| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 4:05:32 AM | In other threads, I have heard utter outrage about a Canadian law that can require step-parents to pay child support for children that are not biologically theirs. In these discussions, it's nearly taken for granted that this is unacceptable.
However, if you marry somebody, aren't you accepting their children as your own. At that point, don't you start treating and loving that child as your own? If you adopt a child (thereby accepting it as your own) with your spouse and later divorce (with your spouse having primary custody), you would be expected to pay child support. Why should this be different just because the child was with your spouse before you married?
Similarly, I've had friends who married people with kids, and after a divorce had no legal grounds for visitation. Once you've been a parent to the child, shouldn't you have all of the rights and responsibilities of any other parent?
(I mean no disrespect, so let's please try to keep the discussion calm.) | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:26:30 AM | I kind of agree with the basis of what you are saying, MalibuSteve .... but .... it is the biological father who should be paying the child support.
Picture the scenerio where a young man lives with a single mom for , say, 2 years. They break up and he gets with another single mother for three years. They break up and he gets with another single mom for one year. So, this man should pay support to EACH single mother that he lived with until all THEIR kids are 18 years old?
The only way I agree with a step-parent paying child support is:
- if they were in a long-term relationship ... a minimum of 5 years
- if the mother is not collecting child support from the biological father
- and if they are allowed to have an ongoing relationship with the children | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:45:15 AM |
The only way I agree with a step-parent paying child support is:
- if they were in a long-term relationship ... a minimum of 5 years
They're not his kids. Anyway, 5 years DATING, or 5 years COHABITING?
- if the mother is not collecting child support from the biological father
If she's not collecting from bio-dad, that's on her.
- and if they are allowed to have an ongoing relationship with the children
The only, and I mean ONLY, thing a thread like this will accomplish, is to make a few more guys consider single mothers to be lepers. Way to go.
Arlo | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:13:37 AM | Child support is the bio Dad's responsibility after a split, UNLESS a step parent chooses to voluntarily help out, say for a short time post split or wants to keeps sending Xmas pressies etc. Post split support from a step parent should be a freely given gift, not compulsory. Anything else is giving these utter deadbeat bio Dad's yet another cop out from their responsibilities, losers don't need any excuses yet society keeps trying to provide them.
A woman refusing visitation to a step parent who is close to the children and non-abusive seems to be punishing the children more than anyone. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:35:34 AM | I think a lot of people's opinions on this depend on which side of the coin they are on --the winning or the losing--
Here is a quote from another thread....by a male--yes a bio father...speaking of his child's new stepfather...
But in the mean time if ***** ever becomes an ex-daddy, I gunna tell the Child Support Agency on him. Kids aren’t just for Xmas are they | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:43:53 AM | I'm a Mum of an utter deadbeat - child support is like an urban myth that I hear other people get but would be so shocked if it actually arrived in the mail monthly, I think I'd honestly need medical assistance.
That doesn't change the principle of right and wrong though does it? Kids learn best by example. The one I want my son to have is that if he makes a child, he's darn well responsible for ensuring it's fed and that he can't pass the baton of responsibility onto some other poor sucker. I want to raise a man, and break the cycle of irresponsibility created by his bio-father. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:50:29 AM |
Because it's not your child.
Would you say the same thing if both parents had adopted the child together? If not, what's the difference?
As far as this thread being done, I searched, but didn't find any of them. (Maybe I just haven't figured out how to use this search tool very well.) | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:53:17 AM | Faithfey,
Do you mean ex partner of an "utter deadbeat" cos I am sure your child is not...Is he, she?
I can't get anything from my sons Mum, lety alone my ex partner......I have reached the point where if the money fairy came n dropped it off, I would send it back.
My two penny's worth is it's a stupid idea. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:54:04 AM |
I'm a Mum of an utter deadbeat - child support is like an urban myth that I hear other people get but would be so shocked if it actually arrived in the mail monthly, I think I'd honestly need medical assistance.
...I hear that..and I'd be in the hospital bed beside you lol...and I agree with this statement...
The one I want my son to have is that if he makes a child, he's darn well responsible for ensuring it's fed and that he can't pass the baton of responsibility onto some other poor sucker. I want to raise a man, and break the cycle of irresponsibility created by his bio-father. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:56:56 AM | I did mean the ex-partner is an utter deadbeat
My child is obviously the most wonderful responsible man to be, or will be by the time I'm done raising him  | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 8:02:47 AM |
That doesn't change the principle of right and wrong though does it? Kids learn best by example. The one I want my son to have is that if he makes a child, he's darn well responsible for ensuring it's fed and that he can't pass the baton of responsibility onto some other poor sucker. I want to raise a man, and break the cycle of irresponsibility created by his bio-father.
I'm not suggesting that the biological parent be stripped of all responsibility. Just like both the non-custodial parent and the step-parent were providing for the child during the step-marriage, why wouldn't they both willingly choose to support their child after? (And I stand by my argument that once you've accepted and begun raising that child as your own, biology is irrelevant; you are a parent to that child.) | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 8:45:01 AM | I'm not suggesting that the biological parent be stripped of all responsibility. Just like both the non-custodial parent and the step-parent were providing for the child during the step-marriage, why wouldn't they both willingly choose to support their child after? (And I stand by my argument that once you've accepted and begun raising that child as your own, biology is irrelevant; you are a parent to that child.)
This is where you run into problems Steve. "once you accept change" as in right away. Not a chance this leaves people vulnerable to predatory parents using the system as a cash cow under the guise of looking out for children. If you don't "strip" the bio parent of right that means you have a custodial parent collecting CS from 2 or more people. This double-dipping only encourages abuse. Like "career co-habitators".
Where any adopts a child they should have the same responsibilities as a natural parent. This isn't pet adoption it is a serious and (atleast should be) lifelong commitment.
Do you really think a non-biologically involved spouse is really a "parent" after a few short years. Remember they are still newlyweds here, not the best crowd to discuss how much newlyweds have to learn by the time they really know eachother honestly. So lets say you date someone for a length of time thing seem to be going well and you both decide to cohabitate. Within a year or even a few months you have seen behaviour that shocks you and attempts to reconcile have not worked so you move out, does that really make you a "parent" I don't think it does, it might mean the person was foolish but that doesn't call for a set of "punitive damages."
And punitive is exactly what it is in short term relationships. The responsibility of raising a child is 1st and foremost that of the kids mom and dad.
This law was designed in response to one single case between two individuals that had a LONGTERM relationship (15 years or there about, my memory is a bit rusty). The attempt was to reconcile the existing laws for cases where step-parents actually did have the time to fit fully into a parenting role. It makes no provisions for short term nor has any balance against abuse(the goverment actually encourages abuse of this law when the natural custodial parent is on welfare)
Edit: That is not to say that some don't willingly pay to help out with kids that aren't theirs(hell i help out complete strangers that way when I can), but it should not be mandated that others become responsible as a parent for someone elses child by association. And why should it be legal and even encouraged at times for one person with one child to collect child support from as many people as possible? "Trading up" Dads would be bad enough, but half a dozen "dads" sending cheques every month for one child? That takes away from what the sucker-dads will have to offer their own children.
Sorry {insert child name here} no summer camp for you this year. We don't have the money left over after I pay someone I dated years ago for a kid she had with somebody else.
So as before voluntary support for non-bio, non-adopted children is one thing, the mess we hve here is quite another. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 8:58:38 AM | I think that making ex-step parent's responsible for child support sadly only leads to marriage/divorce situations based out of greed. I don't think it is right at all...but then I do believe there should be some measure of allowed/expected responsibility on quality step parents who have chosen to become a parental figure to a child. Responsibility comes in many forms though, and from my experience, being a consisitant figure in a child's life is FAR more effective and influential then anything of monetary value.
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 9:20:06 AM | WEll....I'm in the US. When Welder's ex filed for child support they do a 'worksheet' to figure up how much each party is responsible for. Now, there IS a section where it asks for other spouse's income. We left it blank. When we went to see the child support worker, she asked why we left it blank and I told her that it was no one's business except mine how much money I made. She let it go b/c she knew I wasn't going to give in.
What I find amusing is that Welder pays $600/mo in child support but on the worksheet he is only responsible for $150/mo for OUR child. So how is it that those kids are 'worth' $300/mo and mine is only worth $150/mo? The other thing I find amusing is that she still lives with mommy and daddy (she has NEVER lived on her own and she just NOW got her 1st job and no....you can't chalk it up to her trying to get an education, because she hasn't done that either)....but when I asked whether or not the fact that there were THREE incomes in that household would make a difference...the answer was an affirmative 'NO'...yet, they wanted to know MY income.
I have absolutley no relation to those children. I am not responsible for those children in ANY sense of the word. I wasn't around when they were conceived. So, as far as I am concerned I owe them NOTHING. The only thing that I MIGHT 'owe' those children is to treat them in a respectful manner and if they are ever in my household, make sure that no harm comes to them.
~Welder's Girl~ | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 9:51:27 AM | Well, a good comprimise that I have heard for the law in Canada is that the step parent only pay the difference between what the bio parent pays or would be paying.
For example if I lived with a single mother she had two kids, I made $50,000 per year and the bio dad made 40,000 per year. The bio dad would pay paying lets say $400 per month, my rate would be $500 per month hence I would only be responsible for the difference of $100.00 per month.
Even if the bio father was not paying then I would still only responsible for the $100 per month since it is incumbent on the bio mother and bio father to provide that portion not for the step parent.
The manner in which it works now, if the bio father is not paying I would be on the hook for the whole $500.00 which to me is not fair since the responsibility has to be placed originally on the bio parents. On top of the that if the mother is on social assistance in Canada and you live together the government will hold the mothers welfare cheque essentially hostage until she signs over the right for the government to chase the step parent for the whole amount. Then when the government collects it they reduce the mothers welfare cheque by the amount of child support collected.
It is one thing that I look when deciding if I am going to date a single mother, does she collect support from the bio father because with paying child support for my bio daughter I simply cannot afford for another relationship to fail and give her the same quality of life she has now. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 9:53:31 AM | Sorry, OP, I missed another one of your points. About accepting them as my children. FOR ME, I accepted the fact that he HAS children and that he is financially responsible for them. They are NOT my children therefore I feel no obligation to them whatsoever. I would treat them in the same manner that I would treat my best friends' children. Nowhere have I ever agreed to be financially responsible for a man's child/ren from a previous relationship.
Also...about him only being responsible for $150/mo for our daughter...she is also a special needs child and I receive NO form of government assitance. So, if I sound 'bitter'...in part I am because even though I agree he should be responsible for his other children the courts have ass reamed us for a huge portion of money every month...money that, quite honestly, needs to go towards my daughters care since she has extra needs that most children don't.
~Welder's Girl~ | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 10:14:20 AM | However, if you marry somebody, aren't you accepting their children as your own. At that point, don't you start treating and loving that child as your own? If you adopt a child (thereby accepting it as your own) with your spouse and later divorce (with your spouse having primary custody), you would be expected to pay child support. Why should this be different just because the child was with your spouse before you married?
Well, I can only speak to my own experience with this, but it may help you understand why it is unacceptable in many cases.
My ex and her son moved in when he was 4. We lived together 8 years and had two other kids. When she left, she hit me with support for our two and my stepson. The biggest problem I had with this was that my non-biokid, saw his biodad regularly and the ex was already collecting support, when she could, from the biodad, just not as much as she could get from me because I made more money. Biodad had rarely paid his support either, so she saw it as a way to get some extra.
Sure, what I paid for my stepson was what I would pay in full minus what the biodad was supposed to pay, but it still pissed me off that she could double dip with the court's blessing. I don't pay for him anymore since his primary residence is with his biodad now.
Anyway, my stepson still lives with me part-time during the weeks when his brothers are here. He prefers my place to either of his bioparents because both of them are a bit flaky around the edges. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 11:21:32 AM |
Would you say the same thing if both parents had adopted the child together?
Adoption is an extremely different circumstance than paying child-support for a child you did NOT adopt.
If not, what's the difference?
The adoption. I should think that's obvious.
Arlo | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 11:26:21 AM | **Would you say the same thing if both parents had adopted the child together? If not, what's the difference?** It's a huge difference: If I become the adoptive parent of a child with my spouse, that child is MINE! I am his/her father; I have primary authority (along with my spouse) over his/her upbringing.
If I marry a woman with children from a previous relationship, and we later break up, why should I be asked to support that child financially -i.e, as an obligation- if:
>>The biological father determines -as is his right- that said child will be raised in a Faith other than my own?
>>The biological father determines -as is his right- that said child (if he's a boy) will never be allowed to play football(hey, to me, this one is big)?
>>The biological father determines -as is his right- that overall, said child will be raised with ethical, moral, etc. values and mores that are in complete disagreement with those I have?
If I divorce said woman, I'm sure that I would maintain a relationship with my former stepchildren, if allowed; and I'm sure I would provide for some of my former stepchildren's needs...BUT ON MY TERMS, AT MY DISCRETION, AND OF MY OWN FREE WILL!! The biological father put that particular bun in the oven; he's the one that's got to pay the baker.
At the point of divorce, my title changes from "stepfather" to "friend." Last I checked, friendship is voluntary... | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 11:38:58 AM |
Similarly, I've had friends who married people with kids, and after a divorce had no legal grounds for visitation. Once you've been a parent to the child, shouldn't you have all of the rights and responsibilities of any other parent?
I agree with this to an extent. It depends really on how close the step-parent was to the child, what the child wants, and how long the couple was married. Additionally, how active the NCP is would have some affect on visitation.
In my experience, unless child support is paid, visitation isn't likely to be regular and the step parent will phase out the visits. Some times there's no sense in dragging out the inevitable.
I was married for five years (to a man I have no children with), my daughter was not yet two when we met. Legally, when our divorce was final, he had no rights or responsibility with regards to my daughter. I never kept her from him. I encouraged him to spend time with her when she asked to see him, but visits became less and less frequent over the last four years. My daughter is now 11 and it's been over a year since she's seen my wasband. I do think if he was required to pay some sort of maintenance, he'd still be seeing her regularly. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 12:22:45 PM | Welder, the reason why his ex got more than you is that the first child, whoever files first gets a higher percentage than the second child. that is interesting that you are with your bf and filed for support with him, that is something I never heard before.
I think this will vary in opinions since every country/state is different. For one, i didn't know that florida collects money from significant other as some parts of Canada do. I talked to my Canadian friend who use to live in Vancouver, she's never heard of these laws before.
I never heard of this til it got promoted a lot by johne102 lol, I'm sure he'll stop by in this thread sooner or later.
I have to say it is unfair to put the responsibility to the significant other/stepdad rather than to the bio dad who should take full responsibility. and if they can't collect, they shouldn't pin it to the S.O or to the stepparent. If the stepparent or S.O. wants to, then that's his/her choice to do so but it shouldn't be pressured or assumed. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 12:34:52 PM | Malibu Steve:
With all due respect sir, You make some of the same points womens grioups in Canada make when government re-examines this issue to make it more balanced. It is in the best interests of the child... look at how much money government saves with the system the way it is...the problem are those parents who know the law and how to use/abuse it. For example in Ontario Canada after 6 months of co-habitating with a parent and their children "cha ching" you are on the hook for child support..just 6 months. How much of a bond do you realy have with a child in 6 moths expecially if it is an older child/teenager?
There have been cases where women have dated men and had the man spend every weekend with her and her family. Bio dad gets visitation once or twice a month. Depending how how much/how many times during the week the man spends with the woman and her children the women have taken the guy to court to try to get child support. Now the same thing can happen in reverse if dad has custody.
It really just creates paranoia in some cases. Okay so if I marry/live common law with a woman and her children or 5 months and I leave or she leaves I may want to see the kids but have no legal oblication to pay support. If on the anniversary of the 6th month the woman leaves me for any reason even if she treated me like dirt...I still have to pay support. There are cases with 3 men payichild support for one child...how does that make semnse. Then we get into the visitation issue. You would be surprised how many parents try to fight the ex step parent and prevent them for having visitation rights saying it isa not fair to the child and can put them in a different home every weekend. Does visitation of the step-parent infringe on bio parents visitation? This part of the situation is a can of worms many parents do not want to deal with but still they want the support.
Let's say a couple has a child gets divorced when the child is 3 years old and then the woman gets custody. She marries someone else when the child is 6 years old. When the child is 10 mom and step dad get divorced and at age 13 mom and child live common-law with a man and 7 months later new step dad moves out. Now this 13 year old now has a visitation schedule with bio dad and 2 men in the role of step father one of who the child may or may not have bonded with. (And mom collects suport from al 3 men) Another issue in Canada is university educatiion...ex step parents are required to pay part tution and must pay child support until the child graduates or turns 25 years old. (Non custodial bio parents have to pay parts of this as well.) It is creating a situation where some single parents are even admitting to looking for someone else to help pay for the child's education. This entire situation is a real mess.
The problem is this situation can be abused and used as a "cash cow" The social issue it is creating is some people are examining if they really ant to be involved romantically with single parents.
I have no problem with visitation...but it does have it's headaches and paying for a child you have to fight and co-ordinate schedules to see can be difficult. You have to pay no matter what if you lived with the person and there kids long enough (each province in Canada had different lengths of time before "loco parentis kicks in.) It becomes easier to either just date or be friends with single parents or rule out getting romantically involved with them. Do you see what such situations create? In the early stages of dating you should not bond with a child but rather the person you are dating. Thus it makes some look at the situation and aviod it as I do not want to say to my future wife that we can't have children because my money is going to someone else's child.
This thread has been dome a few times btw. | |
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| Child support by step-parents
Posted: 5/3/2008 12:38:34 PM |
Welder, the reason why his ex got more than you is that the first child, whoever files first gets a higher percentage than the second child. that is interesting that you are with your bf and filed for support with him, that is something I never heard before.
This is not true in most of the US states...it isn't at all a lower percentage but rather an amount based on a number of factors, in Welder's case, it would be most likely based on the fact that the ex doesn't have an income (most states use some form of an income sharing model).
Father's income + mother's income= income amount to base "cost of parenting" on.
Then they break down a percentage of responsibility to each parent.
It doesn't decrease with for each subsequent child but the amount of money for support is lowered. If Welder and the ex made the same amount and had the same expenses (because child care is often taken into account in these calculations by adding it onto the top of the overall "cost of parenting"), the child support responsibility from her man would be the same for each child. | |
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