| "Independant" Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:13:29 PM | Here is something I am struggling with as well. My woman is principally al I want. But she is fiercely independent, will do anything to look like she needs me but in reality I am her son's mother, step dad, and playmate at the same time. She went out for an outing, well deserved, but when she came home she said she wants to sing in a band, etc. It would not be an issue if sh was actually pulling her weight at home. Now I feel that I also have to support her passions. Being a musician (used to be active) myself I do understand that she needs to have fun to be happy, but now it came to me that most of these things always seem to be at my expense. So I told her, you get your freedom when you are not relying on me all the time. Which raised the question whether she loves me or the things that I do for her. I am 43, she is 36. I had my fun when I was in my 20's. Am I wrong when I want stable family life? We live together, otherwise I would have pulled the pin a while ago. I do love her, hoping for her to come around.
Since i already know what every guy would tell me, the input of women may help me to get insights as to why I am getting this treatment. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:20:20 PM | Yep, it does sound that she is having her life and fun at the expense of you...She must be related to my ex spouse...
No you are not wrong to want to have a stable family life...
However I am not so sure that she is actually INDEPENDENT, considering you are the one footing the bill. If she were pulling her weight, and footing her own bill, and you were just nice arm decoration, that is independent.
If she has a child, her child shouldn't be pawned off on to someone else, while she goes out chasing after her dreams... Seems to me she sees you as her sons keeper, and she is interested in doing the things she feels she's missed out because of her child getting in the way...
I lived that with my ex... Wasn't fun in the least...
You are getting this treatment, because she probably slowly reeled you into her world, then before you knew it, she was off, and you were clamoring after her, to keep around... In the mean time you have become her bank, house keeper and babysitter...
Is that where you want to be??? | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:25:48 PM | Ok you want an honest opinion.....here it comes
You are allowing her to treat you that way! You are her built in babysitter she's got it made! You claim she's fiercely independent but if she really was....why does she need you to play mom, dad and stepdad to her kid! There's a difference between being independent and being responsible. When she decided to become a parent she gave up the option for certain independent ways.
Kids take a lot of work and sacrifice (I should know I have 5 kids) and I love the non-tangible rewards that come from sacrificing for my children. Sounds to me like she doesn't even enjoy being around her child. Why would you want to even love a woman like that. If she can't love her own child what the hell makes you think she would love YOU of all people!
If you want her to be independent move out and make yourself independent because you are just enabling her to be a poor parent! | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:26:21 PM | I am not so sure that she is actually INDEPENDENT, considering you are the one footing the bill
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I agree with that view....An INDEPENDANT woman (or person), doesn't need you for much of anything....except as a lover, mate, companion, etc.
but, I don't know if we are getting both sides of the story, before you make any rash decisions, or complain to her more, or make any ultimatums. Ask yourself, am I really all that I think I am? Otherwise, for forums sake, we agree with you she isn't an independant person. You are not the dad, unless you have raised this kid for years and there is no other dad around. Now, can you deal with that in a positive, loving, spiritual manner (ie, dont cause a big argument or point the finger)? | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:43:07 PM | Good thought. Of course I like to think that - if I provide and care - I earned the right to want a stable relationship in which my partner is just as giving as I am. So, here I am. Sometimes sour because I spoil her (thinking that if I treat her like a queen get treated like a king) to pieces and hope for love in return. I am not really that naive or stupid. And if it was not for the child that I grew to love lke my own I would have moved on already. On the other hand I do fight until the battle is won or lost and thus my efforts here in finding out what a guy like me does wrong. She says I am controlling (because I ask for stability?). My answer is always that stability is what is needed for the child and that freedom comes with responsibility. In other words, be a mom and you get your treats.
So, what am i supposed to do? | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:56:05 PM | You need to leave her for awhile and let her show you what she means by being independent. Reality is...she isn't independent if she has a child. You are just making it too easy for her to just get a way from her responsibilities. You are being an enabler. She probably is codependent on you right now and if you do leave she will fall apart and put a guilt trip on you.
You have two choices. One is to stay the way you are right now, tolerate it and never whine or bring it up again...that is YOUR choice. Or you put the reins back in her hands as far as her child and her responsibilities. My heart goes out to the child. Not you two at all. You are both using each other just in different ways. Unfortunately there is a child involved. I think you both are going to screw up this child when its all said and done.... | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 9:57:11 PM | If she isn't pulling her weight, she isn't independent, and in fact you've described an extremely DEPENDENT woman; a rather immature and irresponsible one at that. "Independent" describes someone who doesn't need help from anyone else; she couldn't live her irresponsible life without you, or someone equally enabling.
Adopt the child, then sue for custody.
Just my opinion. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 10:01:49 PM | Have you tried telling her how it makes you feel?
I doubt it. Part of the problem is that you don't respect her. This kind of thing
be a mom and you get your treats is not something you'd be saying in regard to a woman you regarded as an equal partner whom you held respect for. Things can spiral, it doesn't matter whether the chicken or the egg came first, that's the cycle of evolution and the cycle of evolution of your problem is that you treat her like a child and she acts like one so you treat her like one so she acts like one...
You aren't in control of her behaviour but if you notice that something you do triggers a reaction in her, you can avoid doing that.
When did you last relate to her as an equal?
Is she a lot younger or less well educated than you are -- is there some background factor that led to your role as a carer and provider rather than a partner?
It's not supposed to be an 'arrangement' whereby you give her money and a roof over her head and she gives you affection. You're supposed to relate to each other. The fact that you think a bunch of random women off the internet are going to understand her behaviour better than you, her long-term partner, can, is really sad. How come you don't know her?
My advice would be to go to her and apologise for not treating her like an adult and for making her feel that she has to rebel against you in order to feel like she has control. Talk about how you might work on becoming equal partners, on what she actually wants you to contribute to the relationship, on what makes her feel loved (I doubt that financial security is it). Don't fight -- that is extremely childish and destructive -- yo are both meant to be on the same side -- remember it.
It may be that things are too far gone or that she is simply a very childish woman who has never been able to relate to anyone in an adult way, but give her space to be your equal and see whether or not she can step up. This doesn't mean setting her up for failure hoping to prove how superior you are, nor does it mean acting like an over-protective parent with a child who might stumble at any moment. Sometimes people need to stumble in order to learn how to pick themselves up, dust themselves off and try again. You may not intend to be controlling but by being overly protective it can turn out that way.
Good luck with it. I hope things are not so far gone that you can't see the human being she is beyond her reaction to the situation/dynamic she has fallen into with you. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 10:19:20 PM | Thunderheart180...this is NOT an independent woman IMHO...this is an irresponsible woman. Wouldn't we all love to be footloose and fancy free and chase whatever the dream of the day is? But once you bring a child into this world, you have certain responsibilities and priorities that should be in place....that doesn't mean pawning them off onto someone else.
It doesn't sound like the "stable family life" you seek is very attainable with someone who can't put her child ahead of singing with a band.
Staying with her because of the child rather than love for her will not benefit the child in the long run. A truly stable family life is based on more than one party using the other...and the used party staying because of the child.
Good luck....
Rose Mary | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 10:41:26 PM | | You are confusing independence with selfishness and immaturity. Being independent means freedom from reliance on others, not freedom from the obligations, responsibilities and comittments he/she has accepted. It's easy to confuse the two because many people deliberately try to twist their lack of responsibility into a positive attribute by calling it independence. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 10:47:28 PM | I think that Rune3 has written such a brilliant response that you might even want to read it more than once. (I did). She's picked up on the undercurrent that is running beneath your words and your "kindness" and her advice is dead on the money!
Not that I can improve on her wisdom but I do want to add that it is really important for us to realize when we are "filling our own cup of ego" by doing for others. Unwittingly, we end up disempowering someone and they come to deeply resent the fact that they are insecure and the way we are treating them actually supports their own conclusion about themselves. If you treat her like an equal partner and expect her to behave like a grown woman who chose to have a son who needs her as much as he needs you, you may find yourself feeling a little less necessary but it's a good trade. Especially, if she "gets it" that you believe in her ability to be a loving, responsible partner.
I know this from personal experience... | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 11:48:30 PM | | There's a huge difference between independent and inconsiderate. Don't mistake on for the other. If your feelings are constantly taking second place to hers, you might want to rethink this relationship. Discuss your feelings with her in a calm and rational manner. Tell her that you feel she is taking advantage of your generous nature and that she is using you. Listen to what she has to say in her defense. Weigh your options and then decide what course you should take. Good luck! | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/11/2008 11:48:43 PM | | OP,In your honest opinion, can she sing, and is she good enough to carry her own in a band? Will she be a sterling addition to the music world, or will she increase social awareness? Or is this just another extravagant attempt to escape family responsibilities? | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/12/2008 7:13:07 AM | you can always hire a cook, laundress and housekeeper.... a womans ability to do these things has no bearing on her love for you or if there will be a stable family life... if she wants to sing, back her up in all ways you can... she may do well and become an extra income and pay for the household services and your early retirement.
long as she is producing money in her efforts you should have NO problems if she is in a band... if all she needs is a few dollars and months to establish herself... be there for her.
If she produces no money, its time for her to find something else to do.
This is why I won't date a woman unless she has an established profession... and no kids...so her finding herself does not come into play and I am not asked to do this kind of thing. But, since your not someone with that choice and already her partner, your job is to support her choices and even help her, even if it means self sacrifice and doing the housework. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/12/2008 7:58:36 AM | I used to shack up with a trashy white beyatch(only way I'll ever refer to her) and she once left me to move in a house with a bunch of other people that just mostly hung around and drank all day. She claimed she wanted her freedom and that she had never really been on her own. OK. This girl never had a real job, either. Always depended on someone olse to pay the rent and groceries. All she could offer was sex and fried chicken. How can she make the claim of independance under those conditions?
This is kinda where you are. She wants the freedom to do as she pleases(independant), without the restraints of responsibilities(childcare, paycheck,being a partner in life).
I say it's time for a talk, and be ready to pull the plug on this one. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/12/2008 8:32:54 AM | Dear rune3,
I think you have hit the nail on its head. What you described is the most accurate description on what actually transpired here, and you spoke straight to my mind. The word control came across in our (hers and mine) conversation a lot. So, perhaps there is something to it. Being an equal. The thing is that I do nt think that she is less as a person but rather as her being a mom. In other words, I am her boyfriend and do more to the childs welfare (for his sake only) than she does. It is simply not enough for me if she buys him toys all the time but has no drive to focus on him by REGULARLY spending time with him outside the home she has that opportunity. This existed before I moved in with her, so I cannot say that this is caused by my presence in this home. It bothered me that it is more important to her to fix her hair in the morning than making him breakfast and lunch for school. That sort of thing. I felt that I had to take control in that sense so that the young man has the care a child needs. She does not object. Trouble is that I do enable her that way. I did tell her many times, even skipped a day to let her do it but slapping together a sandwich in a hurry is not caring. She says she loves him but it is almost as if she never experienced a functioning upbringing herself - and we do not talk much about this. Now, if this is true so I will not blame her, she just does not know and perhaps seems overwhelmed with the simplest of things and responsibilities. She loves me, that I know (at times), just don't know why. My faults are equally simple. I am doing all that but then it gets too much and I want her to pull her weight. Be a mom, so that all I have to do is help instead of doing most of it. Her ex-husband complained about the same issues. I think sometimes we just want to make women happy and support them, make their life easier. She is 36, so putting her through a home making course and mom 101 might be too late and may cause our relationship to break. What mother would admit that she is not doing enough for her child. Now, of course I am complaining here. I have a hard time telling her these things in a way she can accept it, therefore she might thing I am above all of that. I am not! I think communication is the key - but how do you tell her gently? I tried a few times and she blew up, naturally. Perhaps you have the insights that I am lacking when it comes to telling a mother of two what she is not doing so well, in the interest of the child. Not that I otherwise think that this really my responsibility. I fostered kids for over 10 years, something that made me aware of what is healthy and what is not for a child. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/12/2008 12:31:14 PM | Hi thunderheart,
Just one thought: there are many ways of parenting and sometimes what you or I might think is selfish or irresponsible doesn't actually give the child any problems: he is likely to accept and love each parent on their own merits. Did you compare your father to your mother and wonder why dad never took any effort to pack your lunch for school or listen to your childish prattle, and think that this difference made your dad somehow less of a parent than your mum?
We are all different and we love differently. For some, loving means nurturing and taking care of and for others it does not but that does not make their love less valuable, nor does it make them wrong. Assuming that she does love him, this is the most important thing. Her love being different from yours, it is likely that she provides things that you may not even realise. Sometimes children need one parent to be more vulnerable, more emotional, less capable, because someone who is too good at things, too rational, too capable can be hard to relate to.
It's perhaps more awkward for you because you are strongly driven by a feeling of duty and responsibility to provide certain things for your child and the providing is something that you regard as very hard work, work that you feel should be shared. I think it is worth asking yourself how much of what you do really is absolutely essential for your child's welfare and remember that your view on parenting is only one view and that it's a good thing that your child's life is influenced by more than one set of ideas about how to be a parent. Perhaps one of the things his mother is showing him is that parents are human beings with feelings and lives too. It might help you if you stop pushing yourself so hard -- it does sound as if you are trying too hard -- have you heard the term "helicopter parenting"?
I'd suggest starting by looking for the positive, the things to value, the things that she does and the ways that she relates to him that you do not or cannot. Simply having a more relaxed attitude may be what she brings to the mix. I am sure there is something. Sometimes, when people who tend to try very hard and focus their energies very strongly are working with others, they struggle to appreciate what the others are actually contributing and risk turning what is supposed to be a team effort into a one man show ...before burning themselves out. Your approach sounds very similar to what mine would be and as such a focused/perfectionist/earnest "must do my best" type, I suggest that you need her help, not in helping you complete the list of tasks you have, but in helping you refocus away from the list of tasks and your own high standards to the people around you and your own life too, which is about more than just being "a parent" -- you are *his* parent and part of it is about being yourself and relating to him, not providing a text book environment.
I don't know it this helps, it's just some thoughts. Take any that are useful and leave the rest. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/12/2008 1:58:09 PM | Sounds like you have one of two things you can do...
A person that blows up certainly gets their way everytime... Therefore you can just accept the fact that she doesn't parent the way YOU believe she should, and unless you are interested in finding a different gf, one who takes care of their OWN children in the way that they should, just stop complaining.
If this is something that her ex spouse complained about the chances of her changing her behavior is next to none.
There are plenty of mothers that DO understand and are willing to change their lack of parenting skills, how ever as stated before, if her ex complained about it, she isn't one of them.
I stayed longer in my own marriage, because my ex wasn't there for his own son. It was hell, but since the boys mother abandoned him, and his father was doing a really great job of running around doing his own thing. I knew my ex was not going to do anything different, and no matter how much a grumped, quietly suggest, flat out pleaded, it didn't change anything.
Finally when his son was really full fledge teen, and could do battle for himself, I got ahold of his biological mother, and he was shipped off to live with her. It was heart breaking because he didn't graduate, messed around in drugs and alcohol, started getting his life pulled together. He and his GF got preggers with twins, they got married and now he is figuring out life...That and trying to parent his own father..
This is a source of contention, and you will probably NOT get past it, especially when it comes to the well being of kids. It is not hard to not take over the responsibility, and another person who doesn't seem to be particularly maternal will gladly hand that part over to the other person.
Have you considered counseling if you are wanting to stay? Because that is one of the other alternatives. | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/13/2008 8:50:34 AM | | Not only is she using him....he's an enabler. My bet is this guy as much as he wants out is going to stay with this woman for the wrong reasons which will ultimately make him resent her, he'll be unhappy and just keep complaining but not being pro-active about changing what he doesn't like about his life. He can't change her that's for sure! | |
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| Independant Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/13/2008 8:52:29 AM | If she is a user (I am not yet sure) then I think I have a lot to do with that by enabling it. If I had a woman that licks my feet and wants to make me her king i likely would enjoy the ride as well. My struggles are how to communicate to her that the inputs have to be equal or I back off to the point where I put myself in the first place and take more care of my own needs instead of hers. This can be really hard on the relationship because she may feel rejected, simply because after all I pampered her and now my needs would come first. Thats why an equal amount of input is what makes a relationship so much easier, less feelings of rejection, less wondering. For a guy to go to that extend to make it work I often had feelings of rejection myself. But I did enable her for sure, so most of the blame may be on me. I think in the end it is how we talk to each other and respect the other person, also to what extend I would be willing to relate and grow with her. Whether we are perfect is not the question, more like whether we are perfect for each other. Obviously I am seeking help and I get so much great advise that I already implemented. Different points of view. After all, I am a guy trying to cope with the irrationalities of the female brain, lol.
I have more issues here, money is one of them. She is just so bad at keeping it in her pocket. But she admitted it and I think that by making the effort of effectively communicating she will come around on that as well. This woman that I love is a huge project!!! Just why do we sometimes love them so much? In my case...... you should see her. And she is smart, and human. And a pain... | |
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| Independent Woman - she is driving me into insanity...
Posted: 5/13/2008 10:54:07 AM | thunderheart180; re: msg 18 - It puts a father in a bad situation when a mother doesn't really want to be a mother unless she's in the mood to be (or doesn't understand what it entails) and you're looking at kids that need boundaries, guidance, care. It's hard to leave but you end up doing everything, and you know full well that if you did walk away they'd likely get neglected again so it seems like a waste of time.
my ex went thru this, first with his ex wifes own children (from two different fathers, he adopted them to give them some stability) and then with the two children she had with him...basically he was a glorified babysitter. Over time it escalated into a marriage (after all kids were born the married, not during) based on a promise from her that she'd do better if he married her - well all that did was give her something to hold over his head/threaten him with should things not go her way. It was a mess...to this day she's like a mirage on a cell phone that they sometimes talk to in person, and he's the full time parent in their lives...as he's always been.
Therefore I agree with the adopt/leave and take custody thing another poster mentioned earlier - but only if you feel that this dynamic can't be changed or improved upon. She's gotta want to take responsibility when you give it to her. If it wasn't there before, it might be because she's not interested in putting any effort into it. | |
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