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 Author Thread: what really should you do?
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 25 (view)
 
what really should you do?
Posted: 10/1/2008 12:14:41 PM

Booze/drugs lower inhibitions, and let a person's REAL side come out. How a person is when drunk/stoned is how they REALLY are. So, the " I don't remember it", or" I was stoned" excuses don't work. It was not a mistake that she hit on your pals. It was what she wanted to do-but didn't dare do-when she was sober....so she intentionally got drunk, so she could do what she wanted to do and then blame the booze. Dump her...or put up with a lot more of her cheating ways.


That isn't how the removal of inhabitions works. It takes you down to a level of thinking of when you were a little child. You will say whatever pops in your mind, and you are open to suggestion. Just like telling a kid to go punch someone, they will happily do it not once thinking about consequences or why they are doing it. Or on another level, you see something you want and you take it. Someone makes you mad and you lash out at them or hit them. You don't think about any consequences, you are reacting. That isn't how we really are, the alchohol shuts down a large part of our brain, including motor skills and analytical thinking. I am not making an excuse, that is just a fact about how alchohol affects us. Poor decisions aside, the way she REALLY is, is how she is when she is not limited to using a small portion of her brain.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 24 (view)
 
what really should you do?
Posted: 10/1/2008 11:59:55 AM
Whatever your drinking habits are, I don't think that is the issue. I think the big question is did you bring up the issue about not trusting women because you had been hurt before and how often. For someone to promise over and over that they wont do something bad, it generally means that they have a tendancy to want to do that thing they are promising not to do. It is like gambling, drugs, shopaholics etc. I promise I will never gamble or do drugs again, and sometime down the road they are back into it. The more they try to convince you they wont, the more of an issue it is for them. On the flip side if you were the one that kept bring it up to seek reassurance, it could mean that you are not fully healed. In which case at any point no matter what the situation, any mistake she made would be met with a reaction that was based upon someone else hurting you as well as her. That isn't exactly fair to her, and it can be self destructing for yourself.

And as far as drinking goes, when you get blitzed especially to the point of where you have periods of time of not remembering things you did, people tend to act like children and do what they want at that time. Your best friend took your girl friend to a strip club. That is a sexually charged scene to say the least. He pretty much set her up, whether it was intentional or not.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 29 (view)
 
I think I am too mean.
Posted: 10/1/2008 11:40:20 AM
My guess is that you have a sweeter, kinder heart than what you feel you project. Unfortunately those with kind, sweet hearts get hurt and in the healing process will do what they can to prevent themselves from being hurt. This starts off by trying to eliminate all of the people that we don't think we can have a relationship based on superficial, "mental" checklists, and then using a pre-emptive strike strategy to get the upper hand and keep it in a relationship.

If you feel that something isn't right, listen to your heart because something you are doing isn't agreeing with your true core values. I agree with the advice that it isn't about being passive/agressive, you can be assertive and true to yourself.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 15 (view)
 
What do you consider to be overweight
Posted: 10/1/2008 11:13:52 AM
I would start off by saying that people who are 20 pounds overweight tend to live longer and are sick less than people who are 20 pounds underweight (don't have time to grab sources but look it up if you wish). There is a bit of a struggle between what I find attractive overwriting what I know is most important in a relationship. What we find attractive is going to be different for everyone.

Generally I prefer someone who is in the 10-20 pounds overweight area. I find women in that range more attractive than the muscular type, more attractive than the tiny fit type, and more attractive than the underweight skinny type. Twenty pounds is just an average number, it depends on the body type, I suppose I would call it more of a full figure which can exist at hgher levels. Shape and curvature are more defining for me than true weight when it comes to attractiveness.

And I know that there are people who are going to be unappealing to me that have great personalities, but those relationships tend to go directly to a really good friendship rather than romance, especially on paper. Not giving people a chance based on a picture on a web page is a mistake. Often times I will find a woman to be sexy from her personality and the way she carries herself and the little things she does. And good lovers can be found in all colors, shapes, and sizes. Our eyes can be our own worst enemy when dating in many ways, and when you get to window shop on the internet it becomes much worse.

It seems that the days of boy meets girl, and they fall in love have slipped us by. Now we windowshop with a checklist of what we want and then try and grab whoever fits the bill that we can afford. More than likely you missed a number of people that you could have really had a good relationship or at least friendship with that that we pass by based on appearance, financial, religous, ethnicity, or family situation issues.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Just something I ponder...do you?
Posted: 10/1/2008 5:24:34 AM
Hi smarty,

Just a little background on me. I have been perpetually single ever since my first semester of college, so by no means am I a dating expert. Approaching 32 quickly and never married/no kids. At a very young age I imagined myself remianing single with no kids a bit into my adult life to give me time to expand my horizons, and get my self settled before settling down. I suppose that is more of my analytical mind and a bit of upbringing that had a lot to do with that. My parents always wanted me to wait until I was out of college before getting into a serious relationship, and I can understand the reasoning behind that. Now they would really like to see me married with children. I am still perfectly happy being single and as carefree as possible. Shoot, for the longest time I fought ever making long term purchases and preferred rent for the capability of getting up and taking off next week if events took me that direction.

The other side of things though is that I am a bit of an empath, and can be overly sensative. In my much younger days I would latch on to a relationship and it would become more important than anything else in my life. I took break ups very, very hard. And didn't really understand what was going on. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I built a wall around me. I added to that seeing the failed relationships of my friends around me and didn't want a part of that.

Well all of that combined together I fell into the mentality of looking for the perfect situation, or waiting for the perfect timing in my life, and I believe we all come to that point at some time in our lives. When you are looking for that perfection you will begin to have a mental check list of deal breakers, must haves, etc. The folly of this mentality is that you are looking for someone to fulfill your needs and desires that you currently have. Mix that with a bit of desparation and you can fabricate a perfect situation so you reach your goal artificially. The result of that I believe is that you find five, ten, twenty years later that your needs and desires have changed and the person that was qualified years ago no longer is, and it causes unhappy marriages or termination of the relationship.

I myself certainly held that mentality for the better part of the last 14 years. I had to ask myself what if I wrote off potential friends like I did potential dates. I would have missed out on making a lot of friends and enjoying the company of other people in generaly. My closest friends throughout my life I don't consider perfect, or a perfect fit for an ideal life. Certainly I could have just limited myself to friendships with people who were good looking, physically fit, financially wealthy, non-smokers, successful in their careers, held the same religous beliefs, enjoyed my same hobbies and had much to offer me and would make me happy. Instead my friendships were based around people I connected with and liked being around. They are still good friends.

So now I am trying to unlearn the last 14 years of mindset that I have had. It is definitely tough. Even reading a profile I still skim and make notes of my "mental" checklist. I know in my heart that I get along with the majority of people and connect with the majority of people, yet I am so quick to write people off based on what I think, I have to have in a relationship. Maybe the whole reason we do that is to protect ourselves from disappointment or even worse being hurt. I think deep down we are all looking for someone that we want to spend our days, weeks, and years with no matter what the current situation or hobby/interest is.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 116 (view)
 
catch 22 for guys over 30
Posted: 9/30/2008 2:31:24 AM
It is definitely an issue for both men and women alike. I fall under the category of single with no kids. People look at you like something is wrong with you when you are 30 plus, but that is just social conditioning. At the very least they think it is suspicious. I find it funny that people who have gone through disasterous marriages or divorces can not understand the reluctance of committment by a lot of the 20s and 30s people who haven't taken that step.

X's can be baggage, and I can understand that if they keep hanging around in someone's life or if someone just has a hard time of letting go. There is a healing process after a long term committment has ended. Children should never be considered baggage, and if you go out with someone who sees them in that way, then I would be rather concerned about the underlying character issues of that person. But it is also fair for someone who has no children to want to start a family of their own rather than go into a ready made family, that is different than considering children to be baggage.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
 
My date!
Posted: 5/28/2006 5:26:47 AM
Bravo for being up front with him about not feeling the attraction. As far as friendship goes, there is no reason you can be friends and just email every now and then. If you feel like he wouldn't be able to do that though there might be something else going on that can help explain the lack of attraction. It is a fact that "nice guys" are less attractive to women than the "bad boys". It has more to do with the "bad boys" being self-confident and presenting a challenge than them actually being bad. The nice guys normally suffer from low self-confidence, and will profess how much they like you too early presenting no challenge at all, in the worst cases they will try to buy affection, agree with everything you do and over compliment you. His appearance and presentation was off, and that does not reflect well on self-confidence. He also told you he really liked you and that presented no challenge to you. Don't be so hard on yourself, it probably wasn't based as much on physical traits as you may think.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 24 (view)
 
Required Reading Material
Posted: 5/24/2006 3:31:45 AM
I am sick of these foums today, mainly because logic doesn't enter anyones mind.


The thread and this statement are quite ironic. You are talking about EVERYONE generalizing too much, and logic not entering ANYONES mind right?
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 27 (view)
 
How do I love this girl and not hurt her
Posted: 5/23/2006 10:07:56 AM

addicts and recovering as u call it like to play the games to for sympathy as well myself i nvr had sympathy for one single druggy far as im concerned theyre worth crap and always will b , but my opinion isnt what matters its how they feel about themselves n the end that makes or breaks em. i nvr went to no program as u call it i quit when i turned 17 and nvr looked back, i got rid of every pos i used to hang with and made the life change needed so that when i turned 18 i could as they say put aways childish things, i think when we are young we need to experience life n all its pitfalls, but theres a place in life where u grow up and become a man. if the whole recovering addict act works for u then play that role but nvr stop playing it, myself i see it as a game . but then im a smoker who tried to quit to no avail


I think everything you said there is so true. I don't know what he was involved in, but at 26 it was very possible he was just into the whole partying scene. That was why I stressed dropping the old friends and places before you can make a change. There is a fine line in a habitual partier and a druggy, but one that you probably have seen in your experiences. My friends and I would go out every night of the week. They got off work at 10:00-11:00 and we would hit all of the clubs. Dabble here and there in different things, just always looking for a "good" time. At some point you have to grow up, it is cool that you did it at 18. I walked the straight and narrow till I was 19 and busted loose, sowed my wild oats, saw that worst of the worst, and I can leave that all behind because I know what it looks like in real life, and it is nothing like it is on TV.

I know where you are coming from on the recovering addict game, a lot of people will play it out, but there are those people who are really really controlled by substances and need all of the support they can get to make it by today. I have seen women who were addicted to pills, people addicted to alchohol, and those on other substances. They have a different situation than I did. When I quit, I didn't go through any physical withdrawels, just the emotional and psychological withdrawels of not being in a constant social environment. If you tried quitting smoking you have tasted a bit of what it is to go through a true physical/chemical withdrawel. If you are interested in quitting, I highly suggest doing the American Heart Association's program, it can work. My uncle just up and decided to quit and did it cold turkey, some people can do it others need some kind of structure to follow I guess.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 5 (view)
 
Any thoughts on being, or dating an animal rights activist?
Posted: 5/23/2006 1:23:08 AM
I don't disagree with hunting or fishing, but like re-cycle-stuff I despise people that hurt animals just to be hurting them. I got pissed at the humane society when I lived in Columbus Ohio there was a racoon trapped in a dumpster I called them, and they said if they came out they were going to kill it. So I just let it out using a box to help it climb out. I fish, I can't hunt, I don't have it in me to kill an animal or even a bird. I eat meat, I know what goes on in the slaughter houses, and I couldn't do it myself but steak is tasty. I hate seeing animals that are going extinct, feel sorry for animals in zoos, some of the normal stuff I guess.

Anyways I would consider myself an animal lover, but I see a lot of the activist groups as putting animals before people which I do not agree with whatsoever. I couldn't date a person like that for long, but another animal lover yes, and never an animal hater.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 16 (view)
 
How do I love this girl and not hurt her
Posted: 5/23/2006 1:03:59 AM
Don't take my message to mean I don't agree with what has been said before me please. If you are working the program get your sponsor, and actually work the program. Yes no dating for a year is a rule and one I agree with. I needed a year and about 8 months before I was ready to date again. If you are in a program you need to committ 100% and run these things by them first.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 14 (view)
 
How do I love this girl and not hurt her
Posted: 5/23/2006 1:01:09 AM
Hey hardbody, while I can not relate to having a romantic interest crushed by my subtance abuse, I can relate to getting clean and away from the party scene which in all honesty was my biggest downfall in my early to mid twenties. Many, many men in today's societies go through a partying stage once out of high school. A lot of us delve deeper trying things out, and many of us have substances get a hold of us. I am going to lay my opinion out to you from personal experience and share my experiences with you.

Personally I was addicted to partying more than any certain substance for 6 of my 8 years 19-27 (I am 29 now and I am removed from that scene going on two consecutive years, and had 5 months before then). One particular substance got a hold of me for 2 of those years, and it ruined my life. My lack of self-control cost me a good job at one point, I would hit a bottom work my way back up and hit another bottom, work my way up and hit another bottom. Each bottom got lower and lower. I sincerely wanted to end the cycles of getting paid, spending all of my money in 2 or 3 days and having to wait the next 11 days to get paid again cussing myself the whole time, promising things will be different only to find that I couldn't say no to going out with my friends which almost always ended up with me going after my substance when they went home to go to bed. My last bottom when things changed ended up with me with no job (on unemployment at the time which was drying up), no house (stayed with friends and sometimes slept in my car), and losing friends left and right due to my using them to keep my lifestyle going, my parents were all ready at wits end and didn't want to go through the pain I caused them so they told me to get out and stay out basically.

I had 5 months prior to that been clean for 5 months and doing great. I went out one night and hadn't trusted myself to any heavy drinking (which had been a trigger). A friend bought a round of tequila, even though I knew my tolerance was low I went ahead and drank it, and the next day I had lost my housing and my job because of a binge. My last night before I changed my life I spent the night at a men's shelter, and looked around at where I was and realized I needed help and couldn't do it alone, or through the other ways I had tried. I looked at checking myself into places, and it was a Sunday and couldn't locate anything, so I called my sister who lived in a different state and explained to her I needed help and I needed to get away from the party scene and my friends.

So I left it all behind, moved, and did a lot of soul searching. I do have my own beliefs and faith, and I believe that played a major role too. There was also a huge change on my outlook on life, and where my center is. My life centered around going out and having a good time with my friends. I believe a large part of my being able to move past that was growing up enough to be able to leave that for greener pastures. Without the desire to go out clubbing or partying with friends, my last 2 years have not been a struggle. I don't want that lifestyle anymore, and I don't struggle with day to day life, I don't even think about it. More than anything else I was addicted to a partying lifestyle that had took root at age 19.

What does that have to do with you or your questions you or others may ask. Well there are certain thoughts about addiction and recovery, and many people will put a one size fits all fix for people. I believe that you find what works, and you keep doing it. I believe that some people can change so drastically that it is hard for others to accept it, and that change comes from within, for yourself and no one else. My problems had less to do with substance abuse than it did with just growing up, taking on responsibilities and being a man and not a frat boy. I left everything behind, and moved on with my life. Some people are at different stages in their personal development, some never get past the need to go out and party and live it up phase. Some people don't ever go through it, some people grow up sooner than others.

Anyways as far as the woman goes, you need to be honest with yourself and determine whether or not she was part of the partying or a victim of it. You want to cut all ties with that old lifestyle if you are going to remain clean. I take it she isn't. And here is where you may not like what I am going to say. She has undoubtably been hurt by you multiple times. She will not be willing to just take your 5 months as good enough to put herself up for that again. She may never see beyond your past. It is a good sign that she still wants to go out with you. And I understand the feeling of not wanting to hurt her again, it shows you care. However, it sounds like you aren't sure you can get past the temptations, and you really need to get to a point where you know the past is past before you can go into a relationship with the self-confidence you really need.

The one year rule you speak of is mainly so you can work on yourself and make a lasting change. It is a milestone because from day 1 to day 365 the transformation is like night and day, not only in what you aren't doing anymore, but more importantly what you are doing. Knowing who you are, where you have been, and where you want to be is important to any persons well being, and when you go through things like substance recovery you take the time to really focus on them. In the end you can come out a much better man than a person who doesn't do all of the hard soul searching and just goes with the flow day to day.

I am not going to say not to see her, but I would be upfront with your feelings about her, and where you are personally in your life. Take things very very slowly. Keep yourself removed from your past lifestyle as much as possible. You can't have the same friends, go to the same places, and do the same things you did before and expect to stay clean, I tried it, it bites you in the butt. If you have changed all of those things, you are half way there, from here on out it just takes time and personal introspection. It doesn't leave a lot of room for an involved relationship, and you need to take care of yourself and remove all doubts before you can be confident in yourself and not worry about hurting her, I think she will understand if you lay it all out for her.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 4 (view)
 
Thank God,for POF!
Posted: 5/22/2006 9:46:09 PM
This is a great site, and the mods do a great job especially when you consider the user population and ammount of activity here.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 46 (view)
 
WHY WOMEN DON'T RESPOND: A REBUTTAL
Posted: 5/21/2006 2:02:47 PM

What I have done lately, and I recommend this to everyone, is make an email TEMPLATE, to the people you're sending emails to.

I get tired of typing, over and over...."Hello, my name is so and so,and I am 5'8" 160lbs, bronw hair...blah blah blah...I have a great sense of humor, great personality, etc etc etc....."

Of course, after all the repetitive rhetoric, make some additional sentences in regards to her personal profile.


That isn't a bad suggestion, the way I look at it odds are you will have to send out 100 emails to get 5 responses. A bunch of us should get together and do some research as to what catches the women's eye. I am thinking of trying out some ascii art. Been a while the only thing I really remember is / /\( . )( . )/\ \ It's a start though. Maybe put a border on your emails. It is part of nature, the male of many species is normally bright colored, loud, and does something to get the female's attention. In real life it is if you are confident, have a warm smile, and aren't a pervert to approach a woman most are going to talk to you (at least where I am in South Carolina, there are other regions where women were much colder). Online its hard to convey the confidence, charm, humor, warmth, and non pervertedness, especially in an email.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Going to the movies...
Posted: 5/21/2006 3:36:40 AM

okay, the prices are high because people are willing to pay that much. its simple, companies charge the amount that gives the highest profit.


Yeah, no doubt about it. The local movie theatre packs out all the time. I'm a bit frugal sometimes, but if I go out to a club I might blow 5 - 10 times the money I would have spent at a theatre
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Dating Yourself
Posted: 5/21/2006 3:34:12 AM
Good thread, nice read. I would like to add to that, when you aren't dating, take the time for self-improvement. I took some years off from looking for dates to figure out who I was, what I wanted, and to take care of a number of things I needed to improve. I didn't really set down an ammount of time, I just new where I needed to be to feel comfortable with myself and to be able to offer all I want to offer in a relationship. You never know when or where that special someone might show up in your life, when you stop looking is when things happen a lot of times. Definitely good advice to take yourself out and enjoy yourself, and more importantly for your emotional health don't feel lonely or like something is wrong with you. It is not only healthy to be happy with and by yourself, it is a great thing to have that emotional health when you do go into a relationship.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Going to the movies...
Posted: 5/21/2006 3:19:01 AM
When actors no longer demand $20,000,000 a picture, only then will the prices come down. The most of the cost of the ticket at the door goes to not the theatre, but to the movie makers themselves. The theatre makes most of it's money off of the snack sales.

The guy who sneaks into movies, and re-uses cups, and popcorn containers, is a thief plain and simple.


I agree about the guy sneaking into the movies, definitely a thief. I still think that the price of the movie tickets, and concessions is way too high. They put a markup on food and drinks that is only paralelled at Disney world. Those $4 fountain drinks costs the theatre a quarter at most. And so I don't see the value in wasting the money for over priced entertainment and snacks, so I go to the theatres too see great movies (which have been few and far between recently).

Yeah and definitely don't date a person who comes out and tells you they rip off theatres among other things. They cant be trusted.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Independence vs.feminism
Posted: 5/21/2006 1:21:29 AM
Independence is, " I can take care of myself, but companionship would be great", "taking me out to dinner, knowing I can pay for it myself", "I can hold down a job and take care of my family's needs, but would appreciate the help, but if I had to do it myself, I can", "I don't need a man in my life, but would like one".


That is what guys like, and is very very healthy. Unfortunately many women take a feminist attitude or take independence to the extreme and that is why when I hear the term independent I am prepared for the worst. Feminism is fine when it is asking for equality. Feminism is wrong when it asks for equality with a side of special priveleges. Independence is great when two independent people can become partners and realize that the two together can do more than the two separate. Independence is bad when it becomes an excuse for self-centeredness (I want what I want and I can't consider anyone else's wants or needs but my own if I am going to remain independent). Anyways I liked your definition that is the mindset I want in an independent woman.

As far as feminism goes, I am a single man, have been so for all of my life. I work, I pay my rent, pay for my car, cook my meals, clean my house, do the laundry etc. Is that a big accomplishment? Nope. A feminist will go on and on about having a career and keeping the house and act like it is something special that only women do. Big freaking deal, here's a cookie. Equality doesn't mean you are special, no it means you are like everyone else.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Going to the movies...
Posted: 5/21/2006 1:11:53 AM

people who steal make things only that much more expensive for us honest people who PAY And if you can't afford to go to a movie lol..you need a better job


Movies fall into the "entertainment expenses" category, and there are other things people can do with $20, like rent movies for the entire week. I really miss the dollar theatres I had near me in college. I would go to the movies constantly back then. It isn't about affording to go to the movies, it is the value you get. Last movie I went and saw was Napolean Dynamite, I blew $20 and that thing sucked so bad.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 34 (view)
 
WHY WOMEN DON'T RESPOND: A REBUTTAL
Posted: 5/21/2006 1:02:36 AM
When I have posted about women not responding I had absolutely nothing in common with the guy you spoke of above. I posted 4 to 6 lines to keep it simple and open up a conversation. I remarked about something I liked in their profile and invited them to check out my profile (which has more than 6 words obviously) and email me back. Yeah I would have deleted that message too, but most guys do a lot more than a 3 word message. Unforntunately men have to write something to distinguish themselves from the other guys that are emailing women to stand out. I believe that all of the sincere guys that are passed over for not being entertaining enough are replaced with players who know how to grab a womans attention. Then the woman writes up a thread wondering why there are only players on these sites. It is a two way street for the guys getting passed over and the women responding to the wrong guys I guess.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 6 (view)
 
Going to the movies...
Posted: 5/21/2006 12:53:52 AM
Stealing hurts the theatre plain and simple. I quit going to movies when it started costing me close to $20 for a ticket, drink, and popcorn for one person. I can rent a movie and nuke a bag of popcorn for less than $5. I hate to hear that businesses are struggling, but the prices have doubled in the last 10 years, and so I rarely go to the movies anymore. I am glad the music companies are getting the point and dropping the CD prices, I am much more likely to buy CD's now that they are reasonable. I remember when they charged $2 more for a cd than a caassette tape, and the CD's were cheaper to produce. At some point the theatres will figure out that dropping their prices will bring people back too.

Anyways the guy sneaking in needs to get arrested for theft of services, maybe then he will figure out it is wrong.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 25 (view)
 
How much Time Before You Meet
Posted: 5/20/2006 8:45:16 PM
Hambone,

I think that their have been enough horror stories given to women to justify certain types of paranoia, but I don't think it is rational. I find it kind of odd that many women feel the need to do background checks, and I have even seen some refer to credit checks as well before they will even consider a relationship. Then they will look up phone numbers, addresses and everything to make sure you are who you say you are. Granted it is done with a mindset of protecting yourself, however a man who does these things is borderline stalking and it would be taken as such. Kind of like your story, she is paranoid about letting you know where she lives, but knows all about your area. If a man remains private about details like that, we are perceived as having something to hide. There is definitely a double standard, privacy is fine for one party but not the other. I am willing to meet the mindset half way though just because there are those who have been convinced they need to be protective because their are too many people out to harm them in one way or another.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 11 (view)
 
How much Time Before You Meet
Posted: 5/20/2006 3:45:08 AM

Can be one hour or one year... length of time has nothing to do with it.


What would you call the relationship that year? Can't be dating because you aren't, and I would have no problem spending time with friends. Length of time definitely plays a major role, after a certain point either you are or aren't interested. Being comfortable with meeting someone in real life is one thing, being scared to meet people is another. Not to say that you personally are paranoid, but that would be the perception I would get from someone who needed more than a month of getting to know me before actually meeting me. No way I could I get close to someone without being able to meet them in person, whether it is romantic or friendship, over 3 months equals a pen pal, and nothing more to in my humble opinion. Certainly a pen pal can grow into something more, but I would definitely not consider a pen pal's feelings in my decisions to date other people.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
 
How much Time Before You Meet
Posted: 5/20/2006 12:21:37 AM
Three weeks is plenty of time to give a woman to feel comfortable in meeting you. I agree that a phone conversation is for making a date. When you drag out an online chatting or phone conversation relationship past 3 weeks you are risking having the other party lose interest. If they are comfortable with it, I am all for meeting within a couple of days, you can't judge people based on online conversations and online chemistry doesn't mean you will have real life chemistry, better to meet and find out. As a man I understand the risks women take to meeting in real life, so I would be fine with a little trial period first. But if I wanted an email/chat buddy, I would have posted that on my profile. Going past one month is just begging for that special someone you like to have someone in real life meet them, and bam no more messages, no more interaction, and many times no explanation.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 30 (view)
 
why do people have to be predjuce and judgemental?
Posted: 5/19/2006 7:52:15 PM
I tend to think that it is part of our human nature to classify things based on some sort of tangible. I guess it helps for organizing information in our brain or something like that. At first I thought this may be because of our education, but shoot people were classifying based on religion and race back in the earliest of empires. I obviously don't think stereotyping is anything new, I do feel that at least we are on the right track of seeing racism, sexism, and other bigotry as being a limitation and a bad thing.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 19 (view)
 
Creepy guys..
Posted: 5/16/2006 4:01:11 PM
^^^^^^

Listen to this guy and have her contact her supervisor or human resources department. I would be very uneasy if this were happening to me, and you shouldn't have to feel that way at work.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 21 (view)
 
You do WHAT for a living??
Posted: 5/15/2006 2:13:43 AM

I used to provide security to Strip Clubs in Sydney and Melbourne

Many of the working girls were in permanent relationships
I was married so never took up any offers I was given

Some of them were lovely people
Some were the scum of the Earth
Just the same as any other workplace


This man knows what he is talking about.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 11 (view)
 
You do WHAT for a living??
Posted: 5/14/2006 8:56:35 PM
I have gone out with dancers before, met one out and about a few nights ago actually, didn't go to well but that is not the point. I have also had many friends who were dancers, and some close friends who were hooter girls (not the same as a dancer but you would be surprised at the exact same issues they go through). Women who dance for a living are working a job, and their job involves working around disgusting men, lonely men, men who are just out partying, etc. The bad part of the job is they have to work the men for the money and it does get to them in some way or another. A rough day at the job may mean that a man treated them like a prostitute (which they are not), or it may mean that they didn't make any money while some girls who were prostituting themselves raked in the cash. These aren't issues that other people have to put up with in their jobs. Besides that at a certain point guys become paychecks, and that can leave them with a cold outlook on men in general.

Many women can get past this, have fun with their jobs, look at the dancing as an art and separate the men from the boys. It isn't fair to judge them based on their job, just like it isn't fair to judge a man based on his job either. There are some issues that will complicate things, especially if you do make a connection and date them exclusively jealousy will become something you will have to deal with, and some men can't handle it, and will ask them to quit dancing and change careers, which goes over just as well as when a woman wants you to change your career for whatever reason. It is definitely a tough situation though, and not wanting to deal with it is understandable.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 6 (view)
 
Help....relationship/dating advice
Posted: 5/14/2006 8:46:09 PM
I would be honest with your feelings and just talk to him about it. Communication is important, and it seems like this important to you so just talk to him about it.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 2 (view)
 
not having dated in a while...
Posted: 5/14/2006 8:41:49 PM
I am coming off 5 years plus of not dating, had to get myself in order first. I guess I can share the point of view from being around your same age. There are still people out there who are perpetually going to be players and users, some that are still out for a good time and nothing else, and then their are a lot of us out there looking for something much more meaningful. There are a lot of people who are divorced and have children, some people with other things that complicate relationships. All in all though things are a lot like they have always been just a bit more complicated and you may want to have a more open mind than you did in the past.

I have just found that if I look to meet people try to see where they are coming from and where they want to go and see if that fits with what I want then dating is interesting to me no matter if they don't fit into what I want or they do. I may get excited when I meet someone I am really interested in, but as long as I keep my head and know that it may not be a shared interest, or something may change I don't get my feelings hurt. And realizing that if you don't fit what someone else is looking for is not a slam against you personally, it is just preferences helps with seeing things in terms of not a match rather than rejection.

Hope it helps, my male point of view may not be to relevant though.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Must have job, car, house...are they after my cash?
Posted: 5/14/2006 8:33:18 PM

: Why do people always take this to mean the extreme of each side. You don't have to make $100,000+ a year to live comfortably. When women always come back about the guy complaining, they always act like he is on welfare or has a part time job making less than $12,000 a year in a trailer park. There is a very big range between poverty and being rich. I think most guys when they bring this topic up are in the $25,000-$50,000 range and live a normal non-trashy life. They just don't have a high status glamour job that women seem to crave.


It depends on where you live too. $35k where I am in South Carolina will provide a life style that requires $70-80k in places like New York City and San Francisco. There are differences in what women are attracted too, and some women will really like a man who is driven by career and monetary success. I know what it takes to be career driven, it is a massive ammount of time and dedication, and I would rather live my life outside of work rather than at work.

I will do what I can to move up and make myself more financially secure as long as it fits within a 40-50 hour work week. My father started his own business and retired with good wealth and a very comfortable lifestyle. It took a lot of risk, stress and 60-80 hour work weeks for 25 years of his life. Some women may want the man that is career driven but when it ends up meaning that all they do is eat, sleep, and drink their career they find that their other areas of their lives that miss that extra time spent at the job.

I think that the women who are attracted to the career man, see it as a way to identify the winner or alpha male. He is more successful, must be smarter, stronger, wiser, etc. It is fair to a point, and if that is what they are attracted too, there isn't anything you can say or do to tell them otherwise.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 14 (view)
 
Must have job, car, house...are they after my cash?
Posted: 5/14/2006 8:11:55 PM
Don't act like you would be fine with a woman who has nothing.


Money isn't everything, and I would be fine with a woman who has little financially but has an intrinsic value that can not be equalled with monetary wealth.


If you have squat, find a woman who has squat as well, and you can both live happily ever after taking public transit from your ghetto trailer to the food bank.


You would be surprised how happy a person can be who has nothing in posessions and does not value posessions. One hundred and fifty years ago a man who kept a roof over his families head and food in their stomachs was successful, now you are being picky over what type of roof it is and what type of food it is.


I, for one, am not going to drive a man around and pay for his share on dates. Pfft.


Being generous and able to share are good traits. Granted some people will seek to take advantage of those who are happy to give, but I would rather live with that risk then to carry around a mentality that everyone is looking to take advantage.


Isn't it funny how the men who have no money are the ones who call women gold-diggers?? Hmm... A man has to have gold (and plenty of it) before a woman can try to dig it up.


Well the man with little money will feel the sting of women who require a certain ammount of money before they will date them. Where as men who have the money have a rougher time weeding out who are the gold diggers and who love them for them. I would rather come off as poor than rich just for that reason alone.

I think women have a rough time communicating that they want a man who is responsible for his money and don't want to be someone's sugar momma. It comes off more that you are a gold digger when you make money an issue. It is just a subject that doesn't need to be discussed until you are in a relationship, not when you first start getting to know someone. That way it is easier to know where you are coming from because the man will know your personality.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
 
Where have all the honest johns gone. . .???
Posted: 5/14/2006 4:35:14 PM

@trooth...fair enough...but if she had no reason to expect some sort of a commitment from him...then why apologize for treating her badly?....he was playing her and he knew it...she had her doubts about his sincerity, and she was apparently right


You are absolutely right, and if he was seeing another woman at the same time he was probably playing her too. He apologized because he knew he was wrong, no doubt about it. And this is something I have given a bit of thought as to when is it ok to ask if your partner is seeing anyone else straight out, or where your relationship actually stands. There are women who will treat a guy as Mr. Right Now too, you know and if another offer comes up on the table well Mr. Right Now can be replaced.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 3 (view)
 
Where have all the honest johns gone. . .???
Posted: 5/14/2006 4:14:54 PM
Well to be fair unless the girl and guy had actually made a committment to not see anyone else, then he is not as bad as you would state in that he was not cheating. He wasn't being honest though if he was seeing another woman and was covering the fact saying that he was doing something else, and a player will do this. They won't committ to anything and they wont be up front that they are seeing other women. But like I said there is no cheating if there is no spoken committment, I would never assume a committment. But that definitely does not mean he is justified.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 27 (view)
 
Handling rejection with class
Posted: 5/14/2006 2:11:06 AM
It is natural to be upset when you are rejected. I look at the online dating more like sales though. You aren't going to close the deal all of the time, and when starting out you are going to get a lot of no's. You go back to the drawing board and work on your presentation and pitch, and you might get better results next time. My photos look like crap, I am rarely happy with a picture. If you see me out having a good time in life I look different from pictures and I have much more success meeting women when I am out and about and that definitely makes it easier if I get a read and no response or read and deleted. Same women meets me out in real life, and I will probably get a date, do it online and I don't spark enough interest. Online dating just hasn't been effective for me, it isn't the end of the world.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 21 (view)
 
Do I have a certain look or was I just lucky?
Posted: 5/13/2006 11:02:41 PM
Maybe it has been done in a different thread before, but is buying drinks sometimes a no no. When I went out with my male friends in my younger days I would buy them drinks and vice versa. Same went for the women I was hanging out with as friends too. I would strike up a conversation at a bar and it wasn't uncommon to exchange buying rounds with men or women, just more out of friendliness. I realize that some women don't want you to buy them drinks because they don't want to feel obligated, some people may want you to buy them drinks because they lack the funds and might use you for that. But I always have done it as a friendly gesture.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 20 (view)
 
Do I have a certain look or was I just lucky?
Posted: 5/13/2006 10:58:03 PM
Ruby and Liv,

I never really looked at it that way before. I do have that type of personality and friends/family would come to me with a wide array of problems. I have learned a lot from listening to other people and I do like helping. I guess I never looked at it as quality that strangers could see. I guess I seek to help people out by noticing and starting the conversation.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Do I have a certain look or was I just lucky?
Posted: 5/13/2006 6:12:22 PM
Trooth, I'll tell ya what. Next time a stranger wants to cry on your shoulder, don't be interested. Don't listen to the sad story (move if you have to), don't hang out with them. The bar staff would have handled Mrs. Off Kilter all on thier own....and I'll bet she lives like this, it was probably not a one time instance.

Would you have stuck around that long and went to another bar if it were a guy telling you his life's sad story? I'm guessing no.


You are right. I am not used to going out by myself to meet people. I always went out with a bunch of friends before, so I am not quite used to this thing. And yeah I wouldn't have listened to a guy lol. I think you are probably right about her doing that a lot, I kind of got that impression when she talked about a guy that had promised to give her money.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 4 (view)
 
Do I have a certain look or was I just lucky?
Posted: 5/13/2006 3:46:14 PM
wake me up plz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


It was a dating experience I felt like posting, yeah not written too well. I guess I am looking for input as to whether it is just better to not even try cheering people like this up, as it turned out to be a waste of time.

There is a humor section, perhaps your one liners would be more appropriate there.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 6 (view)
 
bipolar
Posted: 5/13/2006 1:42:16 PM
I have mixed emotions on this one. Bipolar is normally associated with very wide mood swings. I fell in love with a bipolar woman before, and it can be very demanding and draining. If you are able to control your moods, and don't use your condition to legitimize behavior then I wouldn't even bring it up, because you are able to handle it and it isn't an issue. The downside to saying you are bipolar, is it may be misunderstood as being an emotional or psychological problem. Their are people who are depressed, or have other emotional/psychological issues that really need to get things straigtened out with themselves before dating, and I think that is what may be sending guys running when you say you are bipolar. Bipolar is physiological though, it just gets used too much to explain why people have other emotional or psychological issues which with time can be resolved.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
 
Do I have a certain look or was I just lucky?
Posted: 5/13/2006 11:53:48 AM
Thought I would post about my experiences last night. I ended up meeting 4 women, had fun, got a little bit tipsy but oh well. I went to my new favorite club and was sitting playing trivia and talking to a couple I met who was also playing. A lady comes in and sits beside me, and is apparently upset. I am a good hearted person so I quit playing the trivia and start talking to her. She was upset because someone had let her down, among other things. So I offered to buy her a drink and since she was out of cigarettes bought her some of those too. We talked and shot pool, she was trying to get a hold of the man that had let her down because evidently he promised to loan her money for her rent. She asked some girls if she could borrow her cell phone and evidently they snubbed her so she got upset and was asked to leave the club, which upset her more. I got her to leave without making a scene and she drove me to another club where she was friends with the bartender and she used her phone. She got a hold of the guy and she literally told me "money is coming here". So she argued with him for a while in the parking lot, and since I didn't want to pay for a taxi I told her to take me back to my car before she left. The guy was an a$$hole, and made some comment to her about me and I just looked at him like please. I told her she doesn't have to put up with guys that are going to upset her like that, gave her my phone number and wished her good luck.

I went back to the club and met 3 other women, and had a good time. I am not sure what it is about me that draws women who are going through problems, that is the second time in a month where a lady who was going through some drama sat down beside me. I am not a cold hearted person, nor do I want to be, but I don't want to waste my time being a shoulder to cry on either. I did make it clear that I am not "money" though.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 19 (view)
 
I AM NOT A WEB CAM GIRL!!! SO QUIT ASKIN!!
Posted: 5/13/2006 11:32:27 AM
I am surprised that guys would ask for any nude pics. What is the point? The internet is full of pics if you want spanking material. If a gal has no problem with giving you nude pics, she will do so herself without you asking, and unless it is well into a relationship that would make me think twice about what kind of gal she is. As far asking about the webcam, if it is followed by asking for flashes or shows, I would drop the guy or charge 2.99 a minute.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 25 (view)
 
When you know it is time to walk away.........
Posted: 5/11/2006 12:39:40 PM
I met a woman hit it off, we exchanged numbers, I would call her number but it would go to voice mail and say the voice mail was full and that was it. I tried calling her twice got the same thing so I decided not to call anymore, she called me the next day. We talked for a few minutes I asked her out again, she said she would be free on Wednesday evening and that she would call me back. Wednesday she called and it had rang about 3 times before I picked it up, she must not have heard me because she hung up after I picked up. I tried calling her back got the same voice mail thing so I said feck it and never called her back, and she never called me back.

I know it is pretty unrelated to your story, but sometimes girls make it too hard for guys to contact them, and we just dedcide if you want to talk to me then you can call. And if you don't call then that is your decision.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Is it really LOVE?
Posted: 5/11/2006 12:32:13 PM

exclusive....we are together ever weekend....all weekend...im there all the time!
So callme crazy !!!!


Have you ever said or ever heard him say "I will not date any other people." Becuase otherwise you are assuming that you are exclusive. Also I agree about your friend being a little shady. She is trying to break you two up just to see if she can. Hey with friends like that....
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
 
is it ok to keep ur options open
Posted: 5/11/2006 12:24:52 PM
I would never just assume that a partner agreed on dating exclusively. I look at it as there is no exclusivity to dating until the two people agree to make that committment. And both people in the relationship will know when the time is right for that. Just because you go out on a couple of dates it isn't right to assume that you are the only person in the other persons life, and vice versa.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 60 (view)
 
Women! So you're smart, funny, independant and single..
Posted: 5/10/2006 3:27:33 PM
My apologies for my post. I sometimes take things a bit too literal, I blame it on being in a technical field. And I even know to try to understand what someone is saying first before jumping to conclusions.

Again Sorry.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 53 (view)
 
Women! So you're smart, funny, independant and single..
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:58:07 PM

Troth~ Get a life dude.. .. who gives a rats azz what the difference is.. .. stop trying to prove that you're smarter than what's his name.. . just because he's handsome doesn't mean he is dumb.. .. so don't bust his chops to make yourself look better....it's not attractive!


I don't even get how you guys felt the need to add all this dribble in the first place.. . it wasn't even that serious of a thread.. . .but you blabber mouths always have to go off half****d and flex your muscles.. .. ((for those that have some)) and bow out your chest... like you're strutting around the chicken coop hoping one of the chickens will think you said something smart enough to catch their attention.. .. shhhheeeesssh!

Lighten up !


~Ain't nothing but a chicken wing


Forums aren't for discussing topics, but for mindless chit chat? The desire for an "independant woman" to retain her independance and have her guy independant is moderately on topic for this thread, and certainly on topic for the relationships forum. As far as pointing out his misuses of the word and copying and pasting definitions, is because it was needed due to the misuse of the words in his reply which was meant to make me look like I didn't know what I was talking about.

Why do I care? I want to know if a woman who calls herself an independant woman expects to go into a marriage as two independant individual rather than a partnership that works together seeing eye to eye. That is important to me because that is not what I want, people who try to remain independant of their spouses get a divorce whenever their interests, desires, or drive takes them in a different direction.

FYI - I am not here to impress anyone, there are no women in my area that I am interested that have logged in in the past month, so I am just posting here, on topic. Trying to dominate a forum is sad I agree, but backing up your original post doesn't qualify.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 52 (view)
 
Women! So you're smart, funny, independant and single..
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:27:03 PM

trooth By no means did what I say get repeated in what you said. You competely extended the concept to an absurd extreme. The subtlety is completely lost. Read the two posts again and you will understand.


No what you posted was exactly what I said evidently you don't understand what the word independant means. It means you are free from all external influences, and only reliant on your self.

in·de·pen·dent Audio pronunciation of "Independent" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nd-pndnt)
adj.

1. Not governed by a foreign power; self-governing.
2. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
3. Not determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent: a decision independent of the outcome of the study.
4. often Independent Affiliated with or loyal to no one political party or organization.
5. Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity: an independent food store; an independent film.
6.Not relying on others for support, care, or funds; self-supporting.


To help clarify the point incorporating your limitions:
An independent person desires similar traits, as in [u]the opposite of dissimilar traits. Traits do not activities equal nor do they mean they have no commonality of life direction. Those are mutually-independent issues. It is naturally assumed that two independent persons would not be interested in being with radically different goals and aspirations.


An independent person would not care if they are with a person who had radically different goals and aspirations. It would make absolutely no difference if two independant people had radically different goals and aspirations. They are independant, and free from external influences, so how could both people be independent and affect by varying goals and aspirations? Either they aren't or they are not independant.


The point is that independence is a condition of NONDEPENDENCE and each person is an individual.


The only influence in an independant persons life is themselves. It is self governed, self controlled, self reliant, if you don't like it then you do not want to be independant.


Based on your weak insult, I'd say that you are looking to be in a codepedent relationship and the hypocrisy of you calling me self-centered is truly ridiculous in light of your quest for such an unhealthy Vulcan mind/body-meld.


If you took an insult to what you said yourself, then you need to take a step back and examine what it means when you say you want to remain independant all of your life. I did not lay a personal assault against you. I said the desire to remain independant is very self-centered. The desire to be independent ie. free from outside influence only goverened by your self fits the definition of being self-centered. If you don't want to be self centered then you will be allowing outside forces to influence your life and take into account other peoples needs, desires etc. And that means you are no longer independant.

self-centered
adj : limited to or caring only about yourself and your own needs

Funny you should bring up codependancy too because you do not know that word means either. But according to you I am looking to be in a relationship with someone who has an addiction (dependancy) and then I myself will be controlled by the person who is controlled by his dependancy. For you to come down on me so hard and to take personal offense on my statement that it is self-centered to remain independant but is more beneficial to be involved in a mutually beneficial relationship, a partnership where you work together. If you can't give up being free from outside influences and able to give up complete self-government, then you aren't ready for a partnership which involves outside influences and giving up self-government because there is another person in your life that you chose to be with.

co·de·pen·den·cy

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin)


Oh, here's a debating point for you to take home: When posting in the forums, do not assume that someone's post means that the generalizations made are either personal or have no exceptions. This is a nice place to explore ideas, generalizations are implicitly general unless otherwise stated. People post their opinions and if you don't agree, challenge the idea, not the person...and keep it clean.

Normally I won't make myself so clear but you definitely went below the belt and need to think about that a bit.

Be well.


Well you completely missed everything, and even after reading the literal definitions of the words, I will be surprised if you are willing to admit that the desire to stay independant is self-centered. You are completely wrong in thinking that a partnership means that someone has to be dependant on the other, it is 50/50 equal ground if someone is in control it isn't a partnership. And you missed the boat on the term codependant all together. When I was 18 and graduated from high school my dream was to become independant and experience life for myself, and then when I was ready I would be tired of independance and be happy to give it up to be in a relationship with someone who I considered my partner. You can tout your independance all you want but cannot be in a committed relationship and remain independant by definition, it doesn't work on pen and paper and it doesn't work in real life either.
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 49 (view)
 
Women! So you're smart, funny, independant and single..
Posted: 5/9/2006 2:00:12 PM

Interdependent = codependent = bad. Wanting anyone to be dependent on you is by definition self-centered and in practice controlling.

People can work together but still do their own thing, and they will be MUCH happier for it.


First interdependant is completely different from codependant. Codependancy is a psychological term and it is has very negative connotations. Interdependancy describes a mutually beneficial relationship. In other words Person A by himself produces 100 units, Person B by himself produces 100 units. When person A and Person B work together they produce 250 units. When person A and B works together to produce 250 units that is an interdependant relationship, they are mutually beneficial, however the benefit is only their when they work together. Making someone dependant on you is neither interdependant nor is it codependant, it makes a person dependant period.

Codependancy - a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition
 trooth
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 40 (view)
 
He gets a government cheque
Posted: 5/9/2006 1:26:11 PM

wow can you be any wronger your reading into things that arent there. I didn't say I wanted him to support me or my kids but atleast cover his own ass. So he can enjoy at least some of the stuff we do


So let me see I am going to Hawaii for my vacation and I would love for my significant other to join me, but she has to pay her own way. So I tell her I am going to Hawaii if you want to come along you cover your own ass, if you can't cover your own ass I don't think this relationship will work because you are just looking for a free ride. How about this, if you refuse to pay for him to join you, and you know he can't afford to join you, don't invite him in the first place, instead of embarassing him. You are creating the extra expenses for him and demanding him to be able to pay them, when you know before hand that it is beyond his means. Good luck with all that.
 
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