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 Author Thread: Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
 VelvetRebel

Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 1
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:41:48 AM
Having read the recent thread about Hezbollah, I saw the discussion quickly turn into questionning Israel's legitimacy as a state etc.

As for my opinion:

1. Debating the Jews' right to self-determination and a state is antisemitism.

2. Saying that Israel is an illegal state is a ridiculous statement because on the same grounds, so are most countries in the Middle East and Africa that were drawn according to British and French interests due to colonialism. And let us not forget - America was taken from the natives.

3.HOWEVER, criticising Israel's practices - namely the occupation, the settler movement, etc. is legitimate

So what do you say?
 trubblemakr

Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 2
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:59:46 AM
hmm how do u figure questioning their right to self determination as antisemitism? they arent a nation they are just a culture that hes been eroded over the yrs and is now just a ragtag band on squatters
the only reason they even are in isreal is because the united states punishes anyone who touches their free money supply

isreal is an illegal state because the land was usurped from landowners and families that worked that land for hundreds/thousands of yrs
just because biblically they used to occupy the land doesnt give them the right to uproot a people and resettle it at thier convenience
how would you like it of they resettled them in your neck of the woods and stole your land and state from you ?
funny how its alright to anti anything these days but lord help u if you disagree with the jewish propaganda
 Gotapulse

Joined: 3/21/2005
Msg: 3
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:29:50 AM
^Sigh....nobody reads their history any more.
 Seavoyage

Joined: 1/18/2007
Msg: 4
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:40:20 AM
Israel is a legal state depending on what you mean by legal. You are confusing with what is just and what is legal. Was it just to uproot the natives and bar them from their villages and homes? No, that's obviously not just, but it doesn't mean Israel is not a legal state. The injustice of the holocaust is connected to the injustice visited on the Palestinians and also to some extent what happened to Middle Eastern Jews complicated things as they form a large percentage of the population of Israel and can't be discounted. It is a very complicated situation, and the Palestinians didn't deserve what happened, and they were victims of World War II and so were the Jews.
One group ended up victimizing another when they fled to the Middle East and the Jews were used as a tool by the Zionists. I think the Arabs would have welcomed them fleeing to the Middle East to be citizens of the various countries, but when it came down to forming a state and dispossessing the Palestinian Arabs, things became messy, naturally, but the European Jews were having a European nationalistic paradigm and tried to translate that in another area. The Germans talked of the Pan Germanic Volk people and the Russians talked about Pan Slavic nationalism, and the European Jews were influenced by that, the idea of blood related to land and having a national land.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 5
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:19:21 AM
Israel exists, and it's not going to get packed up into boxes and shipped anywhere. Get used to it.

As to questioning Israeli policies, and actions, that's certainly not anti-semitic, although that's often a charge leveled against anyone that does try to do that by some.
 uninterested

Joined: 4/26/2008
Msg: 6
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:47:28 AM
No, questioning Israel does not equate to antisemitism. Just about every Israeli alive will tell you this. Most Israeli's themselves are critical of their government at one time or another, this doesn't make them antisemitic.


As to questioning Israeli policies, and actions, that's certainly not anti-semitic, although that's often a charge leveled against anyone that does try to do that by some.


Not to pick a fight MG;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/when-legit-criticism-cros_b_3524.html


The newest form of bigotry is to claim that I and others who generally support Israel argue that "anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite."


From the same article;


I offered a large monetary award (payable to the PLO) for anyone who could actually come up with a quote by a prominent pro-Israeli writer who equated mere criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. No one came to collect the reward, because no respectable person has ever made this absurd claim.


The article includes a checklist as to what is generally regarded as antisemitic and what is not.
 timenough123

Joined: 2/22/2008
Msg: 7
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:57:41 AM
Every piece of land was once owned by someone else, and most was taken by force.
In my opinion, if there was ever a people who had a legitimate reason for taking back
their homeland, it was the Jews. The world has been particularily vicious and cruel to their tribe. If I were a Jew I would have done exactly the same thing, and so would anyone else. Anyone who denies it is a liar.

If left to themselves , I think the Palestinians and Jews would have learned to live together fairly peacefully decades ago. The thing that has kept this conflict burning,
and will continue to do so is the interference, agitation and hatred of the surrounding
Muslim states. They fan the flames of hatred towards Israel often to deflect attention from the total failures of their own societies to deal with poverty and unemployment.
 NERO1

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 8
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:07:35 AM
QUOTE: 1. Debating the Jews' right to self-determination and a state is antisemitism.

2. Saying that Israel is an illegal state is a ridiculous statement because on the same grounds, so are most countries in the Middle East and Africa that were drawn according to British and French interests due to colonialism. And let us not forget - America was taken from the natives.

3.HOWEVER, criticising Israel's practices - namely the occupation, the settler movement, etc. is legitimate


^^ on point 1. I personally don't feel it's anti Jewish to simply debate the Jews' right to self-determination or at least their right to the Jewish nation-state of Israel as it exists today. It's anti-Jewish to say Israel should be wiped off the map, yes. But debating it or its legitimacy, its necessity, US bias towards it, or what have you, I feel is not by nature anti-Jewish per se. What about for people like me, who don't believe in or follow the Bible (Hebrew or NT)?? For me the Biblical stories about it being a promised land for the ancient Hebrews is worth a p!ss, you know what I mean? I put no stock in it whatsoever; some Xians do (particularly the "born again" or evangelical types) but beyond that it's merely ancient history -- like saying we should base some aspect of US foreign policy for instance on the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. Has no bearing on today's world, IMO.

IMO Arabs and Muslims were the (most recent -- prior to '48) predominant inhabitants of that general area, ever since the Arab conquests of the 7th century. They even beat back the Xians for it a thousand yrs ago and thereby kept their predominance there. Granted there were Jewish communities there, but they could not have been the predominant peoples of the area.

Therefore an Arab, whose family may have farmed the land in , say, the West Bank for the past 500 yrs, has every right to have a legitimate grievance, even a hatred , towards some Eastern European or NY-born Jew who suddenly moves there and is given that land (now illegally occupied) to live on a "settlement". And why should the international community accept it without at least saying something about it?? Because of something in the Hebrew Bible?? Like I said, what does that mean for those of us who are neither Jewish nor Xian?? It means nothing.
 timenough123

Joined: 2/22/2008
Msg: 9
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:35:55 AM
ever since the Arab conquests of the 7th century---

There lies the stunning hypocrisy of the Muslim world concerning
Israel. Muslims invaded and conqured other people for centuries till
Europeans stopped them cold. They have no right to criticize anyone else for doing the same thing. One thing is clear, if the Israelis had been Muslims, it wouldnt have been an issue for other Muslims. They are totally full of s**t.
 Chiny®™©

Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 10
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 11:19:08 AM
How come people always forget that the Palestinians themselves are Semitic?
So when you say that someone is anti-Semitic, you are saying that he/she is anti-Jewish as well as anti-Palestinian. How come only the Jews get the dibs on the word Semitic?

Regarding the European Zionist's that claimed Palestine and the right to return, displace the natives and establish the state of Israel, at what point, exactly, do those Europeans loose the right to claim that they are Jews? Where exactly is the line of demarcation drawn, after all you can't continue to be a Jew forever based solely on one of your ancestors 100 times removed, migrated from there many, many, many years ago? I've noticed that the indigenous Jews, the ones that stayed put in the Middle East, look exactly the same as the Palestinians/Arabs, but the Zionists look like "white people" that are not indigenous to that part of the world. Another question is that most of the Zionists are atheist and that native Jews don't like what they're doing and believe that the state of Israel can only be instigated by Jehovah, as told in stories in the First Testament or Torah if you like?

As to comments re-the European Jews have every right to a homeland because of what their fellow Europeans did to them during WW2, referred to as the holocaust. Well thats got nothing to do with the Palestinians. They didn't participate in the holocaust did they? So why should they be made to pay and suffer for what Europeans did to Europeans during WW2?

I reckon the whole thing is wrong! It's the core of all the problems in the ME and really needs to be addressed so that the past 60 years of this festering ulcer, thrust like a dagger into the heart of the Islamic world can be put to rest and we can have peace without terror and government's gone mad from fear!
 woodenmike

Joined: 6/17/2007
Msg: 11
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 11:20:54 AM
What is a "Semite"?

It's a "person of middle-eastern decent".

Palestinians are also Semites.

What is a "holocaust"?

Technically, it shouldn't be refered to as "THE" holocaust.

What is a "Swastika"?

It's taken from an ancient Phonecian symbol for the sun, and a Native American symbol of good luck.

Twisted symbolism and twisted definitions.

Getting the picture?
 TheLimey

Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 12
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 1:38:03 PM
There's a easy enough cure to the problems with Israel & the Middle east..
Ship all the Israeli jews etc to Montana* & let them have the place. The upside to this would be:
1: Middle East would be all Muslim so they could get on with killing each other as they have done for centuries before 1948.
2: Israelis could no longer play the victim
3: Palestinians could no longer play the victim
4: Montana would become the richest State in the US.
5: The US would save $3Billion a year in foreign aid

* or Wyoming, Idaho etc, yanno one of those Northern States where there's not too many locals to start complaining.


Or:
Maybe let them have the lower 60-70 miles or so of Ca, Az, NM & Tx. Then they could build a wall to cure the US immigration prolems...?

So, whats the downside?
 NERO1

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 13
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 4:46:41 PM
Msg11, A "Semite", strictly speaking, is someone who speaks a Semitic language as part of their ethnic culture. Jesus was one (ironically.......all those Germans and others hating Semites while also worshipping the image of a dying one...). Anyway, as they classify many other peoples linguistically / culturally (eg, Slavics, Latins/Romance, Germanics, Anglos, etc), it's the same thing basically.

Now it's another question I suppose , as someone else above got at a bit I think, at what point does, say, an Eastern European Jew , whose native language is Russian for example, who hadn't even ever been to the Middle East, doesn't speak Hebrew, and so forth, cease being a "Semite"? He is a Jew, by birth, granted, but ..... well, I suppose we just continue to use the old linguistic/cultural tag regardless --- for example, oftentimes here we'll call a Mexican-American, born in the US, who doesn't even speak Spanish , Hispanic. But they're not even a Spanish-speaker.

But anyway, due to the fact that Arabs and Jews are pretty much the two (remaining) Semitic peoples, I always specify "anti-Jewish" when discussing it, as opposed to "anti-Semitic" -- unless the issue is some sort of broader prejudice against Jews AND Arabs in general. Technicalities.....
 *thebestguyhere*

Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 14
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:18:41 PM
Has anyone noticed how many Israeli/Americans are in positions of power in the US government ? Namely Chertoff who is supposed to be in charge of security.

So who do they hold their loyalties to ?

Attorney General - Michael Mukasey
Head of Homeland Security - Michael Chertoff
Chairman Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Richard Perle
Deputy Defense Secretary (Former) - Paul Wolfowitz
Under Secretary of Defense - Douglas Feith
National Security Council Advisor - Elliott Abrams
Vice President****Cheney’s Chief of Staff (Former) - “Scooter” Libby
White House Deputy Chief of Staff - Joshua Bolten
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs - Marc Grossman
Director of Policy Planning at the State Department - Richard Haass
U.S. Trade Representative (Cabinet-level Position) - Robert Zoellick
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - James Schlesinger
UN Representative (Former) - John Bolton
Under Secretary for Arms Control - David Wurmser
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Eliot Cohen
Senior Advisor to the President - Steve Goldsmith
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary - Christopher Gersten
Assistant Secretary of State - Lincoln Bloomfield
Deputy Assistant to the President - Jay Lefkowitz
White House Political Director - Ken Melman
National Security Study Group - Edward Luttwak
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Kenneth Adelman
Defense Intelligence Agency Analyst (Former) - Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
National Security Council Advisor - Robert Satloff
President Export-Import Bank U.S. - Mel Sembler
Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families - Christopher Gersten
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs - Mark Weinberger
White House Speechwriter - David Frum
White House Spokesman (Former) - Ari Fleischer
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Henry Kissinger
Deputy Secretary of Commerce - Samuel Bodman
Under Secretary of State for Management - Bonnie Cohen
Director of Foreign Service Institute - Ruth Davis
 Peacethx

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 15
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:49:27 PM
Its not that questioning Israel is antisemitic.

Its the OBSESSION with the issue that belies antisemitism.

 Soul Union

Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 16
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:50:08 PM

Has anyone noticed how many Israeli/Americans are in positions of power in the US government ? Namely Chertoff who is supposed to be in charge of security. So who do they hold their loyalties to? - *thebestguyhere*

> Do you need to ask?
> Best wishes - Soul Union.
 Soul Union

Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 17
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:58:04 PM

Funny how it's all right to anti anything these days, but Lord help you if you disagree with the Jewish propaganda. - trubblemakr

> I'm with trubblemakr.
> Funny, too, how everyone else's culture and origins can be scorned and laughed at and ridiculed, but they cannot use taxpayers' money to take the perpetrators to the Court of Whatever in Whateversburg to get them prosecuted and put behind bars. They just have to take it in the neck and shut up and grow up. Mamma, they're calling me names again. Oooh, that's terrible. Tell you what. We'll have a lawsuit and destroy their lives - their reputation, their profession, their family, etc. We can't have people calling you names.
> Soul Union.
 Chiny®™©

Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 18
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Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 8:19:23 AM

xNEROx msg 13 says,
Now it's another question I suppose , as someone else above got at a bit I think, at what point does, say, an Eastern European Jew , whose native language is Russian for example, who hadn't even ever been to the Middle East, doesn't speak Hebrew, and so forth, cease being a "Semite"? He is a Jew, by birth, granted, but ..... well, I suppose we just continue to use the old linguistic/cultural tag regardless --- for example, oftentimes here we'll call a Mexican-American, born in the US, who doesn't even speak Spanish , Hispanic. But they're not even a Spanish-speaker.

But anyway, due to the fact that Arabs and Jews are pretty much the two (remaining) Semitic peoples, I always specify "anti-Jewish" when discussing it, as opposed to "anti-Semitic" -- unless the issue is some sort of broader prejudice against Jews AND Arabs in general. Technicalities.....


Your analysis doesn’t really hold true. The example given is all very well given a generation once, or max twice removed from the original migrating ancestor but what if your example was several generations removed and that may amount to hundreds of years, from the original ancestor? Would your example still be Hispanic? To further confuse your analogy, what if your example had intermarried and become through the years fully integrated with the culture and aspirations of the host country but at the same time having remained Catholic? What if your example now had fair hair, eyes and skin tone, say blond hair, blue eyes and white skin as opposed to the original ancestor whom had black hair, brown or black eyes and brown skin just as Jesus (whom we shall use as our example of your average Jew), had? If all of that is the case, as it is with the European or Zionist Jews, would your example still be Hispanic?

I said Catholic as that is the state religion of Mexico but that doesn’t allow him the right of abode at the Vatican in Rome does it? My family is Anglican but that does not give the right of abode in London, England. Do Buddhists have the right of abode in India? A Muslim the right to abode in Mecca, Saudi Arabia? Judaism is a religion just the same as all the other religious faiths around the world, people just practice them where ever they are in the world and don’t go to where their religion originated to displace natives and cause wars, death and destruction.

Lastly, the original Jews that migrated out of the ME hundreds of years ago did so at their own volition and they went all over the world, some even here in Australia, many to North America and the UK, not only to Eastern or Western for that matter, Europe.

 comee

Joined: 12/31/2007
Msg: 19
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History
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 8:39:32 AM
Hia

When we question Iran or its policy are we supposed to be anti-iranian or anti persian??

I hope not. Questionning wrong policies across the globe is a right, and a must for all memebrs of united nation and its residing citisens or subjects.

I do not want to get involved to the answer to 2nd question, to be honest there is too much political ussues and western influence shadowed that one that is hard to know what is done or not.

But so long as the hard liners in both sides, muslims, or jewish does not let some sort of reasonable peace, sharing resources, water, land be implemented the state of conflict will continue.
As long as civilisations and cultures can not talk ..this is what we have to go, war and more war. I guess good business for all weapon makers and trusts.

Kind wishes
Na

 NERO1

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 20
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 8:49:33 AM
^^ Msg18, I'm not really arguing in favor of Israel's being there exactly in the form the state of Israel is in today. It's going to remain there, in some form, yes, as I think it should, but I think real change on the part of Israel's gov't will be necessary for long-term peace and settling of this ongoing issue. Under the very much pro-Likud (IMO) Bush administration, there's simply been no real push from the US for them to do anything lately, that's why they haven't done anything. Because they've been getting away with it without the US pushing on them about it.

Realistically, the US is the only country that has the leverage necessary on Israel to force its hand. But by doing so , I believe it would win a huge victory in the (so-called) "war on terror". Because you take the time to actually address the grievance, understand that at least some of it has merit, and you take some steps to fix or at least compromise on it. Instead of inflaming it even worse by bombing and invading yet another country.

As for the linguistic designation issue, we may be misunderstanding each other, so I'm sorry about that. But , "off topic" , but yes, I mean, Hispanic peoples can range from a blonde-haired Galician Spaniard to a short dark brown & obviously Amerindian central American (it's not really a "racial" designation in truth; just a linguistic one). And yes, I would say in your example of a fully-integrated Mexican, for example (if that's what you were meaning) who'd "intermarried" , became totally assimilated, remained Catholic, whose offspring were lighter-featured, yes the offspring may well still be able to be considered Hispanics, here in the US at least -- though I agree it's debatable to what extent that actually would fit anymore. It's just a census-type term, mostly, at that point, and furthermore people can call themselves whatever they wish on an official form and who can stop them or really prove otherwise, basically.

I was just saying, technically, with the Jews I guess they're still referred to as "Semites" in popular usage, even though yes personally I too question to what degree someone is truly "Semitic" anymore if he or she doesn't speak or even know a Semitic language, doesn't live in or hasn't ever even been to the Middle East, and so on. As for not "looking" Semitic, well I think that would be too random; there are lighter-complected Palestinians and Syrians for that matter.. and they are all Semites.

But I see what you mean as far as degree of removal, so to speak, from the original place. I don't know why the term anti-Semitism is still used in this way, as it technically would mean a blanket prejudice against all Semites, Jew or Arab. That's why I was saying I think people should specify "anti-Jewish". It doesn't really matter anyway... I guess "anti-Semitism" is just the popular term for it that has stuck that's all.
 Steven02151

Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 21
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 11:42:58 AM
I think some anti-Semitic people criticize Israel due to their prejudice and on the other side, Zionist types hold it harmless for their bias, but no, criticizing Israel is not, per se, anti-semetic any more than criticizing Iceland is anti-Caucasian.
 uninterested

Joined: 4/26/2008
Msg: 22
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 1:49:41 PM

Has anyone noticed how many Israeli/Americans are in positions of power in the US government ? Namely Chertoff who is supposed to be in charge of security.


None.
The list that you provided are examples of Jewish Americans not Israeli/Americans.
 Gotapulse

Joined: 3/21/2005
Msg: 23
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 1:51:52 PM
One thing about this that always irritates me is this charge that one can't criticize "Jewish propaganda" without being accused of anti-Semitism. Okay, fine, if you say so. What I want to know is ....what "Propaganda" ? Where are these pro-Israel leaflets and sob-story pieces on the networks ? Where are the radio messages telling everybody to love what Israel is and does ?

I'm a Jew and even I don't often support Israel's actions where the Palestinians are concerned. All the same, I have to yet to run across any articles in the paper or hour long "documentaries" highlighting the plight of average Israelis. I see this sort of thing for Palestinians all the time. That's fine, but the only "propaganda" I see never favours Israel , that's for sure. Obviously it's working since people believe that the mere mention of Israel is "propaganda" apparently.
 uninterested

Joined: 4/26/2008
Msg: 24
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 4:22:07 PM

I don't know why the term anti-Semitism is still used in this way, as it technically would mean a blanket prejudice against all Semites, Jew or Arab.


No, technically it doesn't.


The term Semite refers broadly to speakers of a language group which includes both Arabs and Jews. However, the term antisemitism is specifically used in reference to attitudes held towards Jews. The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism
 *thebestguyhere*

Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 25
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 5/18/2008 4:22:53 PM

The list that you provided are examples of Jewish Americans not Israeli/Americans.

No actually they are all Dual citizens

Dual Citizenship -- Loyal to Whom?


by Dan Eden

Someone wrote and asked me, "Why are there Israeli- but not Mexican-American Dual Nationals?"
Well, here's my take on this. I'd also like your views and opinions.

Unless we are Native American Indians, all Americans have their origins in some other country. Both of my parents were from England. They were proud to be "British" but they were most proud of achieving their American citizenship. Sure, we had pictures of the Queen and nick-nacks with the Union Jack on them. My mother even celebrated the traditional 4 o'clock tea time and was good at making Yorkshire Pudding. In the late 60's my older brother served in the US Army and did his tour in Viet Nam. When it came down to "allegiance," we were all patriotic Americans. Period.

The word "allegiance" means that we promise loyalty. It also carries with it the expectation that this loyalty will be exclusive and unrestrained. In the case of a declared war or real threat or conflict, for example, our allegiance to America should preclude any other interest, be it another country or political ideology.

When they took their oath to become American citizens, my parents had to pledge their "allegiance" exclusively to America and renounce their allegiance to "any and all foreign governments." That included Great Britain, one of our strongest allies.

Before Viewzone asked me to research the meaning of "dual citizenship," I had never heard of the term. How could someone be a citizen of two countries at the same time? But I was just ignorant. Dual nationalities and citizenships are quite common.

From my internet research, I learned that in 1997, a French Canadian with a U.S. passport ran for mayor of Plattsburgh, N.Y. He argued that the incumbent spoke French too poorly to be running a city so close to Quebec. He lost. Also in 1997, a retired top American official for the U.S. EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) ran for president of Lithuania. He was inaugurated in February to a burst of fireworks!

In 1996, Dominicans from New York not only could vote in the Dominican Republic's presidential elections for the first time, they could vote for a fellow New Yorker. Multiple nationalities have become so commonplace that some analysts fear the trend is undermining the notion of nationhood, particularly in the place with the most diverse citizenry on Earth: the United States.

Debate over the issue intensified in the late 1990s, when Mexico joined the growing list of poor nations that say it's OK for their nationals to be citizens of the countries to which they have migrated. Under the law that took effect in 1998 Mexicans abroad -- most of them in the United States -- will be able to retain Mexican citizenship even if they seek U.S. citizenship. And naturalized Americans of Mexican descent will be able to reclaim their original citizenship. The Mexican government stopped short, for now, of giving expatriates the right to vote.

Security Issues

Since citizenship carries with it a responsibility to be exclusively loyal to one country, the whole concept of dual citizenship and nationality raises questions about which of the dual citizenships have priority. This is extremely important when the two countries have opposing interests. It can be a deadly problem when a dual citizen is in a high position within our American government.

Can one imagine a Japanese citizen serving in the Pentagon during WWII? Or how about a citizen of the Soviet Union holding a cabinet position in the White House during the Cold War?

Today's conflicts are centered in the Middle East. America needs to balance foreign policies towards oil producing Arab nations with our goal being peace and stability in the region. This places a burdon on our government to be even-handed in our dealings with the Arab world and Israel. While the Iraq War was waged on lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction and revenge for 911, the real reason has emerged as a well designed global plan to improve the power and leverage of Israel. Added to this policy is yet another potential blow to American interests and security -- the impending War with Iran. This war will be waged for the security of Israel and will be paid for by the blood of American soldiers and the hard-earned money of American citizens whose quality of life is inversely tied to the cost of petrolium.

Recently, in their much lauded paper, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, Harvard professor, Stephen Walt, and University of Chicago professor, John Mearsheimer, focused attention on the strong Israeli lobby which has a powerful influence over American foreign policies (see BBC article). They detail the influence that this lobby has exerted, forming a series of international policies which can be viewed as in direct opposition to the interests and security of the American people. These acts and policies are more often than not carried out by US government appointees who hold powerful positions and who are dual American-Israeli citizens. Since the policies they support are often exclusively beneficial to Israel, often to the detriment of America, it has been argued that their loyalties are misdirected.

A few classic examples can be cited here.

Jonathan Jay Pollard was an American-Israeli citizen who worked for the US government. He is well known because he stole more secrets from the U.S. than has any other spy in American history. During his interrogation Pollard said he felt compelled to put the "interests of my state" ahead of his own. Although as a U.S. Navy counter-intelligence specialist he had a top-secret security clearance, by "my state" he meant the state of Israel.

Literally tens of thousands of Americans holding U.S. passports admit they feel a primary allegiance to the state of Israel. In many instances, these Americans vote in Israeli elections, wear Israeli uniforms and fight in Israeli wars. Many are actively engaged both in the confiscation of Palestinian lands and in the Israeli political system. Three examples come to mind:

One is Rabbi Meir Kahane, who founded the militant Jewish Defense League in the U.S. in the 1960s, then emigrated to Israel where, eventually, he was elected to the Knesset. Until he was shot and killed at one of his U.S. fund-raising rallies in 1990, the Brooklyn-born rabbi shuttled between Tel Aviv and New York, where he recruited militant American Jews for his activities in Israel against Palestinians. He claimed to be a "dual citizen" of America and Israel.

Another Jewish American, James Mahon from Alexandria, Virginia, reportedly was on a secret mission to kill PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat when he was shot in 1980 by an unknown assailant. When he was shot, Mahon held an American M-16 in his hand and a U.S. passport in his pocket.

Then there was Alan Harry Goodman, an American Jew who left his home in Baltimore, Maryland, flew to Israel and served in the Israeli army. Then, on April 11, 1982, armed with an Uzi submachine gun, he walked, alone, to Al-Aqsa, Jerusalem's most holy Islamic shrine, where he opened fire, killing two Palestinians and wounding others. Both the U.S. and Israeli governments played down the incident, as did the media.

Most recently, US Navy Petty Officer, Ariel J. Weinmann, while serving at or near Bahrain, Mexico, and Austria, "with intent or reason to believe it would be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation (Israel), [attempted] to communicate, deliver or transmit classified CONFIDENTIAL and SECRET information relating to the national defense, to a representative, officer, agent or employee of a foreign government." Weinmann was apprehended on March 26 after being listed as "a deserter by his command," according to the US Navy. The information he gathered was supplied to Israel.

BREAKING NEWS -- April 22, 2008, Ben-Ami Kadish, a Connecticut-born U.S. dual citizen who worked in New Jersey was arrested and charged with giving top secret nuclear information and details about the US Patriot Missile to an Israeli agent -- the same agent involved with the Jay Pollard case. The espionage charges reportedly stem from acts committed in the 1980s. These activities, like the ones with convicted spy Pollard, were immediately denied by Israel (Pollard pleaded guilty in 1986). It is further reported that Israeli officials instructed Kadish to lie to US investigators. Kadish is scheduled to be arraigned on Tuesday afternoon [April 22, 2008] at U.S. District Court in Manhattan, authorities said. More details coming soon.

The examples of Kahane, Mahonm, Goodman and Weinmann raise the question of when a U.S. citizen ceases to be, or should cease to be, a U.S. citizen. U.S. Law at one time clearly stated that an American citizen owed first allegiance to the United States. A U.S. citizen should not fight in a foreign army or hold high office in a foreign country without risking expatriation. What the heck happened?

The 1940 Nationality Act

Section 401 (e) of the 1940 Nationality Act provides that a U.S. citizen, whether by birth or naturalization, "shall lose his [U.S.] nationality by...voting in a political election in a foreign state."

This law was tested many times. In 1958, for instance, an American citizen named Perez voted in a Mexican election. The case went to the Supreme Court, where the majority opinion held that Perez must lose his American nationality. The court said Congress could provide for expatriation as a reasonable way of preventing embarrassment to the United States in its foreign relations.

But then something very odd happened.

In 1967 an American Jew, Beys Afroyim received an exemption that set a precedent exclusively for American Jews. Afroyim, born in Poland in 1895, emigrated to America in 1912, and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1926. In 1950, aged 55, he emigrated to Israel and became an Israeli citizen. In 1951 Afroyim voted in an Israeli Knesset election and in five political elections that followed. So, by all standards he lost his American citizenship -- right? Wrong.

After living in Israel for a decade, Afroyim wished to return to New York. In 1960, he asked the U.S. Consulate in Haifa for an American passport. The Department of State refused the application, invoking section 401 (e) of the Nationality Act -- the same ruling that had stripped the American citizen named Perez of his U.S. citizenship.

Attorneys acting for Afroyim took his case to a Washington, DC District Court, which upheld the law. Then his attorneys appealed to the Court of Appeals. This court also upheld the law. The attorneys for Afroyim then moved the case on to the Supreme Court. Here, with Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas, Lyndon Johnson's former attorney and one of the most powerful Jewish Americans, casting the swing vote, the court voted five to four in favor of Afroyim. The court held that the U.S. government had no right to "rob" Afroyim of his American citizenship!

The court, reversing its previous judgment as regards the Mexican American, ruled that Afroyim had not shown "intent" to lose citizenship by voting in Israeli elections. Huh?

While Washington claims it has a "good neighbor" policy with Mexico, the U.S. does not permit Mexicans to hold dual nationality. The US makes them become either U.S. or Mexican -- you can't be both. But the U.S., in its special relationship with Israel, has become very sympathetic to allowing Israeli-Americans to retain two nationalities and allowing U.S. citizens not only to hold public office in Israel, but to hold US government positions as well! No other country holds this special exception to our laws of citizenship.

So, you might ask, are there any other dual Israel-American citizens who hold US government positions that could compromise American security? Yes. Consider the following list that I obtained on the web:



Michael Mukasey
Recently appointed as US Attorney General. Mukasey also was the judge in the litigation between developer Larry Silverstein and several insurance companies arising from the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001.

Michael Chertoff
Former Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, at the Justice Department; now head of Homeland Security.

Richard Perle
One of Bush's foreign policy advisors, he is the chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board. A very likely Israeli government agent, Perle was expelled from Senator Henry Jackson's office in the 1970's after the National Security Agency (NSA) caught him passing Highly-Classified (National Security) documents to the Israeli Embassy. He later worked for the Israeli weapons firm, Soltam. Perle came from one the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktanks, the AEI. Perle is one of the leading pro-Israeli fanatics leading this Iraq war mongering within the administration and now in the media.

Paul Wolfowitz
Former Deputy Defense Secretary, and member of Perle's Defense Policy Board, in the Pentagon. Wolfowitz is a close associate of Perle, and reportedly has close ties to the Israeli military. His sister lives in Israel. Wolfowitz came from the above mentioned Jewish thinktank, JINSA. Wolfowitz was the number two leader within the administration behind this Iraq war mongering. He later was appointed head of the World Bank but resigned under pressure from World Bank members over a scandal involving his misuse of power.



Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
The former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst with expertise in Iranian policy issues who worked in the office of Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and reported directly to Feith's deputy, William Luti, was sentenced January 20, 2006, "to more than 12 years in prison for giving classified information to an Israeli diplomat" and members of the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
Franklin will "remain free while the government continues with the wider case" and his "prison time could be sharply reduced in return for his help in prosecuting" former AIPAC members Steven J. Rosen and Keith Weissman, [who] are scheduled to go on trial in April [2006]. Franklin admitted that he met periodically with Rosen and Weissman between 2002 and 2004 and discussed classified information, including information about potential attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. Rosen and Weissman would later share what they learned with reporters and Israeli officials." (source: sourcewatch.com).


Douglas Feith
Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel. Like Perle and the others, Feith is a pro-Israel extremist, who has advocated anti-Arab policies in the past. He is closely associated with the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America, which even attacks Jews that don't agree with its extremist views. Feith frequently speaks at ZOA conferences. Feith runs a small law firm, Feith and Zell, which only has one International office, in Israel. The majority of their legal work is representing Israeli interests. His firm's own website stated, prior to his appointment, that Feith "represents Israeli Armaments Manufacturer." Feith basically represents the Israeli War Machine. Feith also came from the Jewish thinktank JINSA. Feith, like Perle and Wolfowitz, are campaigning hard for this Israeli proxy war against Iraq.

Feith was investigated by the FBI under suspicion of leaking classified information to Israel, being that he was Larry Franklin's boss when Franklin leaked those documents to Rosen and Weissman of AIPAC. For that he was forced to leave the National Security Council. Feith was also investigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee for sexing up 'intelligence' that was used to justify invading Iraq.

Edward Luttwak
Member of the National Security Study Group of the Department of Defence at the Pentagon. Luttwak is reportedly an Israeli citizen and has taught in Israel. He frequently writes for Israeli and pro-Israeli newspapers and journals. Luttwak is an Israeli extremist whose main theme in many of his articles is the necessity of the U.S. waging war against Iraq and Iran.

Henry Kissinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Kissinger sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle. For detailed information about Kissinger's evil past, read Seymour Hersch's book (Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House). Kissinger likely had a part in the Watergate crimes, Southeast Asia mass murders (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos), Installing Chilean mass murdering dictator Pinochet, Operation Condor's mass killings in South America, and more recently served as Serbia's Ex-Dictator Slobodan Milosevic's Advisor. He consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Kissinger is the Ariel Sharon of the U.S. Unfortunately, President Bush nominated Kissinger as chairman of the September 11 investigating commission. It's like picking a bank robber to investigate a fraud scandal. He later declined this job under enormous protests.

Dov Zakheim
Dov Zakheim is an ordained rabbi and reportedly holds Israeli citizenship. Zakheim attended Jew's College in London and became an ordained Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in 1973. He was adjunct professor at New York's Jewish Yeshiva University. Zakheim is close to the Israeli lobby.

Dov Zakheim is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and in 2000 a co-author of the Project for the New American Century's position paper, Rebuilding America's Defenses, advocating the necessity for a Pearl-Harbor-like incident to mobilize the country into war with its enemies, mostly Middle Eastern Muslim nations.

He was appointed by Bush as Pentagon Comptroller from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004. At that time he was unable to explain the disappearance of $1 trillion dollars. Actually, nearly three years earlier, Donald Rumsfeld announced on September 10, 2001 that an audit discovered $2.3 trillion was also missing from the Pentagon books. That story, as mentioned, was buried under 9-11's rubble. The two sums disappeared on Zakheim's watch. We can only guess where that cash went.

Despite these suspicions, on May 6, 2004, Zakheim took a lucrative position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. One of its clients then was Blessed Relief, a charity said to be a front for Osama bin Laden. Booz, Allen & Hamilton then also worked closely with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the research arm of the Department of Defense.

Judicial Inc's bio of Dov tells us Zakheim is a dual Israeli/American citizen and has been tracking the halls of US government for 25 years, casting defense policy and influence on Presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Judicial Inc points out that most of Israel's armaments were gotten thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.



Kenneth Adelman
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Adelman also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle, and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Adelman frequently is a guest on Fox News, and often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. Through his racism or ignorance, he actually called Arabs "anti-Semitic" on Fox News (11/28/2001), when he could have looked it up in the dictionary to find out that Arabs by definition are Semites.
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Vice President****Cheney's ex-Chief of Staff. As chief pro-Israel Jewish advisor to Cheney, it helps explains why Cheney is so gun-ho to invade Iran. Libby is longtime associate of Wolfowitz. Libby was also a lawyer for convicted felon and Israeli spy Marc Rich, whom Clinton pardoned, in his last days as president. Libby was recently found guilty of lying to Federal investigators in the Valerie Plame affair, in which Plame, a covert CIA agent, was exposed for political revenge by the Bush administration following her husband's revelations about the lies leading to the Iraq War.

Robert Satloff
U.S. National Security Council Advisor, Satloff was the executive director of the Israeli lobby's "think tank," Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Many of the Israeli lobby's "experts" come from this front group, like Martin Indyk.

Elliott Abrams
National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based "Think Tank" Ethics and Public Policy Center. During the Reagan Adminstration, Abrams was the Assistant Secretary of State, handling, for the most part, Latin American affairs. He played an important role in the Iran-Contra Scandal, which involved illegally selling U.S. weapons to Iran to fight Iraq, and illegally funding the contra rebels fighting to overthrow Nicaragua's Sandinista government. He also actively deceived three congressional committees about his involvement and thereby faced felony charges based on his testimony. Abrams pled guilty in 1991 to two misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year's probation and 100 hours of community service. A year later, former President Bush (Senior) granted Abrams a full pardon. He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Reagan Administration's State Department.

Marc Grossman
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. He was Director General of the Foreign Service and Director of Human Resources at the Department of State. Grossman is one of many of the pro-Israel Jewish officials from the Clinton Administration that Bush has promoted to higher posts.

Richard Haass
Director of Policy Planning at the State Department and Ambassador at large. He is also Director of National Security Programs and Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the first Bush (Sr) Administration who sat on the National Security Council, and who consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Haass is also a member of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

Robert Zoellick
U.S. Trade Representative, a cabinet-level position. He is also one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Bush (Jr) Administration who advocated invading Iraq and occupying a portion of the country in order to set up a Vichy-style puppet government. He consistently advocates going to war against Iran.

Ari Fleischer
Ex- White House Spokesman for the Bush (Jr) Administration. Prominent in the Jewish community, some reports state that he holds Israeli citizenship. Fleischer is closely connected to the extremist Jewish group called the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidics, who follow the Qabala, and hold very extremist and insulting views of non-Jews. Fleischer was the co-president of Chabad's Capitol Jewish Forum. He received the Young Leadership Award from the American Friends of Lubavitch in October, 2001.

James Schlesinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Schlesinger also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Schlesinger is also a commissioner of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

David Frum
White House speechwriter behind the "Axis of Evil" label. He lumped together all the lies and accusations against Iraq for Bush to justify the war.

Joshua Bolten
White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Bolten was previously a banker, former legislative aide, and prominent in the Jewish community.

John Bolton
Former UN Representative and Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. Bolton is also a Senior Advisor to President Bush. Prior to this position, Bolton was Senior Vice President of the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktank, AEI. He recently (October 2002) accused Syria of having a nuclear program, so that they can attack Syria after Iraq. He must have forgotten that Israel has 400 nuclear warheads, some of which are thermonuclear weapons (according to a recent U.S. Air Force report).

David Wurmser
Special Assistant to John Bolton (above), the under-secretary for arms control and international security. Wurmser also worked at the AEI with Perle and Bolton. His wife, Meyrav Wurmser, along with Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, co-founded the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri),a Washington-based Israeli outfit which distributes articles translated from Arabic newspapers portraying Arabs in a bad light.

Eliot Cohen
Member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor. Like Adelman, he often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. More recently, he wrote an opinion article in the Wall Street Journal openly admitting his rascist hatred of Islam claiming that Islam should be the enemy, not terrorism.

Mel Sembler
President of the Export-Import Bank of the United States. A Prominent Jewish Republican and Former National Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. The Export-Import Bank facilitates trade relationships between U.S. businesses and foreign countries, specifically those with financial problems.

Steve Goldsmith
Senior Advisor to the President, and Bush's Jewish domestic policy advisor. He also served as liaison in the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (White House OFBCI) within the Executive Office of the President. He was the former mayor of Indianapolis. He is also friends with Israeli Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and often visits Israel to coach mayors on privatization initiatives.

Adam Goldman
White House's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community.

Joseph Gildenhorn
Bush Campaign's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community. He was the DC finance chairman for the Bush campaign, as well as campaign coordinator, and former ambassador to Switzerland.

Christopher Gersten
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS. Gersten was the former Executive Director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Husband of Labor Secretary.

Mark Weinberger
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs.

Samuel Bodman
Deputy Secretary of Commerce. He was the Chairman and CEO of Cabot Corporation in Boston, Massachusetts.

Bonnie Cohen
Under Secretary of State for Management.

Ruth Davis
Director of Foreign Service Institute, who reports to the Office of Under Secretary for Management. This Office is responsible for training all Department of State staff (including ambassadors).

Daniel Kurtzer
Ambassador to Israel.

Cliff Sobel
Ambassador to the Netherlands.

Stuart Bernstein
Ambassador to Denmark.

Nancy Brinker
Ambassador to Hungary

Frank Lavin
Ambassador to Singapore.

Ron Weiser
Ambassador to Slovakia.

Mel Sembler
Ambassador to Italy.

Martin Silverstein
Ambassador to Uruguay.

Lincoln Bloomfield
Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs.

Jay Lefkowitz
Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council.

Ken Melman
White House Political Director.

Brad Blakeman
White House Director of Scheduling.

I don't know about you, but dual citizenship is fine with me for an ordinary citizen. But if you hold an official position that demands that you put American interests above all else -- if you should look transparent and fair to the rest of the world regarding your formation of Middle East foreign policies, then this is a dangerous trend. Even if there were no pro-Israeli agenda, the fact that decision makers have a bias or an allegiance to one of the parties involved in the current conflict should have raised red flags long before now.
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