids with them only to find out years later that you are incompatible - I should say that I agree with you that pre-marital counselling is a must.
As for TIME TOGETHER, we need to be careful because often times this means license to become sexually active and/or living together pre-maturly. Even if we take Catholicism out of the picture - these remain life affecting issued which really should be treated cautiously and delicately.
Case in point: we may assume that because the sex is great and we both have 100K incomes that we should get married and have babies... then comes the third year and maybe he or she feels incompatible and wants to trade up to a younger prettier model (as an example).
Case in point: we become financially dependent on each other because we have started living together and so why not just go a head and start taking it out in sexual favors and acting as husband and wife until someone better comes along.
We want to make sure that we are doing dignity to ourselves, each other and above all our children - so waiting should be seen as a sign of love as much as rushing in because if he or she really loves you they will want it to be right.
This is, if LOVE is prized over mere animal passions. And when it comes time to decide in a divorce who get the kids... LOVE will make life infinitely more livable than animal passions...
Just curious as to who knows how long ?????
This is exactly why I think a Catholic couple should make these decisions with a Priest and pre-marital counselling, because in the end, only God and the couple will know.
Thanks dreamboat......... | |
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