| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 4:40:22 AM | Now that we are rapidly approaching the realisation that both the war in Iraq and the war on terror are nearly over and that America and it's allies have lost, is it time to start thinking about how we might win the peace and come out of this mess with our dignities and societies relatively intact.
No matter how you feel the current conflict is going, even the most diehard amongst us must realize that things must come to a head soon. Whatever measure you use to judge progress shows we will eventually be brought to the negotiating table. Better to take up our seat there of our own volition rather than be dragged there by our 'enemies'. We are losing on every front we fight. In Iraq, Afganistan, here at home and more importantly in the hearts and minds of those who would fight against us.
Osama Bin Laden is seen by many as the epitomy of evil out to destroy capitalism and everthing else we stand for. However prior to 9/11 he and his family were amongst the worlds elite in terms of wealth and power. He is no feeble minded camel hearder but a very astute and capable businessman. If he was responsible for those attacks, then you might ask what his war strategy is. I think he and others are ready to discuss peace as soon as we are. Maybe now we should start doing just that. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 9:36:35 AM | Osama Bin Laden is seen by many as the epitomy of evil out to destroy capitalism and everthing else we stand for. However prior to 9/11 he and his family were amongst the worlds elite in terms of wealth and power. He is no feeble minded camel hearder but a very astute and capable businessman. If he was responsible for those attacks, then you might ask what his war strategy is. I think he and others are ready to discuss peace as soon as we are. Maybe now we should start doing just that.
On what basis do you call him an astute businessman?
Yes, his family business was among the elite in their niche (construction). It was built by his father and his grandfather. But his parents divorced (she was his 10th wife of 22) and he was not raised by his father, and he didn't have anything to do with running the business. Rather, he (and 55 other children) got a passive interest in the company on his father's death. The business itself was turned over to the older children, not #17 who wasn't even raised in the family. Bin Laden was the equivalent of a 'trust fund hippie.' In fact, that would suggest that he would be even *less* inclined to favor reason and business sense over his ideals. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 5:03:17 PM | Thank you namegame I didn't know that. You learn something every day. Since most people would accept that war is a business and he's managing to give the two best armed forces on earth a run for their money. I say he was astute. You should never underestimate the intellect and ability of you enemy. He's a smart cookie and he knows that this has to end soon too. It's time to stop talking war and start talking peace and I believe that desire exists on both sides. We need to stop being so angry about things we cannot change and start changing the things we can.
If Osama Bin Laden was in someway responsible for that attack then he attacked the World Trade Centre. He attacked you wealth creation machine so I doubt he's one of your neocon conspiritors. No not a hero to corporate or any sane thinking person.
As for losing the war, I tell you we are losing because we are. We are measuring this war in numbers of dead and dollars spent, both of these measures show no sign of slowing down and the higher they get the harder it will become for us to send our children into the army. Their army grows exponencially every time we kill women and children as we did again recently. They don't count the dead they count Angels and myrtars. Their morale is not sapping away they are not stupid, they know s you do that you cannot finance these wars for too long. Anyone care to hazzard a guess at the cost in lives and dollar by 2012 London Olympics?.
Most people I talk to here or elsewhere believe that there is some skullduggary afoot with this war, oil, legality or whatever, it shows our hearts are not in it not if we think our children are dying for the wrong reasons.
Everyone who reads this could probably hazard some guess as to the next terrorist target and the scary thing is they would all be right. The knowhow to make these things is available on the internet and one local man here where I live has just been arrested making a suicide device. Looks like the 'war on terror' ain't going too well either because I'm terrified mate.
Tell me what we are doing to stop him wanting to do that. Start talking about peace whilst we still have the position of strength in negotiations. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 5:09:40 PM | | if osama bin laden is guilty of even half of what he's been accused he should be appointed ruler of the world. he is more astute than any other leader on earth. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 5:48:45 PM |
Everyone who reads this could probably hazard some guess as to the next terrorist target and the scary thing is they would all be right. The knowhow to make these things is available on the internet and one local man here where I live has just been arrested making a suicide device. Looks like the 'war on terror' ain't going too well either because I'm terrified mate.
Tell me what we are doing to stop him wanting to do that. Start talking about peace whilst we still have the position of strength in negotiations.
Suppose we make peace and bin Laden completely disappears as a threat. That doesn't solve the basic problem of how we protect ourselves in a world in which the ability to kill millions is becoming more and more widespread. What is to stop other terrorist groups from going after the US? What is to stop an ordinary criminal from getting WMD and extorting money? If somebody had a nuclear bomb planted in NYC, could you afford not to pay him off? | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 7:47:48 PM |
Now that we are rapidly approaching the realisation that both the war in Iraq and the war on terror are nearly over and that America and it's allies have lost, is it time to start thinking about how we might win the peace and come out of this mess with our dignities and societies relatively intact.
I don't know where you acquired the misinformation about the war on terror nearly being over and the allies have lost. The War against Saddam and his Regime was accomplished back in 2003 where have you been? The War on Terror will never be over as long as we have groups such as Al Qaeda and Hamas. You might not be aware of this but we have Military and allies in Iraq who are working very hard to establish Peace in Iraq and Afghanistan. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 7:59:26 PM |
Tell me what we are doing to stop him wanting to do that. Start talking about peace whilst we still have the position of strength in negotiations.
Peace is not a word in Terrorists vocabulary. The only thing we can do is prevent attacks by using counter-terrorism tools that we've had in place since post 9/11/2001. Hopefully the next administration will continue to be pro-active and continue using the same tools that have prevented another attack on the USA. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/1/2008 8:03:05 PM | | I'm headed to Vegas and putting my money on the odds tha bin Laden (or someone real close to him) is the antichrist and we're in the 11th hour of Revelations. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 3:08:20 AM | namegame2, suppose we do make peace with Bin Laden et al. Then you have peace. Sorted!. If another terrorist organisation rises up against us then we stand to face them as we do with all our enemies. For now though, I would be happy with our current real threat being dealt with.
If we are concerned that other people might get hold of WMD and use them, then is the answer not to have any in the first place. Why don't we disarm them, after all we don't 'actually' intend to use them do we?. They are an abomination against the human race and we spend enough money on them to eliviate most of the problems of poverty and hardship around the world within a few short months if we spent the same amount on these wars against poverty as we do on Nukes, the war on terror, the war in Iraq / Afganistan and on going to the moon to collect dust samples.
The attack on the World Trade Centre was not so much an attack on the American people but an attack on your wealth creation system. In Islam it is considered a form of worship to create wealth. It is not your wealth that your enemy hates it is what you have done with your wealth that was attacked not you.
It's hard to build an intercontinental balistic missile in your bedroom, but you can make a suicide vest if you look it up on the internet. We have to get serious about the battle to win hearts and minds because we are losing it right now.
Your suggestion that NYC might be the next target is, I suppose, as good a guess as the next mans. Scary isn't it?. Our strategy to prevent these attacks reminds me of a game played at childrens parties over here where we blindfold a child and get them to try stick the tail on a picture of a donkey, often with hilarious results. Thats our what our anti terrorism strategy looks like to me. You have no idea when, or what, or how the next attack will come. The only thing that you do know with any degree of certainty is Why!. You know that, so thats what you should concentrate on fighting. Fight what you can see or your just shadow boxing.
The use of that boxing analogy should help you to see just how close to defeat we really are. If this was a boxing mach the referee would have stepped in long ago because like it or not America is on the ropes taking a hell of a beating with little or no capability to defend herself. Someone in our corner should be throwing in the towel right now. Your all groggy and punch drunck from 9/11. You need to sit down and start the healing process abnd give yourselves time to recover. Our enemies can see we are defeated and that inspires them on looking for that final knockout blow. And it's coming I can assure you.
Please do not assume that your enemy does not want peace. They have told you many times that the do but so far your too fired up sabre rattling and vowing revenge for 9/11 to listen. Islam is a religion of peace, a tolerant religion followed by hundreds of millions of good decent people who do not support what the terrorists are doing. They have to deal with their extreemists just as you do. I can recall sometime ago watching a programme on an American religious sect waving live Rattlesnakes about. Nobody really takes them seriously and most Muslims do not take Jihadist seriously. You didn't hear much about this before 9/11 did you.
The problem is that when you are a Muslim you have to accept that all other Muslims are your brother or sister. Imagine if you would that that poor woman killed with her children just recently had been your sister. How angry would you be. They feel the same pain you and I feel and Muslims around the world are duty bound to fight to defend her. To them it is an honour that will see them live in paradise for an eternity.
The are well motivated and will not stop until we take away the reasons for doing what they are doing. The voices of war and hatred are very loud right now and the voices of peace are drowned out. The voices of calm and reason are louder in the Muslim community than they are in yours. Thats why glamourgirl6 can see no end ever coming. Because she hears no peace plan being discussed.
My brother has served in Iraq and Afganistan as have many of my sons friends and family friends, just like they did in Bosnia and in Norther Ireland for 25 years. I know they are fighting for peace. I support them. I am trying to help them in the best way I can and I believe that that is by trying to start the peace talks now. I am not saying these things to upset or offend you, I am telling you the truth. We need to start the peace process right now.
In the 1960's your parents stood up for peace in Vietnam and other places, free love and all that, why are the people who want peace not being heard anymore?.
Saddam was removed some time ago now, WMD or not. Why are we still there? We have turned a peacefull country who posed no threat to anyone into a hell on earth. We here in the UK are just as much to blame as anyone else, maybe even more so given our history in the middle east. We have no intention of deserting you and will stay with you right til the very end because thats what friends do. It just that I'd like that very end to be sooner rather than later. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 4:05:08 AM |
I'm headed to Vegas and putting my money on the odds tha bin Laden (or someone real close to him) is the antichrist and we're in the 11th hour of Revelations.
I'll take that bet, when do I get to collect? | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 4:47:00 AM | | I'll take it too. Sounds like a sure fire winner to me. will you put me $5 on and I'll give it you back out of my winnings. Thanks | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 7:57:03 AM | The War in Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror, or Bin Laden, or oil.
Its entire purpose was to send a message to the world. That message was, 'The U.S. is the only country that matters. We'll do what we want, when we want, to whomever we want. International laws and treaties no longer apply to us. Our attack on Iraq is a demonstration of that fact. Beware! And obey!'
The people in the current administration had been planning to attack Iraq for a decade. Although they didn't keep this secret, they did keep it quiet. And few people bothered to look up this fact. The people in the administration kept it quiet because they knew most Americans, even the most conservative, would object to spending money and blood on empire building.
9/11 changed things. It frightened the wits out of most Americans. Not surprising. Many Americans have trouble believing the rest of the world exists. 9/11 slammed home that there is a rest of the world. Striking at what amounts to a religious monument increased the effect of this disconcerting and frightening event.
This fear naturally made Americans of all stripes band together and look to their leaders to give them answers and comfort. They got that. Unfortunately it was false answers and false comfort. Their leaders used a national tragedy to advance their own political agenda and get America behind an entirely illegal action unrelated to the attacks on the WTC.
Shrugs. Such things have happened before throughout history. They will undoubtedly happen again. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 10:01:46 AM | Well...back from Vegas. Wow! What an eye opener.
Here are the Current Opportunities:
First, I must explain that there is a thread here (I forget the exact title) in which I am still asking... 'Who exactly - specific names- are the Neocons and what, specifically, are the crimes committed that some feel they need prosecuting for'. Keeping in mind that if ONLY Republicans and/or right wingers are included that History will show left wingers and/or Democrats, Independents, etc. will be guilty of same said crimes.
Soooo with the above said, here are the Vegas Odds of 'losing the war v winning the peace'. Odds are still being determined. Bookies taking suggestions as to what they should be.
1. The neocons are the antichrist and the terrorists are the second coming of christ.
2. Christ ushers in peace in his second coming following discovery that the democrats are the antichrist. McCain is keeping his mouth shut so his wife doesn't give him 'the evil eye look' for any future comments.
3. Bush is the antichrist and Obama is the second coming.
4. Bill Clinton was the first head of the beast and once chopped off (retired), Hillary is the regrowth (2nd head). Obama is the latest on a long string of false prophets.
5. Bin Laden, S. Hussein, etc. etc. are included in the list of the false prophets.
6. We are now in the 11th hour and 55 seconds of the End Times.
7. Two Political Forum Participants are the real prophets, will be beheaded and All helll is already in the process of breaking loose. (the 2 prophets are still unknown and the bookies are taking additional odds on who they are).
Will keep Ya'll posted on updates. My doggie speaks 5 languages fluently and he's telling me he need to go wee wee in all languages. Must need to go outside really bad.
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 11:22:28 AM | [Suppose we make peace and bin Laden completely disappears as a threat. That doesn't solve the basic problem of how we protect ourselves in a world in which the ability to kill millions is becoming more and more widespread. ]
Yup- the millions have been killed- by us!
It is shocking to me how well this "New Pearl Harbor" has worked. If Osama is the big bad evil, why didnt we go after him? Why, when Afghanistan offered to hand him over to a third part (country) did we not accept? Why did the White House continually block the 911 commision's investigations?
The reason we as a country to not go after peace is we do not want peace! Peace is very, very bad for the millitary industrial complex. Remember when Clinton started acting slightly sane and started closing bases and lowering the budget for the military? The US spends more, and a lot more, than the rest of the world combined on the military. Yet millions do not have access to health care. Does anybody not see how insane this is?
Islam is a peaceful religion. I know you think that is crazy but it is. Have any of you bothered to even ask yourself why anybody would be willing to blow themselves up to make a point. What is it about what we are doing out there in the world that has made us a target for people who have nothing else to lose?
This BS about them hating us for our freedom is ridiculous. I can not believe anybody would actually buy that line. It is so simplistic and ridiculous.
I guess it is easier for Americans to believe that we are the good guy and they are just pure evil. I guess when the TV and the neocons keep saying it, people are pretty naive.
So did you hear how the Pentagon had hired all those retired military guys to act as "analysts" and go on the news and give the pentagon approved talking points to help get us into this war as their own "little" propaganda machine.
Americans are so gullible. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 1:27:11 PM | Stella I'm sorry too correct some of your point. Sudan offered Osama to Bill C not Afganistan. The base closures were a result of the BRAC commission started during Bush Srs term.
The 9/11 commision was thought to be a poitical hatchet job and not an unbiased investigation, it turned out to be remarkably nonpolitical.
I have no idea why we didn't take out Osama before 9/11. We knew for a fact he was a huge threat. Col Oliver North put up a 10 thousand dollar security system at his house because he was worried his family would be targeted after Iran-Contra.
The reason they hate us is that they've been indoctrinated to. Their own governments who are supposedly allies indoctrinate hatred against the unbelievers. Don't forget Darfur, where the Muslim government is killing pagans as well as christians.
They also have a population problem, their birth rate is twice ours and 3 times that of Europe. They have undeveloped economies, they make nothing, they have to import everything. They are bringing more kids into a society without anything for them to do. No jobs and no reason to work because of the oil money. They are bored disenfranchised twenty somethings being led around by fanatical believers in hatred.
Because the Koran is so easily twisted by the fanatics hatred it's been the pretext for 1300 years of bloodshed in the middle east. That blood shed isn't new, it's just spreading to our shores. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 1:34:44 PM | OMG- you have got to be kidding me.
You want to count the years of blood shed inspired by the bible?
And here we were sitting on our hands minding our own business and these nasty Arabs decided to teach their children to hate us for no good reason what so ever just because we are free. Load! | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 1:51:12 PM | No really, Stella explain to the Hindus why the Muslims killed so many of them. Every bit of land occupied by Islam was Christian or Hindu and taken forcibly. Often bloody tortures and beheading followed battles. At one battle 10000 Cristian knights and unknown numbers of men at arms were "beheaded" the heads were stacked in pyramids. And this was done before the Crusades.
I was once very pro-islam because by and large they are conservative family value types. They don't much like the liberals and the slime we have in our media. Then 9/11 happened and I started reading the history of Islam. So I'm not sure you will find much to support that they are a religion of peace.
Whereas Christianity has a long history of absorbing cultures through peaceful measures. Like the Irish the Germans and especially the VisiGoths. Please don't take my word for it read some historical accounts written by Hindus or Africans. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/2/2008 4:16:19 PM |
namegame2, suppose we do make peace with Bin Laden et al. Then you have peace. Sorted!. If another terrorist organisation rises up against us then we stand to face them as we do with all our enemies. For now though, I would be happy with our current real threat being dealt with.
If we are concerned that other people might get hold of WMD and use them, then is the answer not to have any in the first place. Why don't we disarm them, after all we don't 'actually' intend to use them do we?. ...
There are already plenty of other terrorists organizations out there, some actively against the US and some with their attention focused elsewhere. Are you aware that the FARC in Venezuela has been holding Americans captive for over five years now?
You say please do not assume that your enemy does not want peace. I ask you in turn to not assume that they do. Motives are complicated things. North Korea could have had peace decades ago. But as long as they keep the prospect of a massive anniliation of South Korea a believable possibility, they can extort money and food and continue to engage in counterfeiting and drug smuggling.
As for getting WMD, I'm using the term broadly as mass destruction, not neccessarily nuclear. I don't think the threat is from somebody obtaining *our* WMD, but making their own. You say the solution is to dismantle our arms. Fine. How does that prevent people from crashing commandeered planes into cities? Or a guy from buying a ton of fertilizer and blowing up a city block? Of a hacker from bringing down the nations electric grid? Or somebody releasing an engineered virus to kill a few millions?
All it takes is a committed nut with imagination, a little knowledge, and a lot of time on their hands. As these forums show, there are plenty of those around. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/17/2008 2:13:59 AM | Did I just mishear or did Bin Laden just offer a peace deal in response to Mr. Bush's 'Death to Iran' speech recently?.
A broadcast said to be from him was just played in part here in the UK which I can only believe was in response to Mr. Bush's speech in Israel.
What 'I' heard him say was that if we sorted the issue of a Palastinian state then the terror he represents would end. Sounds like a good deal to me.
We have waited a long time for this opportunity and many people have died but I think we would be remis in our responsibility to those who are still yet to die in this conflict if we did not at least consider this possibility for peace.
Should we throw the fullest support of the British and American people behind the efforts to create such a state by Tony Blair and others out there in the Middle East?. Should we help them take this 'war' back to the United Nations and in the 60th anniversary year of the birth of Israel should we ensure the birth of another great world state Palastine?.
Should it be a state that we rebuild for them?. Make their cities and schools and hospitals and social care systems the very best available anywhere and so make Palastine the jewel in the Middle East.
Should leave them with our greatest gift, democracy, and leave them to self determination safe in the knowledge that they see Britain, America and the west as a force for good not evil?.
In my opinion we need to make the voice of peace louder than the voice of war and in order to do that we have to send a signal to the world that is seen and understood as well as the message of 9/11 was. If we wanted to send a better signal to the world that we are committed to peace and an end to terrorI cannot think of it just now.
If we do not recognise this statement as terms for peaceful settlement then I fear it may it may be a prelude to another attack. Just so we know it's not going to end until Palastine exists and is free. Should we add to 'our' terms of the peace deal that we be allowed to take down the walls which imprision the children of Israel and set them free?
So America, is it to be peace or war? | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:19:12 AM | Where are you going to put this new Palastinian state? You forget that Isreal and the Palastinians claim the same ground.So who is going to tell the Isrealis that they must give up Jerusalem? Perhaps the same people who should tell the Brits to re-unify Ireland...
It doesn't matter anyway, because Hamas will never settled with the Isrealis. The Palastinians were offered near-autonomy in Gaza some years ago and they continued their rocket attacks and suicide bombings. They want nothing less than the destruction of Isreal. If Osama Bin Laden's real concern is Isreal, then why isn't he conducting terrorist operations there? You really think we should sue for peace with the world's most wanted man? | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:56:54 AM |
What 'I' heard him say was that if we sorted the issue of a Palastinian state then the terror he represents would end. Sounds like a good deal to me.
In spite of scores of complaints Bin Laden has, one of his stated primary calls to Jihad is US Bases on holy ground in Saudi Arabia. I've not seen AQ active in any way in or around Israel in support of the Palestinians. | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:31:32 AM | Well, negotiation (done properly) isn't a bad thing. There are injustices that must be addressed, and there are thing that could be done to perhaps find a third path out of all this.
There are, however, some things that are not negotiable.
The right of existence of Israel - No discussion on this, ever. We can negotiate illegal settlements on the West Bank, and other secondary issues - but not this. Anyone not in agreement with this is not getting a seat at the table - that's their ticket in.
And you are right about Bin Laden, he's got a good head on his shoulders, and isn't insane.
Btw, before we sit down to negotiate, there's something else on that table.
Bin Laden's head - on a plate. 
We cannot legitimatize the person behind the 9/11 attacks in any way without endangering ourselves. It is one thing to plan a terrorist attack, and quite another to plan one of that magnitude for loss of life.
As such, and due to that involvement, any person associated directly with 9/11 (in it's planning or operational stages) is either in custody - or at room temperature.
That's another non-negotiable.
Let's start there, shall we ? | |
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| Losing the war v winning the peace
Posted: 5/18/2008 5:00:21 AM | longshot61,
Yes I think we should negotiate with Bin Laden, even if he's dead. Those who rally behind the war cry of Jihad (and Jihad isn't really about religious hatred but about good) speak his name as their champion.
We here in the west, and particularly in America, have elevated him and his organisation into this position and unless we 'talk' to him then the war has no end. He spoke to the world on 9/11 and delivered his message of hate so that every human being on this planet has seen his actions and listened to his message. We have to send a message to the world that is every bit as jawdropping.
I'm not so knowledgable in Middle Eastern politics to be able to say if Hammas or anyone else have committed to fight on a 'no surrender' platform, but I know that many people in Northern Ireland on both sides of the divide used to talk in such language and now we have peace and reconcilliation.
I do remember reading a thread in here where Hammas offered a truce as they have many times before. We have been close to peace many times. Whilst a truce is not peace, it does show a desire for peace and an end to uneccessary deaths.
Like the people in Northern Ireland the people in both Israel and Palastine want peace and sooner or later some compromises will have to be reached.
Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived together for a long time. Almost all Muslim countries recognise the right of Israel to exist. Not such a giant leap from there to peace. No-one wants Israel wiped off the face of the planet. The only people you ever hear saying that are extreemists from all sides. It's not a desire of the majority of people in Palastine or elsewhere. The practicalities of trying to exterminate millions of people is beyond the capabilities of most people unless tactical neuclear weapons are used and guess who has them?. This war will not end with one side or the other exterminated. There will be survivors on both sides.
Bin Ladens head on a plate?. Even $60 Million reward didn't get you that Montreal Guy. Why not have him put in charge of third world development at the United Nations. Use his talents to our advantage, now that would be worth seeing. try to stop thinking about revenge and settling old scores. Both your country and mine have killed many hundreds of thousands of people prior to this attack. Should we also be beheaded and served up to those we agrieved. Now is not the time for vengance, it's time for peace. | |
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