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pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 24 (view)

Has your upbringing played a negative role in Posted: 5/13/2006 3:56:55 PM
Sure, but it has for everybody. For one thing, I don't so much see it as my folk's fault. They did their best with what they knew at the time. I frankly feel we are all let down by our culture...It hasn't had the courage to acknowledge human reality so far as sex and relationships go. For instance, it has built into us expectations of permanence that most often just can't be met by real humans, and therefore has caused alot of unecessary suffering. What is more, we are even still not able to face the issue squarely and honestly. I see evidence of that in every forum or profile I see on this thing. So yep, we're all screwed up. That said, whatever our upbringing did or didn't do, it was functional enough to get us here...I don't mean POF, I mean wherever we are in life....

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 5 (view)

Player or S!\|_\|T? Posted: 5/12/2006 2:52:48 PM
Well, welcome to American society. To do sex is OK for me, but not for thee. It ain't fair. Maybe a way to make these little sexual slurs go away is to personally delete them from our own vocabularies, and shy away from folks that have not deleted them from theirs. Just a thought.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 4 (view)

Player or S!\|_\|T? Posted: 5/12/2006 2:51:08 PM
Well, welcome to American society. To do sex is OK for me, but not for thee. It ain't fair. Maybe a way to make these little sexual slurs go away is to personally delete them from our own vocabularies, and shy away from folks that have not deleted them from theirs. Just a thought.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 22 (view)

Unconditional love?? Posted: 5/11/2006 9:14:48 AM
hi guys... You ever read Albert Ellis? He is a rational-emotive-behavioral (REBT) in NYC-Publishes a lot of books that touch on the topic of unconditional love. This is my interpretation, but he seems to to say that unconditional love involves loving someone in a way you will never withdraw, no matter what happens. He makes an interesting distinction, though. Giving unconditional love does not mean that you are obligated to stay with the person or even spend lots of time with them. So if you figured that they were bad for you, you can ethically limit/eliminate your contact with them. Gets you out of some problems of unconditionally loving a jerk.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 159 (view)

Polyamory - long Posted: 5/10/2006 12:46:02 PM
Delytful, It seems like you are not making a distinction between polyamory and polygamy as practiced by fundamentalist Mormons. The things you are talking about with kicking male kids out, statutory rape, incest ARE associated with that stripe of polygamy. I don't even know how widespread these abuses are amongst polygamists, but my perception is that they are frequent enough to cast suspicion on the Mormon flavor of polygamy. Personally, I think any institution/practice exploitive of individual human beings is not acceptable. Likewise, coercion of human beings (male or female) is not acceptable. From this perspective, you are right, Mormon-style polygamy would seem to fail the "smell test". However, these sort of undesirable things can figure into any number of human institutions (including monogamous marriage). Still, as a man, I can't rationalize why the penis-equipped in particular need a harem of adoring babes. My perception is that regardless of the religious rationales offered, the motives for polygamy as it exists in Utah are base and disingenuous, having more to do with a pathological desire for power than genuine affection for others. But that is just how it looks to me. My limited read of the polyamory literature suggests that the pressures driving polyamory are quite different. They include the reality that we live so much longer than we did even two generations ago so that deficiencies in relationships are more likely to manifest now than then and are more likely to cause serious difficulties for participants. We also know more about the universe than we ever have before. We now know that most (actually, all) religious teaching is deeply flawed and could not have had a divine origin. We also know that our closest primate relatives are moderately "polyamorous"...Suggests that might be closer to our natural state than monogamy. Thus the situation on the ground is different than anytime in human history. We can choose to hope that existing institutions can accomodate the changes in medical technology, human knowledge, demographics, etc. that are bearing down on the early 21st century. So far as I can see, there is little to support that view and alot to suggest it may not be realistic. Polyamory represents one possible response to some of these trends that may or may not become prevalent. If it does, it will because it serves the people involved. However, there is no Big Kabluna out there to dictate the rules to us: we gotta figure them out for ourselves. Part of that will be considering other models than those the ancient sages handed down to us. Chances are good those guys didn't know any more than us. David, thanks for getting the facts straight.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 4 (view)

What does monogamous marriage do to/for us? Posted: 5/9/2006 4:02:06 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I thought I had started a thread DOA. I don't know the answers to these things either... But... I think the institution evolved when we did not live so long or so healthy. I think in the next 50 years we will kick lifespan to close to theoretical maximum (estimated to be 125-150 yrs). How many 125 year marriages will we see? Not many, I bet... The problem is hard-wired into our genes. It won't go away, regardless of the moral trappings we attach to it... Things are about to change significantly in our lifetimes because of medical technology. We are whistling past the graveyard...A change is gonna come...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 155 (view)

Polyamory Posted: 5/9/2006 2:53:05 PM
I think that guy is on the most wanted list for bigamy, conspiracy, mail fraud and weapons charges. Not the same thing as polyamory, to my knowledge. I could be wrong... Why the energy Delytful? Nobody can draft you into a polyamorous relationship against your will.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 97 (view)

Sex every night....good thing, right? Posted: 5/9/2006 2:49:53 PM
Wow Don'tbenarrow So thats what they make those fuzzy pipecleaners for... I would think the wire is problematic....

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 83 (view)

Sex every night....good thing, right? Posted: 5/8/2006 12:08:04 PM
I looked at your original message to me after I specified 1-2X/mo... I don't think I can match your passion... For one thing, I don't think I would look good in a teddy...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 79 (view)

Sex every night....good thing, right? Posted: 5/8/2006 7:15:19 AM
ctrydancer STOP before it is too late... The sex life you save may be your own.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 23 (view)

signs a guy is interested? Posted: 5/7/2006 6:04:00 PM
he wants to know everything you think & why. he keeps hanging around. he wants to just spend time w/you.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 119 (view)

what does it take to not cheat Posted: 5/7/2006 5:23:34 PM
What do you guys say to someone who says "Dear, my needs are not fully met by you. I could not foresee this when we got started cos I was young and without experience. I love you but you are not the sum of what I can love. There are parts of me you don't speak to." Seems honest, but not what we are trained to expect or accept... Still, what do you guys think will happen when a person ends up in that position? Suck it in and suffer so their partners do not have to deal with any harsh reality? Don't talk to them and pursue the assignations as needed? I've encountered people in each camp. Neither one seems like a good idea to me. Do you guys really mean to be suggesting trying to make it to the grave with a hole in their hearts? Seems pointless and anti-human to me.

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 71 (view)

Sex every night....good thing, right? Posted: 5/7/2006 5:07:24 PM
CTRYDANCER I didn't say it was a good thing, thats just how it is. Being honest. Either we're really pathological or people may not be being entirely frank...Or both. If we are pathological, so are a lot of people in our cohort... Here's a fun correlation...Did you know frequency of sex is inversely related to highest level of educational achievment? Makes me want to turn in my doctorate. They don't tell you this when you start grad school.... Maybe I should warn my students...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 114 (view)

what does it take to not cheat Posted: 5/7/2006 4:50:20 PM
Boy, you guys are naive...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 110 (view)

what does it take for you... Posted: 5/7/2006 3:28:08 PM
To all you guys who are suggesting fidelity (not same as not cheating, but best verbiage I know of) is a matter of character, have any of you been in relationships for 20+ years? I think time in relationship has something to do with it as well. If you don't think so, wait it out and do the experiment yourselves... It can be surprising what time lets you come to think...Never (as in I would never, my spouse would never...) comes faster than you expect. Lotsa things happen with time...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 64 (view)

Sex every night....good thing, right? Posted: 5/7/2006 1:14:57 PM
Auntie-up seems like she is bringing some reality to the discussion. At least, I hope you guys are exaggerating. For us after 20 yrs married we're down to twice a month, if we're lucky. Us middle-aged types have careers, kids, sometimes medical limitations and we're almost ALL exhausted. We been there, done that, at least with each other. In our 20's we couldn't stay off of each other. We used to get very little sleep....I can't tell whether this undesirable change is just age or just age of the relationship. However, it happens to alot of us...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 12 (view)

Why don't tall men choose to date tall women? Posted: 5/6/2006 2:57:28 PM
Hey tortured. Do not despair. I am 6ft tall as is my wife. Hence, productive tall-tall dating occurs. On the bright side, the top of short guys heads may offer a convenient place to set down your pint... Just a thought. Puk

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 1 (view)

What does monogamous marriage do to/for us? Posted: 5/6/2006 2:51:39 PM
Hi. I'm new to POF...I am primarily here to sort out my thoughts on relationshps, monogamy, etc. I would like to get an open discussion going of where we think the institution came from, why it arose, whether all the reasons for its creation remain valid today, what does it do to/for us (good and bad), does it serve our interests for a lifetime, and does the legnthening human lifespan change any of this stuff? I have opinions on these matters that are as firm as luekwarm jello. It will help me process to see what others think. Thanks Puk

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 151 (view)

Polyamory Posted: 5/4/2006 10:15:07 AM
Just a comment on a probably dead thread. Having read the whole thing, I am struck by the undercurrent that assumes people are property (my man, my woman, I can't share, etc.). Humans are unequivocally not possessions. Here in the states, we fought a bloody, fratricidal war around the issue, but that is a digression. Also, I am saddened to see how strongly the cruel Judeo-Christian ethos binds our society even unto the 21st century. A simple answer to the guys who said, " This is not Christian, Don't go there", is "Thank God I'm an atheist" (how's that for a terminally "mixed metaphor"?). A more complex answer is to suggest a trip to the "Liberated Christians" site. They seem to disagree with you. We all remain in prisons of our making, and nobody but ourselves holds the key. The job of life is humane escape and exploration to become the best we can become. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the guts to consider unlocking the cell door and letting the breeze in, let alone stepping across the threshold. I am surprised how little generosity I am seeing here directed to the people we say we love. Noone seems to consider that their partner might have significant positive feelings for a person other than themselves that cause emotional pain in the partner when denied. More accurately, most of us seem to be aware of and acknowledge the reality of the above and seek to deny the partner that happiness for our own reasons. Think about it. It is not a pretty point of view, nor an honorable one. Because of our own insecurities, we are unwilling to let someone we say we love have something that would doubtless make them more happy. Seen less generously, we seem to be willing to condem our partners to needless suffering so we can feel comfy and not need to be challenged and risk growth. Freedom from choice, indeed. "All of the tears you're crying are for yourself, they're not for me..."

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 65 (view)

what do men look for in a women? Posted: 5/3/2006 3:20:14 PM
oops. the above was in response to bmoose above at the top of the page and not to the lady that posted just above me. Sorry. Still getting the way these threads work figured out... Pukkaorchestra

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 64 (view)

what do men look for in a women? Posted: 5/3/2006 3:18:20 PM
These are the characteristics of a fine dog or horse...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 31 (view)

Married folks: Are friendships with the opposite sex considered cheating? Posted: 5/1/2006 7:15:17 PM
I'm operating here unconstrained by the thought process, but... Seems to me that freindships with the opposite sex are not generally considered "cheating", but they should be, logically speaking. I say this because friendship involves love, I don't think that one can identify distinct species of love and ANY relationship has the potential to be sexual... Wow. This chain of reasoning has ominous implications for sexual identity and gender ID... It's tough to be a primate, but that is our heritage, like it or not... Maybe I should wait for the meds to kick in...

pukkaorchestra

Joined: 5/1/2006

Msg: 17 (view)

Kinda messed up right now. Posted: 5/1/2006 6:42:15 PM
Hi there. I will try to avoid making anybody wrong here, so here is my response. You seem to be saying that you and your child are not in iminent danger and you are held in place by financial ties. These can be considerable, and it is tough to walk away from investments (That accurately describes the things we humans build together, whether emotional or real in the legal sense), so I don't disparage them. Nonetheless, if you truly feel abused, no amount of cash can make it worth it to stay. You can get money again, but self-respect and peace of mind are more valuable and tougher to come by. I say this with certainty as somebody who has lived through a lot of emotional abuse. It can take years to get through. You probably want to live rather than persist, so don't submit to abuse lightly. And another thing: don't worry about whether others would agree that the relationship is bad for you. Be honest with yourself, and if you think you need out, it does not matter if anyone agrees with you or not. All that said, I don't advocate leaving precipitously or immediately if there is no immediate danger. I advise being certain that this is how you truly feel (ie., that at this moment you are not under the influence of high energy emotions that might change in the near future). I suggest you live with your decision long enough to go "flat" on it (perhaps only a matter of hours, maybe longer...you know if you have done it already or not). The hallmark of going flat on an issue is that the energy goes out of your considerations. My rule of thumb is if a course of action feels REALLY good (ie., satifies an emotional need), you probably have not gone flat on the issue and the planned course may not be in your long-term interest. Once you cross the Rubicon on that count and are sure what you think, it seems like you should look into your formal legal rights to your home and property. I am not an attorney, and you might be served to consult one. He/she may be able to suggest ways to prepare yourself to leave on the best terms possible. Parenthetically, no matter how emotionally satisfying it may seem, DON'T tell your significant other what you are doing or plan until he can't preclude it. We don't like to think of relationships this way, but at some level they become like chess, and you have to be a bit strategic to take care of yourself and your child. Anyhow, if the answer from the lawyer is that you have no recourse to retreive your financial investment should you leave, AND if you really think yours is an abusive, degrading relationship, then walk away from the monetary investment. There is more cash in the world, but not another you. Doing so will take guts. I sincerely hope it is not needed, but do not take the path of least resistance and stay where you are deeply unhappy. That has a different cost than losing the house. Keep in mind that you may avoid a fiscal penalty by staying, but you and your child will pay for it in mental health. Excuse my chutspah for advising. Good luck. Pukkaorchestra

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