| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 12:37:25 PM | such a huge disconnect! our government puts out tainted economic data to purposely mislead the masses.
if the stock market priced in the actual state of the economy it'd be 40-50% lower!
a really good news story i noticed yesterday is a GREAT read. I've been writing CNBC and others about such things for so many years but not enough care to listen. When the economy gets really bad, there'd be no sugar-coating that would fool people, but that has not yet occured. Be wise and arm yourself with truths, not the lies.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/13/news/economy/misery/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote
Economic 'misery' more widespread
some excerpts:
"Americans are feeling a lot more economic pain than the government's official statistics would lead you to believe, according to a growing number of experts.",
"In addition, food and energy prices are eliminated from the so-called core CPI, which many economists tend to focus more closely on because they claim food and gas prices are volatile.
But food and energy costs are a part of household budgets that are very important to consumers. And those prices have been skyrocketing: gas prices were up about 25% over the 12 months ending in March while food prices rose 4.5% over the same period.",
"Bill Gross, the manager of Pimco Total Return, the nation's largest bond fund, refers to the CPI as a "con job" that deliberately understates the price pressures faced by Americans in order to keep Social Security payments and other government costs pegged to the index unduly low.",
"Finally, there's the unemployment rate. It was at a relatively low 5% in April. But according to Williams' Web site, ShadowStats.com, the actual rate may be between 8% and 12% if you use a more accurate reading of those out of work".
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any questions or comments? | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 6:56:59 PM | The stock market is one gigantic scam. A bunch of goofs contributing absolutely NOTHING to the productivity of the country, but making a pile of money dealing in what is, essentially, vapour-ware and rumours.
What's particularly galling is how the stock market so often seems to go up as things get worse for the actual WORKING people of the country. One really gets the feeling that there is something inherently evil about the whole thing. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 7:04:22 PM | I agree . but consider what most ppl spend on BS .. the coming decades are going to be considerably less affluent then now ,
If half the world's population can't even get rice , that leaves us pretty vulnerable .. and nutbars with weapons are going to be the heroes ...  | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:22:17 AM |
The stock market is one gigantic scam. A bunch of goofs contributing absolutely NOTHING to the productivity of the country, but making a pile of money dealing in what is, essentially, vapour-ware and rumours.
What's particularly galling is how the stock market so often seems to go up as things get worse for the actual WORKING people of the country. One really gets the feeling that there is something inherently evil about the whole thing.
Like EXXON reporting record profits.....
and the stock goes down>>>>
Layoff 90,000 workers and the stock goes up.....
"absolutely NOTHING to the productivity"
....... Industrials ??????? ...........
Walmart? Citigroup? BofA? ...
McDonalds ??????
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:12:57 AM | I dont think the economy is as bad as many pundits are saying.
We are going through an inevitable period of adjustment. Its the nature of our
economy. Much of it is based on speculation, and eventually the inflated bubble bursts
,as we have seen with the real estate market. It will readjust and recover. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:40:45 AM |
Much of it is based on speculation, and eventually the inflated bubble bursts
,as we have seen with the real estate market. It will readjust and recover.
60% of the homes in the USA have a negative or zero equity value...... lowest ever....
about a $3 trillion dollar bubble world wide...
Not bad for the 2 million fore closed??? | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:17:48 PM | During the Great Depression, the days of drought, famine, financial ruin, hunger and even starvation, there was nevertheless a great deal of surplus of wheat, corn, cotton and hogs.
Under Roosevelt, the National Corn-Hog Committee of Twenty-five, representing Corn Belt farm organizations and Roosevelts agricultural officials, was unhappy with the low prices of corn and hogs due to the market ...partly due to surplus and partly due to fewer people buying ... and decided to dispose of 6 million hogs. Young pigs and pregnant cows were slaughtered, removing a billion pounds of pork from the market.
While some Americans hadn't had any meat in years, 80% of hogs were liquified and turned into soap and fertilizer. Pig carcasses were burned, buried, dumped in streams. There were mountains of ground up pigs piled up under the hot sun.
In June 1933, with cotton prices at a rock bottom of 5 cents a pound and a bumper crop on its way, Roosevelt launched his New Deal by paying farmers, many of them destitute sharecroppers, to destroy 10 million acres of budding corn.
A news report told of a black farmer asking a neighbor, a member of Congress, if he could use remaining cotton bolls to make himself a mattress. When he was told that it was against the law, he replied:
"Ain't you white folks a little crazieh 'n usual just now?"
I would reply to that man if he were here today:
"Mister, you don't know the half of it".
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:16:42 AM |
"Ain't you white folks a little crazieh 'n usual just now?" I would reply to that man if he were here today: "Mister, you don't know the half of it".
Not just smiling at that Steven, but laughing out loud. Very interesting info on the last great period of American deprivation, and all the signs are eerily pointing to similar deprivations in our immediate future.
That is why I am quite cynical about the coming election, no matter who is elected, the incredible damage that George Bush has actually wrought on the American economy, can no longer be hidden or 'fixed' by simply borrowing more money, so whoever is elected will be forced to deal with Bush's scorched earth economic effect, and most likely incorrectly 'blamed' for it.
That borrowing trick has now been exposed for what it truly was, an economic stunt designed to yeild quick financial and poilitical profit, while hiding diguising the true costs, which have now been transfered to the great unwashed, public masses, us.
The powers that be have decided its time to pay the piper, and there's no avoiding it. We are footing the 'interest' payments on that borrowed money via the devalution of currency in the form of outrageous food and fuel prices.
As per usual 'they' have managed to skim the profits off while we will bear all the costs.
That's why I almost think that a President McCaine might not be such a bad thing, if it would serve to completely demolish the mythology of Republicans as responsible stewards of economic policy, and be the catalyst to dismantle the current notions of privatization and unfettered 'free market' policy.
Caw | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:28:26 AM | I almost agree with you that we need four more years of Republicanism to thoroughly trash America, if only Republicans would see the error of their policies but to be honest even if it were 100 years of them, in 101 years they would still be blaming Bill Clinton for the 100-year mess he got us into.
Odd item in the news today, we are "giving" North Korea 500,000 TONS of food as aid, even though we know they feed their military with food aid and we "ask" and "hope" they don't, but it has nothing to do with their nuclear disarmament and, of course, if this is all part of a package that has been successfully negotiated, why is negotiation "appeasement" or rather, when is it and when isn't it and.........wtf? huh?
We live in a crazy world.......Hillary threatens to "obliterate" 60 million Iranians, Bush pretty much announces to the world that israel is like a 51st state and we intend to "democratize" all of the Middle East (and they've seen what getting "democratized" looks like), which sounds to me like a declaration of war, Christian democracy vs. Islamic law ..............and we say these guys are "just talking like politicians do", but when Ahmajamed says that history will wipe Zionism off the map .... wow! The nation turns its gun sights on Iran! Not another politician just talking...........
It's so sad that we are fed so many lies and so much bullshit when the real lives of so many real people are so affected by all this. When are we all going to just get real? Ever? | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:57:41 AM | .
Hillary threatens to "obliterate" 60 million Iranians
What would you expect a Senator from New York reply when ask about a Nuke attack on Israel???
I don't get it are the Blacks or the Whites going to live in the Pig carcasses???
Like I said things aren't bad enough...
I already have my Pig carcasses............ a double wide...
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 2:07:54 PM | with a $10 TRILLION national debt (that is part of the $50 Trillion total debt of this country), that is accumulating interest at the rate of $2 BILLION every day, how does anyone propose to undo it?
I made my stance known to many congressional members by stating that some of the government workers must be let go and the salaries be reudced down to the level of the private sector as well as adjusting pensions of retired government workers (forget the promises as we have a country to salvage!), thus saving over $500 billion annually in total government outlays (national, state and local).
$2 BILLION per day. and the so-called economic stimulus package is a forced borrowing to make the debt even higher. you call that a great plan? | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 2:21:00 PM |
The stock market is one gigantic scam.
I guess that dividend check I cashed a while ago was a figment of my imagination.
Capitalism: Complain About It or Make Money From It? The choice is yours. :) | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 2:25:11 PM | what's the PE value of the company for which a dividend check was sent?
and is the company reporting pro-forma results? if it's a bank, there are additional guidelines allowed to them to not disclose certain debts to hide the true nature of the balance sheet. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:18:05 PM | "I guess that dividend check I cashed a while ago was a figment of my imagination."
No. It's more like the modern day equivalent of blankets and glass beads.
Now run along. I think your day pass from the "State Home for the Easily Duped" is about to expire. Bye-bye.... | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/19/2008 12:44:38 PM | Just think if you had invested in Smart Futures..... A Smart 401.....
secondary market on eBay
Monday, May 19, 2008
Pam Allen - The Business Review
Nationwide, about 30,000 people plunked down $99 refundable deposits for one of the tiny two-seaters, said Ken Kettenbeil, spokesman for smart USA in Detroit.
Since the smart first arrived here in mid-January, 6,100 of them have been placed with owners nationwide.
Orders through the car's manufacturer, Daimler AG's Mercedes Car Group, take between six and nine months to arrive.
"We're pretty much sold out for 2008," Kettenbeil said, pointing to gas prices and the car's "coolness factor" for the heavy demand.
The 8-foot, 6-inch-long vehicles are a hot item on eBay, where they're selling for as much as 35 percent more than the retail price.
The Passion Cabriolet, smart's top-of-the-line version, costs $16,590. In January, a buyer on eBay paid a Los Angeles seller $22,500 for the same model.
Smart's no-frills model costs $11,590; it recently sold on eBay for $16,000.
People also are turning to eBay to transfer their deposits, but smart USA halts those attempts, Kettenbeil said.
As part of their agreement with the dealership, reservation-holders cannot sell their places. If, after a reminder from smart USA, they fail to remove their offer from the site, the car company takes their names off the waiting list.
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/21/2008 8:57:07 AM | i'm still waiting for a major pullback in stocks before i invest again. i don't play the duck-duck goose game wherein i pay any price for a stock as the usual joe does and hope a bigger fool pays more.
i'll throw a few bucks in if it goes another few percent down but really wish it'd go where it deserves to go and that's much lower.
inflation is ridiculously high, and not what the government wants you to think it is.
why do you think the government had to give out rebate checks? why is there a 2% fed rate?
this country keeps sending jobs abroad while we keep keeting in more illegals so there'd be much less work avaliable per person here. look at the negative savings rate and amount of debt per person.
spoiled american behavior is behind this.
I see home prices needing to go down another 20% to 40%. we'll see if it happens. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:40:21 AM | You can make up a rule that a horse must gallop at full speed and not collapse from exhaustion, you can get off and whip the horse, but you can't stop the collapse.
You can also make up a rule that a debt backed by debt compound interest equation may not implode to oblivion, and you can inflate the equation to maximum potential,but once it cannot be inflated any greater than previous maximum potential, the equation implodes to oblivion. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:08:20 AM | the stock market is largely based on speculation and can be one factor in economic growth - have high consumer confidence in the commodities being traded and stock markets do well. commodities include rice, grain, oil, etc. all in demand and all necessary components to our lifestyle.
but housing starts/sales, interest rates, consumer debt rates and labour all impact economic health as well. if you export lots of jobs elsewhere, impacts your labour force; if housing prices fall as the market is oversupplied (as it is now in key areas of the us), then foreclosures rise, if people borrow to life the lifestyle they can't afford on their wages, the debt servicing becomes unbearable leading to the rise in bankruptcies.
so we're in this weird space where commodities are doing great but we can least afford them. the speculators are making the $$$ on the backs of those who need those commodities most. but just as the housing market (which has been red hot for about 4-5 years) is finally adjusting, so too will other aspects of the market. americans will move to a more "save" culture than "spend" and interest rates are likely to stay low so that the vast majority of taxpayers can continue to contribute to the tax base. as another poster indicated - this is a period of adjustment and adjustment is always hard after the "good" years. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/21/2008 12:05:14 PM | the stock market has no mechanism to tie price to profit. commodities markets could be improved by only those who sell the actual commodity and those who buy and actually take possession set the market price.
interest rates will not stay low unless the FOMC really wants to screw up more. I wrote them many times to tell them that they'll be hurting this country more by lowering rates. There is no real harm in having less than a 3% growth rate. In fact it'd be good to purge the excess out now than keep the markets going at a rate that is unsustainable for an eventual greater fall. There is no basis in a growth rate to much exceed the population growth rate of 1%* and so if many years had 2 to 4% growth rates, there needs to be offset years, but the FOMC does something DIFFERENT than what they were commissioned to do and that is to help markets to be stable, instead they keep wanting a super-charged economy that ends up needing to have corrections.
to encourage a positive savings rate, the banks need to raise interest rates. the FOMC keeps screwing up. Look in the late 90's, the FOMC could have had rates higher to prevent a recession. The FOMC could have raised rates quickly after the 9/11 attack but they helped create the outrageous housing boom that works great for the rich (those who already owned) but is terrible for all others, less some speculators who flipped homes.
* i'll share a closed-system example to demonstrate this. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/21/2008 12:08:53 PM | Take a look at a historical chart of the Dow Jones Industrial Average and you will notice something very interesting.
It took from 1900 to 1987 for the DJIA to reach 2000.
It took only 20 years after 1987 for the DJIA to top 13000. An increase of more than %600 in only 20 years ! Anyone who mearly invested in DJIA industrials in 1987 would be embarrassingly rich today.
What was it about 1987 that was so special ?
Simply, the Tax Simplification Act of 1986.
When Ronald Reagan and his cronies had power they goaded Congress and double-talked the American public into changing the tax code. Plying the sensibilities of the ignorant public with farytales of tax fairness.
Were the Reaganites lined up against a wall and shot ? Not at all.
In 1986 Congress reformed the tax code, lowering the top rate from %50 to %28 and lowering the rate for capital gains.
The Reaganites convinced everyone that the rich and the corporations would naturally re-invest their extra money back into their companies and thereby the economy.
Did they do that ? Hell NO they didn't do that !
They put their extra money into the stock market, turning Wall Street into essentially a huge piggy bank. Wall Street didn't become a " Gravy Train ", Wall Street became a " Gravy Starship ". They also divested Corporate America from any practical or moral
loyalty to the United States of America.
This is why the stock market has risen so dramatically the last 20 years while the real living standard of the American people has generally declined.
Does anyone think that if the corporations had any real financial incentive to re-invest their profits back into their American based companies would they be shipping jobs overseas ?
No ! They would be paying people to do jobs over here, not over there.
It seems however, that the scam may have topped out. Overseas markets are becoming much more promising than America. London will probably overtake Wall Street as the financial center of the world. The Europeans with their " Socialized " economies are more stable and the Euro undoubtedly has become the currency of the future.
So , when you look back at the good ol days and wonder where your future went, now you know. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/29/2008 12:24:45 PM | just when the stock market was nearing a more reasonable level to make a few quick trades, it jumps in spite of the economy really being bad. it's unbelievable - I need a drink to cope with human behavior!
GM is getting rid of 19,000 hourly workers as announced today in the news. Ford already announced a huge amount of salaried workers to be gone. Gas is still way too high. Dow announced yesterday that it would be raising the prices of many of it's products up to 20% to contend with the energy situation - the costs of energy will be passed onto consumers even more now and then we'll see how the government will try to falsify data...maybe they'll instead of excluding auto sales, also exclude whateevr else is dragging down the economy to say it's not so bad. Soon you will see inflation to an even higher degree and then the FOMC would be wishing they didn't lower interest rates so much (I wrote them 5 times to warn them).
I wrote someone at Edward Jones and a radio station in mid February and provided them with my commentary along with the headlines OF THAT DAY ALONE of announced job losses. If I check all such stories for today I'd be able to find a large amount as well.
Here's what I found for JUST Feb 13, 2008:
Financial sector sheds 52,500 jobs in 6 months [July to December 2007] (news story of the day)
Empire Health to cut 130 jobs
Hoover tech company to cut 261 jobs
Sears to eliminate 200 jobs at its headquarters
Nektar cuts 150 jobs; operations chief steps down
Morgan Stanley Cuts 1,000 Mortgage Jobs
140 Jobs Lost In Charleston
ZymoGenetics cuts 80 jobs
Tribune Co. cutting at least 400 jobs, many of them at LA Times
CBS Cutting 40-Plus Jobs; Layoffs Connected To CSTV Rebranding
Silicon Valley jobs program to close doors on Fridays because of budget cutbacks (related)
Feb 12:
US: Macy's to axe 2,300 jobs in restructuring
Citigroup to cut 4,200 jobs
Ethanol Industry Jobs in Iowa Overstated (not exactly loss but initial story was more rosey than reality)
Nastech Pharmaceutical to Cut 50 Jobs
DHL cutting 600 jobs from U.S. workforce
Phoenix could cut 500 jobs because of budget problems
US: Another 9,000 Ford jobs may go - reports
So, let's have another 5% gain in the stock market? It needs to go much MUCH lower! I'm tired of the manipulation. I won't buy into an overpriced market but i know human psychology dictates many do no matter when. | |
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| stock market so high yet economy is so bad
Posted: 5/29/2008 12:54:25 PM | There's a difference between not losing $1,000,000 and making $1,000,000.
Unfortunately, too many people can't tell the difference and corporations wont tell them either.
Too many stockholders read those annual reports which say, " We didn't lose $1,000,000 so that means we made $1,000,000", and they keep investing.
The Stock Market has nothing to do with the health of the economy.
The rich and the corporations keep stuffing their money into it because there's no where else to put it right now. They are too stupid or greedy to invest it into something which might have a future. | |
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