Contradictions in the Nice Guy mindset. chat & forums.

cartographer: My point about liars being effective communicators wasn't that you have to lie to be an effective communicator. It was that liars are by default effective communicators. A good liar knows social interactions very well. They survive on it.

98-Muffy In response to msg 17
mmmmmm...in all fairness, i once attempted to agree with you, and probably spouted the same sage advice. I'm sure it's still sage advice to you and others. Obviously i currently disagree with this point of view.

There's no "nice guy" and there's no "bad boy"...that's like talking about women and Madonna/Whore complex. It's merely pop psychology. Let's "pop" the thought bubbles shall we and show this 'debate' for what it really is.

(1) "The debate of nice guys vs a$$holes is one of the oldest of relationships and seduction issues." The implication here is that it's the oldest debate running - not. Ask yourselves something different: How did seduction evolve? Assuming we don't all live under rocks, the seduction technique would solidify after a few million years, add in language and bob's yer uncle, fanny's yer aunt. sex.

(2) "One reason is sexuality - the 'a$$holes' are not afraid to show that they are sexual beings" The implication here lies in portraying confidence, when the real truth simply lies in the fact "bad boys" think every girl wants them 24/7. it's not hard to miss cues from women when you think EVERYTHING is a cue.

(3) "'Nice guys' think women will be terrified of their sexuality, so they turn it off and all they get is women responding to their androgyny - sending all nice guys to Let’s Just Be Friends-land" The implication here lies squarely in the stereotype of 'Just Friends'...Not to belittle the "when harry met sally" wonderland this concept regurgitates, but i've never seen anyone in this scenario treat each other as friends. In fact, it's kind of hard to swallow the "friends zone" when it's anything but 'DOORMAT' (look, it's a stereotype, plus a really really old lie to boot. And everyone knows it's a lie, subconsciously)

(4) "Woman like men who have a spine! Who have the confidence to stand by their own opinions." The implication is obvious: REAL MEN don't cry {etc, et al., ad finitum} Look, i'll make it simple: There are a great many guys out there who HAVE girlfriends or wives who are perfectly "nice", have great sex, and possibly even be in love (and know what love is)

In closing, anyone buying into the blather about niceguy/badboy fails to realize that some guys really don't want sex 24/7. We can't all be dogs humping the nearest feminine appendage at the drop of a hat. And simply having that urge doesn't convey one iota of 'confidence' (the 'urge' is backed up by millenia of tradition in 'seduction', so i suppose having "one's own opinion" is a big fat lie as well)

99-Tierran52
One of the best explanations yet. What happens when a formerly non-aggressive decides to "turn it on"? He is so unpracticed that he is soon marked as a nuisance at best or gets accused of harrassment at worst.

101-Muffy
You'd think so wouldn't you? I thought so too, except that's another lie altogether. There's a base assumption in that statement that goes like this, "seduction/sex/lust/love is a learnt skill" (practice makes perfect, etc) with another deeper implication that people shouldn't trust their bodies.

The counter to that is simply trust. Just because one isn't interested in sex, doesn't mean your body loses it's 'edge' or something equally silly. Sort of like whining about 'blue balls'

102-Tierran52
The sexual urge is certainly real and natural, but "seduction" is quite another matter. This is part of the socialization that supposedly all go through during their teenage and young adult years. But let's say you were a member of a fanatical religious cult that forbid dating? What if you simply accepted whoever your parents or a matchmaker picked for you? You quit the cult and find that at an age where seduction would be second nature, there is only a blank spot on your brain?

Yes, it seems to be a widely-held belief among men: "If you don't use it , it will rot off." Seems more likely to happen if you use it indiscriminately.

(2)

One reason is sexuality - the "a$$holes" are not afraid to show that they are sexual beings

The implication here lies in portraying confidence, when the real truth simply lies in the fact "bad boys" think every girl wants them 24/7. it's not hard to miss cues from women when you think EVERYTHING is a cue.

(3)

'Nice guys' think women will be terrified of their sexuality, so they turn it off and all they get is women responding to their androgyny - sending all nice guys to Let’s Just Be Friends-land

The implication here lies squarely in the stereotype of 'Just Friends'...Not to belittle the "when harry met sally" wonderland this concept regurgitates, but i've never seen anyone in this scenario treat each other as friends. In fact, it's kind of hard to swallow the "friends zone" when it's anything but 'DOORMAT' (look, it's a stereotype, plus a really really old lie to boot. And everyone knows it's a lie, subconsciously)

One of the best explanations yet. What happens when a formerly non-aggressive decides to "turn it on"? He is so unpracticed that he is soon marked as a nuisance at best or gets accused of harrassment at worst.

MSG 17
So why do girls like a$$holes? The debate of nice guys vs a$$holes is one of the oldest of relationships and seduction issues. The essence of being a "nice guy" however is widely misunderstood. It is believed, that being polite, considerate, friendly, tender, romantic etc is what being a "nice guy" is all about and thus should be avoided, as it is the "a$$hole", the rude, the inconsiderate, he impolite, the rough guy who always gets to shag the girl while the "nice guy" is waiting outside in the pouring rain with flowers in his hand... and waiting... and waiting...

It doesn't however mean, that women prefer rude over polite, inconsiderate over considerate etc. It all becomes clear when we look at a very important issue often overlooked when trying to define, what makes the "a$$holes" beat the "nice guys" when it comes to getting the girls. One reason is sexuality - the "a$$holes" are not afraid to show that they are sexual beings, while for the "nice guys" hiding their sexuality is part of their agenda of being friendly, polite and courteous towards women. Big mistake…

Women fall for **stards because they don't turn off the sexuality. "Nice guys” think women will be terrified of their sexuality, so they turn it off and all they get is women responding to their androgyny - sending all nice guys to Let’s Just Be Friends-land"

Confidence. Another reason why women prefer a$$holes to nice guys is because a$$holes, in all their smug superiority, display more confidence than nice guys, who actually worry about what impression they make. “Nice guys” appear weak/lack confidence when they place a woman on a pedestal, showering her with gifts and flowers, agreeing with every opinion she has, being submissive. Woman like men who have a spine! Who have the confidence to stand by their own opinions.

P.S. I bet the only time he does tell you he loves you..is when it will get him out of a bind....Just think about it!

a real man is honest with his s/o and himself. he knows what he wants out of life and what he can offer. did i mention honesty ;) being open and understanding to the needs of others, not afraid to tell what he thinks and how he feels, be it a friend, companion or loved one.when it boils down to it, women and men are quite the same in many area's. not all of course. but we want we can offer. my 2 cents! ;)

Chrispe: Questeor is right. ALL people lie because they think they can get away with it. WHen confronted, often it's easier to lie more then it is to deal with the face-to-face guilt of being a liar.

It's human nature to be deceitful (not everyone, but generally speaking). It's too bad, but people just do not trust others anymore, and lying is far too easy these days.

post#1: "...We like the men who seem more confident, less interested in getting to know us immediately and setting up house somewhere, because that's the only way we can try to weed out the pyschos from the normal people..."

TheMorrigan
And so then, as painful as the situation is, you stick with it because on some level you DO get an emotional payback from "not giving up on them". Makes you admire yourself... It's called martyrism. And there's the crux.

So how do you get out of this cycle? Listen close, because here are the all-important first steps:

1) Take a good look at yourself and recognize that your devotion to this woman is no longer admirable, it's self-destructive.

2) GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION TO GIVE UP ON HER. This may even entail grieving for her as if she has died, but the key here is to LET GO.

I am much happier and healthier being slender than heavy and pray that I will never gain the weight back but I guess my question is: Is the body type that important or is it what is in the inside that counts?

How do you know this is his ex?

No disrespect meant but there are so many women out there. You do not need to go after your best friend's girlfriend. If they do break up, leave her alone and find someone else.
In my language we call that a faux paus.

Was it a case of him saying something embarrassing, you giving him feedback, and then him attempting to tell YOU it wasn't a "big deal" and a "non-issue" and didn't want to talk about it anymore. Thus, leading to incompatibility and "bye bye"?

"wow! if i can get RainMaiden to like me, i can get someone BETTER! Quick, pull the standard cliched melodramatic guilt trip so i don't feel like a shit dumping someone"

no, they don't work. rebound hookups are transitional, it's where you try to replace old memories with the new, but only to have them cancel each other out. and after that you move on to the real thing.

i had a guy do that to me! so i told him i sent it back to her to make sure he knew he was sending them out he got mad, of course i hadnt