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 Author Thread: Strangers on the net, exchanging details
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 2 (view)
 
Strangers on the net, exchanging details
Posted: 10/28/2009 8:33:19 AM

I honestly don't get why people will seek advice about their own current personal dating situations and current relationships from strangers on a public forum...

I've often wondered this myself. My personal favourites are when someone describes a very specific scenario, or comment made in response to a certain action, and then asks a bunch of strangers - half of whom are probably drunk or insane and the other half misunderstood the question anyway - what they should think or do in response to the situation they've described. hahahaaa
As if people who don't know either, or any, of the participants, who don't know the background, who don't know the intentions or motivation of anyone involved, can give useful advice or guidance.
When, as you say, the best person to ask is the other person involved in the situation, since they actually made the remark or took the action. Seems obvious really.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Ratio of men to women with degrees on POF 5:1 !!
Posted: 10/28/2009 8:12:06 AM

I'm sorry that my desire for an educated women seemed to annoy people. I just think that educated women have the same sort of career expectations as me, that they will be able to know what I'm talking about when I discuss philosophy, or politics... When I find that I have a nearly 1/5 chance from the outset to even get a response, I have become disheartened, and that's why I posted.

I don't think it's your desire for an educated women that's annoyed people. It's more likely it's the facile reasons you give for your choices and the superficial assumptions you make regarding your lack of success.
Probably compounded by an apparent inability to comprehend the responses you're getting to the topic. One naturally concludes your difficulty with responses, to emails on the dating side of the site and to this thread, are not necessarily caused by the respondents.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 41 (view)
 
poetry as foreplay
Posted: 10/26/2009 3:42:08 AM

...and Ive got no intention of falling in love with a guy.. still in love with his ex..

In one sense this is wise... yet I think a good argument can be made for not always loving wisely, but rather always, too well. In other words - passion!
Dipping ones toes is all very well, but sometimes just jumping right in is the way to go?
Get wet! While you can.

I don't think that someone might still be holding a candle for their ex is necessarily an obstacle either. Dishonesty about it definitely is, but many people still have fond memories for the past, one tends to forget the bad stuff and remember just the good? Like how good it felt to be loved, to feel secure, to have support etc
Nostalgia is nice, it's all dreamy and nothing ever goes wrong in nostalgia world, but it's just living in the past. Sometimes - assuming honesty from both parties - a dose of hot and sweaty True Love is just the ticket for dragging someone into the present.

Fear is more of an obstacle than memories.

^^^ I tried to tell the tale, in rhyme.
To alliteratively elucidate and literately reiterate.
But then I just thought, fuck that.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 27 (view)
 
What are your thoughts on friendship?
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:59:14 AM

Now if he just pops that in an email and sends it off I am sure all will be well; in one way or another.
That oughta do the trick alright. But there are no compliments in the suggested email? Compliments are good. Women love compliments, so I think he should say she has nice tits or something as well?
Just to be on the safe side.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 31 (view)
 
poetry as foreplay
Posted: 10/24/2009 7:23:45 PM
May I insert my contribution?

When we met, that you loved me too I could just hope!
But now I just think you're a dope.

I love your belly, your breasts! Your nose! Your mouth!
At least, I did before it all started going south.

My dear! Loving you was easy peasy, and we fit so well. Like nut and bolt, you were the one for me!
But pack your gear! You're sleazy, and you smell. Fuck off before I cut your throat and hang you on the xmas tree.
You no good sonofabitch.

I know you'll always love me! Because you're sweet and kind!
But you're outta your tree, and I think you've lost your mind.

Remember last summer? Our romance at the lake, taking out the punt?
What a bummer! With you it's all take, you goddam... sausage.

I thought my love for you would never end!
Sorry to tell you this, but now I'm poking your friend.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 8 (view)
 
What are your thoughts on friendship?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:56:48 AM

What would your thoughts be?

Maybe they've decided to go bowling, followed by some archery, finished off with a bit of rock climbing instead of just having dinner?
In that case she's obviously trying to spare you the embarrassment of not being able to participate in anything they do? Such a considerate girl! I'd write to her right away if I were you and propose marriage.

Or it could be that actually she's sick of you hanging around all the time and is glad your broke your collarbone because it gives her an excuse to mock you for your clumsiness to all her real friends and not invite you to her birthday party?
On the other hand... maybe she wants you to be forceful and manly and insist on coming along. So you'd best get right on it?

Unless she has shares in the cab company and she's trying to manoeuvre you into using taxis by subtly emphasising what a drag public transport is? Which is a very mercenary way to treat a friend, so I'd write to her immediately if I were you and tell her you won't be seeing her again and you never really liked her anyway.

Hope that helps.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 13 (view)
 
poetry as foreplay
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:13:25 AM
Poetry is an excellent way of kicking off an evening of romance!
Language is very erotic!
And when it's in rhyme, well... it spells a good time?
The parry and thrust of fine wits, while groping for the word that fits,
is an invitation to lust. To extravagantly show off, and flash your vocabulary.
The perfect word is like a coin in a slot, and round holes need round pegs?
So warmth spreading from your groin is natural, one expects open minds.
Perfect for any guy trying his luck. And hoping for a nice evening.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 11 (view)
 
Chatting internationally
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:27:35 AM

Sure. But my accounts were recently frozen through some silly bothersome bank error, temporary glitch I'm sure...
No shit! We must use the use the same bank, because the exact same thing happened to me!

So I will need your credit card number so I can buy a wedding dress.
Of course, I'll get right on it. But meanwhile, as a gesture of my good faith I'd be honoured if you'd let me sort out the problem with your bank.
Don't be alarmed though! I don't want your pin number or anything crazy like that, just send me your drivers licence and one of your old statements so I can establish your bona fides for you and solve the problem. You'd like me to help you wouldn't you?

This post courtesy of Secure Credit And Money Inc.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Chatting internationally
Posted: 10/19/2009 7:45:33 AM

It's people like you who just make it unnecessarily difficult for a hard-working Email Scammer to make a decent living.

shhh! (whispers) I'm only trying to trim the competition. As it is I'm having to send out 96 billion emails just to get a few responses...

Tell ya what though, setting up that fake global corporation and getting it listed in the international directories is really paying off!
Say... you're pretty cute... wanna get married in Vegas?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 6 (view)
 
Chatting internationally
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:50:40 AM

...who is apparently from USA but working in London in an oil company...

What a terrible situation to be in! It's just lucky, as an American living in London that he's got an Australian friend to help him out, because people who are in that particular unfortunate predicament invariably have personal disasters, necessitating immediate travel, fall on them at exactly the same time as their bank makes some terrible mistake with their accounts.

To reassure yourself, just tell him you need confirmation he is who he says he is? Ask him for the name of the company he works for and tell him you'll get the number off international directory so you can place a call via their switchboard and talk to him.

Come back and tell us how you get on hey?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Do You Want To Meet Me
Posted: 10/16/2009 9:32:07 PM

Now my sample of around 100 people, of whom less than 10% are attractive young females, is too small to be scientific....
Sure, but even being aware of the danger of extrapolating from a small sample it's still possible, as you note, to extract a worthwhile generalisation.

The reasons for it, the tendency in certain situations for women to be stand-offish, are potent and valid though so one must understand, and learn to deal with, the reality.
An attractive woman has market power. She may not feel it, or want it, but she will have seen its effect on other people. Who knows, she might be disgusted by the phenomenon or she might revel in it, but either way, if she's got any sense, she'll be aware of it.

I imagine a very wealthy man might have similar experiences and would likely tend to react to 'friendly' advances, depending on the situation, in a similar way.
Of course, a rich person has the option of revealing who/what they are, whereas a very beautiful woman does not. So it's probable a lifetimes experience has taught her to be cautious?
Additionally, and this is an awful truth, women have levels of fear regarding their personal safety that are incomprehensible to most men. Whether the fear is justified or the expression of it valid, is irrelevant. It's part of the reality, her reality, that men need to understand and learn to deal with appropriately.

I just tell massive lies, and that seems to work.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Got any good ideas for a theme party ?
Posted: 10/16/2009 7:41:45 PM
I like ~Kyn~'s suggestions too, because they would create a total 'experience', which not only helps to get a cohesive party vibe going but hopefully makes it memorable too.
The only drawback would be the running around to organise it, and the possible expense... which is two drawbacks I guess, unless you like running around and have loads of cash then there wouldn't be any downside at all!

The great thing about costume parties, and to a lesser extent theme parties, is the instant breakdown of inhibition factor. There's something about getting into costume that releases the inner performer so that people feel freer to not be themselves, but rather their more entertaining and nicer alter-ego, or perhaps a character based on the costume they're wearing. Who is also, quite often, a better class of guest than the actual person wearing it.

Perhaps with that in mind you could tailor the costume to create the atmosphere you desire? If people come as children it's likely to set off a different vibe to if they all came as characters from the movie Casablanca - because it was film noir, and there were really only two characters anyway. Might as well just tell everyone to come as Humphrey Bogart or Ingrid Bergman. Or maybe as 'Rick's Café' if you have any particularly large friends.

Pimps and Prostitutes is a bit passe, and might lead to scandal, though with some careful handling and the use of masks it could lead to a cash positive outcome for yourself. But who wants to be working on a Saturday night hey?

Have everyone come as clowns.
It's impossible to be serious when one is dressed as a clown. And there are two classic types of course, the 'auguste' clown with the big shoes, baggy trousers, and tight jacket or the 'whiteface' clown, who tends to be more sleekly dressed and boss the auguste clowns around.
Not forgetting their antecedents, the Pierrot clown (whiteface), Harlequin or Jester (auguste), and their descendants - the character clowns like Chaplin, the Marx brothers, and Laurel & Hardy. Who could provide an opportunity for your larger guests?

But for whom, I would endorse Naamah's suggestion of having everyone in bikinis... unless they were of the Brazilian thong variety? That'd be pretty funny.

Circus! Circus! That wouldn't preclude anyone from wearing a bikini if they wanted to, since there's always one at the circus? Set up 3 rings! Put up a marquee! Install a trapeze! Hire a lion!
Crack the whip RingMaster Freckle...
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 39 (view)
 
Culture in Australia. Is there any?
Posted: 10/16/2009 6:16:42 PM

How clever of you to discern, from my deceptively simple words, my utter brilliance.

Yes, yes it was.

Perhaps it could be said that the Information Highway - whilst, in so many ways, the www.cesspool.com of our culture - is also potentially one of the 'appropriate cultural spaces' in which cultural explosions may occur.

I think you're right. Which obviously confirms your utter brilliance and reinforces my cleverness in spotting it before you even started making sense.
I particularly liked your pithy re-characterisation, bearing in mind where we, and this forum, are, of the 'Information SuperHighway' as "www.cesspool.com".
No wonder I feel so at home!

Your wordshit the nail on the head.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 36 (view)
 
Culture in Australia. Is there any?
Posted: 10/16/2009 2:06:15 AM

Mostly, I'm concerned about the amount of people that are probably having sex right now.

As long as there aren't vast numbers currently having it with you, that might be a little worrying I suppose especially if some of them don't look familiar, but otherwise there's probably no need to be concerned.

Clever of you to have found the connection though!
Of course! Cultural content needs a venue, a place to play, somewhere to extend itself and, through that expression, enter the public consciousness.
Meanwhile, there are empty spaces all over town, just longing to be filled.

So it's just a matter of making the connection between culture, which is bursting out everywhere, and the appropriate cultural space. Because once the two come together... Boom! A cultural explosion! The climactic event! Ladiees & Gentlemen! No need to be concerned! Welcome to tonights entertainment.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 31 (view)
 
Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/13/2009 8:33:26 AM

All these questions that go to the administration of the public finances of one of the most fortunate countries in the world leave me cold.
Indeed, along with various other great chunks of your post, that's more or less what I meant when I said the departmental budgets were pretty much irrelevant. Because it actually doesn't matter.

These governments would then collect taxes and redistribute them to the least fortunate minority and some few people who exploit the system at a cost that is probable smaller than that of trying to stop them.

Well put, and again I was hinting at the same thing when I asked what the percentages were that are actually given to lazy people. The reference to stationary and printing I made was also hinting at the same thing.
A sense of proportion can be difficult to maintain in the face of such huge expenditures, but that's exactly what's needed to interpret the gross figures in any meaningful way.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 27 (view)
 
Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:12:01 AM
Edit to above ^^^
According to a paper from the budget policy division, (Treasury dept) the budget spend for 2007-08 is (Billions):
Social security and welfare $96.5 (41%)
Health $43 (18%)
Gen govt services $32.2 (14%)
Defence $19.9 (8%)
Education $17.8 (8%)
Infrastructure, tspt & energy 9.9 (4%)
Industry & workforce $10.4 (4%)
Community services and culture $6 (3%)

The Federal Government also gave the States around $50 billion in 2008, and they will have spent some of it on health, education, and infrastructure as well.
But none of it on Social Security, since that's solely a Federal responsibility.

The $96 billion spend on social welfare presumably includes all payments? Like staff costs.... and aged pension, disability support, carers, unemployment, sole parents etc etc so it would be interesting to see what percentage of the $96 billion is being payed to lazy people.
Half? A quarter? 10%? 1%? 0.1%?
I wonder how much they spend on stationary and printing?


Australia
GDP 2007 $908.8 billion.
GDP 2008 (estimate) $1.013 trillion

Australia is a developed country, with a prosperous multicultural society and has excellent results in many international comparisons of national performance such as health care, life expectancy, quality of life, human development, public education, economic freedom, and the protection of civil liberties and political rights. Australian cities routinely rank among the world's highest in terms of cultural offerings and quality of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia

Everyone knows the big spending departments are Social Welfare, Health, Education, and Defence - all the usual suspects in terms of election year rhetoric.
So I didn't search for departmental budgets because that seems irrelevant, they all spend what they need to according to government policy, and Australia continues to prosper.

I figure that given our economic circumstances, Australian citizens are entitled to expect that schools will be modern and well equipped, that teacher numbers will be sufficient, that schools will be appropriately located so that education is available to all.
It also seems reasonable to expect Federal and State governments to provide a decent and affordable health care system that can be accessed by everyone.
Likewise, we should have decent roads to drive on, and good public facilities generally. Not as a hoped for thing, or a favour the government does and might change it's mind about - but as an entitlement.
We are also entitled to protection by our armed forces.
Are we not also entitled to social support if/when assistance is required?

Australia is a wealthy country, we have a stable and non-corrupt system of government whose primary role is provide those things.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 12 (view)
 
What Women Want (Really)
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:17:45 AM
They want to travel in the future and they want to go dancing. To find out anything else, just ask.
But really, they probably want something fairly similar to what men want?
Like, they want to go fishing and 4wheel driving.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Sex....beautiful or ugly?
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:00:06 AM

Do the ugly people actually find other ugly people attractive or are they settling because they think they can't get any better? (^u^)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
why the prettier the woman, the worse she is in bed? (|) i seem to have my best orgasms with the ugly to average chix..... (~O~)

The saying about there being 'someone for everyone' is true. Though I'm not sure 'ugly' people are 'settling' for what they can get any more than anyone does?
Because it's an amazing thing that 'The One' so often seems to be at the same school as us, or the same workplace, knows someone that we know, or live in the same city.

So the plain person just found someone they could get to know, at their school, workplace, or in their neighbourhood etc... and as we get to know people their personality is the important thing.
Then having found 'The One', by the same method most people seem to use, physical appearance became less of an issue.

Still, there's the initial choices people make - even as children where the process probably begins - about who to pursue friendships with and who to get to know better.
The chess playing computer nerd guy won't meet the fat girl because he never goes to the canteen, he brings his lunch from home, and it's unlikely the fat girl will get to know athletic guys because their paths are less likely to cross.

But are the athletic guys missing out on something? Maybe the fat girl can go day and night for week without the need to eat much because of the stored energy reserves?
Maybe she's more willing to bend over backwards to be helpful? And forwards too.

Ideally, yes... But in reality the same issues probably cloud the consciousness of ugly, plain, and beautiful girls. There are many obstacles to sexual liberation, and these may appear more often in very very pretty girls but, in my experience, sexual inhibitions aren't massively correlated to physical appearance.
At least, comparing amongst and between quite incredibly beautiful women, stunningly attractive ones, and the ethereally mesmerising perfectly formed ones, because that's the limit of my experience.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 205 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:06:37 PM

Geez lyingcheat I can see you're on the attack once again.................lighten up and get a sense of humour or just leave me alone thanks!!!

Huh? Attack? Again? In your dreams maybe...
But as for the other 'point' - Absolutely! I really must get a sense of humour!

If you actually did a survey and asked other women (besides me) you would find they would tell you the same thing.

I did do a survey, and they all said exactly the opposite. Bad luck.

But hey for whatever reason you just love giving me a hard time so thanks very much................mf.
There's no need to thank me, because I never have. Oddly, it seems to be you calling me out by name, making negative judgements and assumptions about me, and generally maligning my character. And all while baselessly accusing me of doing those things.
Wow! If I had a sense of humour... I'd probably laugh.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 172 (view)
 
Are you a literacy snob?
Posted: 10/7/2009 8:34:27 AM

The character of Mr. Knox however is the one spark of hope in this dreary tale. Towards the end of the work he firmly rejects the meaning that Mr. Fox has tried to lock him into. He refuses to play his game of linguistic slippage...

Coincidentally, I'm not writing a paper on the post structuralist implications of Dr. Seuss!
It's quite a liberating position to be in, since it enables me to make wildly speculative assertions without regard for logic or truth.
For instance, I applaud the linguistic rigour of Mr.Knox in refusing to be bound by Mr.Fox and his distinctly unbound approach to language, but would argue that danger lurks in extending the point to a general principle.
Language, and meaning, are elastic. Linguistic slippage is surely a useful tool to explore that elasticity?

I also note Freudian connotations in Seuss' naming conventions. Seuss (actually Geisel) was of German descent which suggests the name 'Fox', or 'Fuchs', is an obscene analogue, and probably a metaphor for the role Mr.Fox plays in the story, vis-à-vis the relationship to language he tries to impose on poor Mr.Knox.
But Mr.Knox is resistant to being Foxed with, and is made of harder stuff, ie; he can take the knocks (knox), he's risen to his position as a character in this story via the 'School of Hard Knocks'. Which is itself a metaphor for the university of the street, basically - to be streetwise. So it's this canny faculty of commonsense that enables Mr.Knox to out fox Mr.Fox.
Ergo, bearing in mind the synonymous relationship linking the words 'rigour' and 'hard', these being descriptors of the outstanding qualities exemplified by Mr.Knox, Seuss seems to be echoing Mae West's famous aphorism - A hard man is good to find?

 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 54 (view)
 
How many profiles does a genuine POF member need, or should be allowed !!!
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:21:33 AM

And I am quite sure the posters concerned are far more, erm, blunt (no offence guys) than me in their writing style.
Gosh, who can you mean?

Those other multi-multi profile accusations were, ironically, made by someone that had 2 or 3 weren't they?
I heard of one, and this is surely the ultimate fake profile story, where someone was accused of fathering children using a fake profile. Not quite sure how you'd avoid the woman getting a good a look at you though?
Maybe hold up the fake photo in front of your face? Only meet in darkened rooms?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 199 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/7/2009 6:05:07 AM

Yes I did notice quite a few squirters in the sex forums here.....but they are alongside the women who also claim to love fisting, shagging for weeks on end and taking it up the butt "real hard". (etc etc)

'Alongside' but not necessarily the same people, and even if they exactly were it still makes no difference, since it makes no sense to dismiss all of someones point of view because one doesn't agree with part of it.
PETA has some fairly extreme views for example, that many people find hard to swallow, but they also have moderate positions on various issues that are a bit more palatable to the mainstream.
Would you disregard the moderate stuff because you can't get your head around the hard-core aspects?

im inclined to believe very little of what I read.....

Very wise, even seeing it a couple of times wouldn't be very convincing?
But seeing it a thousand times makes it impossible to ignore.

Vanilla is the most popular flavour, so obviously there are many people who are perfectly happy with it. Some, no doubt, exclusively.
But that doesn't mean the other flavours don't exist. They do.

Public Service Announcement: Squirters - You are normal. Don't allow prudish disapproval to spoil your fun!

Cheers! Sante! Hurraa! Skål! Prost! Salute! Bottoms up!
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 194 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/7/2009 4:41:55 AM


Female ejaculation (colloquially known as squirting or gushing) refers to the expulsion of noticeable amounts of clear fluid by human females from the paraurethral ducts through and around the urethra during or before orgasm
Yes....and the Loch Ness monster really exists too...........
Its called pee.

Tell that to the squirters...

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts9841654.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts11934523.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12641053.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12684836.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts9688551.aspx
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 183 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/6/2009 7:10:24 PM

...besides most guys don't know what the hell they're doing anyway..........

In your experience you mean?
It's worth pondering that the common denominator in 'your experiences' is you.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 171 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/5/2009 10:51:02 PM

...but all this debating has left me pretty worn out.

Energy levels low? Feeling somewhat depleted?
Maybe it's your protein intake? Are you getting enough?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 169 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 10/5/2009 9:17:36 PM

^^^ Very well said.

I agree. That was a mouthful and a half... the topic just got blown away, metaphorically speaking.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 34 (view)
 
How many profiles does a genuine POF member need, or should be allowed !!!
Posted: 10/5/2009 6:40:24 AM

Im going to get myself a pic holding a dead fish..

Sounds like a lot of wedding portraits I've seen.

You're right about the popularity of it though, one needn't look far to find an example. I was even going to try it myself but the shop only had fillets.
I already had some fish fingers at home though, so I figured I could just use those, but then I thought it might seem... well, a bit suggestive? So I just stuck with the photos I'm using of someone else.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 159 (view)
 
Elephants are pachyderms.
Posted: 10/3/2009 10:42:10 PM

I accidently let a fart slip out one night as my now ex was traveling down...total mistake
And terrible timing.
Nothing like a fart to quieten a good thread

Funny that... Maybe it was a bit like the 'Elephant in the Room' scenario? Except there wasn't an elephant in the room at all, just the stench as if one had been quite recently... and no one wanted to mention it.
( * ) )
| | | \
Butt, speaking of elephants... is oral a dealbreaker? pfft!

Whether sweetly spoken or energetically expressed, who doesn't enjoy a luscious descriptive passage? Like, totally dripping with meaning?
Or indeed, a long paragraph of throbbing purple prose?

Debate is more robust than conversation, no doubt.
I guess it's always wise to really get a feel for the objections to ones point of view? But after that... yeehaw! Just hammer the opposition hahahaa With a couple of heavily loaded ovoidly circular sentences forming an entirely rigid opinion... pound away at the main points, repeatedly drive home the advantage, and generally... overcome!

Mutual understanding may occur, but just as often one or the other is well and truly spent and left twitching on the floor.
But hey, no hard feelings, a good debater soon recovers and is ready to go again.

Conversation is slightly different to debate though? It's more subtle, it's about finesse, and cooperation.
Spreading out the argument, giving attention to each side, and examining the points of divergence, but of course exploring the middle ground that lies between. Because it's from there the bud of compromise will emerge and the opportunity to... progress? Will open.
Conversation is leading ones partner with hints, fine implications, and gentle nudges, so that both - ideally - reach the same conclusion and achieve joint insight, together. Like, si mul taneously!

Because much of the pleasure in persuasive discourse, conversation, debate, or any oral interchange, is timing?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 101 (view)
 
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 10/3/2009 8:52:30 PM

Check out this clip of Nora the piano playing cat:
Thanks for that.
A pussy tickling the ivories always makes for a good start to the day.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 5 (view)
 
New To Forum.
Posted: 10/3/2009 8:46:27 PM

Er , didn't you mean picking teeth with a burnished faggot ? Knowing your delight in all manner of wooden objects ..

It's true, I delight in wooden objects, I myself have a wooden head. But the other part?
No, not at all! I certainly wouldn't rub or polish a faggot, let alone use a shiny one to pick my teeth.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 3 (view)
 
New To Forum.
Posted: 10/3/2009 8:02:38 PM
I eat predators on toast for breakfast.
Flamed lightly and garnished with thinly sliced bigot.

Then pick the stringy bits out of my teeth using a pretentious braggart.
(How's that?)
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 98 (view)
 
Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 10/3/2009 12:48:15 AM

They could have and probably did sift through a hundred bird brain responses before airing the desired result.

It's difficult to edit reality though, and you seem to be forgetting that Alex the parrot could pull off these stunts live.
As he did many times, in front of hundreds of students and research assistants over the thirty years he spent living publicly at various universities, initially in Arizona, then later at Harvard and Brandeis.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 155 (view)
 
Are you a literacy snob?
Posted: 10/3/2009 12:31:50 AM

Wish me luck!
Bona fortuna!
Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur...

probably just need a good latin root
I was just saying this to Lult just the other day. I think we all juan one of these.
That's the genesis of a thousand threads right there... looking for juan, but finding casanova.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 143 (view)
 
Are you a literacy snob?
Posted: 10/2/2009 3:00:16 AM
Thanks Julian!
After trying the verses, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud.

I can see why the French guy had trouble of course, but on the other hand English has borrowed so many French words you'd think he would have found some quite familiar?
For instance...
enamour
chaise
corps
viscount
bouquet
chalice
joust
tour
mirage

I haven't even pulled all the French words out of that poem either... but just out of interest I stripped out all the words that look to be foreign in origin. I haven't researched or verified! I'm just going on appearance, so no one should rely on this for their thesis.

Some of these look to be ancient borrowings from Greek, Roman (Latin) and Norse (Scandanavian/Viking) and have been thoroughly anglicised, but others are obviously more recent.

diet, retain, plague, plaque, oven, receipt, devoid
Typhoid, measles, aisles, Exiles, similes,
Scholar, and cigar, Solar, mica, anemone
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel
Scene, ballet,
wallet, mallet, chalet.
Viscous, mould
pronunciation, croquet, clamour, enamour
rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
devour, clangour, aunt,
Font, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, Query, fury
bosom, transom, victual, zephyr, heifer.
senate and sedate;
Scenic, Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, ache, moustache, leopard, precise,
police, Camel, disciple, label.
canal, plait, chaos,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
succour, Psalm, malaria.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
alien, Dandelion, battalion.
ally, whey, aver, leisure, skein, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
preface, Phlegm, phlegmatic, target, gin,
scour, Hyphen, nephew
Monkey, cork, Psyche, paling, abyss, solace
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Add in tsunami and Japanese is represented, then perhaps throw in a volcano (from Latin - vulcanus) spewing lava (Hawiian - Pacific) onto the village (French) and burning (Norse/OE) up the houses (OE/Germanic) and it becomes clear, English is a very cosmopolitan (Greek - 'cosmos') language (O.French).
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 140 (view)
 
Are you a literacy snob?
Posted: 10/2/2009 1:21:49 AM

Oh God I am the only one on here that has read the whole thing aren’t I?

No.
Not at all. On the contrary.
I read it two times, that's twice, one less than thrice.
One was fun, so why not double? Go for a couple?
Right through too, two to the end complete.

Though I thought wriggle and writhe deserved a place?
Not to mention queue and cue.
And where were hue and hew? Or who?
Which brings up sew, and sow, and so on...
And others, like done and bone and gone.
Bright, height and bite too, all out of sight.

No sign of signature reign, rain or rein
Neither work nor jerk, or lurk either.
Testing testing...
Two is more fun than one!
But three is a deformity.

meh! English rulz!
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 66 (view)
 
Wheres your sense of Humour?
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:47:35 PM
I noticed a joke on another thread draw some heat and got to wondering about verboten topics for humour.
This was the joke -
I met a 14 year old girl on the internet. She was clever, funny, flirty and sexy, so I suggested we meet up.
She turned out to be an undercover detective.
How cool is that at her age?!

Personally I think the joke hinges on an age/occupation improbability, and is only marginally about my second favourite pastime... Ooops! I mean, only marginally about internet stalking and/or molesting young girls.

A friend said to me once that when she was a little girl she'd wanted to be a prison guard, and I said, I didn't think they employed little girls as prison guards, so I wasn't surprised her ambition came to nothing.

It's a very similar joke no? Is it ridiculing prison guards? Or little girls? Making fun of ambition?
None of the above, because it's not funny?
I can imagine a comedy skit - without too much difficulty - that would end with two detectives arriving at a shopping mall to arrest each other. It might even be amusing, but I'm not sure the humour is at the expense of vulnerable children so much as it is at the human condition, specifically in that a joke like that refers to the Keystone Cops.

I dunno... I think humour has special licence to go places that angels might fear to tread, and besides, there's always going to be someone who really does have a Peruvian midget lesbian aunty... who isn't amused, but is offended when you tell the one about the llama with the huge **** that gets ***** when it ****** by mistake!
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 2 (view)
 
How many profiles does a genuine POF member need, or should be allowed !!!
Posted: 9/30/2009 6:27:49 PM

From the site rules.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingposts141520.aspx

Registrations
All Items below are cause for instant Profile Deletion! No Warnings Given !!!

A) Do not enter any Weblink, URLs in any Form, ADDRESS', TELEPHONE Numbers, E-MAIL ADDRESS', INSTANT MESSENGER Numbers, ICQ Numbers etc. into your Profile for any Reason Whatsoever as this Type of Profile Data has caused too many Inquiries from the Authorities. Plentyoffish.com URLs & Links are permitted.

B) Do not upload or place any indecent, nude, racist, offensive, copyrighted or illegal Images or Material into your Profile.

C) Do not place any False Information or Illegal Material/Activities into your Profile.

D) Multiple Registrations are prohibited and are grounds for immediate Account/Profile Deletion.

E) Do not impersonate other Posters or falsely represent yourself.

There is a "Report this User" link at the bottom of every profile (you have to be logged in to see it), copy and paste the links to the multiple profiles and they're history.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 86 (view)
 
Men & Boys. Recklessly Stupid? Or Boldly Adventurous?
Posted: 9/30/2009 5:22:41 PM

But there's always testosterone and HGH supplements to fall back on.
I'll bear that in mind. But I'm not too anxious about my son...
I didn't mean supplements for him! I meant for you...


Well the reckless, stupidity of a.... 17 yr old unlicensed driver - took his Mum's car without permission /snip/ ...six in (the) car...
17 yr old driver - minor injuries - adventurous ? NO
Reckless and stupid - YES

No doubt about it, that qualifies. A series of reckless and stupid steps adding up to a reckless and stupid whole.
The driver will carry the bulk of the guilt, but no one forced the passengers into the car, so how much of the responsibility is his is probably debatable - though not in this thread. I'm sure there's a 'Teenage Drivers' thread revving hard somewhere, itching to be noticed.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 14 (view)
 
Culture in Australia. Is there any?
Posted: 9/29/2009 3:20:47 AM

Cultural identity is something that takes centuries to form, Australia just hasn’t been around long enough to develop a sharp distinction from its European back ground. Canada lacks that same identity… although you would never know it if you asked a Frenchman or an Aboriginal.

Indeed. It was remiss of me not to mention Aboriginal culture, which has a known history stretching back at least 40,000 years, and possibly double that.
Did I say culture endures? Too right maaaate! It just shows too, what starts to happen when a nation becomes separated from it's culture.
Culture is identity. Culture recalls ones roots. (<--- poss. sex link?)
However... being myself, of European descent, I'm not qualified to comment on indigenous culture.

But sticking with the 'culture endures' idea.... Mozart won't be forgotten just because he isn't writing music anymore and Da Vinci doesn't need to paint a Mona Lisa annually to stay well known.

On a local scale - Peter Allen's place in Australia's history is assured because, even though he wrote many hit songs including one that won an Academy Award, he also wrote 'Tenterfield Saddler' and 'I Still Call Australia Home', which sound, to me, like indigenous music.
Brett Whiteley won all three major art prizes in Australia in 1978, the only person ever to have done so, and his works now change hands with multi-million dollar price tags. One can be sure that if Australia still exists in 500 years time - Brett Whiteley's name will still be being spoken.

Yet who will remember Ian Thorpe, Wally Lewis, Dawn Fraser or that woman who won the equestrian thing at the Olympics... not to mention the guy who was Axe Champion last year.

How come we have an Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) offering scholarships and training but no Australian Painting Educational School or School of Performance, Education, and Writing?
Or an Arts Related Scholars e-Cademy...

Stalin's cultural conservatism is also infamous. Where Lenin (although not a particularly sharp tool and inherently brutal) was progressive in ideals, Stalin attempted to directly control the intellectual ideology of the USSR through restrictive measures relating to education and artistry. It was a crime to perform music by certain composers for example, as it may affect the political views of the audience. The crime was sedition, the same one the Australian Federal Government decided to legislate in the "current terrorist climate" and it amounts to little more than attempting to control expression and deny free thought.

The differing degree of anti-intellectualism ('intelligentsia' in Russian, has a negative connotation) between Lenin and Stalin is contextually relative. Stalin may have worn the jackboots but Lenin famously said - "(the) intelligentsia is not the 'brain of the nation', it is the 'feces of the nation'".

Writers and visual artists are often particularly targeted by repressive regimes, so it's interesting you mention sedition in the context of Australia. Of course, sedition in the Soviet Union could get you a one way ticket to Siberia, but the concept of exile isn't always so dramatic.
I imagine going to the Bledisloe Cup with a big sign saying Who Cares! would draw some social/cultural pressure to put the sign away, and you might even be called a traitor.
Sure, it's not quite the same as being executed, but social pressure can be a potent force.

Yet given the obvious value of enduring cultural achievements, one wonders why the antipathy? And hence my question about concert halls versus stadiums.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1 (view)
 
Culture in Australia. Is there any?
Posted: 9/28/2009 5:29:10 PM
I was reading about the history of the "Intelligentsia" in Central and Eastern Europe in the early part of last century the other day, which made me feel a bit of a fool, because there's absolutely no reason to do something like that...
But anyway, I found it interesting that repressive regimes of the past (eg; Central and Eastern Europe) tend to cull their intellectuals, as do similar regimes of today (eg; South America).
They do it of course, because the intellectual, artistic types inspire people to look beyond the ordinary, the mundane, and the everyday. Plus artists of all kinds ask, sometimes metaphorically, too many awkward questions...

So OK, it's not as if Eastern Europe is a cultural vacuum now because of it, but it does seem to have had an effect, particularly on artists and writers but less so on dance and music.

One of the great things about culture is that it endures.
What role do the 'arts' play in the cultural life (and/or history) of a nation? If any.
Is it right to have a sporting stadium in every town or would a concert hall serve the nation better?
Should there be a Tri-Nations dance championships rather than a rugby one? Would anyone be interested in watching the Symphonic Wallabies take on the All Black Puffers and Scratchers?
And what about sex? Can it be related in some way to this topic at all?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 80 (view)
 
Men & Boys. Recklessly Stupid? Or Boldly Adventurous?
Posted: 9/28/2009 5:14:51 PM

I wonder if the afternoon I spent playing 'gay hairdressers' with my son is going to have an adverse effect on his boldly adventurous manliness?
Hmmm.. is it too late now that he's 8, I wonder?

Depends on whose idea the game was? Yours, or his...
But there's always testosterone and HGH supplements to fall back on. A short course of those and you'll be throwing him in the air with ease.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 154 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:13:40 AM

Just thought I should post on the odd chance I may be banned before the day is out.

Odd chances are often the best so I'm not sure that's ^^^ one.
And no chance to get even for at least another page...

Just take a deep breath & hope for a good outcome?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 106 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/25/2009 7:37:06 PM

Gosh! I guess I must be a cop hater.
Actually, as I tried to point out, it was the sarcasm about the possibility of there ever being a good cop, and your inferences that anyone who thought so must be hopelessly naive, that particularly struck me as indicative of your attitude toward police. That, and your dismissal of 'anecdotal' evidence contrary to your opinion when you yourself are just posting totally fabricated stuff to provoke extreme reactions.

You keep saying this, but it isn't true.
I have been sarcastic about the difference between the reasons given for the introduction of tasers and the uses to which they are sometimes put by some police.
But I've acknowledged repeatedly, and even quoted myself when you made this allegation before, that the police service is a diverse organisation that contains dedicated individuals who are trying to make the world a better place for everyone in it - including the disadvantaged and vulnerable.

Nor is it true that I've "dismissed 'anecdotal' evidence contrary to (my) opinion". You made that allegation before also, and it still isn't true.
So you want earnest recollections and anecdotal experiences removed from the discussion...

This is what I actually said -
Likewise, it's all very well to talk from ones own experiences but they too are particular, and unique. They serve well to support an individual opinion but again, may have little relevance to a general discussion on the merits of a larger issue.
Nothing about removing anecdotes and recollections hey? Just that such things support individual opinions well, but that caution should be exercised extrapolating from the particular to the general.
Which is simply common sense, so it's odd that you take issue with it.

Obvious examples of the pitfalls abound.
If I meet 2 miserly Scotsmen, or 10 for that matter, what does this tell me about the saving habits of the Scottish population?
I am attacked and beaten by 3 shifty looking Bulgarians while 2 cunning Chinamen look on and don't help me. So now I know what Bulgarians and Chinese people are like?
I'm a petite and very pretty girl, I meet 10 policemen who are all wonderfully helpful and nice to me, therefore policeman are kind hearted.

See? I didn't say leave out the anecdotes, I just said they are unique experiences.


It is important to not be blind to the stories of abuse, corruption and vice amongst our cops. And if one is to take a balanced look at this issue then it is as important not be blind to the stories about cops demonstrating compassion, good judgement and helping people....you know, those ones you dismissed as being of not more value than -
something Mrs.Jones said over the back fence last week. Just after she said Elvis was piloting the UFO that crashed into the Pentagon....
LC You've certainly raised some food for thought in your posts, but for the most part it seems to me that you don't want to hear about the decent cops any more than you are claiming other posters don't want to hear about the unfair treatment of the homeless. Pot. Kettle. etc.

You've misrepresented what I actually said and missed the point. This is the full quote, and the parts I've bolded are significant to the meaning of the sentence.
Unless the opinions are formed from wider sources, exhaustive research and/or reading, historical perspectives and (flawed though they are) statistical analysis, then they may have no more significance than something Mrs.Jones said over the back fence last week.
Just after she said Elvis was piloting the UFO that crashed into the Pentagon....

You left the qualifiers, 'unless' and 'may', out of the sentence for some reason? Yet all I'm saying is that individual impressions may not represent truth, which isn't a particularly controversial thing to say.

Quoting selectively edited satirical remarks out of context, while ignoring numerous neutral and positive statements I've made about public safety and the police service would be an instance of 'dismissing evidence contrary to your own opinion' would it not?

Those things in your hand? They'd be straws.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 97 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/25/2009 9:46:24 AM

Interesting though, that when Noxious presented an extreme from the other side, where a police officer loses an arm.../snip/...and one accused the poster of having an overactive imagination... /snip/ ..... but the severed arm ... how the hell do you ignore the severed arm in that story? To me that response was the clincher that proves that some people will just always want to make the cop the bad guy, no matter what, even when a cop loses a limb for knocking on a door. /snip/ To read someone defend that particular attack on police leaves me with the realisation that some opinions are just not written with any degree of reasonableness, and yes, denotes a cop-hater. Fine...but at least admit it.

Gosh! I guess I must be a cop hater. Because the story sounds like an urban myth to me.
I'm just surprised the policeman's eye didn't pop out as well. And get gobbled up by a little dog who ran outside only to get run over by a car being driven by the policeman's long lost father who'd just come out of a coma and was on the way to the policeman's house to give him a pair of gloves for his birthday.

No citation, no credibility.

Else I'll counter it with a story about the psycho drug addict piece of shit who had baked some cookies for the local police, and picked some flowers for them too on his way down to the station. When he got there they shot him.

It's a crazy world... just shows ya, a psycho drug addict piece of shit just doesn't know what danger lies around every corner!

If anyone questions my heart wrenching story it obviously means they're mean spirited wooden hearted alien demons who lack compassion completely, which is fine.... but at least have the balls to admit it.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 91 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/24/2009 7:51:32 PM
This discussion has become very polarised.

It's easy to produce unique stories to graphically illustrate a particular point one wishes to make but they have little, if any, relevance to the general.
Likewise, it's all very well to talk from ones own experiences but they too are particular, and unique. They serve well to support an individual opinion but again, may have little relevance to a general discussion on the merits of a larger issue.
Unless the opinions are formed from wider sources, exhaustive research and/or reading, historical perspectives and (flawed though they are) statistical analysis, then they may have no more significance than something Mrs.Jones said over the back fence last week.
Just after she said Elvis was piloting the UFO that crashed into the Pentagon....

Way back in my very first post in this thread (post #37 - I was a late starter) I described the police service as like any other large organisation. It has some dedicated employees who are committed to the ideals and mission statement, some who are arseholes committed to their own agenda, and (probably the biggest group) a whole lot of people just trying to get along and do their job properly with the least fuss, and maybe effort, they can get away with.

I've also suggested, without ever saying police shouldn't have the equipment they need, or that they have no right to protect themselves, that more training might lead to better outcomes - for the police themselves through less need for blunt force solutions and their clients through potential harm reduction. I've mentioned community policing also as a successful model, where police and community work together and each gain support for their aims.
I've referred to the right everyone has to go about their business unmolested, and several times to the importance of maintaining order and public safety.
I haven't said anywhere that police should be disarmed and forced to take their chances, nor advocated anywhere that police generally are corrupt and deserve every beating they get.

Yet I've had to defend myself against being portrayed as a cop hater? Huh?

Presumably because I'm not blind to the fact of police corruption and historical abuses, and have dared to mention them.
Combined with that I've also defended the right of the disadvantaged and marginalised to go about their business unmolested, just like everyone else.

Yet somehow I seem to be on the side of the ****s who care nothing for decency?
As if insisting that police should respect the law as well is somehow disloyal to the concept of 'law and order'.

S t r a n g e . . .

Meanwhile the law abiding decent folk who actually do respect the law and support our police, advocate tasering and even killing of mentally ill people - describing them variously as a "waste of tax dollars", and "some maniac".
While referring variously to other people who've brought themselves to the attention of police, as "pieces of sh!t" , "piece of rubbish on the street" , and "scum".
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 150 (view)
 
Oral...is it a dealbreaker?
Posted: 9/24/2009 4:46:42 AM

all the sterilisation involved in sex... well.
its hardly worth the effort..

I know what ya mean. The damn gown gets in the way and the face shield is a nuisance.
But the Nitrous is a hoot and the bed is electric! Best of all though is the endoscope thing with the light on the end of it.

Wow! I never used to watch much TV, but now... interactive entertainment is the way to go!

I am looking for a 40 year old virgin...with no teeth..
Really?... (thinks...)


...gotta love home surgery and all the risks...
What a coincidence! That's exactly what I muttered to myself, through clenched gums, this evening as I completed a... ahhh... a certain cosmetic procedure.

Tomorrow I'll return 'Home Dentistry for Beginners' to the library and pick up part 2 of the esoteric masterpiece 'How to Breathe Through Your Ears - Or, Failing That, Die Quietly'.
After that I'm set! With my incredibly long tongue, no teeth, and wheezing through my ears no girl will be able to resist my suavely mumbled invitations...
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 76 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/23/2009 10:07:57 PM
A strange, unearthly calm settled over the thread... until, suddenly, lyingcheat said... Pain avoidance as a crime reduction strategy?
Last year a young friend of ours who is QLD police was already using them. She had an interesting story that I haven't seen others mention yet...She noticed a guy known as a constant trouble maker when patrolling one day and called him over. She asked what he'd been up to as she hadn't seen or heard any reports of him being in trouble. His answer was "I got tazered once. I'm not going to let that happen again, it hurts.".

One might expect the more painful, the greater the deterrent? Caning and lashes must really work!
mmm... Yet even the death penalty has no effect as far as reducing crime goes, and I assume being electrocuted stings a bit.
Of course, the deceased person won't reoffend, so I guess it does work quite well on an individual case by case basis.

But for this "pain avoidance" method of crime reduction to be effective then, we obviously can't rely just on the imagination of potential criminals, because any fool can imagine being executed won't be fun, and we already know the death penalty deterrent has no effect.

Therefore the potential crim has to experience the deterrent first hand to be deterred by it... Which rules out execution I suppose.
Aha! If we expect tasers to reduce crime, we'll have to pre-emptively taser people!
TaserTours of high density working class suburbs perhaps? Just zap the kiddies to blast them onto the straight and narrow?

Or Police RTB vans!
Roadside Random Taser Blasting in low socio-economic neighbourhoods.
"Just pull over here sir...", zz zzZZZzz zzzzzZZZZZZZzz zzzzz!
"Ouch!.... Gosh! I feel a sudden determination to go straight! Thank you officer!"
"Don't mention it sir, (chuckle) just doing my job", said the hearty red faced friendly wise old policeman.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 73 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/23/2009 6:58:24 PM

What, did you read somewhere where I said I think cops are perfect and beyond reproach and incapable of making mistakes? I am not trying to take an extreme position here...was merely objecting to the whole portrayal of cops as inherently evil and the general public as inherently innocent.
I don't think you've said the police are perfect. But then I don't think I've said, or implied, that "cops (are) inherently evil and the general public (are) inherently innocent."
Rather I'm saying that unwavering support and a refusal to question invites abuse.


It's well documented that one of the major occupational stressors is a lack of training. That is, the feeling that one does not have the right set of tools, in the widest sense, to complete the task thats been assigned.
Is this well documented in regards to the police force specifically, or are you talking in general terms?
In general, but only in the sense that this is a major stressor across all occupations. "The right set of tools", in this context, can include the intelligence of the operator.
I'm not a psychologist or a WHS expert and the definitions are both wide, and specific, and can be subtle.
The simplest definition I can think of is the feeling of being constantly on ones first day in the job, not knowing how, where, or who, with a sense of impending doom as, first ones failure to perform, and then secondly cope with the failure, will sooner or later be exposed.

It can be subtle too, in the sense that it's not necessarily sufficient to provide equipment or methods. For instance, if a personal assistant is overwhelmed by correspondence it may not be sufficient to get them a newer Remington Manual TypeDeluxe and tell them to just type faster.

Similarly an RSPCA employee, distressed at the animal cruelty cases he or she may have to contend with is unlikely to be helped by the provision of a blindfold and earplugs.

Likewise, the point I was making with regard to the Police Service, as an organization, is that workplace stress related to the feeling that they aren't coping with rising crime rates and increasingly dangerous criminals may not necessarily be ameliorated by giving them another weapon.
In some instances it may exacerbate the problem, since not every individual is comfortable with the idea of inflicting harm on other human beings.

Workplace stress can be reduced though through training. Not only in how to use the weapon effectively but also in the use of other strategies to reduce harm, manage behaviour (their own and others), and still reach 'successful' conclusions (with'success' being defined by the situation).


I don't feel bland acceptance about innocent people being tazered, at all. But in order to make it seem as if I do, you are holding your interpretation of those stats up as an absolute truth as if those people were innocently walking by and got tazered, thus creating a strawman argument of your own much like you described the police had done in your earlier post.

Not at all. I prefaced my remarks about those statistics with a laughing satirical disclaimer - "Dontcha just love statistics? hahahaa".
I also said, for example - "However, it's impossible to tell what blend of "minor offence punished by a good stern tasering" versus "no offence at all" is concealed within that 20% statistic.". Which was also intended (again satirically) to mean that interpreting statistics is not an exact science.
And "These figures, naked and fairly uninformative as they are, could be interpreted as suggesting... "
So rather than "holding your (my) interpretation of those stats up as an absolute truth", I felt I was presenting an alternative interpretation to the one you provided earlier, while also undermining the idea that statistics reveal much about individual cases.

Actually, I think we broadly agree.
I've said many times in this thread that police should be given the "right" and the "best" tools for the job. I've also not said, anywhere in the thread, that police shouldn't have access to tasers.

My argument is with ignorant enthusiasm for the erosion of everybody's right to move about unmolested, including disadvantaged, or mentally ill, or indigenous people. Who are bound to feature (who dares deny it?) in the starring roles when 'Taser - The Movie' hits the streets.
It's the same entitlement middle class people have to not be molested in their own homes or attacked by thugs on the way to the shops.

And likewise, you've said -
I don't feel bland acceptance about innocent people being tazered...
I was not blandly accepting of the situation shown in the video the OP linked to, nor about tazering people who are handcuffed, and nor am I about general misuse. I've said that the potential for misuse concerns me as much as the next person.
Which are the things I'm arguing against, so to the extent we agree about those things, I'm not arguing with you.
I must confess, I didn't even watch the video referred to in the OP, so you're better informed than me in that regard.
But I don't share your confidence that "misuse concerns.... the next person" as much as it does you or I.
The thread is full of disparaging references to the people that get tasered, I listed some of them earlier ^^^, and blank statements to the effect that "they probably deserved it" or "only themselves to blame", and "they were asking for it/had it coming".
This is despite that we often know nothing about these people other than the fact that they got tasered. So the implication is that being tasered is an indication of guilt on the part of the tasee, and righteous action on the part of the taserer. IMHO, it's a dangerous attitude, and that's what I'm arguing against.
The "naked and fairly uninformative" (to quote myself) Canadian statistics do seem to show that some number of people, possibly quite a large number, who have only done something relatively minor, or nothing wrong... get tasered.
And some of them are old, some are young, some don't speak English, and most of them don't have weapons.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/23/2009 10:44:38 AM

...you yourself seem to think we should all perhaps be more considerably concerned with the fear of being tazered.
Not "we" and not "all".
I really doubt that middle class people are in much danger. "We" are not the enemy at the gates.

But it all comes back to what it is you are defining as 'better trained' and whether that is feasible in terms of cost, time, and the numbers of police it can produce. Will offenders grant a 10 year amnesty on crime while we get the cops trained up? Anyway, I am sure they do actually receive training in how to handle people and situations....but training...I think about some of the people I train who get out there in the real world and are confronted with a pressure situation and all their training goes out the window, and they aren't dealing with life and death situations. Occasionally, in an unguarded moment, I even catch myself doing what I train other people not to do. It's not foolproof. And if it's all the cops are armed with then it is going to increase the risks of doing their job, and therefore the stress throughout the police service.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? You seem to be saying that training (the police, giving them better skills and improving their people management abilities) is (somewhat) a waste of time because training goes out the window in stressful situations.
If that's the case though, it seems pretty dangerous giving them weapons training... and then a weapon.
It's unlikely an amnesty would be needed, many people cope with on the job training and some, in other industries, even manage to study and work at the same time. I assume some police might manage the feat?
As far as police entering dangerous situations with only their people skills to rely on, and that possibly contributing to high levels of stress, rather than alleviating it. I don't agree. It's well documented that one of the major occupational stressors is a lack of training. That is, the feeling that one does not have the right set of tools, in the widest sense, to complete the task thats been assigned. And tools, in this context, may include weapons but surely must also include people skills - the police are part of the public service and they deal constantly with members of the public.

If we assume that the memory of inflicting harm on another human being, whether justified or not, weighs heavily on an individual police persons conscience, then it's incumbent on us, who fund the public service, to try and avoid that unfortunate consequence falling on our employees.
That means giving the police the best tools for the job. Which may, in some situations, be the skill to talk down a situation, or patience to wait it out.

The best tools may, or may not, be the easiest. Or the cheapest.

Will the situation in Australia be that much different?
Nah, we'll still indulge in lots of hearty cop-bashing.
And bland acceptance that around 70% of people tasered have not committed any significant offence, neither prior nor subsequent to being tasered, and an approximate additional 20% may not have done anything wrong at all. Even subsequent to being tasered, which indicates remarkable self control I think.
I guess the situation in Australia won't be much different with regard to the erosion of civil liberties and the right to proceed about ones business without being unfairly interfered with either.
Well, at least as far as any of that guff still applies to the marginalised groups who, one expects, will tend to appear regularly on the exciting end of the taser wires.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 67 (view)
 
Tasers - should they be allowed?
Posted: 9/23/2009 7:33:20 AM

LC, I got the impression from your post that you think that perhaps we are considering this topic from a foundation of misconception... about the degree of risks we are actually exposed to (that our fear of violent attack is perhaps exaggerated/manipulated by police/media/government) and that as a result of unrealistic fears, we've oversimplified this to a gun versus tazer discussion.
Yes and no. Because the degree of risk (speaking in gross averages) any individual is exposed to, with regard to being violently attacked, is very low.
So if there is a misconception, it's that society is 'unsafe' and that police are fighting a losing battle against increasingly ruthless, and/or unhinged, crooks.
Because it isn't, and they aren't.

You seem to scorn the idea of making things easier for the police?
Not at all. I was exploring the definition of "easier" in the context of maintaining public order and safety.
For instance, as I said, it could be considered "easier" to just shoot alleged offenders since that keeps incidents short, thereby freeing up police resources and negating the need for costly trials.
I didn't mention it, but some may argue that eliminating mandatory sentencing at the judicial level can sometimes make policing "easier", because, in some categories of offence, the alleged offender knows he or she doesn't have anything to lose by escalating things or taking bigger risks.
I also postulated that a better trained police force might make the job of policing "easier", not only in producing better outcomes with less harm - including less harm done to police who are forced to make difficult decisions in stressful situations, and who sometimes choose wrong, but also in general stress levels throughout the police service which are reflected in high levels of marital breakdown, early career burnout, problems with alcoholism etc etc.

It was just a tragic mistake, another one, and we extend our deepest sympathies to the unarmed drug crazed nutters family for their unfortunate loss.
I'd rather nobody die...but if it comes down to it, I'd rather that than extending our deepest sympathies to the psychology degree carrying cop who tried to reason with an unarmed drug crazed nutter as he strangled him with a garden hose or something.
Plus we extend some to the trigger man who's a bit upset by the whole thing.
Yeah, you're right to belittle the trigger man. What emotion could s/he possibly feel after having used a tazer to stop an offender, thinking it would merely stop the person in their tracks only to have them fall down dead. Be water off a ducks back, hey.

My reference to the "trigger man" and the faint sympathy that implies was intentional.
I was just trying to balance the rhetorical descriptions of the people on the other end of the taser wires.
A sample -
pieces of sh!t
sh!tbags of the highest order
one less piece of rubbish on the street
treating criminals like the scum they are
some maniac
human scum of the earth
one less waste of my tax dollars
criminally dangerous

Bearing in mind that, in most instances, we know nothing about them other than that they've been tasered. The ba$tard$.

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Here are a few stats from a Canadian.
26 taser deaths In Canada since 2001.
In 22 of those incidences, the victims were completely unarmed.
In 10 of those incidences, the victims were already in handcuffs.

Police across Canada fire their tasers about 1100 times per year, less than 10% of those individuals are charged with anything more than a minor misdemeanor, 20% are not charged at all.

Dontcha just love statistics? hahahaa

It's unfortunate that 26 people died, particularly when 85% of them weren't armed.
One wonders if the fact that tasers are supposed to be non-lethal (ie; the deaths were unintentional) allows us to feel a bit more comfortable with these figures. In contrast, I really doubt the public would remain silent if 85% of the people police shot and killed, using their guns, were unarmed.

Because it would look a lot like shooting fish in a barrel.

Even more alarming, seeing that 22 of the 26 were unarmed and that 10 of the 26 were handcuffed at the time of death, is the implication that up to 10, and at least 6, of the deceased were both handcuffed and unarmed.
Once again, imagine the newspaper headlines if the police had shot and killed 6 to 10 unarmed, handcuffed people.
Even if they'd shot them first and handcuffed them later, rather than the other way round, it still wouldn't look good.

Dramatic though those figures are, the non-fatal instances don't paint a rosy picture either.
20% of the lucky jump-start recipients were never charged with anything! At all.
Which could mean, as another poster suggested, the tasering was seen as sufficient punishment (for some minor offence) at the time and no further action was taken. Or it might mean that, not only had 20% of the tasered done nothing wrong, but they also didn't react adversly ie; aggressively, toward the police person who tasered them. Otherwise they'd be in a different statistical section. The handcuffed unarmed people who died perhaps? At the very least, they'd be in the group charged with something.

However, it's impossible to tell what blend of "minor offence punished by a good stern tasering" versus "no offence at all" is concealed within that 20% statistic.

OK, so looking at those percentages as 'numbers of people/tasering incidents'.
Of the (approx.)1100 people tasered -
110 are charged with something serious,
220 are not charged with anything at all,
767 are charged with a minor offence,
3 people die.

Assuming using a taser was justified in the arrest of every one of those 110 people charged with a serious offence (only 10% of the total!) that still leaves a lot of people being tasered for, apparently, not much reason. And quite a few for no known reason at all, since it appears they had committed no offence.
The 767 that, subsequent to being tasered, were charged with misdemeanors would undoubtedly include quite a few who had done nothing wrong, up to the point they got tasered at least, other than be in the wrong place at the wrong time, ie; the same location as police armed with tasers, and who were merely uncooperative in some way, ie: they wouldn't empty their pockets just because a police person told them to, they objected to being stopped and searched for 10th time that week, they wouldn't 'move along' (perhaps having nowhere to 'move along' to), they saw no reason to 'get down off that wall, right now', or perhaps they objected to having their bag snatched out of their hands and tried to wrestle it back.
ZAP! Take that, alleged offender.
Which might tend to annoy someone who felt they were doing, and who may actually have been doing, nothing wrong?
Inciting them perhaps to attempt some payback?

Aha! Gotcha!
You filthy no good actual offender, who is undeserving of the normal civil protections that everyone else enjoys, you...

These figures, naked and fairly uninformative as they are, could be interpreted as suggesting that tasers are used quite a lot as a 'Public Order' weapon, ie "Don't talk back or it'll go badly for you".
And, lo and behold! It does go badly for 990 people per annum who haven't done anything seriously, or perhaps anything at all, wrong..

These ^^^ are Canadian statistics, so it appears that not only do the Mounties always get their man, they get 9.9 extra ones too.

Will the situation in Australia be that much different?
 
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