| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:10:01 PM | Everything comes from nothing. Matter is illusion. (Quantum physicists have also come to this conclusion)
I am just wanting to you know what you guys think, if any would like to make a comment. It's certainly an ongoing debate that has been around for . . . well, a long time anyway. The way I see it is like this: No matter how far back you go, past the big bang, what caused that, how come something come from nothing, is it a 'divine power'? Over the years I am coming to ... I was going to say conclusion, but that would be a mistake since we will never really, fully, know, understand. But I have read in other places where if you imagine a fish bowl and, of course, you have the fish inside, we are in fact the image relfected on the surface of said bowl and when we dream, we dream we are the people in the bowl itself. Interesting bedtime reading.
So.... what do you guys think? I would love to hear your thoughts!
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 5:18:38 PM | | How can this be up for vote for deletion? It is only about where we live and where we are going! Come on! | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:36:47 PM | Unfortunatley with this answer we will never know however i believe there is something above us in the form or god or whoever who created the world
the big bang theory and the design theory does not really add up | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:38:34 PM | Hi Adamf73 - All threads have the deletion feature in place for a pre-specified amount of time. If anyone voted for this thread to be deleted, you would see a number count in red. POF is owned by one man (and his wife) in California .. the reason one person (2) can handle a site this big is because of these sorts of features .. the place runs on automation and on the generosity a few people who volunteer their time as Moderators .. to field what can't be automated. The vote-to-delete bar will automatically disappear .. in time.
Now .. to your original topic ..
Hmmmm .. you've asked about .. what was your question, specifically?
I can't say I've spent a great deal of time contemplating the beginning of this universe. Time is a device man came up with to measure our linear perception of existence. I see the answer to your ponderings perhaps steeped in the definition of time .. and of space .. so if that were truth (and it's not, it's just ponderings of my own) then quantum mechanics (with a dash of string theory tossed in) might be the way to direct your curiosity. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:32:20 PM | There was no "before the Big Bang." Time didn't exist until after. Neither did Space, Matter, or Energy.
The Big Bang event created Space, Time, Matter, Energy, and everything else.
To repeat- there was no "Before."
The Big Bang is the starting point for Everything. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:43:28 PM | Beaugrand - registered - trademark protected - copywrite protected - (interesting handle)
Since energy can be neither created nor destroyed, there was at minimum energy before the Big Bang .. ?
Also, the Big Bang suggests the universe will expand until it reaches maximum .. then will begin to contract again .. compressing all .. until the next Big Bang .. but .. where did the energy come from in the first place? If the universe is to reach maximum, what is outside the universe? More of those ideas to ponder on a starry night while backyard surfing with one's Significant Other. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:44:34 PM | Since energy can be neither created nor destroyed. . .
 It can and was. . . by The Creator.
 There was no Big Bang. It was a massive burst of light as in Let There Be Light. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:12:42 PM | Ok, go with that idea. Massive burst of light .. (Big Bang?)
Darkness. What is the darkness? What is it made of? How big is it? Does it have distance? Mass? What was in the space before this light? What is on the outside, beyond the outer edge of the darkness? | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:27:10 PM | Wouldn't a massive burst of light still be a Big Bang. Bang, even explosion, doesn't necessarily mean fire.
Even for light to be projected, there must first be something to emit it, even the bible puts matter first, light second.
I myself find the universe to be a paradox and impossible by it's own definitions.
Energy is a product of movement through time, doesn't have to be movement over distance, just being there in multiple frames of time will produce energy (kinetic). Produce however is a loosely used term.
Therefor saying Energy can not be created or destroyed, only displaced, equates to matter can not be created or destroyed, only transmuted (changed from one form to another).
Following that logic the mass of universe at any given point is equal to the mass of the universe at any other given point (cumulative and point in time not space).
Since we've seen various objects in which their mass is contained in a smaller spatial size, we know that mass does not equate to size, so the universe can expand and contract infinitely (or nearly infinite) and still retain the same mass.
Supernatural beginnings or not, we are missing or mis-perceiving a huge chunk of the puzzle. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:00:07 AM | There was something five minutes before everything else started, but before that there was nothing.
Imagine, if you will, that there is a road winding through the countryside, with nobody on the road. Now consider that life is a journey. A journey starts when you step onto the road and continues as you walk along. Then one day you arrive and you step off the road. The universe is not the road, it is the journey. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:06:54 AM | Goody goody. Conversation. I know this question will never be resolved, but . . . .
I do not wish to tread on peoples toes, that is not my intention.
When I say things I am not saying "I am right and you must believe me." I am merely stating my opinion. I say this because people I talk to face to face have repeatedly said that I think I know everything. I have never said that! Never will!
What I cannot get my head around is this. If there was nothing before the so-called Big Bang, then how did the Big Bang come to be? If there is a Creator then there was something before the big bang for a Creator/Devine Being to make this universe and all its happy incidents for life on this planet.
Who knows? Maybe the big bang has happened before and happens again and again everywhere. I remember an experiment I was shown as a kid: Two balloons put together but only one is inflated. These two balloons swap about.
Again, I know we will never get to the bottom of this (I wonder why scientists keep looking into the atom and further and fruther in, they are never going to get to the bottom. To quote a famous saying: The more you look into the Abyss, the more the Abyss looks into you.) And as for the theory of everything, I do not know how we can get this because we are part of that equation, so . . ..
Ouch. My heads hurts. I will leave it there. For now.
But it is interesting to read what other people are saying. Please continue!  | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:07:32 AM | | I think the problem is with the question. Terms such as 'before' and 'after' are adverbs (terms which denote temporal succession and relation) are derived from our experience of the everyday world, and when applied to the situation in to the very early universe, can lead to confusion. I think it is meaningless to ask what existed 'before' the big bang, since we are asking what prior event or cause existed before the first event itself, which was the big bang itself. If a temporal or other sequence is finite and it ends at a certain point, it makes no sense to ask what lies 'beyond' that point. Theories of physics do try to address the origin of the universe, but the question what existed 'before' leads to meaninglessness quite quickly. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:38:59 AM | I cannot prove my belief about the start of the universe, which tends to be the material/scientific model, any more than religious views can prove the creation model. However:
Space existed before the Big Bang. How many dimensions it has or whatnot is immaterial. It is a geometrical concept, not an existentialist one. However, three-dimensional space is one of the very few geometrical figures that has not way of not existing, even if we subtract perception of it by anything or anybody.
It's not sure wheather time existed before the Big Bang. But then again we're not sure whether time exists now. We measure time with motion, but we cannot directly sense it. We don't know if time exists, and if it does then we have no clue whether it a primary thing or a composite of things.
Matter and energy: I have my own views on that.
Expansion / contraction: Not necessarily will the universe contract. It may expand indefinitely if ours is the only matter in infinite space; or it may expand and meet other expanding "universes" and form a contracting conglomerations() of mass to create other material centre(s). | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:14:17 AM | "There was no "before the Big Bang." Time didn't exist until after. Neither did Space, Matter, or Energy."
Sorry Beau but several physicists are not comfortable with that one. It boils down to the big question (Creationism notwithstanding) that ask what banged? Why? Why should there have been nothing before and all of a sudden, everything? I went to bed with nothing in my bank account. Why don't I have a million dollars in there this morning? It's an effect without a cause.
Of course, inifinities are an uncomfortable concept for physicists. Either way, reality still defies our best efforts to explain it completely.
About the "flash of light" comment. Actually, the first while after the big bang was actually quite dark. The matter/energy density was actually too high to allow photons to fly freely. From what I understand, the universe didn't become transparent to photons until about 300,000 years (our time) after the initial "bang." | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:59:52 AM | It would be a cool story if existence was the futile cycle of endless relativity spurned into motion by the attempt at rectifying a paradox, which only lead to the expansion of further paradoxes.
Who was it exactly that said "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted?"
Was it William S. Burroughs or Hassan i Sabbah? Or both.
If someone showed me a box and claimed there was nothing in it, and I claimed there was everything in it if you looked hard enough. Then we'd have to devise a way of proving our arguments in some pretty far out ways. Might take a while. Might take forever. A third person might come along and claim it's both nothing and everything in that box. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:06:27 AM | "It would be a cool story if existence was the futile cycle of endless relativity spurned into motion by the attempt at rectifying a paradox, which only lead to the expansion of further paradoxes."
Vancer, you're getting the point, but try to work quantum theory in there somewhere. (That is to say, in the words of Lucy from Peanuts, "the picture needs more tigers.") | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:10:34 AM | That was A.
And B, you already know I don't exist. Then why prove to me I don't exist? And if you need to prove it, then it could only be yourself to prove it to, and that's proving yourself right out of existence.
This could be the Pentagon's new secret weapon.
This could be your secret goldmine, getting a research grant / contract to develop the weapon. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:11:10 AM | | Maybe string theory will lead to the conclusion that everything was in the box all along. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:19:05 AM | Then I wonder if everything is defined, if it's simply more conservative to remove it.
It sometimes feels like everything is bound by the desire to be as conservative as possible.
The absence of everything could satisfy that better than everything, couldn't it?  | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:23:17 AM | | The problem here is to say how things are. Saying how things are is a purely human construct. The limit to what we can know is that which humans can know. Once we know all that we will still not know what can't be known. So any explanation that satisfies us must still be only a nice idea we can't see past. When we finally understand anything and everything we will have only determined the limits of language. The question of what all there is and how it all works, and why, is beyond language because it asks to define what cannot be defined. Then the answer is: "that which cannot be defined". We knew that a long, long time ago. So with every smaller question than "everything" we have to realize the context is: "the set of things possible for humans to know". I don't know about you, but for me I will not seek beyond that until I am brought back as a chipmunk or walrus, and my different mind can have different ideas than human ones. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:27:07 AM | Sounds like it's all getting religious.
I'm not religious, but I think I understand why they focus on things like never ending cycles of rebirth, obtaining ultimate equilibrium, and how the totality should remain unknowable as it could lead to it's destruction.
It's funny thinking about that. But I guess since our desires were evolved from the equation of the construct they would be patterned after it's behavioural aspects. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:00:26 AM | BTW -
Thanks Expat for explaining about the votes.
Now . . . . What are peoples thoughts on the wave function? That trees etc doesn't exist until it is looked at (and all that)? Can we throw that into the mix? | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:18:58 AM | | Defining what is not changed by observation is straightforward, but when observing affects a thing then you have to account for that effect in your definition. Then you can describe what happens when the combination of your observation and what it is that caught your notice converged. Now realize that merely by thinking of some things you have done that, which is to say, they are changed or created by your thought of them. Now where are you in your quest to leave no stone unturned? But the original question was the universe coming from nothing. How does the idea of coming from nothing survive the suggestion that whatever is has always been and that we are the origin of change as we move along it? People tend to think of existence as something that happens to them. But what if it is the other way around? What if the beginning and end of all being human including our knowledge is from us happening as existence? Then the universe becomes a human thought and since what we mean by the word is something else, we find a mistaken idea. Is knowledge then nothing more than the catalog of human experiences, including our dreams? The idea of the universe is part of the question asking process and is limited to within our ability to understand it in terms we already know. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:44:10 AM | So, roughly speaking, am I saying the same kind of thing, Mr Internet, in relation to the fish bowl? I'm no scientist, but I have found part of me always asking these questions and where I live no one wants to participate in them.
And I wish I could explain myself better! | |
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