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Author
Thread: Mistakes evolutionists make.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
62 (
view
)
Mistakes evolutionists make.
Posted: 7/16/2008 10:52:48 PM
So, if we don't have ALL evidence for evolution, wouldn't it be 'scientific' to at least include the possibility of ID?
I know next to nothing about science, but it seems to me that if you are going to throw a political debate, you invite both candidates. Otherwise......what's the point?
Say you are an auto maker. You want to make sure your cars are safe, so you hire engineers to predict what will happen in a car wreck.
Engineer A takes measurements of your bumpers, calculates the tensile strength of steel, takes into account mass/velocity and makes a prediction. "I can't say for a FACT, but my THEORY, based upon FACTs like tensile strength of steel, suggests it's very likely a wreck above 50mph will probably result in injury."
Engineer B whips out a deck of Tarot cards. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. "I can't say for a FACT, but my THEORY, based upon the FACT that I've been sometimes right in the past, and I just drew the Death card, suggests any wreck at any speed will be fatal."
Engineer A: That's biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard!
Engineer B: But your position is only THEORY, not FACT! You've been wrong in the past; I've been right in the past, and vice versa.
Engineer A: Well, yes, it's possible I could be slightly off, and I don't know everything, but at least my theory is based on some known, provable facts. There's no provable evidence that Tarot has been a reliable predictor of anything.
Engineer B: See there? You just admitted you don't have ALL the evidence! You could be wrong and I could be right! I demand my theory be given equal time in the debate because it's at least possible.
Engineer A: But you're invoking the supernatural! Metallurgy doesn't allow for that.
Engineer B: You're a narrow-minded bigot who refuses to listen to alternative theories, and are actively trying to shut me up! How can we reach a consensus unless we hear from both sides?
Engineer A: That's it, I'm leaving.
Engineer A dies later that day. Was sitting in his motionless car at a stoplight when a drunk collided with him. Was the Tarot guy right? Actually, no. Engineer A's widow: "I knew it, I knew it! Henry was a Pisces, and this morning's horoscope said today would be a bad day for Pisces!"
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
71 (
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How does Christians cope without SEX ? or Intimate Encounters ?
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:21:49 PM
As I've already stated, "After all, if a teenager wants to be abstinent, why not support them in that choice?" What possible harm can come from supporting anyone who chooses to be abstinent? Why do you insist that abstinence is not an option? Why does it matter to you so much that their choice must be dismissed?
I never said wouldn't support a child choosing that path. I'd support a child's dream to be president one day, even though I know that's unlikely.
What I do not support is this idea of churches like the Catholics telling children that's the only correct moral choice, and leaving them ignorant of birth control and STD prevention. I do not support spending one thick nickel of tax money on abstinence-only programs. I would not teach my own child abstinence-only because I know statistically there's a 90% chance they will fail. I'd mention that as an option, but I'd make dang sure they have condoms and know how to use them correctly.
And in today's Dallas Morning News, yet another piece of the mounting body of evidence that's showing just how dangerous abstinence-only (whether Federal, State, or church-derived is:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/071408dntexabstinence.4fec6217.html
Texas spent a nation-high $17 million last year for abstinence education programs that continue to stir debate about whether classes promoting virginity before marriage work in public schools.
Federal statistics in June showed that 52.9 percent of Texas students in ninth through 12th grades had sexual intercourse, compared with 47.8 nationally. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also reported that Texas youths are less likely to use condoms.
Public schools in Texas are not required to offer sex education, but those that do must make the lessons abstinence-focused. Instructions about condoms are couched in terms of how often they fail, according to state law.
Abstinence-only supporters say more comprehensive sex education sends a mixed message to teenagers that having sex at their age is fine, while opponents cite surveys that they say prove abstinence lessons are failing.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
48 (
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Mistakes evolutionists make.
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:35:01 PM
First, it seems that people confuse natural selection with evolution. While NS does make changes in a species over time, it does not change a species. In previous post, someone brought up giraffes. NS might make their necks longer and heads harder (insert joke here lol) but it won't take a rabbit and over time change it into a giraffe. The most you might get is a rabbit with a long neck. Hardly the same thing genetically. So, while NS is pretty indisputable, it is not proof of evolution anymore than finding a nail in a tree is proof that trees evolved into houses.
Take a look at Tiktaalik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik), a fossil found in Canada in 2004 that's half-fish and half-amphibian. It's a perfect example of a transitional fossil that is exactly what you claim to be impossible: one species (fish) evolving into another (primative four-legged animal).
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
11 (
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Is Society Molesting Children?
Posted: 7/3/2008 12:07:16 AM
I know exactly what you mean. Society does atrocious acts upon children.
Take my roommate, for example. His six year old son can't read yet, but can write his name. I don't think the kid really understands what words and letters actually mean at this stage of his development. He believes anything adults tell him to be true -- Santa, Tooth Fairy, Storks bring babies, Easter Bunny, etc. All these little white lies amount to is minor fun for parents, and a convenient way for adults to sidestep serious discussion with a child too young to understand.
But there's that Jesus cartoon book. That's the one exception to the rule. Maturity brings a mind developed to use logic and reason - kids figure out the Santa story is BS based upon their observations of how the world really works. Some parents may miss the innocence, but they have to appreciate their child is growing into a thinking being.
The thing about the Jesus thing is you must constantly indoctrinate kids -- if you keep silent on the issue until they have fully-developed brains (age 18?), your child most likely will say "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!! Virgin births, walking on water? Dad...seriously...has your governor been teaching you how to grow marijuana?"
One would assume there's a higher majesty in letting kids decide their own faith of their own free will, and if they do, it's better than indoctrination (hence the Apple/Snake/Garden of Eden?Free Will story).
Few Christians I know take that chance.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
10 (
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Strangest Compliment
Posted: 7/1/2008 11:10:41 PM
I got you all beat, flat-out:
"Your thumbnails are more interesting than Kansas."
Got that in a text earlier this week. I just checked my phone to make sure I had the quote right.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
56 (
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Christianity 'could die out within a century'
Posted: 7/1/2008 10:41:04 PM
I read somewhere that France may well become a majority Muslim place in not too many years. I don't think anyone around during the French Revolution would have imagined that.
Xtian is certainly on the wane in GB, but I'm sure some other superstition will crop up. Human history is littered with gods once popular, but now forgotten. And we keep getting these new faiths that spread like wildfire, yet are so preposterous the god of the Xtian bible seems somewhat plausible in comparison. Mormons, Scientology, etc.
On the bright side, it looks like the more intelligent people are, the more likely they reject all superstition. Add to that, people as a whole are getting more intelligent.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
15 (
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what do you think of this theory on God and evolution
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:30:58 PM
Well, if a god did do that, he's quite subtle.
Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans all have 24 pairs of chromosomes, very much like humans in both number and appearance. Except humans have only 23, not 24. A clue lies in human chromosome 2 (from Wikipedia)
Chromosome 2 is widely accepted to be a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes. [3][4] The evidence for this includes:
* The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan. [5][6]
* The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 we see remnants of a second. [7]
* The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 we see additional telomere sequences in the middle. [8]
Chromosome 2 is thus strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2."[8]
Ah, our Designer's so crafty he knew he could splice two chromosomes from a chimp and get a human. :) Don't get all hot-and-bothered just yet; there's a couple of problems with that:
A) IDers tend to also be creationists who like the idea that humans possess some majesty that apes do not, because the bible tells them god created man in god's own image. A mere fork or gene mutation suggests maybe we're not so special.
B) Back in Darwin's day they didn't have the understanding of life at the molecular level that we do today. He knew nothing about the intricacies of DNA; he just observed. But his observations are compatible with what we know today. The more we learn, the more it looks like Darwin's theory can explain life without invoking a deity.
I don't think evolution and creationism can coincide with each other. Science works like A->B->C->D->E-> Creationism works like works like A->B->"God did it"->D->E->
Your post reminds me of the Bill Hicks joke - "God buried the fossils in the ground to test our faith." :)
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
35 (
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How does Christians cope without SEX ? or Intimate Encounters ?
Posted: 6/19/2008 12:56:58 AM
Sorry, Aqua, but my comments are absolutely on-topic. "How do Christians cope without sex?" It seems impossible to adequately cover the subject without discussing virgins (by definition, 'people without sex').
As to stats, if you truly want to know "How do Christians cope without sex?", you have to look at...um....actual Christians, who avowedly do not have sex, to see how they actually cope.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
20 (
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SUGAR THE BAD GUY ????
Posted: 6/19/2008 12:32:18 AM
I read something recently that said artificial sweeteners aren't "bad" in themselves, but using them a lot makes the body crave sweets, therefore making it easier to fall off the diet wagon.
I merely scanned the article, but in my own eating habits, I don't think that's true. But we all have our own biologies -- could be true for 56.92% of people, but not me.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
32 (
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How does Christians cope without SEX ? or Intimate Encounters ?
Posted: 6/18/2008 10:30:29 PM
Those "Stupid abstinence programs" affirm and support a valid choice for those teens.
I'm surprised it's news to you that these programs are even worse than failures. It's not just one obscure study saying so -- there's been regular media reports of this for years now, resulting in a substantial collection of research. This is a good resource -- 55 pages long, and extremely footnoted with sources:
http://www.legalmomentum.org/site/DocServer/SexLies_Stereotypes2008.pdf?docID=1001
A study of adolescents who took virginity pledges, a common feature of abstinence-only programs, found that while pledgers delayed sexual debut slightly, when they did engage in sexual activity, they used condoms less frequently and were less likely to be tested for STIs than non-pledgers.87 Also, students who took part in abstinence-only programs were more likely to incorrectly believe that condoms do not protect against STIs.88 Given the other common impediments to condom use - cost and availability, decreased physical sensation, lack of "spontaneity" - if teens are taught that condoms provide no advantage in preventing pregnancy or disease, they are even less likely to use them regularly.
It is insulting to these young people to assume that they are incapable of remaining sexually celibate
An article in the NY Times 2/16/2005 quotes a survey of 12,000 kids. 88% of those that took a "virginity pledge" ended up having sex before marriage anyway. So yeah, it's a safe assumption.
What's really scary is when the male pledgers did have sex, they used a condom 40% of the time, yet the non-pledgers used condoms 59% of the time.
Not only do abstinence-only program not work, they actually makes things worse, and since 1982 we taxpayers have paid $1.5 billion for the programs. And in GW Bush's first four years, federal A-only program funding has tripled.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
17 (
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Bible and modern life
Posted: 6/17/2008 1:17:43 AM
I hear alot of people saying how long ago the bible was written , and that it does not apply to modern life today. They never explain why.Saying it is too old to really make any impact with the world we NOW live in .
Can anyone go into depth with this? As to why?
A truly surprising question.
I could go on and on for days, but consider just one thing: slavery.
The God of the OT actively condoned slavery, within certain contexts (gotta give those poor slaves Sundays off -- 6.000 years from now we'll have NFL on TV). In the NT God never condemns slavery. In Timothy it's suggested slaves should serve their masters especially well if the master is a Christian.
Largely, in the world we live on NOW, we have ungodly views of slavery. Slavery has been practiced universally (and utterly non-controversially) for most human history - it wasn't seriously questioned until a few hundred years ago. Some questioners were people of faith (in open defiance of the Bible), some, non-deists.
Those crazy humans -- defying God's law merely because they have a changing morality. So, they can either abandon the Bible as a moral code, can make it flexible on interpretation, or insist it's infallible.
These ancient texts are kicking and screaming against the modern world. New morality, science and fact almost daily posit things that contradict the Bible. If you cannot let go of your faith, taking Door B (loose interpretation) makes sense. You cannot yet pick Door A because that means your faith was built on nothing but lies, and Door C isn't good because it hastens the arrival of Door A.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
14 (
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How does Christians cope without SEX ? or Intimate Encounters ?
Posted: 6/17/2008 12:27:03 AM
My parents raised me in a right and moral way. Babies come from storks. Now, if the storks want to practice celibacy in line with with their religious beliefs, it's not my place to judge them. Unless, of course, it's two male storks. Then it's time for the birdshot (in accordance with God's wishes as spelled out in the Bible).
Seriously, aside from kids coerced into saying things they don't believe in those stupid abstinence programs, nearly all Christians I know aren't celibate in their premarital lives. I know one guy who says he's "saving himself" but even he admittedly has fallen off the wagon.
The religious views on celibacy (and sex in general) I think are just insane (whatever happened to "go forth and multiply?"). We know from studies that, if anything, abstinence programs get young people engaged in oral and anal sex more often than their non- celibate peers, but also are more to have unprotected sex. If you put away dogma for a minute and consider reality and the science, celibacy is just a bad idea to sell to people.
My trying-to-be-celibate friend above? His issues are compounded. He's the most devout Catholic I know, and while he presents himself to the world as a heterosexual, my friends figure he's really gay. Not George Michael/Elton John gay; more like Ted Haggard/Tom Cruise gay.
He must be struggling with his desires and demons and faith and guilt must be pure torture at times. We figure sometime in his 40's he'll eventually snap. He'll have a wife and kids by then, and all of a sudden he's hanging out in gay bars, gesturing to other men in airport bathroom stalls, hiring male prostitutes, etc.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
17 (
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Christendom’s grandest place of worship
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:14:12 PM
If you convert it back to a Christian church, who going to attend there? Turkey is 99% Muslim.
If this happens, it's likely the building will fall back into a state of disrepair. It takes a lot of money to maintain a building like that, and I don't think they'll make it with the Sunday collection plate.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
5 (
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Snack food suggestions
Posted: 6/3/2008 12:45:17 AM
I'm a desk jockey too.
I plan my snacks at work - I grocery shop Sundays for the coming work week. The only thing I consistently get are small Granny Smith apples (~70 cals, and I love apples). I eat one every morning before I even log into the network. And I always do either a protein bar or shake. I vary everything else:
* Lowfat yogurt (~110 cals)
* Lower salt mixed nuts, sometimes mixed 50% with peanuts.
* Dried berry mix (I always keep on-hand). Go easy on this -- easy way to scarf down lots of sugars/cals.
* Fresh berries/fruit. This week -- cherries were on sale. Next week, maybe bananas.
* The few raw veggies I actually like -- carrots, celery, broccoli....nothing that needs ranch dressing to be appealing.
* Protein bar (trying one now with 310 cals, 32g protein)
* V8 Fusion Lite (50 cals per 8oz, full serving of both fruit/veggie)
* Quaker Weight Control instant oatmeal (not looking to lose weight, just best mix of cals vs. protein for my goals)
* Lean beef jerky
* Sugar-free puddling cups, for when I crave sweets
* Lower-fat cheese. Non-fat tastes like $#%, low-fat is best compromise.
Aside from that, in the workplace the biggest temptation is lunches with coworkers ("Let's go to BK for a Triple Whopper!"). Your best defense is to load up on fillings with low cals 20-30 minutes beforehand. Tell them to hold the mayo and add mustard instead. 40 carrots an hour before lets you rule the menu, not the menu rule you. Cravings? Covered. Cal limit? Covered.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
2 (
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dumbell bar suggestion
Posted: 6/2/2008 11:54:16 PM
Join a gym that will chastise you for dropping weights.
I use a mix of fixed bells and one set of adjustables. I have to question if it's really worth it to need to drop weights. I work out in my carpeted basement - dropping raw iron hex bell will likely cut the carpet. Can you get 99.5% there without the drop?
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
9 (
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minor anxiety/panic attacks
Posted: 6/1/2008 2:58:51 PM
I had a panic attack one time, about twelve years ago. I went to the hospital, but by the time someone could see me, it went away. I worried that it might happen again, but it never did.
Do yours reoccur?
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
28 (
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Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party
Posted: 5/29/2008 12:41:54 AM
Barr is nothing but a LINO. Libertarian In Name Only! When he was a member of congress his stance on almost everything that sets the Libertarians apart from the other two was always with the GOP. He is NOT a Libertarian in any way whatsosever.
That could be. He says he's sorry for voting for stuff like the Patriot Act, and surprisingly enough, after he left Congress (where he was one of the worst Drug Warriors) he became a lobbyist for the Marijuana Policy Project, an off-shoot of NORML. Is he merely slippery, or could he have had a sincere change of heart? Given his extremes on both sides of the pot issue, it's troubling I can't find any drug policy positions on his web site. He sounds truly remorseful for the Patriot Act...where's the remorse for gay marriage/Wiccans in the Army/[insert social conservative issue here]?
I don't know why he ran for their nomination because his political views do not reflect the Libertarian platform. Perhaps he has a book to sell and this will give him good PR.
If I were a Rep, and I wanted PR for myself, book deal/book selling, etc., the dumbest thing I could do is leave the Reps for a fringe party that might get 300,000 votes for Prez, stick with them for a couple of years, take a job as a pot lobbyist, etc., all-the-while knowing my actions may offend my Religious Right bona-fides I built my Congressional career on? He'd sell more books by going Dem.
For now, I give him the benefit of the doubt. But I carry huge, huge doubt.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
22 (
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Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:26:38 PM
As of Sunday, Bob Barr is the LP's man. Not exactly my ideal LP choice (way too socially conservative for my tastes), but I'm happy he's the man. He has name recognition and given today's climate I bet he gets more votes than any LPer before him. If he can raise money like Ron Paul did, it's even possible for him to pull a Nader.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
8 (
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One Crazy Christian Chain Mail
Posted: 5/24/2008 4:36:30 PM
It's scary that should a gigantic war break out in that part of the world and millions got tragically killed, there's people who will look at it and think "Oh goody! That means Jesus is coming!"
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
8 (
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Fish Oil
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:06:28 PM
I'm curious about this. I take fish oil, but nothing near that level. The label says 3 a day (pretty standard-sized capsule). What is taking large amounts supposed to do you for you that the recommended amount won't?
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
5 (
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Caffiene and sugar boost pre workout
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:59:03 PM
I'd think the factor is something other than coca-cola. Coke certainly has plenty of caffeine and sugar, but at only 2-3 ounces, it's not much. 3oz of coke is 37 calories and 8.6mg of caffeine. It just isn't enough to be a factor (unless you weigh under 50lbs).
2 or three cans, rather than ounces, well...that's different.
I gave up coke and most all soft drinks. I have been downing a sugar-free Red Bull type product before workouts, but I honestly can't say I've noticed a difference.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
32 (
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Atheists, boy Scouts, and the new commemorative coin
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:21:57 PM
You keep claiming they are receiving taxpayers money, but you haven't produced any proof they do. In fact, the only proof you've shown is that they did and the grant/reduced rent/whatever was rescinded because of their non-hiring practices.
Where's the proof?
I suppose you could have looked up that Fox News thing I quoted...must have been too much work.
See federal statute 10 U.S.C. § 2554
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00002554----000-.html
The Secretary of Defense is hereby authorized, under such regulations as he may prescribe, to lend to the Boy Scouts of America, for the use and accommodation of Scouts, Scouters, and officials who attend any national or world Boy Scout Jamboree, such cots, blankets, commissary equipment, flags, refrigerators, and other equipment and without reimbursement, furnish services and expendable medical supplies, as may be necessary or useful to the extent that items are in stock and items or services are available.
And there's more if you're willing to follow the link. It's not small potatoes -- ever been to a Jamboree? I attended the one in 1976 (I lied about my atheism back then, even though lying is against the BSA code). It's a huge event that requires lots of gear and personnel. It's well documented that it costs the Defense Department $6-8 million to do these jamborees.
How do I know it's well-documented? Google Winkler v. Rumsfeld, a US Court of Appeals lawsuit that tried to end the subsidies.
The military spent $6 million on the 1997 Jamboree, almost $8 million on the one in 2001, and - until the district court’s injunction - it was scheduled to spend another $7.3 million on the 2005 Jamboree.
Guess where you'll find the PDF of that ruling? On the Boy Scouts own website!
http://www.bsalegal.org/downloads/Seventh%20Circuit%20opinion%2005-3451.pdf
See also the Support Our Scouts Act of 2005. And by the way, the injunction exists no more. The court threw out the lawsuit, and Congress passed the 2005 Act to keep the pork barrel flowing: "The Secretary of Defense shall provide at least the same level of support under this section for a national or world Boy Scout Jamboree as was provided under this section for the preceding national or world Boy Scout Jamboree."
Proof enough for you?
The solution to this is really very simple. We all know the BSA isn't going to change it's mind about atheists and gays. That'll never happen. The simple thing is, end the subsidies.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
13 (
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Atheists, boy Scouts, and the new commemorative coin
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:04:41 PM
Example of subsidies:
SF Chronicle, Oct 17 2006:
"The U.S. Supreme Court denied an appeal Monday by a Boy Scouts affiliate that lost its rent break from the city of Berkeley because the Scouts exclude gays and atheists."
"The court, without comment, let stand a California Supreme Court ruling this March that said a city is entitled to subsidize only organizations that comply with its anti-discrimination rules."
Philadelphia, PA Oct 2007. Boy Scouts lose $1 rent, asked to pay fair-market rent of $200,000 because of their discrimination practices.
In city after city and some states, the BSA is losing subsidies.
The biggest subsidy comes from the Pentagon. The Defense Department spent about $8 million for the 2001 Boy Scout Jamboree. (Fox News, July 7 2005).
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
12 (
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Atheists, boy Scouts, and the new commemorative coin
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:44:46 PM
Anyone who wants to mint coins is free to do so, they just cannot be used for legal tender. The privately owned Franklin Mint did that for many years, as does the National Collector's Mint today. Google them -- they sell a Silver Eagle coin with George Bush and Rudy Guliani on it.
The BSA could have contracted with the National Collector's Mint to produce a line of coins, but why do that when you can get the federal government (taxpayers) to pay for it?
The Boy Scouts do not kick out children who wants to be scouts
Absolutely not true. There's plenty of kids that have gotten the boot. NY Times, Nov 5 2002:
"Darrell Lambert, an Eagle Scout with 37 merit badges, said he had been kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist."
they just don't hirer people who don't have the same moral values as they try and up holed.
Right. As a private organization, they can do that. But once they start taking public money, that is illegal discrimination. Go read the Wikipedia entry "Employment discrimination law in the United States."
And no, I'm not being a bigot. I just don't want my tax dollars going to support bigots.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
1 (
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Atheists, boy Scouts, and the new commemorative coin
Posted: 5/19/2008 11:29:15 PM
I was in the Boy Scouts as a child, and I enjoyed it. I used to think it was a fine institution that did good work.
Last week the House of Representatives passed HR 5872, a bill to create a commemorative coin to honor the Boy Scout's upcoming 100th anniversary. I've got no problem with that -- they put Elvis on a postage stamp, they can put an Eagle Scout on a coin.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:2:./temp/~c110BvmpfF::
But the bill goes much further. $10 from each coin sold will be paid to the Boy Scouts of America. If they sell all the coins, that comes to $3.5 million to the BSA. That I have a big, big problem with.
In America we have freedom of association. You want to have a private club that's all white or Muslim or non-handicapped or Christian or female, and deny entry to others, that's your freedom. I may despise the KKK, but I do respect their right to exist. What I would not tolerate is them receiving federal subsidies.
The Boy Scouts are not the Klan, but they do discriminate. When they discover an openly gay or atheist scoutmaster, employee, or scout, they kick him out. From the BSA's own website [emphasis mine]:
http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp
* Employment
With respect to positions limited to professional Scouters or, because of their close relationship to the mission of Scouting, positions limited to registered members of the Boy Scouts of America, acceptance of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law is required. Accordingly, in the exercise of their constitutional right to bring the values of Scouting to youth members, the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.
Is is unfair and morally wrong to take money from gays and atheists and give it to groups that exclude them, even if done in a round-about way of a fundraiser. If the BSA wants to remain the bigots that they are, they need to mint and sell their coins themselves, without assistance from Congress.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
7 (
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E-Mail Prayer Chain Letters
Posted: 5/18/2008 2:58:43 PM
I pray for an end to chain letters.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
17 (
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Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/17/2008 2:53:47 AM
This is what passes for news these days? Jeebus!
Anyone who's been been following the global warming drama could have told you the main beef is about human activity and the footprint it occupies.
You're mad about SUVs? It makes perfect sense to carry that moral indignation to the gas mileage a 300lb guy gets in a car vs. a 150lb driver.
It's comforting to assume the world is going to hell because a few fatcats strangle 1,000 cute little kittens to buy a Rolex watch, but the reality sits right there on the sign below the Golden Arches: xxx billion served.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
44 (
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Evolution: Highly probable?
Posted: 5/12/2008 5:52:19 PM
It seems to me that the genesis version of creation seems to be the default one referred to unless specified otherwise. The first example of observation refuting it that comes to mind is the fossil record. If every critter was created in a week, we would expect to see every critter mixed together in the fossil record. Trilobites with dinosaurs with rabbits with donkeys with humans with etc etc. Instead, the hundreds of millions of fossils are not mixed together at all, and only appear at certain times (at certain strata) in the fossil record.
The late, great comedian Bill Hicks had a perfectly logical explanation: God buried the fossils in the ground like that to test your faith.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
22 (
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Pot smoking leads to Teen Depression/Suicide.....
Posted: 5/12/2008 5:38:30 PM
I'm depressed that my government lies to me about drugs. :(
Study Shows Surprisingly Few Negative Impacts on Kids Who Use Marijuana
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/november082007/pot_youth_11707.php
(SALEM, Ore.) - The oldest continuously published pediatric journal in the country, a Journal of the American Medical Association called the "Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine", has released new information indicating that pot smoking teens tend to function at better levels than teens who also smoke tobacco, and better in some ways than kids who abstain from both.
Completed in Switzerland, the study also found that those who use only cannabis were more socially driven, and showed no more psychosocial problems than those who had never taken either of the substances.
As far as marijuana leading to harder drugs, the authors of the study say an accurate listing of the problems actually fall in a different order, and that cancer related illnesses suffered by cigarette smokers are the biggest risk of all.
"The gateway theory hypothesizes that the use of legal drugs (tobacco and alcohol) is the previous step to cannabis consumption. However, recent research also indicates that cannabis use may precede or be simultaneous to tobacco use and that, in fact, its use may reinforce cigarette smoking or lead to nicotine addiction independently of smoking status."
The study conducted by J. C. Suris, M.D., Ph.D., University of Lausanne, Switzerland, and team examined information from a 2002 national survey, involving 5,263 Swiss citizens aged 16-20 years. 455 smoked just marijuana, while 1,703 smoked both tobacco and marijuana. Another 3,105 students in the study had never used either substance.
Some Go Without a Cigarette - Characteristics of Cannabis Users Who Have Never Smoked Tobacco, finds that, "Interestingly, our results do not confirm our hypothesis of better overall functioning among abstainers. In fact, what our research indicates is that the main difference between COG (cannabis-only group) youth and abstainers is that the former are more socially driven: they are significantly more likely to practice sports, and they have a better relationship with their peers."
The article says there are some drawbacks, and one of those is an affect on school attendance. But overall, the study indicates few notable problems in the youth who smoke marijuana.
"Even though they are more likely to skip class, they have the same level of good grades; and although they have a worse relationship with their parents, they are not more likely to be depressed. Nevertheless, our results seem to indicate that, although typical of the adolescence process, having good support from friends together with a less solid relationship with parents is a risk factor for occasional cannabis use."
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
38 (
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DARWIN - Identity Theft?
Posted: 5/8/2008 11:59:02 PM
The exact reason why I would never have anything political or religious/non-religious plastered on my vehicle ! Never underestimate the power of an idiot walking by.
Kinda like getting pulled over for speeding, and the officer wants to know what your "bad cop - no donut" bumper sticker means.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
32 (
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DARWIN - Identity Theft?
Posted: 5/8/2008 4:31:58 PM
I read that article. It was by Jonah Goldberg in National Review. Google "The Evolution of Religious Bigotry" and you'll find it. Goldberg says:
"I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there’s the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers."
I personally don't find them offensive, but I'd never put one on my car. I'd worry that someone who does find them offensive might key up my car.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
23 (
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question for christians
Posted: 5/8/2008 4:04:41 PM
Doing a little skimming of the bible, I found this in John 3:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
In Matthew Jesus also says to follow the commandments, sell your possessions and give to the poor. For doing that, you get eternal life. If you do not believe Jesus is the son of god, you get condemnation. John later goes into detail of what that condemnation is comprised of.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
21 (
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question for christians
Posted: 5/8/2008 12:52:16 AM
first off, this thread is not at all meant to be disrespectful. I respect all beliefs. it's just an honest question. christians believe that jesus christ is going to one day come back. they believe that he will rise again. my question is this. we have had several people who have claimed that they were the second coming of jesus christ. how will a christian know when it is the right person?
Interesting observation.
Off-hand, I'd say it doesn't matter.
The faith-in-Jesus bit: you get fooled by a fake, it doesn't matter because you believed in Jesus all along. According to the New Testament, that faith alone makes the cut. Jeffery Dahmer accepts Christ just before he dies, he's in. He makes the cut over many who lived largely sinless lives but never heard of Jesus, or untold numbers of babies not living past their one-month birthdays.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
88 (
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Truckers Protest Fuel Prices in DC today
Posted: 5/8/2008 12:16:04 AM
"Just knowing the influence that our citizens have to talk to our congressmen and senators ... This is awesome," said Nathan Horn. "We really need to bring the fuel prices down for the common person."
Since the price of oil (gas) is a global market, it's hard to see what Congress can do about it.
I'm totally against subsidies for oil companies, but Big Oil needs to satisfy their shareholders (plenty of which are probably truckers with 401k holdings in Big Oil stocks). BO isn't going to stand by and watch profits turn into losses, so they are going to pass it off to the consumer.
I'm fairly sure that's a wash, but ending subsidies is worth doing because it's market tampering by government, which only masks the true cost of things and makes the whole market process less efficient. The government has no business picking winners/losers in the marketplace, and attempting it is always worse.
I'm all for exporting oil we produce in Alaska (or anywhere) to other countries. Barring market tampering, the only reason we would do so is if another nation outbids domestic use. If we buy oil from Saudi Arabia and get it here for our use @ 120/bbl, and Russia (closer proximity to AK) will pay us $140/bbl for AK oil, and it costs us $10/bbl in transit to move Saudi oil to AK, we're ahead by $10/bbl. If Russia only offered $129/bbl, we wouldn't sell them a drop.
Poo-hoo my theories all you want, but pretend for a moment you're a player on eBay for Beanie Babies. God help us all, but there's a global marketplace for that too. You would behave exactly as I just described.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
22 (
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Believing in the Bible
Posted: 4/30/2008 7:33:20 PM
If, while having a learned knowledge of certain scientific fields like archaeology/paleontology, etc., and I came across a book called the Bible, I believe after reading just a little I would be very intrigued especially when someone would inform me that book was formatted on writings that were over 1800 years old.
That's very odd.
If you read "just a little" from the beginning, God creates Adam and Eve. Then a few pages later there's no Eve, and God notices Adam is lonely. Toss aside two very different tales of events, and consider the rest of the bible. Creating Adam and Adam only is kind of a screw-up. If you are all-knowing, surely forgetting to give Adam a method to reproduce is puzzling.
Even odder:
You appear to assign merit of age; Ever see a car wreck? Notice how two eye-witnesses manage to give differing accounts on what really happened minutes apart? Multiply that by your 1,800 years. Does truth become fact from mere age?
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
141 (
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/28/2008 11:30:08 PM
This is one of the finest films ever made. Run, don't walk, to the nearest theater and take several friends with you.
That thud you just heard was my jaw dropping to the floor.
OK, let's cast aside ideology, beliefs, etc. and look at the movie as merely a documentary. Look at all those cut-ins interspersed throughout the film. How can you consider the cut-ins as anything but pure propaganda? Stein interviews a guy -- guy says "they fired me for my beliefs!" then you get a flash of a shadow image of a handcuffed man that looks for all the world being lead towards the gallows or the firing squad, with a priest in front reading the Last Rites.
Stein asks people like Dawkins a question, hears the answer, then you get a mini-cartoon depicting Dawkins a fool. A person tells Stein "I was only expressing my opinion" and the next cut-in is imagery similar to East German Stasi secret police pistol-whipping someone.
Where are the cut-ins for the people who don't agree with Stein? To best understand what I'm talking about, you need to watch the movie with the sound off. There, you will see when Stein talks, next you get positive emotional imagery. When the opposing view talks, next you get Nazi/Stasi/Gulag imagery. It's not always, but turn the audio off and it's blatantly clear the movie steers viewers to only one conclusion.
Stein's revisionism of the holocaust is purely revolting. This is a poor movie by any objective standards, regardless of subject matter.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
140 (
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:50:12 PM
On Darwin being a believer in ID...that's partly true, but a huge mischaracterization. As a younger man, he very much believed in ID, as spelled out in William Paley's
Natural Theology
. But he changed his mind a wee bit. :)
Painting Darwin as an ID believer is like saying Richard Dawkins is a "Santa-Clausian" because he once believed in Old Saint Nick.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
114 (
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/27/2008 9:01:07 PM
The creme de la creme in the scientific field and all strongly acknowledging an Intelligent Designer in one way, shape or form according to recorded statements or writings.
Wow, all those brains, and not one can refute the assertion that the Intelligent Designer of the universe is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
3 (
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Believing in the Bible
Posted: 4/26/2008 4:14:35 PM
I think most modern Christians view the bible much like they view Aesop's Fables. One can pick up on the moral point of those stories without believing in talking animals. Which is still odd because so much of the morals the bible teaches are pretty damned awful.
Christians I think rationalize a warm-and-fuzzy belief in the bible because they've been taught all their lives by parents and society that it's a true story. When they get older they pretty much know that the world doesn't operate the way the bible tells it, so they drop things like incest and slavery from their minds, and keep the Sunday school view of "Jesus was a nice guy."
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
46 (
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/22/2008 10:24:24 PM
I too, enjoyed Win Ben Stein's Money and assumed Stein was smart, or at least educated.
This movie is a stunner. The attempt to hang Nazism on Darwin's neck is mind-boggling. Stein's ignorance of history....oh my god.
Nazi theory I think can be fairly stated as having come from the church -- Lutheran and Catholic. Martin Luther (Heinrich Himmler was a fan) wrote in On the Jews and Their Lies (1543) things like (quoting wikipedia):
In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]
According to one historian, "just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther."
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
47 (
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Tell me not what you believe, but WHY
Posted: 1/15/2008 12:02:49 AM
Sorry, gotta tell you the WHAT, because without that context, the WHY makes no sense.
Raised (partially) Christian myself, been atheist most of my life. The "partial" is my dad, while a regular churchgoer for the music and social aspects, was a closet atheist. He never told us publicly, but given his interest in science it was fairly obvious.
After a certain age, the whole thing seemed preposterous. The typical American Christian knows exactly what that feels like, but in respect to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. A child figures out the impossibility of one guy with a flying reindeer-powered sled visiting billions of homes in one night....what, age 7 or so?
I think when I was perhaps 11 or 12 I'd figured the fantastic stories of the Bible just couldn't be true. But (like dad) I kept quiet about it, because even the kids who clued me into Santa Claus' non-existence believed in Jesus.
I became part of the ceremony at my parent's church. I was one of those children who wore a white robe and carried the cross or communion apparatus like the goblet. I was 13, and at that point I felt like this was all one mass delusion. That's a lonely feeling at that age -- all your friends and every adult authority figure buy into this loony story.
So -- WHY?
What we know know as FACT about the world around us pretty much eliminates most every religion. I had an "imaginary friend" when I was...hmm...8. I outgrew that, only to enter a world where adults (who should know better) still cling to their "imaginary friend" because...most everyone else's "imaginary friend" is the same person.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
102 (
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Often overlooked - Core Muscles
Posted: 1/11/2008 12:04:19 AM
Good grief, it's hard enough as it is to keep working out, then run across some snit on the internet who impugns your motives for "just doing it" - you're chasing vanity, shallow, or who knows what else.
The suggestion is, "what else" isn't anything perceived as a positive social trait...unless...your motives match Mr H2O's standards for purity.
Guess what, H2? The real world is made up of people who work out to appeal to the opposite sex (me...shallow me), people who make their living off their backs, fitness models, and Joe Average (again, me) who's spending a seemingly inordinate amount of time on goofy one-leg squats/lunges rather than abs. Did it ever occur to you that such a person may be training for a sport you may not even know of?
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
58 (
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why do people take the bible so literal?
Posted: 1/3/2008 11:37:45 PM
The Q'uran is based on the same teachings and the same God. It's more or less an "add-on" to the Bible, so it doesn't make for a very good comparison here.
OK, perhaps not the best comparison, but I was mostly thinking of his item #1 (and similarly repeated elsewhere) that boils down to "I know the Bible is true, because it says so in the Bible." The Holy Ghost thing is just a detour -- if I stated "I'm the King of Sweden, because the King of Sweden says I am" few would agree (even if I made up a Parliament to back up my claim).
As to an "add-on" of the Bible, I think not. At the core of Christianity there's the belief that Jesus was the son of God. The two books overlap some, but there's no mistaking the different directions. It's hard for me to picture a Christian who views Jesus as just another prophet in a line of prophets before the final one, or a Muslim that believes Jesus is the one true son of God. Same parent God, but a huge fork in belief I think impossible to reconcile.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
55 (
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why do people take the bible so literal?
Posted: 1/3/2008 3:32:50 PM
FIRST, on the ground of the testimony of Jesus Christ.
SECOND, on the ground of its fulfilled prophecies.
THIRD, on the ground of the unity of the book.
FOURTH, on the ground of the immeasurable superiority of the teachings of the Bible to those of any other and all other books.
FIFTH, on the ground of the history of the book, its victory over attack.
SIXTH, on the ground of the character of those who accept and of those who reject the book.
SEVENTH, on the ground of the influence of the book.
EIGHTH, on the ground of the inexhaustible depth of the book.
NINTH, on the ground of the fact that as we grow in knowledge and holiness we grow toward the Bible.
TENTH, on the ground of the direct testimony of the Holy Spirit.
The same ten claims could be easily be made for the Qur'an as well. The Qur'an goes even further in that the book itself is perfect, and couldn't have been created by a human.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
36 (
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Wow.. just wow... westboro does it again.
Posted: 12/30/2007 12:31:12 PM
Christ would have been going against everything he died for to have the messages of the OT unchanged.
OK....maybe "messages" is the wrong terminology. Let's look at what Jesus actually said in his Sermon On The Mount:
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I'll agree with you about us being more civilized, but it's easy to see where this comes from.....that awful book. God says a lot of things in the Bible, and doesn't mention homosexuality often. But when he does, it's never in a good way.
I don't worry about fringe nutjobs like Westboro, but I do worry about the scripture's influence on people non-fringe enough to run for US President, like Guliani. When asked about homosexuality, he says he can love the individual but despise the act. Where do you suppose a good Catholic boy like Rudy learned that? He can safely say things like that because it's pretty close to mainstream Christian attitudes in America today. Look at Huckabee, another Pres candidate whose beliefs about gays in the military and gay marriage aren't all that far from Fred Phelps's.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
42 (
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why do people take the bible so literal?
Posted: 12/30/2007 2:10:39 AM
It's the nature of the book itself.
The Bible makes a lot of specific claims to be the One True Word of the One True God. It's context is set up so either it's God's word, or it's not. Aesop's Fables convey much wisdom and have lessons valid for getting along with people, but you don't see every few pages admonishing you that you must believe in talking animals, or die. The Bible does.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
31 (
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Wow.. just wow... westboro does it again.
Posted: 12/30/2007 1:10:56 AM
Wow, you people are quick to assume I agree with Westboro. Of course I don't -- I'm an atheist.
I'm merely pointing out that the source of this hatred isn't some looney-tune maverick preacher. It comes directly from the Bible.
And this "Oh, that's just the OT" -- please. Jesus says in the NT that he didn't come here to change one single word of the old law, but to enforce it. Revelations says that the sexually immoral will be thrown in a fiery lake of burning sulfur.
I wish more people would actually *read* the Bible to see what it really says. You may think Phelps/Westboro's position is wrong morally, but theologically he's fairly in line with what God says about gays in the Bible.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
14 (
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Wow.. just wow... westboro does it again.
Posted: 12/27/2007 10:33:40 PM
Oh ye of little faith!
Condemn Westboro all you want, but the basis of this is right there in your Bible. Read Leviticus 20:13 in most any version (NIV here):
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
You say: "How could they think like this?"
I say: "Easy - their god spelled it out for them in plain language centuries ago."
You see, God really does hate fags. What part of "They must be put to death" do you fail to understand? Fred Phelps utters Biblical Truth more than most Xtian preachers will in public.
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
7 (
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The Money Bomb
Posted: 12/17/2007 11:35:01 PM
I gave this time around, but I think I missed the cutoff (had a busy Sunday). I hit 'submit' about 10:26pm Mountain time, which, if they are going by Eastern, I was too late to get my $ counted in the official Money Bomb. I bought a stylin' t-shirt too. :)
Alpina
Joined:
3/23/2006
Msg:
35 (
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Mitt Romney's Speech On Religion
Posted: 12/10/2007 12:40:24 AM
That speech makes it clear Romney has no empathy for a (growing) number of people that have no religious belief at all. He just
assumes
everyone in America goes to church on Sunday. He doesn't "get" those that don't, and he never will.
The gist: All that hot air was pandering to the Fundies and Religious Right.
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