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Posted: 5/14/2008 6:18:08 AM | I was wondering... If what DesCartes says is right (About equalibrium of movement), then does this somehow apply to life's choices? Could Chaos theory actually be on something here? I ask because certain things also do not happen with any sort of justification whatsoever. Some people just die randomly without reason. Athletes die at 20, smokers live til 90.
What's up with that? | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 7:40:42 AM | Hm. Interesting question. While I'm not familiar with equilibrium of movement, the theory of randomness has made me think from time to time. What, exactly, is random, purely random (without any forces of intent acting upon it, whatsoever) and what just appears to be random, but is forced? I used to believe that just about everything in life is random, but then I retracted that view. The only things that we can think of as truly random would be things coming from nature -- say, tornadoes, storms, that sort of thing. But in human societies, in which most of us live, life is very much designed according to the likes and dislikes of whoever has enough power to make it so. Genetics - a product of nature - adds randomness back into our very human, remodeled world. Hence why some "smokers live till 90" as you pointed out.
An interesting topic for sure! | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 7:57:59 AM | Both of you named things that just appear random because you don't understand them.
Weather is NOT random at all...it is actually very predictable. Our ability to predict it is limited by our knowledge. But actually...we do a pretty darn good job.
And smokers that live, athletes that die, again, not so random, but limited by our understanding of health.
Did you know that smokers are less likely to get alzheimers? Yes, it has a protective factor, now how weird is that?
There's SO much we don't understand about the interaction of our environment, behavior, and genes.
People used to think your genes pretty much predetermined how you'd turn out... Not so. genes turn on and off according to all sorts of things environmental. Those who spend part of their early life in a northern climate are more likely to get multiple sclerosis... strange, huh? But of course not everyone from Ohio gets MS. Nor do all siblings in an Ohio family when 1 has it.
It's not random though...we just can't understand it.
Another example: some ppl in a climate where malaria is rampant die, and some don't. Why? Hmmm...must be random. Well, no, actually, it turns out that having 1 gene for sickle cells is protective for malaria. 2 genes are not, 0 genes are not, but 1 is. Go figure.
Kaylie | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 8:00:18 AM | | In a sim I used to play, characters had a few jokes/ramblings. One of them could be, "I feel that I'm not in control of my destiny. Like I'm being controlled by an invisible hand." | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 8:45:26 AM | newwestgirl wrote:
The only things that we can think of as truly random would be things coming from nature -- say, tornadoes, storms, that sort of thing These things are far from random, simplest example is the seasons, winter it's cold and summer it's warm. tornadoes rely on a complex variety of conditions like warm air, cross winds and surface temperature.
kayliecat wrote:
There's SO much we don't understand about the interaction of our environment, behavior, and genes.
explains why things aren't really random, lack of knowledge.
I'm sure some posters would argue ABSOLUTELY nothing is random, however, the order that we post these replies is that random? or just an unfathomonal number of events coming together to determined the order in which we reply? | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 1:57:35 PM |
I'm sure some posters would argue ABSOLUTELY nothing is random, however, the order that we post these replies is that random? or just an unfathomonal number of events coming together to determined the order in which we reply?
Neat question... But if an outside observer were to watch our paths in a juxtaposition style, they would be able to predict which order the posts would be... Of course another pattern presenting itself to the pattern could look like chaos or randomness, like if someones keyboard went down... But even that is caused by something.
If something has a cause, I don't think it could be truely random. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 3:42:12 PM | Well I guess that depends on your belief. For centuries, there has been a fight over events: Are they random or determined? If determined, is there an existence of free will? If random, can God exist?
From what I know and what many philosophers would also say, I only know myself. I can control what I do and what my body does, but there are certain things I cannot.
Is the conscious mind the only mind? Is it really separated in 3 parts as Freud suggested?
So we could argue that everything is determined, but we are just not conscious of it nor do we know enough to explain "random" events.
Also, if we do have random events, how can we choose or decide as everything unfolds randomly? Is it timing? Do we choose or decide only when given? Then when will we know the next time we have an opportunity?
I really don't know what to believe myself. All I know is that It comes up every once in a while when I just sit down and think. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 4:54:52 PM | I think Freud was over rated.
So we could argue that everything is determined, but we are just not conscious of it nor do we know enough to explain "random" events.
I don't know... If this is true, it's already been determined what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow... I haven't made up my mind yet so I'm pretty sure it's up in the air. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 7:32:18 PM | "I think Freud was over rated."
ya think?  If he wrote that crap today he'd be laughed out of academia!
This thread reminds me...
Old story from my old church... One morning the bell choir played. They played, well, a song. However, it went awfully. Afterwards the minister's wife, a really nice lady, came up to someone and said how beautiful the bells were...they sounded like...
WINDCHIMES!!!!!!
 THat is NOT a compliment to someone trying to play a song!
Kaylie | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 8:29:08 PM | Actually I think Freud is Underrated. Many modern psychologists trashed his work and kept his novels as only novelties. Something to look back.
I think since he is the founder of psychoanalysis, he deserves some credit. There's alot of shit that really doesn't make sense, but I do think that his theories on human beings is accounted for.
He may have only been in private clinics and he may have not gotten the highest degree possible, but he did find out a lot about the human mind that we didn't know prior.
So I think it's about 50/50. Give him credit, but don't give him too much. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 8:36:45 PM | If it is already determined and you are unaware of it, it would be a different story though. That would mean that there could be something determining your breakfast without your control. Despite what you decide, you might end up with hashbrowns and wheat toast, no matter how much you want bacon.
ex: I want bacon. I have no bacon nor do I have money. I have wheat toast and hashbrowns so I'll eat that instead.
or you could change that with your determination:
I want bacon. I have no bacon or money. I'll steal money and buy bacon -or- I'll steal bacon too and pocket the money.
I would say that the world is controlled by a universal Omnipotent force and it would be up to us to us our force to push back or take it as it is.
Does this make any sense? I hope it somehow does :P | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 9:09:18 PM | Handbook
I often consider that we are ALL at risk on this big Blue orb, though
we do react to outside stimuli, choosing wheat toast over bacon as a matter
of economics, while all this is going on, out beyond our Milky Way are
events that may preclude our randomness, say an errant planet gets bumped
and is on course to land randomly on your breakfast plate.
[Nemisis for breakfast, anyone?]
Lots of pioneers were not taken seriously, Freud isn't alone in that respect. | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 11:52:56 PM | And that is the strangest thing. Descartes said that when matter in space moves in one direction, there has to be an opposing and equal force pushing back. In Science, we know that if there is a planet, star or whatever that is moving in one direction, there's an equal amount going the other. In a deeper sense, when a large object moves in one direction, a smaller object must travel a greater distance in the opposing direction to keep up with equilibrium.
He thought of this before science stated so. Is this man a genius or what? | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 1:11:59 AM | | Invisible hand? No. More like an invisible foot. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 1:15:55 AM |
I would say that the world is controlled by a universal Omnipotent force and it would be up to us to us our force to push back or take it as it is.
Is this like Buddhist monks practising non action to counteract the actions of previous lives?
The whole idea of a omnipotent force seems silly. It reminds me of the god in the old testament. If man got out of line then he would correct them by what ever means necessary. Being that version of god was the same today as yesterday it is quite evident that it isn't true.
However the idea that there is an equilibrium makes sense. If your omnipotent force was energy with no intelligence but was the very life force of everything us acting out of sync with it would cause many of the problems we see today. But would it be omnipotent? As our population grows our world seems to show us that their are limits and even though we have not reached them we are seeing signs of those limits.
If we had a omnipotent force the world we live in would find a new equilibrium as we grew wouldn't it? But the oposite seems true to me. There is a limited amount of life force on this planet and finding that balance is what we should be aiming for instead of growing exponentially. If we like you say push back we would be manipulating energy like a resource. It is quite clear that this action has consequences which have been modelled by man in his exploitation of the natural resources of our world.
I would think that if there is a force or energy we should be looking to be in harmony with it instead of imposing our will because our will seems to be concerned with our immediate comfort desires and wants instead of needs of everyone and everything that the life force permeates. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 6:18:09 AM | I think religions assert that things like us are supposed to be the equilibrium between things like god and the devil and that god and the devil are portrayed as unknowable for a reason.
Like mankind was scared shitless that one could be defined over the other and it would sway our direction, but allow us free will as a result.
I really don't think the choices we make are random. There are just a lot of factors involved in thought patterns. But I have no idea how true randomness could even be achieved yet. What if everything were just really complex and initially starts from a decision based on everything that works in the viciinity, and everything in the vicinity that could possibly work but won't.
You'd probably have a pool of creepy possibilities lying in waiting. Licking it's lips. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 9:15:48 AM | "Invisible hand? No. More like an invisible foot."
Hmmm...that foot must be what I keep feeling on my as*s.
LOL Kaylie...do I laugh or cry? | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 10:38:22 AM |
I was wondering... If what DesCartes says is right (About equalibrium of movement), then does this somehow apply to life's choices? Could Chaos theory actually be on something here? I was thinking about this the other day. If everything is predictable and follows strict rules, that describe everything, then even the behaviour of neurons in your head would follow those rules, and would be completely pre-determined. So serial killers would have had to kill their victims at that time and place. There is no reason to suppose they would kill again. Even if you said that those rules included that serial killers would probably kill again, it's not their fault. It's because of the predetermined ways that the neurons have to fire. They have no choice in how they act. So you couldn't send serial killers to prison. You couldn't send violent mental patients to psychiatric wards for the same reason. You could lock them up to protect society. But you couldn't call anyone crazy, and you couldn't say anyone did anything wrong, because they HAD to. They had no choice.
I thought about this a lot. if we can charge people with being responsible for their actions, like criminals, or that some people are not in control as much as we are, like the mentally ill, then the only way I understand this is that there must be something that we can choose, that not everything is predictable.
Neuron synapses are predictable by laws of physics. So either laws of physics are not complete explanations, or neuron synapses are predictable.
I did wonder how this might be possible. But considering that Quantum Physics says that we cannot really know the exact position and velocity of a single electron, then maybe there is a bit of leeway with each electron. Not much leeway, but considering there several electrons for each atom, and there are trillions of trillions of trillions of atoms in a single dot on your finger, that are all interacting billions of times a second, that adds up to a heck of a lot of leeway.
I ask because certain things also do not happen with any sort of justification whatsoever. Some people just die randomly without reason. Athletes die at 20, smokers live til 90. There might be a reason for all of these deaths. But then again, there might not be. One thing Science cannot tell us at the moment is the day we will definitely die, or why. It can tell you when and why afterwards though. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 4:28:58 PM | Harmony would be something that we can do but think of it like this:
Here's an idiot that knows how to push your buttons at the right time and the right place. He also knows when you'll explode and when to laugh so he infuriates you more.
Can you live in harmony with this guy? For myself, there's no possible way. The only solution is to push back until his existence is no longer in my realm of consciousness. There is no actual book that teaches you to be respectful of other people's boundaries.
People will cross the line all the time. What do you do? Shorten the boundaries? Eventually you'll end up with nothing. Human nature will lead them to take everything you have if they can take it.
Ex: Jeff is a nice guy. Steve likes slapping Jeff. Jeff shortened his boundaries so he no longer cares when he's slapped. Steve finds this amusing so he starts kicking jeff in the balls.
Eventually, Steve may end up killing Jeff, or Jeff will get mental and kill Steve.
Harmony is rare and it can only work with the right kinds of notes. Harmony requires notes of its own criteria which sounds good and beautiful. If other notes were just added in, it sounds like crap. That's no longer harmony.
How can you live in harmony in such a large scaled world? It's in nature that animals kill and compete with each other to survive. We're more intelligent than that, and we care for our fellow man. However, when tragedy strikes even remotely, we go ballistic. What ever happened to that harmony in that rich suburban area? Now they're all killing each other because they're afraid of the ebola virus.
It might be a negative way of viewing things but take a look at New Orleans. Perfect example. It used to be a huge party area, now it's trash. Look at what the people did. Steal, kill and they even shot at the cops and military. | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 4:54:39 PM |
It might be a negative way of viewing things but take a look at New Orleans. Perfect example. It used to be a huge party area, now it's trash. Look at what the people did. Steal, kill and they even shot at the cops and military.
Harmony?
Exactly ! A look at the breakdown of society, for which we are not mindful,
let alone prepared for. Survival of the fittest, while beaucrats fiddled.
"and Brownie...you are doing one heck of a job".
Complacency? Is this what brought down the great societies?
Somehow doesn't smack of randomness.
Fine line, as proven in New Orleans.
F.D.R. had HIS New Orleans handed to him, he stands away from 'randomness'.
The entire nation was a disaster, F.D.R. was called "That madman in the White House"
by similar forces we have in charge today.
Random, Repetitive, Complacent? | |
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Posted: 5/15/2008 5:35:45 PM | Although, in a previous post I was sort of saying things are predictable and as long as you have enough information anything, including human behaviour can be predicted.
However, I have thought about it some more. In mathematics and physics there is a theory that somethings are unprovable, like infinity.
So, even though we and the world around us is finite, there are just to many variables to calculate an outcome, including time (ie: it takes time to make the calculation and therefore the variables of the question will be different by the time you have the answer).
So, if things cannot be calculated then they are in our reality as good as "random" within boundaries.
Eg: you stand at a crossroads you have five choices - left, right, straight on, back the way you came or do nothing, what you choose and why you choose it cannot be calculated only guessed at 5 to 1.
I have no idea what I'm talking about but I could press the "cancel" button or the "post" button, is it freewill which makes me decided? or a predictable addiction to these forums? | |
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Posted: 5/16/2008 8:16:41 AM | The more we continue to research and learn, the more we find that is not random. there are predictable patterns and ways things work...it is all a matter of understanding them, and making the choices to follow those that we wish.
Example...smoking. Sure...it may help prevent Alzheimers...but may kill you with cancer...then again, maybe not. Sm0king preserves meat, so it may have that effect on some people.
Choose to "live healthy" and die off young due to some disease, that, in our own ignorance, may have been avoided if you had kept eating beef. Athletes dying off? Steroids? Maybe. Herat problems? Thin veins? Lots of differnet things can and do affect us...environmental things add, subtract and cause all kinds of things to happen.
Genes? Some turn on, some off, some get stuck wide open, others just lie dormant.
It is a crap shoot...until something triggers it.
the time will come when we do understand it all...we keep adding to the heap of knowledge we have....our drawback is that we need more and better librarians and information storage! We also need better ways to bring all this knowledge together to find out more new things. | |
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Posted: 5/22/2008 2:09:16 AM | I'm really not sure I know what you're talking about. There's alot of generalities that I can quite point out but I see some things that you're saying. Tell me if I'm right:
You're saying that such things that cannot be provable such as infinity is "random"? I'm also guessing you're saying it is random in our eyes.
You're also saying that anything that is so called known about what the other person thinks about or does cannot be predicted or thought of, but only guessed. We can only have an impression of another person's mind.
I agree with that if that's what you're saying.
The other person that posted after you: I think that's what determinism is about. They would say that everything is determined but we call it random because we are ignorant of the sufficient information that is a necessity to actually "know" about it.
Well I'm not sure if determinism is truly what leads the world. What I believe is that these things do not matter. We can become aware that we don't know, but that's all we can know.
Socrates once said: I know I am ignorant, therefore I am wise. Does self awareness actually grant a thinker to utilize his mind in many different ways that no regular human being can ever do? Or is it actual book smarts and experiences that capacitate us to use our mind? | |
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