| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 4:50:28 PM | I thought that this might actually prove to be a great topic for discussion. We started it in another thread, but I don't want to derail that one with this topic.
It's too important to overlook
Here's the initial inspiration for it, in regards to some rather radical statements from Jefferson that would probably cause some people to be highly upset if he was running for office today:
There would be YouTube videos running comments like this :
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Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.
Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
Every generation needs a new revolution.
I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
I have no ambition to govern men; it is a painful and thankless office.
I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another.
I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
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That last one ?
People would think he stole it off Reverend Wright ....
A guy who's against the aristocracy, priests , corporations, speaks of recurring endless revolution - and who is anti-war ?
Are you NUTS ?
A guy like that has NO place in American politics, nor anyone associated with him.
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So here's the topic for discussion, in two parts, if you want to discuss it.
1) Would those comments from Jefferson invalidate him as a candidate, if expressed today in a political contest ?
Remember, he is saying some rather radical things - if you read those quotes in today's world.
Banks are bad, priests are bad, aristocracy is bad, corporations are bad, war is bad ?
Could you get elected today saying that ?
Now back to Wright, and what he said:
2) What would have been Jefferson's reaction ?
Would he have come out in support of Wright - while also clearly not supporting him ?
Would he potentially have agreed on some points, while disagreeing on others ?
What would he say of the negative reactions and shock over Wright's statements ?
Would he argue that this would be wrong ?
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
- Thomas Jefferson
“God damn America … for killing innocent people.
“God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans.
“God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”
- Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.
What's Jefferson referring to, when he says that ? He's clearly implying that God might punish America for something ?
But what ?
I'm hoping this triggers some discussion, over a critical American value - the right to free speech.
What, if any , restrictions would Jefferson place upon Americans ? | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:24:40 PM | | Simple answer to your first question...There is no way Jefferson could be elected today. Jefferson was a very complicated, and arguably brilliant man,but his sort of thinking just wouldn't go very far in today's world even though he was spot on about a lot of things ( He also said "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency,first by inflation and then by deflation,the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered". One need only look at the US monetary system and the (Non)Federal Reserve to see he nailed that one).He would be getting attacked from all sides. Jefferson was a Deist who believed in a higher power, but not neccesarily a Christian and, let's not forget, the man who penned the phrase "All men are created equal" was a slave owner til the day he died.Did he think God would punish America for something? Maybe, or maybe it was his own conscience...For Jefferson, freedom,including freedom of speech, was for free men. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:28:48 PM | I don't know if Jefferson would have put any restrictions on America today. The things he said were when the country was in it's infancy, they were trying to break free of England's tyranny. So he was quite radical in his thinking, as I guess they all were. Would America be where it is today without them? Absolutely not. And I kind of wish some of them were still around to clarify some things, because we sure can bungle it up. I think it's a huge disservice to their efforts the way some people try to stomp all over the Constitution and twist it.
However, I think most of those things, if not all of those things ring true today. And I do somewhat feel we are trying to break free of tyranny. That's a bit of an overstatement, but the administration now is taking us far backwards, not forward where pretty much every American I know wants to go.
Just goes to show that wisdom is timeless. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:28:58 PM | wow. just wow. this is a horrible comparison. I will be doing a similar comparison soon. the one where I compare barack obama to jeffery dahmer. that is the only fair comparison. you have got to be kidding me MG. you are way too smart for this crap.
being the only historian of jefferson that I know of on this forum, I find this entertaining.
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:31:54 PM | LOL J don't get all riled. I think it's ok to look at this, because without Jefferson, Wright wouldn't be able to say the things he says. Neither would you or I. Are they alike? Probably just in outspokenness.
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:37:30 PM | | I will get a little riled. I have always advocated free speech. even if I don't agree with it. I was always the first one to get on people for calling obama a muslim. I was the first to get on people for judging his religion at all. it doesn't matter. but to compare either obama or wright to any of our founding fathers is insane. politicians nowadays belong in a cave when compared to the greatness of the founders. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:43:14 PM | Well yes they were great. They had convictions and they were not sleazeballs, no sellouts there. They just wanted what they wanted, to be able to live free.
I think there are more great things to come from some great people. You all know who I mean. lol So J how is it you think they are different in their ideals? I'm talking basics here. They all want to do what they think is right, they all have (what they think) are the best interests of the country at heart, aside from our current president, and they were all pushed to do this by their peers, except maybe Hillary. So aside from the sellout status and the taxing issue you have, how are the current candidates so much different? | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:43:14 PM | please enlighten us marquis since you claim "being the only historian of jefferson that I know of on this forum, I find this entertaining." Was anything posted above NOT spoken by Jefferson? Was it twisted out of context? His stance against the finance industry alone would have ground his campaign to a complete halt the day after he announced it! True, times have changed, but is Rev Wright's intent all that far from the truth? We spend billions on military development, yet we have poverty, hunger, illiteracy, ad nauseum. Wright is an angry man tilting at windmills, but his anger has merit. Tell us how Jefferson is so different?
(I mean TJ wanted to duel one of his political rivals -- a practice, while acceptable in his day, is hardly level headed!) | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:52:53 PM | What are the requirements for a person to be qualified for that title 'Historian of Jefferson'?
I'm sure I'm not one... but I might qualify for 'Historian of...' something else.
Maybe I'm a 'Historian of Vegetable Curry' or 'Historian of Cartoons' and didn't even know it!! | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:02:58 PM |
but to compare either obama or wright to any of our founding fathers is insane.
OK, let's look at it this way.
Obviously if Thomas Jefferson came back as Thomas Jefferson, he'd have an advantage.
But what it he came back as someone else, "his spirit" ( not really the word I want to use in this case, but I can't find the right one to clarify it at the moment) came back in another body and name.
If someone stood up and said those things, you have to admit he'd be really viewed as a radical - to say the least.
That Jefferson First Amendment monument I mentioned in the other thread is a great example of what I'm trying to focus on here. The local town council actually tried to restrict it, saying it was dangerous. People might post negative things about the council, or use it for inappropriate things.
The Jefferson people fought them - and won. 
So you can go there today, and write anything you want to write. You can stand there and say anything you want to say. And someone else can walk up and erase it, or disagree with you totally. The board is erased on a preset schedule, and no government authority can touch it.
Now obviously there are laws on libel, and that's one of the responsibilities that comes with free speech. You cannot say something that is untrue, and defaming.
But you can have an opinion on it, within those rather loose confines.
So in regards to Wright, I'd think that Jefferson would have been the first to stand up and go wait a minute - he's got a right to speak his mind.
And then he'd probably have agreed in some ways, and some things, and had major disagreements with other things Wright said.
On the other hand, I think something like Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority would have sent him into a rage.  I think the close ties between politicians and evangelists might do the same.
As for his comment on fearing God's justice, I think that might be understood if we look at the Jefferson Bible. He's removed Jesus's divinity, but let's his philosophy speak for itself. It's Jesus's words and actions - and that's it. No family ties, if you know what I mean
If that's the case, and Jefferson certainly seemed to think that doing that actually made Jesus's word more powerful, then I'd say that what he feared was that America was (or might be) forgetful of that philosophy.
Helping people, feeding the hungry, loving the unloved, remembering the forgotten, healing the sick....
These are things that are easily overlooked, when you start to "progress" as a country.
Those warnings he gave America certainly seem to point that out.
Aristocracies and banks aren't exactly the most Jesus like things around, you know ?
Wars aren't exactly what Jesus was preaching about either.
So , I'm not sure, but that's my take on it. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:09:27 PM | | Jefferson was a very brilliant communicator(just look at our DOE) however he was not the one who used such strong rhetoric in the first place. Sam Adams was a brilliant instigator who more often provoked the original patriots with such convincing communication.... | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:13:49 PM | These Jefferson quotes show wisdom, intelligence, and honesty. They show a higher regard for people than for corporations, a full understanding of the dangers of organized religion, and a reasonable alarm over the abuse of the capitalist system.
Speaking such truths in public, there is no way Jefferson could be elected - or even nominated - today. Instead, he would be branded a "godless Communist" and driven out of the country. It's a sad illustration of how low America has sunk, especially considering the potential it had at the beginning. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:26:55 PM |
this is a horrible comparison.
You're probably right. BUT it's a comparison borne out by the equally ridiculous media focus on a person who is not even running for office. What's worse, much of the populace seems to find this media circus affecting their decision-making. If the media were not stretching this tabloid material so far, I daresay MG would not be bringing up a stretch of a comparison such as this one.
In regards to Jefferson, he is being quote mined here. Guess what? So is Wright! Obama has basically disavowed Wright as a result of this onslaught from the media. Funny how they don't address this fact very much. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:33:35 PM | I believe the founding fathers would stand just as much a chance of being elected today. See, thing is I still believe in America and that the Citizens would listen and make their judgement call on votes... good or bad...as history would demonstrat...whichever the case it turns out to be.
I don't think we, in general, are ignorant or too far right or too far left. I think there are radicals (righties and lefties)...but, they are the minority. It doesn't take another revolution necessarily to maintain our values. We still have them. Don't kid yourselves. We are still here on these forums, debating issues. We are disagreeing with our Government.
As for Religion... wasn't it the intent of the Founding Fathers that we should have freedom of religion...not freedom from religion. Big difference.
If we quit twisting our views to fit into a far left or far right viewpoint, we might just find that the same ones who founded our Constitution would be electable today. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:38:06 PM | "I believe the founding fathers would stand just as much a chance of being elected today."
Ron Paul has basically the same ideology as the founding fathers. He was not elected. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:47:27 PM | I can't comment on wright. But as far as jefferson is concerned he was a forward thinker. He saw the US as an opportunity to create something new and something good and he saw all the things that would try and enter the political arena and destroy the freedom that your forefathers were trying to create such as religion and corporations. the revolution comment was not about starting civil wars it was a revolution of ideas. the god justice cannot sleep forever thing is just his hope that the way thing were going would change.
Unfortunately, everything he stood for has gone and everything he stood against has flourished and god's justice still sleeps.
If he was around today I would get american citizenship and vote for him, f*ck I'd campaign for him. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 7:03:50 PM | | I'd like to think it would be possible for the founders to be elected today,but let's remember that they were forming a totally new gov't following a revolution against a tyranical gov't(Wait, that's starting to sound familiar!),so they were laying their own groundwork. Today, the Constitution has ben so mis-construed by SCOTUS and the rest of those bozos on the hill that two hundred and some-odd years later, people are still arguing over what the founders intent was because,of course, we all want it to mean what WE want it to mean. Jefferson also said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism". Hell,that statement alone might get him added to the terrorist "watch list". | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/13/2008 10:07:12 PM | The difference between what Jefferson said in regards to basically America being punished for it's sins is that Jefferson was speaking as if we might be punished and it would be bad thing but probably deserving, with Wright you have him calling on damnation. Jefferson seems to speak with a sort of humility and a sense of guilt and sorrow while Wright is calling forth damnation because he feels persecuted. It's a huge difference while it might not seem like much.
There is no way any of the founding fathers could be elected today, the closest there was to any of them was Ron Paul, who ironically is pretty close to Jefferson politically, and didn't really have a chance. It wasn't because of the media or anything else, Americans today generally are much more in favor of a strong central government, even Conservatives, which is why one of the founders today would probably be labeled a kook just as Paul was. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/14/2008 3:58:27 AM |
As for Religion... wasn't it the intent of the Founding Fathers that we should have freedom of religion...not freedom from religion. Big difference.
I don't see how that's a big difference. Freedom of religion does not mean to me that you don't also have the freedom to not practice one. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/14/2008 6:05:22 AM |
We are still here on these forums, debating issues. We are disagreeing with our Government
One way "democratic" governments maintain control over the population is by allowing token dissent. Our debates on this forum are fun, and sometimes informative, but if we don't have any direct means of influencing the behaviour of government, don't kid yourself that they're any real sign of freedom.
freedom of religion...not freedom from religion. Big difference.
Actually, there is no difference. I don't have freedom of my religion unless I also have freedom from yours. If your religion has any ability to influence/control anybody outside your own faith, their freedom of religion is restricted.
If we quit twisting our views to fit into a far left or far right viewpoint, we might just find that the same ones who founded our Constitution would be electable today
The point you seem to be missing is that their views would be branded as "far left" today, and thus, they would not be electable. Americans treat their "founding fathers" as Christian treat Jesus: venerating them as figureheads while ignoring everything they really said, and would throw them in jail if they appeared saying the same things today. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/14/2008 6:13:11 AM | ok, bad choice of words, but I am a jefferson dork. I carry a $2 bill with me everywhere I go and I went to monticello every weekend for 2.5 years.
I have never said that wright couldn't speak his mind. in fact, the only time I stand up for obama is when wright comes up, or the false claims that he is muslim. my argument? WHO CARES? religion has NOTHING to do with leading a country. we need an economic leader, not a moral compass. this is why I hate the far right and their claims that this is a christian country. nope, lots of the founders were deists like me. MG, you mentioned paine. love him. have a copy of common sense, and the age of reason. I have a copy of the jefferson bible too. it's like christianity, if christianity were real.  I am sure that is going to piss someone off. | |
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| Thomas Jefferson vs Reverend Wright
Posted: 5/14/2008 6:24:48 AM | Jefferson couldn't be elected today. He was a man who preferred wisdom to Truth.
Wisdom is a slippery thing. It changes as the situation changes. It looks at the past, considers the present, imagines the future. It requires constant effort, a willingness to accept that it won't be perfect and an acceptance of the responsibility that comes with authority.
Truth is unchanging. It was True in the past. It is True now and it will be True in the future. It requires no effort, it is perfect and it requires no responsibility.
Most people prefer the Truth. | |
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