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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:23:25 AM | I checked all forums and this has not been discussed. Other things have been discussed of God but not the specific possibility of God having physical form.
I want anyone to ad your two cents worth. If it comes from the Bible that is all the better because that is where I am bringing my information from.
I was baptised a Baptise and raised with the teaching that God is everything and nothing. If I asked any minister what God was that was the basic answer. My problem then as it still is now was comprehending how a God that created this earth with all it's various forms of life (according to the teachings of mankind) would not create a single species after his own image or likeness on this earth. So many counter well with God being nothing and everything he cannot make a likeness or image of himself. If that be true, why make a world with life forms that are so alien to his being? Why could he not of made a world and the living things on it out of nothing and everthing as himself? Why go to all the trouble to create something that is so alien to what he is not?
Now I understand the above cannot really be answered so lets go with what is. The Bible insinuates and states in various places that God has no form and substance and also that he does. Which do you think has more credibility for being true and why?
My primary example of God having physical substance is a story from Moses.
Now all of the preceeding verses can be argued and debated, etc. But the last verse states what it states....there is no interpretation except for what it states.....
Exodus 33:23..."And I will take away mine hand,and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
The problem that Christian Trinitarians have with this verse is that in it, not only does Moses explicitly records that God is covering his vision with his HAND (note that word and that no other word was used to keep Moses from seeing for a moment.) so that when God passes by Moses will not see his face (or else he would die) and God said he would remove his hand so that Moses can see his backparts. Moses gives one of the only Biblical accounts where an author of the Bible heavily insinuates that God has physical substance. Whether he has a physical substance all the time or just for that moment is debateable.
Now prior to this experience, it began in verse 33:18 with Moses wanting to SEE the glory of God. Now this verse would have said many other things if Moses had asked God to let him "feel" his glory with his mind or to "absorb" it into his being etc. Instead (since we can safely assume prior to this verse Moses has already FELT God's glory through his mind and being) we have to consider what exactly was it that Moses was wanting to SEE concerning God's glory?
Below is the modern definition of glory that I am assuming has not changed much since the old testament prophets used a word comparable to it.....
"glory >noun (pl. glories) 1 high renown or honor won by notable achievements. 2 magnificence; great beauty. 3 a very beautiful or impressive thing. 4 worship and thanksgiving offered to God."
In relation to verse 18 we can rule out definition 1. We can also rule out definition 4. because Moses had gave...."4 worship and thanksgiving offered to God.".....to many times to count previous to verse 18.
That leaves the definitions 2 and 3 as being applicable to verse 18 because Moses ASKED of God something he had not asked of him before In verse 18 Moses asked God to SEE his Glory. Then Moses says God found favor with him and blessed his request. Now as happened with Paul and John the revalator, we have no description here from Moses where he is confused as to what is happening, whether he is in his body or out of his body or if he is dreaming during this experience.
Moses goes on to explain in detail how God allows Moses to see the glory of his being but not his face. Funny how if God has no substance or form and Moses knew that God had no form or substance, I find it ludicrious and down right wrong that Moses goes out of his way to explain about an experience where he asks God if he can SEE HIS SUBSTANCE/GLORY and God says yes and Moses gives a detailed recording where he saw the backparts of God as he PASSED by.
So all opinions welcome! | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:19:08 PM | | Well, I don't know all that fancy bible speak, but if god does have physical form, he owes us one heck of an explanation for making himself without a funny bone or a spine. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 5:27:36 PM | The Gospel of John says "God is spirit, and seeks those who are to worship him in truth and in spirit." (slightly paraphrased)
There are other references to Him being Spirit and that He fills the earth and gives it life.
So to answer the original poster, while his Will is evident throughout creation, thus things are an extension of Him, yet are not Him, his Spirit is everywhere yet nowhere in the sense that it is unseen.
Just my .02 | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 5:50:56 PM | I find it ludicrious and down right wrong that Moses goes out of his way to explain about an experience where he asks God if he can SEE HIS SUBSTANCE/GLORY and God says yes and Moses gives a detailed recording where he saw the backparts of God as he PASSED by.
Because God said no one can see His face and live
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:08:17 PM |
On a serious note I would think not.. really, think about it.. LOOK at the universe, what would be the point of needing an anthropomorphic form when not living on a planet as a physical being.. it's ALL for physical survival and communication/perception
Ravenstar I always admire your ability to put things into perspective in a simplistic way that most can understand.
Now prior to this experience, it began in verse 33:18 with Moses wanting to SEE the glory of God. Now this verse would have said many other things if Moses had asked God to let him "feel" his glory with his mind or to "absorb" it into his being etc. Instead (since we can safely assume prior to this verse Moses has already FELT God's glory through his mind and being) we have to consider what exactly was it that Moses was wanting to SEE concerning God's glory?
montanon I would say you might be on to something with your final remark, and I woud encourage you to seek out what this glory is. You won't find yoour answer in wikipedia on this one.
I won't argue with your understanding of scripture, but if you want my opinion, it is elementary level for my study habits. I am not one to take a single phrase and try and proove and base an entire theology and spiritual perspective around it...
There is a lot more to scripture than we can even comprehend, at best we can only look at the shadows and see through a glass dimly. We have physical restrictions that keep us from beholding the full glory of God, so tha should be a hint that we are not made of the same substance as God, otherwise we would be able to behold God's fullness in the natural condition we are now in.
What is written inExodus in a shadow of a greater truth and reality, and for those who truly investigate the scriptures the journey never ends and the revelations of God's glory change from glory to higher glory. There is much more to know from that passage than what is written as the natural mind understands.
You asked for opinions so I will take the liberty to express mine...
The back of God represents the shadow reality that is revealed to and through Moses. It is the limit to what Moses is allowed to see, and also what can be seen of God through Moses. Moses is representative of the law and the first covenant...Meanwhile the full revelation and highest spiritual reality and revelation of God's glory is represented in His face. Christ is the 'face' of God and the greatest revelation of God's glory. That is why Christ does rightfully say, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father," Christ is not merely the human form who walked the earth...Christ is the purpose and plan of God, God's glory, and Christ had this glor with the Father before time and space began, but it was through the life and ministry of Jesus that this 'Christ Glory' was manifest in time and space....
The deeper spiritual understanding of the passage is not about God's form, but is about what He is keeping hidden from being seen in Moses through the law, and is represented as being the 'back' / 'shadow' of God's reality. The 'face' of God is Christ and the fulness of the gospel. This is what was actually hidden and this is what brings about death, even now if anyone so desires to follow Christ and see the Father, they must take up the cross, Death is still required as entrance into the kingdom of God. Those who see Christ are crucified with Him and for these the glory of God is revealed, these see His face in Christ Glory.
1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
concerning those who look to Moses and not to Christ...
2 Corinthians 3:15
Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
The glory of Christ, is the face of God that Moses was not allowed to see, and was hidden from the Israelites.
God could not reveal His full glory to Moses, Moses is representative of the law.
The deeper greater reality I see is that God cannot reveal His full glory through the law, as represented by and through Moses. The law of Moses is a veil that was purposed to keep the greater spiritual reality of grace hidden until the time of the revealing in Christ.
Mark 4:22
For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:09:55 PM | Well...the Bible says "Let us make man in our own image" or words close to that affect.
Also, seeing that Moses got a close up of god's ass tells us something too...although mankind only being fit to see gods butt kind of bothers me. What kind of elitist attitude is that to have over your own creation that you are supposed to love best?
Anyhow's, I figure that "god" is not a singular...but a race. We were "created" to join the "master race" when we become mature enough, both socially and technically.
Why worry if "god" has a physical body anyways? There are enough nutcases out there that would love to be within 100 yards with a sniper rifle of such an entity.
The Bible is full of all kinds of "contradictions", especially between the old and the new testaments. If we went only by the old testament, the laws probably would be much different in our country. As is, they are tempered by the teachings of christ in the new testament. The "son" countered many a "law" laid down by the father. No wonder he got "recalled".
Ah well....lots to discuss there. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:18:03 AM | To add some more thoughts on God's body parts, illustrated in Exodus 33.
If the back of God is the shadow reality of the law and the fading glory of the law that was given to Moses... and the face of God is the fulness of His grace in Christ.....
2 Corinthians 3
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
This brings us to God's hand, that was used to hide the face and fulness of God's glory from Moses. God's hand is symbolic for authority, when Christ sat down at the right hand of God, being God's 'right hand' is symbolic of the spiritual authority that Christ has been given. God's hand in Exodus 33 signifies the authority of God. And it was by God's authority and hand that the veil to hide the fulness of God's glory was manifested.
Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
Romans 11:8
as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."
The spirit of stupor and inability to comprehend that was put upon Moses and the Israelites and kept him from seeing the full glory that would be revealed, was all done by the hand and authority of God, this stupor that is given, is the veil that covered Moses and the Israelites from seeing God' face and glory, Moses was only allowed to see the fading glory that was passing away, and this is signified in Exodus, byMOses only seeing of God, that which was passing away.(The glory that was fading and passing away is revealed in 2 Corinthians 3:7)
The fact that this seeing God's glory was all done at the time Moses was handed down the law from God is also significant. If Moses would have requested this from God at any other time than when he was given the law, then there might be something more to it...but as it stands, the timing of the event actually provides the proper exogesis imo. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:00:50 AM | Before I begin, I would just like to explain a story that happened to me. One day I said to a friend that I read something that was crazy, and completely insane. He told me not to say that. He said that one day, he said the same thing about G-d, to his teacher. His teacher told him that it wasn't very respectful to speak that way about G-d, and to just say that he didn't understand it. I took this on board. Later on, I learned in psychology that the mind has a process called "self-invalidation". If we accept an idea as true, we will invalidate anything that shows that idea was false. However clear the evidence is that we were wrong, we'll live and die in denial. I realised that this was what my friend's teacher meant. As long as I called any idea as crazy, or insane, I was implying that I believed that it could never be right. My mind would then invalidate anything else, and I would not be psychologically capable of accepting anything to the contrary, however clearly the evidence showed.
I just hope that you can understand the benefits of phrasing questions in a manner that implies that it can be answered in a credible fashion, because without that, you'll never be able to hear any answer. Your mind won't allow it.
Now, on to the topic:
Exodus 33:23..."And I will take away mine hand,and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Biblical Hebrew is a conceptual language, and the Bible is written in Biblical Hebrew. So if you wanted to describe a "rite of passage" using the language of the Bible, you might use the word "gate", like a physical gate that you pass through. If that rite of passage was a painful and difficult, then you might describe it as a "gate of fire". So you might describe puberty as a difficult and painful rite of passage, as a "gate of fire". If someone heard you speaking about your daughter having to pass through a gate of fire by becoming a woman, and took Biblical Hebrew to be a non-conceptual language but rather like English, which is a physically descriptive language, that person might think you were some kind of horrible torturer to your children. How wrong they would be.
On the other hand, if the person took Biblical Hebrew to be a non-conceptual language but rather like English, heard you speak, but still thought that you weren't a horrible torturer, he/she might think this is the right thing to do to children, and might put his/her own children through fire. This is the practice of those who worship Molech, which is explicitly forbidden in the Bible.
Now that we can accept that Biblical Hebrew is a conceptual language, not a physically descriptive language, and so many physical terms can be conceptual, it only makes sense that any descriptions of G-d as conceptual.
The Bible says that the Egyptians said that the first 3 of the 10 plagues was the "finger of G-d". But there aren't any plagues involving giant fingers! So the "finger of G-d" is also conceptual. Your finger can only push a small thing, and is only a tiny fraction of your real power. So too, the first 3 plagues were merely a tiny fraction of G-d's power.
So what does the Bible mean, when it talks about G-d's face? Our face, is who we are. It's what identifies us. So too. G-d's "face" is that we see the true perception of G-d, in all his limitlessness. It's staring at a being who is the entirety of everything. It's much bigger than trying to take in the entire universe at a single instant. It's too much for the mind to cope with.
When we talk about the back of our head, we mean something that looks much like other people's heads, but that if we were to see the face, we could see how that back is perfectly in line with that face, so much so that the back of our head must be unique. But the unique features aren't that clear, and so it is easy to mistake someone for someone else when you look from behind.
In the same way, the "back of G-d" is that understanding which is similar to other perceptions in our life, but is still full of unique small features that could only fit with G-d's true nature. Because the "back of G-d" is similar to other perceptions in our life, that we look at and understand G-d, we can have this smaller perception of G-d, and cope with it, but still take in those unique features that hint at a Being beyond all comprehension.
The back of G-d, is how we understand G-d, by looking at the world. The front of G-d is imagining how such a G-d would really look like. That's like trying to imagine what infinite space looks like. You cannot see it. You'd go mad first. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:05:33 AM | Ge 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
Ge 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Ge 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Ge 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
2 Corinthians 4:1-6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Acts 17: 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill.
My primary example of God having physical substance is a story from Moses. My primary would be Jesus. His Hebrew name is Yeshua which means Salvation and in biblical prophecies he was "God is with us" in the Hebrew is Immanu-El
Isaiah7:14
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us].
Hebrews 1:1-3
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
Human beings are very beautifully made creatures. I do believe animals are too, but humans are very unique in the way they are made in creation. In these ways I have seen.
Some people shine from within them selves which is the real beauty that's in their hearts. In love and in all they do for others in life.
Some are easy on the eyes and very attractive in there appearance. Those we would like to look like physically.
We are a wonderful creation and we were made with all the right stuff that God gave us to live. We hear, see, smell, breath, feel physically and feel for each other mentally, Designed to even feel pain to protect ourselves and our bodies, to eat and drink, to fight off disease and reproduce in our image.
As to the back of God as he passed Moses. I was not there to see this. But I am sure he wore a Royal Scarlet Robe and not butt naked as some that have insinuated. I am sure Moses did see a figure of a man passing by and in his mind would have wanted to one day see his face. And he will. So many places in the bible that God does have a form of a human either angelic or as just a man. In Abraham life in seeing the three angels that all they all talked as one. He wanted to have a meal for him. And Jacob wrestling God. There are quite afew. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:44:23 AM | 2 Corinthians 3
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
Matt. 28:3, (speaking of an angel) His countenance was like lightning, and his rainment white as snow:
Luke 2:9, And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord SHOWN round about them:
Luke9:29, And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his rainment was white and glistening.
Luke 9:32, ...:and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
Even your reference of how the glory of the Lord was still upon Moses and the stones he carried after descending the mount and that glory-radiance-aura, was hard to look at for it's brightness....."which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was," all of the afore mentioned gives strong support that the glory that Moses desiared to see of God was his form/substance if he indeed had one.
There is another aspect of this that many do not give thought to. When Mary came back to the sepulchre, Christ could have communicated in any way he thought feasible to her. He could have did it with a whisper to her mind; an angel to bear his message instead of himself; a dove to light upon her to tell her his message. Point being he could have given his message in a thousand ways and more that had nothing to do with a physical form. Yet he chose to appear with the form of his original earthly being to speak to her and only her. No one seems to wonder why during this inbetween state of death and not having risen to his Father in heaven, he would take the time to appear to Mary in a form of substance that he would also not allow her to touch but he allowed her to see. This one single event, like with what happened with Moses gives more credit to God having actual form and substance then anything stating he does not. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:50:10 AM | I seem to remember a lesson in grade school english on the meaning of umm... metaphors
How does one explain to a barely out of the stone age people something that is incorporeal, abstract moral ideaology and spiritual concepts? Metaphors might work well.. so would umm.. allegory, and similes, and all the abstract ways we communicate complex ideas.. which makes us human as far as I understand.
I had to do a paper in University on the novel by Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness".. a book chock full of these literary tools. Basically it's a journey through African jungle and all the obstacles and experiences faced was used to illustrate the journey of a man into his own psyche(heart/soul) and back again.
Could some of the stories and descriptions of "god" in the bible equate with this? Could there possible be different/multiple meanings in some of it?
just a thought. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:16:26 AM | I think that the bible is so vast and contains such spiritual depth, that it was designed so that it could relate to each of us where we are at individually.
montanon gets a literal interpretation, and the manner in which he derives at his interpretation is brought about through his own understanding and how he investigates the scriptures.
LIke I said, the manner in which he studies the scrriptures is much different in the way I study the scriptures, so finding a common ground is difficult.
And I fully agreee that ther are many metaphors used in scripture, but the metaphors are consistant in thier nature as coming from one author and one mind which is God, and do come into a correct balance with the rest of scripture.
So when a metaphor is given of Moses being hidden in a cleft of the mountainside to hide him from seeing God's glory, then my study habits will look for other instances where this metaphor may be implied. And that brings me to this verse in Isaih 40 on this cleft in the rock being available to hide in and away from seeing Gods glory.
Isaiah 40
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
It seems to me as though God has a purpose of revealing His face and glory to the world, but this will be done at the appointed time, so that all of mankind can see this, and not just an inclusive nation or person such as Moses. And by the sounds of it there won't be any clefts of the mountainside that anyone will be able to hide from this glory, as Moses was hidden. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:03:45 AM |
I seem to remember a lesson in grade school english on the meaning of umm... metaphors
How does one explain to a barely out of the stone age people something that is incorporeal, abstract moral ideaology and spiritual concepts? Metaphors might work well.. so would umm.. allegory, and similes, and all the abstract ways we communicate complex ideas.. which makes us human as far as I understand.
Could some of the stories and descriptions of "god" in the bible equate with this? Could there possible be different/multiple meanings in some of it?
just a thought.
Why does this all come to me as sarcastic humor to those of faith in God? So being I might be in the stone age. Is the star in your screen name a six pointed star as in the star of David or a five pointed star as in the USA flag? I was not sure. Thought I would ask being your screen name could be a metaphor.
met·a·phor
–noun 1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile
2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem;
symbol.
Yes, I would say there are many metaphors in the bible. When things are compared to other things. Olive branch, Vines, figs, mustard seed, wine are also used. Many more too. But that does not mean the Bible as a whole is a metaphor. Some might say the Bible is a myth too. And everyone has their opinion. Yes I am "a little crazy" but that is not a metaphor its a fact. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:44:07 AM | I personally don't believe god has a form. For we are made in the image god, which mean have the mind like god and posses freewill as a gift.
What happen to Aliens with odd looking face than  ? | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:03:25 PM | What does "no one can see His (God's) face and live" mean?
To some it could mean they are heading for an early grave, to others Christ was God personified/incarnate yet these witnesses lived, and yet others believe they simply have to be dead in order to "see". In my opinion whatever it means it is irrelevant because we all possess something of God, just as everything living and dead does. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:16:04 PM | What does "no one can see His (God's) face and live" mean?
I think the "no one can see my face and live", may have been communicated by God when he was feeling pretty low about his physical appearance, and would have had to fatally smite anyone who caught sight of him and was likely to divulge to their mates what an ugly bloke He is.
Nothing has been written about Gods' activities following the Biblical days. I wouldn't be surprised if he's had teeth veneered, hair transplants, chin implants, botox and other work done to improve his appearance. We hang on to every word that he allegedly spoke to the ancient Israelites, including the bit about what will happen to those who see him, but who is to say it still applies? | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:24:33 PM | "What does "no one can see His (God's) face and live" mean?"
A most excellent point to begin with Skypoetone.
Let us establish a fact that many are really unaware of that they have established by believing that God has no form or substance....their interpretations of the scriptures become very limited actually in many aspects.
For a non-form/non-substance believer of God they HAVE to believe that there is nothing in the Bible that could ever mean/ insinuate/ tell of/ or possibly explain that God has substance and form. This can NEVER be even a faint remote possibility. So any verses/scriptures that might even allude to it....THEY ALL have to become a metaphor or something of the like. Doing this to all these various verses/scriptures limits the non-form/non-substance believer in being able to decide if there is more to what has been deduced as a metaphor/fictional story.
Lets take John the revalator for a prime example. For a non-form/non-substance believer, nearly the entire book of Revalation is one huge metaphore. The things that John records that he saw.....to the non-form/non-substance believer he was actually writing in a form of a code because what he said he SAW....he didn't actually see it. Because it can't exist because God has no form or substance so for John to even insinuate that in heaven that there were forms and images that spoke and flew and walked among God's presence, it's ludicrious. It is actually blasphemy to think such a thing or write it according to those who are believers that God has no form or substance. You see, if God has no form or substance in the heavens neither does anything else.
So a question comes forth, instead of God making John think he really saw all those things that cannot exist, why did not God reveal his messages to John without images at all? He could have put his words in John's mind and had John write what he wanted recorded.
See, to have a belief that their is no form or substance of God, you have predisposed most all of the Bible to be fore-organized to fit your belief.
Now if you approach the matter of God possibly having SOME kind of form or substance, you do not have to do a hack job on any verse or scripture in the Bible. You can approach it from two sides of the equasion where as a non-form/non-substance believer can only approach the verses and scriptures from one side of the equation. Thus my point that a non-form/non-substance believer limits their ability to have a real understanding of those verses and scriptures.
I'll go one step farther for an explanation.....with the present knowledge you have of the earth you want more so you have two teachers to choose from to get more knowledge from. It is up to you to choose which person shall teach you their knowledge. But, understand that while one teacher believes the earth to be round and his learning is based on that opinion, the other teacher believes the earth is flat and his learning is based on that opinion. Whom do you wish to learn from? The teacher that shows all things are possible or the teacher that shows all is possible but don't believe that to much for it has limits.
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:53:22 PM | Clarence Clutterbuck:
Nothing has been written about Gods' activities following the Biblical days. I wouldn't be surprised if he's had teeth veneered, hair transplants, chin implants, botox and other work done to improve his appearance. We hang on to every word that he allegedly spoke to the ancient Israelites, including the bit about what will happen to those who see him, but who is to say it still applies?
LOL!
Although, that's not entirely true, depending on one's beliefs. In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, there's a pretty long tradition of God and/or His various messengers (the Virgin Mary, St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Catherine, whatever) appearing to or speaking to His followers. A pretty important one in my own belief would be God (in the person of Christ, me being a Trinitarian) appearing to St. Faustina Kowalska in the 1930's, commissioning her to paint the image of Divine Mercy. If you look at this photo of the painting, you'll probably recognize it right away. http://www.marianbooksandgifts.com/DMPoster.jpg
And of course, Mormonism has that whole Book of Mormon thing going on.
At any rate, though, the idea of God "taking a vacation" after the book of Apocalypse (Revelation) is a foreign one to me. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:01:53 PM | See, to have a belief that their is no form or substance of God, you have predisposed most all of the Bible to be fore-organized to fit your belief.
You know montanon, whether God has a form or not is irrelevant to most people, in fact to consider or insinuate that God is some bearded big guy up in the sky sitting on a cloud, is a bit of an insult to most intelligences.
God is omnipresent, scripture testifies to this as fact.
If an omni-present God looks in the mirror, which is the true and which is the image? | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:52:25 PM | "If an omni-present God looks in the mirror, which is the true and which is the image?"
I think I like Col. 1:16 for in this verse it does speak ofwhich would allude to they possibility that all things, in heaven or on the earth have form and substance....
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Here are a few verses though I am sure Consiq you will find a way to explain the ones insinuating God has form but that is not what they mean.....
Gen. 5: 1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
Gen. 9: 6 in the image of God made he man.
Gen. 18: 33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.
Ex. 24: 10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
Ex. 31: 18 (Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.
Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
Ex. 33: 23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
Matt. 3: 17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
Matt. 4: 4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt. 17: 5 a voice out of the cloud.
Luke 24: 39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 14: 9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Acts 7: 56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Rom. 8: 29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
2 Cor. 4: 4 Christ, who is the image of God.
Philip. 2: 6 who, being in the form of God.
Philip. 3: 21 our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
Col. 1: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God.
Heb. 1: 3 the express image of his person.
James 3: 9 men which are made after the similitude of God.
1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Rev. 22: 4 they shall see his face.
I can list more if you want. But let us consider something in the light of Col. 1:16.... God creating all things visible AND invisible.....it does say through out the scriptures that God is invisible. We both agree on that. But the question becomes in light of Col. 1:16, is the invisible visible if God allows us to see his invisible creations with our spirit eyes and not our human eyes as happened with Moses, Paul and John the revalator to mention a few that had what we call "out of the body experiences?"
"If an omni-present God looks in the mirror, which is the true and which is the image?"
Of your question....as long as it deal expressly with God and what he is revealing to an individual.....the truth is the image and the image is truth as God cannot lie.
So I shall ask of you, would an omni-present God create an image that was not true if he is full of truth and cannot/will not lie? | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:13:59 PM | | montanon if you want to believe that God is some big bearded guy in the sky that is your perogative. But don't expect me to entertain this idea with you...I will discuss scripture, but I am beginning to consider that is even pointless as well at this time, as we are not on the same wavelength of understanding. I look for the deeper spiritual meaning and don't spend much energy on what the letter of scripture is saying. I have given my explanation of what God's 'back', 'front' and 'hand' represent spiritually, you can argue that and voice your opinion..but you cannot prove me in error. | |
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