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 Author Thread: Ft Hood Incident Highlights Dangers of Gun Control
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 90 (view)
 
Ft Hood Incident Highlights Dangers of Gun Control
Posted: 11/10/2009 1:30:17 PM

You got no proof that it has to do with his religion and nor does the media or FBI either.

In addition................

You also don't know whether he is Muslim or not. Someone's name doesn't indicate his religion.


Let me guess, you really do live in a cave with no TV or radio reception, no newspapers or internet, nor any other way to actually gather information way out in LA-LA land somewhere right ??

Cause I can’t think of any other reason you could make the above statements and actually think there are people in the world stupid enough to buy them.

And no. I’m not physic, but I am blessed with common sense.
Here, even CNN has some info not completely PC usless http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/10/fort.hood.shooting/index.html

And once tried and convicted, he should be shot for treason.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 83 (view)
 
Ft Hood Incident Highlights Dangers of Gun Control
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:45:36 AM

Ft Hood Incident Highlights Dangers of Gun Control


Actually I think the Ft Hood incident highlights the danger of "not" having Muslim control ...
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 5 (view)
 
What is he thinking?
Posted: 10/30/2009 12:43:07 PM
The better question may be ... What in the HELL are you thinking ????
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 6 (view)
 
Why do you want to know about old boyfriends?
Posted: 10/30/2009 12:25:48 PM
Your profile doesn’t give a lot of detail, and probably leads to some of those questions.

You list yourself as single, yet you have a child or children, yet no details.
So where is the father, how many fathers if you have more than one child, is he or they involved with the child, and so forth and so on …. these are all legit questions.

Yes, I can see how guys in your age group may be asking questions in a somewhat clumsy way trying to figure out just what they may be getting into if they get involved with you.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 20 (view)
 
So what should I do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 12:07:58 PM
Let’s see, you want to fix your marriage, which has been damaged by not spending enough time together by spending even less time together.

Right, I got it …..

Ok you are both still young 20 somethings,
Ok you are both still college students,
Luckily you have no kids together.

Time to act like adults, end this little trial marriage and move on.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 10 (view)
 
Why is it sexy when a girl a bitch?
Posted: 10/29/2009 2:46:13 PM
I think she means the ole “ You’re so cute when your mad” line some guys will use.

Here’s a clue … they say that either to dismiss your being mad as no big deal, or they say it just to piss you off even more ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
 
CNN Drops to Last Place Among Cable News Networks
Posted: 10/27/2009 8:41:22 AM

" CNN, which invented the cable news network more than two decades ago, will hit a new competitive low with its prime-time programs in October, finishing fourth – and last – among the cable news networks with the audience that all the networks rely on for their advertising. "

Me thinks, most people are starting to get fed up with the propaganda being passed off as news.


" Individually, the CNN shows were beaten resoundingly by all the Fox News programs, "
WOW, imagine that ... little ole Fox is beating the crap out of them. Hmmm I wonder why if Fox is really like some seem to think nothing but right wing propaganda ????


" For the month, CNN averaged 202,000 viewers between the ages of 25 and 54 – the group that television news organizations use as their basis of success because of their advertising sales. That was far behind the dominant leader, Fox News, which averaged 689,000. "

For those of you who may be math challenged that is more than 3.4 x as many ......


" CNN executives emphasized that the network continues to draw more viewers than all its competitors except Fox News when all hours of the day are counted. "

I guess thats like saying, we didn't win but, we didn't lose either, so thats good news right ???

Lets take a quick look at the primetime numbers shall we ??

At 7 p.m.
The big winner was Shepard Smith on Fox with 465,000 viewers.
Second was Chris Matthews and “Hardball” on MSNBC, with 179,000 viewers.
Third was Jane Velez Mitchell on HLN, with 166,000 .
Fourth was CNN's Lou Dobbs with 162,000.
{A side note, Shepard Smith is news and not opinion programing}

At 8 p.m. CNN’s performance was the worst.
Bill O’Reilly on Fox News continued his long dominance with the biggest numbers of any host, 881,000 viewers.
Mr. Olbermann, with his first-run program, was second with 295,000.
Close behind was the first edition of Ms. Grace’s show with 269,000.
Campbell Brown on CNN trailed with only 162,000.

At 9 p.m.
Sean Hannity’s show on Fox News had a huge lead with 659,000 viewers.
Second was Rachel Maddow on MSNBC with 242,000.
CNN's Larry King averaged 224,000.
Joy Behar on HLN had 181,000.

At 10 p.m.
Greta Van Susteren, had 538,000 viewers.
A repeat of Nancy Grace’s 8 p.m. show averaged 222,000.
A repeat of Keith Olbermans 8 p.m. show averaged 223,000.
CNN's Anderson Cooper came in fourth with 211,000 viewers.

Now I’m sure I’ll be the minority voice here, but it seems like Americans really want the real news, not the party line news being repeated everywhere, and are willing to put up with some minor partisan coloring to get it. (In the opinion shows, not the news.) Where was the unbiased coverage of the townhall meetings ? Where was CNN's coverage of the massive 9/12 taxpayer protest march on Washington DC ? Where was the in depth coverage of the Acorn scandle ? How can they call themselves a news organization, or expect anyone other than unthinking drones to watch, when they don’t even cover the real news?

Sadly it seems most of the media "hound dogs" are asleep on the porch of the White House, while the "Fox" runs free.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 3 (view)
 
From lover to boyfriend
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:18:49 AM
Tell him you consider him nothing but a boy toy, to be played with and enjoyed for awhile, but due to your age differences thats all it will ever be.

He might just be ok with that ,,,,
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
 
Can friendship evolve into something greater for real?
Posted: 10/21/2009 12:54:17 PM
Let me translate for you …..



And there are times where your relationship is more romantic than just an ordinary friendship.

In other words ya’ll be hooking up and sleeping together sometimes. You’re FB’s.


She wants something more

She wants a relationship,


but you don't feel the same way

he already has what he wants from her at least for now.


that maybe one day you could be more than just friends.

But for now we are going to keep our options open, cause hey someone I like better may come along ..


Sorry but that’s how I see it…..

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 34 (view)
 
Not The Momma
Posted: 10/16/2009 11:26:18 AM

Whether or not I have children of my own really has nothing to do with my competencies and knowledge in the field.


Respectfully, Dude you can have all the book smarts and fancy pieces of paper in the world, but until you have actually raised your very own children, you don’t know sh!+.

Until you have faced having to discipline someone who loves you unconditionally like a child does, you have no idea what being a parent is.

Until you have to be the meanest person (their words) in the world to someone you love unconditionally, you have no idea what being a parent is.

Until you have to look into the face of a child and say “NO” to something they want but you know is not right or good for them at this time, you have no idea what being a parent is.

Until you have sat in a ER while your child is stitched up like an old pair of jeans because they did something they have been told over and over not to do, and dealt with the mix of emotions at that time, you have no idea what being a parent is.

Sorry Mr. you have no idea what being a parent is.


I have had quite a few years of step-parenting experience, though, and more importantly, I am a certified parent educator and a child researcher.


“And more importantly” … To you perhaps, and maybe a few delusional people out there that believe someone who has read a few books and taken a few classes is somehow qualified to dispense advice to those of us with real world experience, sorry not me, a parent educator ?? I would get up and walk out of your class as soon as I learned you had no children of your own.

You can take all the classes & read all the books in the world on surgery, but I’ll be damned if you think your gonna operate on me without any experience.

You can memorize a Chilton’s repair manual, but you aren’t changing the brakes on my car.

You can stand there and spout Federal aviation regulations all day long, doesn’t mean I trust you to work on the plane my family and I are about to get on.

And until you have your own kids, your just another “blow hard know it all” with no real world experience and an over rated opinion, and you know what they say about opinions ….

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 30 (view)
 
Not The Momma
Posted: 10/16/2009 7:42:30 AM
I second Fab’s advice to those who have no kids, yet want to tell those of us that do how to raise them, grow a couple of your own kids to practice your new age crap on then come back and tell the rest of us how that worked out for you & them. (and the rest of society for that matter)

Now that my son is 11, time outs just don’t really do it anymore, even being grounded has a limited effect, and while a spanking works to convey an immediate point of view, it’s not my preferred method for a number of reasons, however the other night I made him write sentences … yep I’m sure several of you remember that time tested form of discipline.

He was begging me to just ground him or make him go to time out “like his MOM does” … I'll tell you, the way he carried on that was the worst hour of his short little life ever, of course he made it worse on himself, by first arguing, (more sentences) second complaining (more sentences) and then modifying the sentence so that it was shorter and easier to write then the original, so he got to redo all of those.

Yep raising kids requires you to have a mixed bag of tools at your disposal in order to teach life’s little lessons, if you limit yourself, you really are limiting them.


the rule is 1 minute for each year and yes , 30 minutes is too long for a 5-year-old,


Who made that rule ?? someone without kids I’ll bet, sheeesh, not sure how you were raised but for me timeout was for however long mom felt like taking a break.


what I remember as the worst punishments when I was an older child was my mother making me sit in a chair in the living room and do nothing, before they invented the time-out.


Uhhh, pssst, hey package, that was a “time out”, the old fashioned kind of time out that didn’t come with rules for how long you had to sit there, and uh, it sounds rather similar to what my mom did ….

Hell a five yr old will whine and cry about having to go to time out longer than five minutes, you really willing to play that game ? Timeout means “go to your room till I tell you to come out”.

At least that’s how my three sisters and I were raised and our “fragile little egos” survived just fine …..
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 10 (view)
 
Eating in the morning
Posted: 10/15/2009 2:47:52 PM
Fresh fruit, bananas, apples, oranges quick easy and grab n go.

granola bars with nothing to wash em down with suck.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Not The Momma
Posted: 10/15/2009 2:43:26 PM
Suckers every one of you ....

Should have stuck to the 30 minutes, he scamed you and he knows it ....
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 329 (view)
 
President Obama Wins The Nobel Peace Prize!
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:09:07 AM

Soooooo ... if you or any of the other "haters" should happen to win the Nobel Peace Prize in the next few years ... it will just be a big joke? It will mean absolutely nothing?


No, it will mean I'm 1.4 million dollars richer, and I could sure use the money.


The Nobel committee has made the Nobel Peace Prize one of the most ridiculous prizes for anyone to win.


They actually did that last year when they gave it to the Goracle, this year they essintially confirmed it is nothing but a political statement.
A liberal boobie prize if you will.

Now let's see ... where is that laughing icon?

Ah yes ... there it is ...
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 326 (view)
 
President Obama Wins The Nobel Peace Prize!
Posted: 10/15/2009 7:28:47 AM
And today we have ...


Majority of Nobel jury 'objected to Obama prize'
(AFP) – 2 hours ago

OSLO — Three of the five members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee had objections to the Nobel Peace Prize being awarded to US President Barack Obama, the Norwegian tabloid Verdens Gang (VG) reported Thursday.


But ya know what, the "0" being awarded the prize gives me hope, after all I haven't "yet" brokered world peace but hey I might, so I figure that means I'm in the running for next year’s prize.

And since we are talking about awards given out for things I "might" do, I'll take my Oscar anytime, after all I might be in a movie some day. Ya think I could be in the next Transformers movie with Megan Fox ?

How about a Tony award, not that I've been in a Broadway play but I have seen Cat's and Phantom of the Opera, does that count ?

And then there is the Nobel Prize for literature, I think this post alone should put me in the running for it, but no need for me to wait, so they should just go ahead and send it now.

And I’ll bet if I thought about it, I could come up with a number of awards I qualify for based on the fact that I “might” do something to actually earn them one day, but hey why should I have to wait ?

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 20 (view)
 
Skinny- athletic Vs. Average- chubby
Posted: 10/14/2009 12:38:55 PM
Athletic or Average, … whatever you want to think, however your pics are the typical type pics a woman takes when she is hiding her true body shape, side shots, face shots, and no full body shot.
This guy may have been burned in the past and has caught on to these tricks.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 39 (view)
 
The unoffical rules of dating a single mother.
Posted: 10/14/2009 9:01:39 AM
I found it !!!

For a man, dating a woman with kids may mean:
1... No overnight stays...
2... Sudden cancellations to plans... I've been sitting down to a great dinner in a nice restaurant and we have to drop everything and leave for a kid emergency...
3... Kids may do whatever they can to ruin your relationship (See #2) Including accusations of just about anything.
4... You get to put up with all the flak the kids want to give you, but you are unable to have any say, discipline or argument on the matter... They can be little angels when mommy is watching and Satan incarnate when she's not there...
5... Anything you do costs more... Dinner in nice restaurants for 2 becomes dinner at McDonalds for 4... Hotels, don't ask... maybe need two rooms? or larger suite...?
6... You and your girlfriend are welcome at your friend's cottages... You and your girlfriend and her kids are NOT welcome at your friend's cottages...
7... Like walking around naked when it's just you and your G/F? Well, no more.... because it's never "just you and your G/F" anymore...
8... Depending on the age of the kids, and their bedtimes determines what you do even if it's only watching television.... Arguments over what to watch are more interesting when you get to choose between Sesame Street or the Game.... You cannot win no matter the outcome....
9... If the kids get sick, EVERYONE gets sick! And Kids do get sick a lot....
10. Nothing kills the mood like having the kids open the door without knocking.... or the threat of it happening...
11. Money is usually tighter... if not for you, for her...
12. Get used to meeting the kids father all the time if he's around... and oddly enough, he may not like you... If you're not big on meeting your G/F's ex lovers, this can be a strain...
13. Get used to hearing all about him... the kids love to tell you all the great things he does for them....
14. Get used to sometimes having to sit at home, while your G/F and her Ex go out together to do some kid related things....
15. Your evening with your G/F doesn't really start until after the kid's bedtimes... or an hour or two and or a few interruptions later....
16. Said evening means having the music or TV turned down low so as to not wake the little ones...
17. Sometimes you will have to meet the kids grandparents from the Father's side... Oddly, they won't like you either...
18. And consider this, if you do get involved long term with her and her kids... What happens to the kids if anything should happen to her...????


OP, do as you wish but do it after being informed .....
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 35 (view)
 
The unoffical rules of dating a single mother.
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:19:34 AM
I couldn’t resist this thread …. and m_church's new rules .. ( I'll have to find the old ones)

The benefits of dating a single Mom ….. for a guy in his 20’s

1) Her fridge probably has more food in it than yours
2) Actually knows where the kitchen is in her house
3) May even know how to use most of the appliances in the kitchen
4) Probably has a washer and dryer
5) Knows how to use the above washer & dryer
6) Knows there is more to washing cloth’s than just colors or whites
7) More guys nights out, after all she can’t go to happy hour, she’s got to pick the kids up after work
8) Cheap date, movie & a pizza (option #1)
9) Probably has an X-box, Playstation or WII for her kids (cheap date option #2)


And the number one reason (as someone else mentioned) she puts out, after all she has the trophies to prove it …..
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 48 (view)
 
President Obama Wins The Nobel Peace Prize!
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:37:37 PM
The very thought that he has done anything worthy of this is well just ...
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 44 (view)
 
What is happening with ACORN?
Posted: 9/17/2009 9:28:33 AM

Is this thread for real? There are truly people who think that by jumping on this and trying to somehow associate it in the long run with OBAMA, that it will "tarnish his polished image"? It's so far removed from OBAMA that I can't see how it could be connected in any way.


If you do not see how this will hurt him, then it is you who is “so far removed” from reason and logic that it is unbelievable.


that it will "tarnish his polished image"?


You know, I watched the guys on Mythbusters polish turds in one episode, guess what ? no matter how shiny, they were still turds.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html

And as for how the “0” is connected … well let’s explore a couple of ways shall we ……

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/14767


As a reminder, the below are only a few of the direct ties and activities that the Obama pretender-to-the-throne has engaged in with ACORN. Many may now view them with newly refreshed eyes:
• In a number of crucial cases, Obama was the Attorney for the Chicago ACORN chapter and he used them to assist him in his run for the Illinois State Senate in 1996
• In 1992, prior to his working as ACORN’s attorney, Obama was Executive Director of ACORN subsidiary “Project Vote” Obama trained ACORN workers
• While sitting on the board of the Woods Foundation, Obama and domestic terrorist William Ayers—who is also a major Obama fundraiser—arranged for grants for ACORN
• While both on the board of Chicago’s Annenberg Challenge—Ayers and Obama with Obama as Chairman—funds were funneled to ACORN
• In his November 2007 speech to ACORN, Obama stated: “I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work.”
• In his run for the Democrat presidential nomination, Obama paid ACORN subsidiary “Citizen’s Services, Inc.” over $830,000 to engage in ACORN ‘get out the vote’ activities (these would later be called the Obama-ACORN Voter Fraud Alliance)
• ACORN is falsely registered as “non-partisan,” as its leader Maude Hurd endorsed Obama for president
• Tax dollars collected from US citizens are paying for this Obama and Democrat Party fraud voter fraud group. Did you know that?


Yes, and now the rest of the country will learn it as well.


I'm starting to smell a set up. ..


You should see an ear, nose & throat specialist as I think you must be sick in the head.


I wonder if REAL (Pulitzer type) investigative reporters will find a link between the 'filmmaker' and the 'Acorn employees'?


Define real, even Jon Stewart “the lefts most trusted anchorman” is asking where the real reporters are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UrP1bq8vpc


Sorry, I just can't see any rational person condoning let alone assisting child prostitution!


You can’t see it, because you don’t want to see it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/16/us.acorn/index.html


The community organizing group ACORN on Wednesday announced a hiring freeze, new training programs and an independent review of its programs after the recent release of a series of videotapes embarrassing to the agency.

The statement issued by ACORN on Wednesday stands in sharp contrast to comments earlier in the week, in which a spokesman called the recordings' release "an orchestrated sham."

Seems even they see it, and also see that after five different videos (with still more to come) they simply can’t deny it any longer.

[Quote] As the announcement was made, FBI Director Robert Mueller appeared on Capitol Hill for a wide-ranging oversight hearing, and when asked about ACORN, he signaled a potential federal investigation of the organization.

Stay tuned for the next episode of “ When the Acorn Falls” coming soon to a news channel in your area ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 33 (view)
 
What is happening with ACORN?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:29:01 PM

Does anybody else think Fox may have gotten 'punked'?


No, I think if anybody got punked, it is ACORN


imagine the lawsuits of the dismissed Acorn employees


Actually I am waiting for lawsuits from the dismissed employees, claiming they were wrongfully terminated for just doing what they had been taught to do.


Could be interesting!


Could be ??? Hell I’ll be sitting in-front of the TV with a big ole bag of popcorn waiting for tonight’s film. Rumor has it that it will be another California office, maybe San Diego.

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 12 (view)
 
What is happening with ACORN?
Posted: 9/15/2009 12:37:37 PM

I've heard so much negitive stuff about ACORN,..that Im going to do a little research myself......


If your post isn’t meant to be sarcastic you need to.


Its bad enough, that we have TAX Cheats,...but to me, its even more horriable to have people posing as a pimp and prostitute,..asking for advice,....
"on how to falsify tax forms and set-up a child prostitution business"

What kind of people do that ?


In this case, they are called “Investigative Reporters”


Now,.it used to be,..that If you were minding your own business,..and someone talked you into commiting a crime ,..that was called "Entrapment",....if the person would NOT of otherwise commited such an act.


Unfortunately for ACORN offering tax advice to low income people is part of “their business” so this is more like a “Sting” than “entrapment”


and just because ONE,....Tax Consultant working for ACORN commits an unjust act, or unlawfull act,...doesnt mean the entire group of ACORN members are criminals


Again unfortunately for ACORN it’s not just one, that’s three different offices in three different cities, six different employees I believe, plus eleven arrested and facing charges for voter registration fraud in Florida, with cases still pending in 13 other cities.


I'll have to read more,..and digest, what my feeling are about ACORN really are.


Well keep a bottle of Pepto Bismol at hand as you may feel sick as you try and digest the part about employing underage girls from El Salvador to work as prostitutes.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
 
What is happening with ACORN?
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:58:01 AM
What disgusts me as much as the ACORN employees treating these two and their requests as legitimate, as if it’s just another day at the office helping whores, & pimps commit fraud of varying degrees , are the people defending them and or hoping the young journalists/filmmakers are charged or sued for something.

It’s absolutely sickening to try and defend in any way these ACORN nuts for what these kids have exposed them as.
These two kids are real journalists, these kids have done what our MSM has failed or better yet refused to do since the “0” stepped onto the stage 2 years ago.

These kids should be nominated for a Pulitzer Prize for investigative journalism for what they have done.


The film makers that so proudly put these videos together will have to answer in court for publishing the hidden camera videos because at least 2 of the states they did it in have laws against it.


Perhaps, as there are a lot of twisted people out there wanting it, but most DA’s and Prosecutors are elected officials, in other words politicians, and the public outcry against them if they went after these kids would be sure and swift, so don’t bet too much on it.

And despite ACORNS threat to sue, again don’t bet on it, as that would open them up in court to “Discovery” and the last thing they want is to have a bunch of prosecutors pouring thru their books.

Also I’m betting this isn’t over and the hits will keep coming, can anybody say “Film at Eleven” ???

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 72 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/26/2009 9:49:07 AM

Uhh, I have a question. How come you ignored MJ's post where he made the case that you were butchering quotes in order to make a false point?


I didn’t ignore it, I laughed at it, (As I did with everything MJ posted) As far as the butchering of the quotes go, well again that’s an opinion not completely shared by all. I think it’s safe to say we have different opinions on what is true and factual, I have the “RIGHT opinion, and ya’ll have the wrong, ahhh, sorry I mean the left opinion.


He in essence demonstrated that you lied. YMMV, but to me that is a serious accusation that would be confronted immediately and wholeheartedly.

Lied ? So having a different opinion of the interpretations is now lying ? Also please excuse me if I found other things to do with my life over a weekend, and then come Monday morning was too busy doing my job to care what a bunch of leftist thought. Especially the ones that do not live here, thus can’t vote here thus their opinions while admittedly they are entitled to them really do not matter.

But since you feel I should respond I suppose I shall ….

First in general, MJ basically made the same arguments I did, he just tries to spin them to left, as do most on here so my statements all of them still stand.

It was MJ that first took Federalist 29 out of context while trying to claim I did, I was bored at work Friday so I thought I would play, but I was never under the impression I could seriously enlighten anyone here, as no one here engages in anything more than back and forth rhetoric that adheres to their particular political beliefs. ( and sadly that’s all responding will do, continue the back and forth B.S.)

MJ also conveniently ignored all the other statements (please see post 61) I provided from some of the other founders so as to explicitly narrow his focus upon one document he mistakenly thinks proves his out of context misperceptions in-regard to “Standing Armies”, “National Guards” & the “Militia”.

Like all good leftists the objective is to try and redefine the word “Militia” and have it stand for some form of Govt. controlled force, where as the current and the correct reading of all of the documents pertaining to the formation of the Federal Govt. including the Federalist papers, newspaper editorials of the time, letters to each other, recorded statements to their constituents, ect… ect… clearly imply our founding fathers meant for us to have an individual right to posses firearms for our own personal use. They also clearly meant for us to use those firearms if needed to rise up and put down any Govt. that should need putting down.

This now brings us back on topic, as my original assertion, in my original post (see #26) that the man carrying the AR was in essence simply carrying a sign, whose meaning should be loud and clear to our elected officials who seem to have forgotten who they work for.


Oh, and a little hint, snide and condescending only work when you are both right and know how to use them well.


I expect our opinions may differ on this well, I am, and I do.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 69 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:37:22 AM
Well I see the left side of the class has been busy, unfortunately I see they continue to cling to their misconceptions and continue to try and redefine words so as to push an agenda.

Obviously pointing out the history isn’t helping, pointing out other statements and writings isn’t helping, as those have been conveniently ignored, so we will just have to conclude that ideology is simply getting in the way of common sense, along with reading comprehension.

Let’s try something simple, since it seems the “definition of the “word militia” is the main problem still . Of course the left has been trying to redefine the word so as to claim the Second Amendment doesn’t provide for private individual gun ownership for over sixty years, odd though that the first nine amendments (2nd included) are clearly recognized as pertaining to an individual right, yet still the left persists in trying to fight the 2nd by claiming it is not an individual right. Talk about beating your head against a brick wall, then again perhaps that helps explain the way they are.

Here it is, like it or not the word “militia” as currently defined by the govt.
• United States Code
o TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
 SUBTITLE A - GENERAL MILITARY LAW
 PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
 CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA
• Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

• (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
• males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
• 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
• declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
• and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
• National Guard.
• (b) The classes of the militia are -
• (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
• and the Naval Militia; and
• (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
• the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
• Naval Militia.

Is that clear enough for you ???? I mean really , must I define the words “All able-bodied” for you, or how about the words “the unorganized militia” or finally, perhaps the words “not members of the National Guard” so now is it clear enough …

NO, you say, that’s really sad, well since you need more … http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html
Historical context
The 2nd Amendment, starting in the latter half of the 20th century, became an object of much debate. Concerned with rising violence in society, and the role firearms play in that violence, gun control advocates began to read the 2nd Amendment one way. On the other side, firearm enthusiasts saw the attacks on gun ownership as attacks on freedom, and defended their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment just as fiercely. If the authors of the 2nd Amendment could have foreseen the debate, they might have phrased the amendment differently, because much of the debate has centered around the way the amendment is phrased.
Is the amendment one that was created to ensure the continuation and flourishing of the state militias as a means of defense, or was it created to ensure an individual's right to own a firearm.
Despite the rhetoric on both sides of the issue, the answer to both questions is most likely, "Yes." The attitude of Americans toward the military was much different in the 1790's than it is today. Standing armies were mistrusted, as they had been used as tools of oppression by the monarchs of Europe for centuries. In the war for independence, there had been a regular army, but much of the fighting had been done by the state militias, under the command of local officers. Aside from the war, militias were needed because attacks were relatively common, whether by bandits, Indians, and even by troops from other states.
Today, the state militias have evolved into the National Guard in every state. These soldiers, while part-time, are professionally trained and armed by the government. No longer are regular, non-Guardsmen, expected to take up arms in defense of the state or the nation (though the US Code does still recognize the unorganized militia as an entity, and state laws vary on the subject [10 USC 311]).
This is in great contrast to the way things were at the time of adoption of the 2nd Amendment. Many state constitutions had a right to bear arms for the purposes of the maintenance of the militia. Many had laws that required men of age to own a gun and supplies, including powder and bullets.
Today's debate
With the historical context set above, a look at the current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment are appropriate.
These interpretations tend to lean in one of two ways. The first is that the amendment was meant to ensure that individuals have the absolute right to own firearms; the second is that the amendment was meant to ensure that States could form, arm, and maintain their own militias. Either way, it is a bar to federal action only, because the 2nd Amendment has not been incorporated by the Supreme Court to apply to the states. This means that within its own constitution, a state may be as restrictive or unrestrictive as it wishes to be in the regulation of firearms; likewise, private rules and regulations may prohibit or encourage firearms. For example, if a housing association wishes to bar any firearm from being held within its borders, it is free to do so.
Documentary history
It is often useful to not only try to interpret what the words of a part of the Constitution mean today, but also to see what they meant in the past. Proponents of the Original Intent method of interpretation always use the original meaning when looking at the Constitution. But even those who do not adhere to Original Intent still find the documentary history to be useful.
What follows are mentions of the right to bear arms in the documents leading up to the codification of the 2nd Amendment. Most are referenced on this site or others. Those that are not are transcribed from the publication The Bill of Rights (National Archives and Records Administration, 1980).
From the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776): That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state...
From the Vermont Constitution (1777): That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State...
From the Articles of Confederation (1781): ...every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.
From the New Hampshire Ratification Document (1788): Congress shall never disarm any citizen, unless such as are or have been in actual rebellion.
From the Virginia Ratification Document (1788): That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state... That any person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms ought to be exempted upon payment of an equivalent to employ another to bear arms in his stead.
From the New York Ratification Document (1788): That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state.
From Madison's Introduction of the Bill of Rights (1789): The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
From the Report of the House Committee of Eleven (1789): A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.
From the amendments as passed by the House (1789): A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.
From the amendments as passed by the Senate (1789): A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
From the Rhode Island Ratification Document (1790): That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state...

Ya’ll have a nice day,
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 64 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/21/2009 3:08:07 PM
And I sir maintain it is “YOU” that’s needs remedial reading classes, your comprehension as displayed so far is obviously inadequate to the task.

I suggest you start reading at Federalist #1 and then when you have actually digested the last word of Federalist # 85 then perhaps you sir can then engage in an intelligent conversation as to the thoughts of Americas founding Fathers.

My statement that the Federalist #29 addressee’s the concerns in regard to the formation of a “Standing Army” still Stands, in-fact you yourself seem one minute to agree then turn and take it out of context yourself. But your problem appears to be you are narrowly focusing on the 29th and views as to the definition of the word militia and the word State which requires careful reading on your part so as to distinguish whether the subject at hand is an individual state or the collection of states spoken as a singular or in the Federal collective since. And your mistaken belief that militia is a state controlled entity.

Other than that, for the most part you seem to be arguing the same point I am.


He is arguing that the training of the entire populace in order to form a 'well regulated' militia is impossible for practicality (too many people, too much time), financial reasons (too expensive, a drain on the labour force, cause economic instability) and as a violation of rights (forcing all people to be in the militia whether they want to or not).

No Sh1t Sherlock, At least you seem to have gotten that point right, and we actually agree on this point. Hamilton is arguing for a “Standing Army”

He goes on to argue that since the idea of a militia of the whole populace is impractical, financially disasterous and against the rights of the people that the only practical solution to achieving a 'well regulated' militia is to form "a select corps" of militia

Well once more you were doing good, have a cookie, we again seem to be agreeing up to this point, then you went off the deep end. As you seem to want to treat the Federalist 29th as a standalone solitary document, and apply your rather unusual definitions of the words state & militia, that is your mistake, it must be read in the context of it being only one page out of a total of 85 pages of debate.

Then your assertion that he is somehow arguing for individual State militias falls completely apart as we will get to later, but we must go back to the Federalist #23 where concerns about mutual defense is starting to be addressed and then move forward.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/fed.asp (please refer to this link for future references)

Whether there ought to be a federal government intrusted with the care of the common defense, is a question in the first instance, open for discussion; but the moment it is decided in the affirmative, it will follow, that that government ought to be clothed with all the powers requisite to complete execution of its trust. And unless it can be shown that the circumstances which may affect the public safety are reducible within certain determinate limits; unless the contrary of this position can be fairly and rationally disputed, it must be admitted, as a necessary consequence, that there can be no limitation of that authority which is to provide for the defense and protection of the community, in any matter essential to its efficacy that is, in any matter essential to the FORMATION, DIRECTION, or SUPPORT of the NATIONAL FORCES.

Now we get to Federalist #24 and the first signs that there was an unease with the keeping of “Standing Armies” and the feeling that militias would be impractical.

To THE powers proposed to be conferred upon the federal government, in respect to the creation and direction of the national forces, I have met with but one specific objection, which, if I understand it right, is this, that proper provision has not been made against the existence of standing armies in time of peace; an objection which, I shall now endeavor to show, rests on weak and unsubstantial foundations.
And then further down ..
Previous to the Revolution, and ever since the peace, there has been a constant necessity for keeping small garrisons on our Western frontier. No person can doubt that these will continue to be indispensable, if it should only be against the ravages and depredations of the Indians. These garrisons must either be furnished by occasional detachments from the militia, or by permanent corps in the pay of the government. The first is impracticable; and if practicable, would be pernicious. The militia would not long, if at all, submit to be dragged from their occupations and families to perform that most disagreeable duty in times of profound peace. And if they could be prevailed upon or compelled to do it, the increased expense of a frequent rotation of service, and the loss of labor and disconcertion of the industrious pursuits of individuals, would form conclusive objections to the scheme.

Now as to the distrust of “Standing Armies”,

This statement of the matter is taken from the printed collection of State constitutions. Pennsylvania and North Carolina are the two which contain the interdiction in these words: "As standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, THEY OUGHT NOT to be kept up.'' This is, in truth, rather a CAUTION than a PROHIBITION. New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Delaware, and Maryland have, in each of their bils of rights, a clause to this effect: "Standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be raised or kept up WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE LEGISLATURE''; which is a formal admission of the authority of the Legislature.

So as one can imagine things start to get interesting… On to Federalist #25

Reasons have been already given to induce a supposition that the State governments will too naturally be prone to a rivalship with that of the Union, the foundation of which will be the love of power; and that in any contest between the federal head and one of its members the people will be most apt to unite with their local government. If, in addition to this immense advantage, the ambition of the members should be stimulated by the separate and independent possession of military forces, it would afford too strong a temptation and too great a facility to them to make enterprises upon, and finally to subvert, the constitutional authority of the Union. On the other hand, the liberty of the people would be less safe in this state of things than in that which left the national forces in the hands of the national government. As far as an army may be considered as a dangerous weapon of power, it had better be in those hands of which the people are most likely to be jealous than in those of which they are least likely to be jealous. For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
The framers of the existing Confederation, fully aware of the danger to the Union from the separate possession of military forces by the States, have, in express terms, prohibited them from having either ships or troops, unless with the consent of Congress. The truth is, that the existence of a federal government and military establishments under State authority are not less at variance with each other than a due supply of the federal treasury and the system of quotas and requisitions.
Here I expect we shall be told that the militia of the country is its natural bulwark, and would be at all times equal to the national defense. This doctrine, in substance, had like to have lost us our independence. It cost millions to the United States that might have been saved. The facts which, from our own experience, forbid a reliance of this kind, are too recent to permit us to be the dupes of such a suggestion. The steady operations of war against a regular and disciplined army can only be successfully conducted by a force of the same kind. Considerations of economy, not less than of stability and vigor, confirm this position. The American militia, in the course of the late war, have, by their valor on numerous occasions, erected eternal monuments to their fame; but the bravest of them feel and know that the liberty of their country could not have been established by their efforts alone, however great and valuable they were. War, like most other things, is a science to be acquired and perfected by diligence, by perserverance, by time, and by practice.

And there goes your argument for Hamilton’s support of individual “State militias”
Now on to Federalist #26 and the debate continues in regard to “Standing Armies” I’ll give a few examples, but please go read the whole thing …

It may not be amiss in this place concisely to remark the origin and progress of the idea, which aims at the exclusion of military establishments in time of peace. Though in speculative minds it may arise from a contemplation of the nature and tendency of such institutions, fortified by the events that have happened in other ages and countries, yet as a national sentiment, it must be traced to those habits of thinking which we derive from the nation from whom the inhabitants of these States have in general sprung.
And Further down …
The legislature of the United States will be OBLIGED, by this provision, once at least in every two years, to deliberate upon the propriety of keeping a military force on foot; to come to a new resolution on the point; and to declare their sense of the matter, by a formal vote in the face of their constituents. They are not AT LIBERTY to vest in the executive department permanent funds for the support of an army.
And Further down …again
But it is an evil infinitely less likely to attend us in a united than in a disunited state; nay, it may be safely asserted that it is an evil altogether unlikely to attend us in the latter situation. It is not easy to conceive a possibility that dangers so formidable can assail the whole Union, as to demand a force considerable enough to place our liberties in the least jeopardy, especially if we take into our view the aid to be derived from the militia, which ought always to be counted upon as a valuable and powerful auxiliary. But in a state of disunion (as has been fully shown in another place), the contrary of this supposition would become not only probable, but almost unavoidable.

While not exactly how things are done, we’re getting there. Note the mention of the militia as a deterrent to the force of a standing army, clearly the militia is the citizenry, and not state controlled.
Now on to Federalist #27 and the debate continues in regard to “Standing Armies” nothing pertinent to the current discussion but feel free to read it.
Now on to Federalist #28 and the debate continues in regard to “Standing Armies” and this is where Hamilton argues the people should rise against an unjust govt.

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state.
The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the state, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. The natural strength of the people in a large community, in proportion to the artificial strength of the government, is greater than in a small, and of course more competent to a struggle with the attempts of the government to establish a tyranny.

And that brings us up to the #29th, Class is dismissed for the weekend, be sure and study there may be a test next week ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 61 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/21/2009 10:16:54 AM
Oh contraire , class is not dismissed, for it is you that have taken out of context or perhaps even willfully misconstrued what is written to try and support an anti-gun belief. Pay attention I'd hate to lose you ....

If I may, in the federalist #29 the document as a whole speaks to the fact that a militia made up of the general populace is inadequate and incapable of being the primary military force of a nation. Thus the primary argument of Federalist #29 is for the creation of a “Standing Army”.


“"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss.”


And the fear of a “Standing Army” being able to force its will against the citizens, as long as said force is small in comparison to the general population and as long as that population is equally armed is being argued as to be impossible. So his belief that the people should be equally armed to any “Standing Army” is quite clear.


“This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.''


He also speaks to the folly of trying to use a citizen militia for all military matters. Again arguing for a “Standing Army”.

“ If there should be an army to be made use of as the engine of despotism, what need of the militia? If there should be no army, whither would the militia, irritated by being called upon to undertake a distant and hopeless expedition, for the purpose of riveting the chains of slavery upon a part of their countrymen, direct their course, but to the seat of the tyrants, who had meditated so foolish as well as so wicked a project, to crush them in their imagined intrenchments of power, and to make them an example of the just vengeance of an abused and incensed people? “


If I may now refer you back to the Federalist #28, I think the meaning here is also quite clear…

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.


Federalist #46 and again an argument for a national army as again the threat of it being used against the people is dismissed as next to impossible.

Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.


Also one should take into context the meaning of words 2 centuries’ ago. Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped." It does NOT refer to a professional army. The 18th century folks used the term "STANDING Army" to describe a professional army. THEREFORE, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped militia. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered by some superior entity.


But the federalist papers are hardly the only statements/writings of our founders about their belief in the need for a populace to remain armed.


George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime]. When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

Pretty clear what Washington thought.

What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- Thomas Jefferson Papers (C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson.

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p322.

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson, Bill for the More General diffusion of Knowledge (1778).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950).

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Quoting 18th Century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment Thomas Jefferson: (1764.)

And Jefferson, hell let’s just brand him a Radical Right Wing extremist, as he obviously didn’t trust a large central govt. to remain subservient to the people without the threat the people could overthrow said govt. if the need ever arose. Plus as the last quote makes vividly clear he feels very strongly in a right to personal self defense.

And next, I think it’s quite clear how Noah Webster felt about disarming a peoples.

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. the supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." -Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets to the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888).


As pointed out above but repeated here for clarity is James Madison.

"(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -James Madison. (Federalist Paper #46)


Next we have Alexander Hamilton, his sentiments seem clear enough.

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton,

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government..."-Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist (#28).


Now I could go on & on, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, & Samuel Adams to name but just a few more, but I think the founding fathers thoughts are clear enough on the subject for most reasonable people, so now let’s look at the statements of those who may not have the public welfare in mind.



"We are taking the law and bending it as far as we can to capture a whole new class of guns." - Jose Cerada, (White House official who specializes in gun control policy), The Los Angeles Times
"Gun registration is not enough. Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal." - Janet Reno
"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.
Charles Shumer: (US Congress, has sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution) "All we ask for is registration, just like we do for cars."
(Press conference, 1993, exact date being sought)
Diane Feinstein: "US Senator, If I could have banned them all- 'Mr. and Mrs. America turn in your guns' -I would have!"
(Statement on TV program 69 Minutes, Feb 5 1995)
Bill Clinton: "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
Bill Clinton: (US President, has sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution, (not to violate it, criticize it, and belittle it)) "When we got organized as a country, [and] wrote a fairly radical Constitution, with a radical Bill of Rights, giving radical amounts of freedom to Americans, it was assumed that Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly...When personal freedom is being abused, you have to move to limit it." (April 19 1994, on MTV)

The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake." Malcolm Wallop former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)


You read the above and again reasonable people should conclude our founders were right, and these are our Elected reps, let’s look at a few more shall we …



Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead." (Chancelor's Speech, 1935)
Adof Hitler: "The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subject peoples to possess arms. So let's not have any talk about native militias." (Hitler's Secret Conversations, 1941-44, Farrar, Strauss and Young, 1953)
Mao Tse Tung: "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)
Vladimir I. Lenin "One man with a gun can control 100 without one. ... Make mass searches and hold executions for found arms." --V.I. Lenin.
Joseph Stalin "If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves." --Joseph Stalin.
Mahatma Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
("Gandhi, an Autobiography," M.K. Gandhi, 446)


Now I am under no impression that my arguments will have convinced or persuaded any of you, since it is clear that most of you are not here to discuss or debate but to simply push an agenda, reasonable people who look upon the body of evidence our founding fathers left us are able to easily see they had every intention of allowing us to remain armed as a final check against a tyrannical govt. coming to power in this country. As further evidence of our individual right to be armed I submit the following:
If our govt. could have figured out a way to take our guns (as yours have) don’t you think they would have done so by now ?


I am done except to leave you with one of my favorite quotes …..
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 49 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/20/2009 12:04:18 PM

So, the right to bear arms (as SPECIFICALLY stated in the ammendment) was for a purpose which has passed. These are your own words.


No, those were hardly my words, but nice try at twisting them. As you’re not from around these parts, perhaps a bit of American history would help.

“One aspect of the gun control debate is the conflict between gun control laws and the alleged right to rebel against unjust governments. Some believe that the framers of the Bill of Rights sought to balance not just political power, but also military power, between the people, the states and the nation,[44] as Alexander Hamilton explained in 1788:
[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude[,] that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.[45][44] “
“Some scholars have said that it is wrong to read a right of armed insurrection in the Second Amendment because it is clear that the founding fathers sought to place trust in the power of the ordered liberty of democratic government versus the anarchy of insurrectionists.[46][47] Other scholars, such as Glenn Reynolds, contend that the framers did believe in an individual right to armed insurrection. The latter scholars cite examples, such as the Declaration of Independence (describing in 1776 “the Right of the People to … institute new Government”) and the New Hampshire Constitution (stating in 1784 that “nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind”).[48]“
And the debate continues to this day ……
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


Obviously "the People" need to have thermal nuclear devices, since the government does.

Pistols aren't going to stop the army - you need the "right" to have RPG's, landmines, fighter jets, surface to air missiles.

To stop the government you need the armament to fight them.


Nice of you to play along … and if you read the above words by Alexander Hamilton, that is exactly what he had in mind.

Of course our founding fathers could have hardly envisioned thermonuclear devices … “Shall we Play a Game”
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 43 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/20/2009 10:26:41 AM
Come on now, can’t you folks do better than that ?

Really, I keep holding out hope for the next generation, but responses like this just show a lack of effort.
[Quote] Let's see, hmmm...

JFK
Lincoln
Archduke Franz Ferdinand


JFK : In a motorcade on the way to and from a political event, not actually at one, assassinated, still believed by a majority of Americans to be a conspiracy.
Lincoln: At the theater, not a political event, before the age of the Secret Service, assassinated by a southern sympathizer as part of a conspiracy to decapitate the govt.
Archduke Franz Ferdinand: You’re kidding right ? You had to go all the way back to 1914 and a foreign country, and again find someone riding in a motorcade and assassinated by conspirators.

Ok all three of the above are wild flights of fantasy to even try and compare them to the current town hall protests.
Hell, If you’d put just a little effort into it you could have at least come up with the Assassination of President McKinley, or instead of JFK how about RFK, not that those still wouldn’t be stretches of the imagination, by they would have been slightly better.

Seriously you pick the one thing out of my entire post you feel you can actually make some kind of point about and you flub it that bad ….


Now try and name a single political event where some civilian saved the day by bringing a gun.

While not a political event, the first thing that comes to mind is Charles Whitman the University of Texas tower gunman.
“Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities and “civilians” who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police. Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit.”
Of course this took place before all these stupid gun free zones popped up everywhere, but that’s another discussion. (Google Texas tower sniper for more)


It's dangerous, selfish, and stupid to carry a gun in a crowd in a position where some other nut could easily wrestle the gun away and go on a rampage.

This must be a reoccurring nightmare for the anti-gun crowd, as I have seen this or similar phrase’s used several times in different reports concerning the armed protesters, now seriously I want to see a show of hands from those of you willing to try and take an AR-15 away from its owner, go ahead, come on, anybody ?


This quote has become the motto for many, even Tim McVeigh found inspiration in it. Remember Tim McVeigh?

Ahh yes, Timothy McVeigh, the lefts favorite boogieman when they need to trot out some example of right wing Christian terrorists, what was Hitler not available ?
And actually you need to do a bit more research, as he wasn’t even aware there was a daycare in the building, and targeted it simply for revenge for the Waco deaths of women and children two years before.

But I digress, the above and the inevitable fact that nut cases like to wrap themselves up in a cloak of morality by using past quotes and or ideas of righteousness to justify their actions does in and of itself not negate the meaning of Jefferson’s original words, nor does it negate the second amendments true purpose which is to place a check on our Govt. by giving the people the ability to change said Govt. if ever deemed necessary, and the people carrying these weapons to the town halls are simply reminding our elected officials of that right.


No, this is not what is happening. If this were true, then these same people would have been protesting for (at least) the last eight years, but we didn't see any Fox-organized "Tea Parties" back then. Trying to claim that this is some kind of bipartisan uprising is absurd.

What, you’ve never heard the old saying, “The Straw that broke the Camel’s back.”
Fox-organized "Tea Parties" really, you should put down the Kool-Aid, it's poison.

There are actually many examples of Obama reversing Bush's policies

Really ? Last I heard Gitmo is still open, & they’re still trying to define torture (and it ain’t a little water being poured on your head) Also I was more implying things that somehow actually trampled on “OUR” rights as the other poster had implied, but hey thanks for throwing those red herrings out there.


In regards to the financial bailout, Obama has actually been continuing the trend started by Bush.

By George I think he’s got it, THAT’S THE PROBLEM the Govt. is BROKE, we can’t afford any more bailouts, stimulus programs or massive Govt. run entitlements.


Are we all supposed to forget that it was the Bush administration, with the help of a Republican-controlled Congress, which saw the largest increase in the national debt? & who signed the prescription drug bill in 2003 (after lying about how much it would cost)?

By all means, let’s give credit where credit is due shall we ….

President Obama has framed his budget as a break from the "failed policies" of the Bush Administration. Actually, his budget doubles down on President George W. Bush's borrow, spend, and bailout policies. For example:
President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
President Bush began a string of expensive financial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
President Bush created a Medicare drug entitlement that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new govern¬ment health care fund.
President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. President Obama would double it.
President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already increased this spending by 20 percent.
President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.
President Bush ran budget deficits averaging $300 billion annually. After harshly criticizing Bush's budget deficits, President Obama proposed a budget that would run deficits averaging $600 billion even after the economy recovers and the troops return home from Iraq.
The President's tax policy is the only sharp break in economic policy. President Bush reduced taxes by approximately $2 trillion; President Obama has proposed raising taxes by $1.4 trillion. In doing so, President Obama has rejected the most successful Bush fiscal policy. In the 18 months following the 2003 tax rate cuts, economic growth rates doubled, the stock market surged 32 percent, and the economy created 1.8 million jobs, followed by 5.2 million more jobs in the next 27 months. Not until the housing bubble burst several years later did the economy finally lose steam.
http://www.heritage.org/research/budget/bg2249.cfm


And yes, Congress "controls" spending, but to imply that it does so in a vacuum, without any influence from the WH (and special interests) is overly simplistic, if not disingenuous.
At least on this we agree, How about we also agree they listen to everyone but us the taxpayer.

The fact of the matter is that these protesters are showing up carrying guns to political events that have nothing to do with gun rights, and in some cases carrying signs with not-so-veiled references to violent revolution.
I think that’s the point they are trying to make, it’s time for Congress to listen to us, not the lobbyists, or the special interest groups, but us the American citizen.

they're trying to make the President look weak on the world stage.
This really isn’t about the President, and I don’t think it would have mattered who was elected, it’s congress not listening to us that is the problem. But since you mentioned it, our current President, doesn’t need any help looking weak on the world stage, he did that on his own with his apology tour.

Basically maybe you should know something about another country before you make broad assumptions about how other people feel.

Actually Chuck, I couldn’t care less how you folk north of the border think or feel, now the day you live here, pay taxes here, and vote here, I might but till then ….

Yes, it sent the message that the far right can rely on manufactured phony outrage every time they lose an election.

Excuse me? were you still living in your mom’s basement in 2000 & 2004 after those elections ? And was your TV broke or just not getting good reception down there at the time to have missed the “phony outrage of the left” ?

And yet they put up with it every time the Republicans hold the majority. Go figure.

Probably because Republicans for all their faults don’t try and shove socialism down our throats.

Don't you just love when faux 2nd amendment argument has a statment about what the founding fathers intended and remain ignorant of the term"regulated" within it?

Don’t you just love when anti-gunners try to reinterpret the second amendment to assume some sort of Govt. requirement completely ignoring the facts of the time period ( I.E. no standing army ) and the actual written words “the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” So is it the words “the right of the People”, or “shall NOT be infringed” that cause so much confusion for you folks ?
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 26 (view)
 
Man carries assault weapon outside Obama speech venue
Posted: 8/19/2009 12:46:16 PM
Man where to begin ….

First, for you folks not in the U.S. I think you’re just jealous you don’t have the same rights we do, and since you know you will never get your rights back you want to see us lose ours.
Of course we here in the U.S. will actually fight to keep our rights unlike …. well, that’s another discussion.

As for my so called fellow Americans …. I’m ashamed of you.

The Man with the AR, was simply carrying a sign, a sign that got more attention than any other sign he could have carried, perhaps you & our left wing media didn’t understand what he and the others that were also carrying weapons are saying, but I’ll bet our politicians did. (apparently this was organized by a radio station and a couple of Independents/Libertarians, still it sent a message.

Now, on to a few things I noticed …

[Quote] Cute. Very cute. Because they can.
But, But that’s the “O’s” slogan isn’t it ? “Yes We Can”

Wonder why the NRA did not return calls for comment?

And what would you have them say that wouldn’t be twisted and misrepresented by our media in some way.


I wonder if the gun nuts even care that Obama supported the Supreme Court ruling overturning the DC gun ban?

So nice of you to think of your fellow citizens as “Gun Nuts” I hope you never need a man with a gun to save you’re a$$ some day.
And as for the “O” and his thoughts on the DC gun ban, …

But the campaign of Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama said that he "believes that we can recognize and respect the rights of law-abiding gun owners and the right of local communities to enact common sense laws to combat violence and save lives. Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional."

In other words he believes the DC gun ban, which prevents people from exercising their second amendment rights is constitutional, so I’m not sure how you interpret that to him supporting the Supremes over turning the Ban.


The pride the Clown in NH had was scary............. Water with Blood?

You sir should pick up a history book, his sign was but a part of a quote by Thomas Jefferson, you know, Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, Our 3rd President, perhaps you’ve heard of him ? Allow me to assist you with your edification …

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."



I don't care what color a persons skin is carrying weapons to town hall meetings will end up in tragedy

Chicken Little ran around squawking “The Sky is falling, The Sky is falling “ but wait, nothing happened, oh dear now what ???

this is just another scare tactic to discourage freedom of speech

No, actually this is called freedom of speech.


I wouldn't say it with any certainty, but the addition of fire arms to an already emotionally charged situation is usually not a positive event.

I’m pretty “Positive” people are noticing ….


I'm not sure what their point is

Then you’re not paying attention …..

, for one, would not feel safer seeing people around me who were carrying guns. I already imagine that there are people with concealed guns, and that doesn't make me feel any safer, either.

From what I have seen, only the anti-firearm mainstream media and gun control advocates are up in arms. What I’ve see in every photo posted is that other citizens stood right beside the armed demonstrators, apparently unafraid and unconcerned.


Many things are not against the law. It doesn't mean that it isn't a little worrying.

I’m not worried, but maybe it’s time our politicians started to be …

There is a great deal of history of guns and political events not ending well.

How about naming one ??? Just one please if you don’t mind, and we will go from there ….

Apparently not allowing fire code violations and not meekly accepting being shouted down by right wing extremists is now "violating the constitution."
Over 1,000 St. Louis Tea Party Taxpayers showed up at the Russ Carnahan town hall meeting in South St. Louis. But They were Locked Out !
At the same time The Carnahan staff was sneaking in SEIU members in the side door marked "handicapped." Here is the Google link watch as many as you want.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Russ+Carnahan+town+hall+meeting+&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
And then at other events Union members were bused in from as far away as 100 miles …. And people weren’t supposed to get upset ???


People who're deranged ..

Let’s just stop right there … now let us look to the left for deranged shall we…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Republican_National_Convention_protest_activity#Protest
On the first day of the convention, a group of protesters stood in front of approximately 30 to 40 delegates from Connecticut in an attempt to prevent them from entering the convention. Paramedics had to treat 83-year-old member of the delegation for breathing problems when his credentials were ripped from his neck by a protester.[49] Additionally, a black bloc smashed windows of downtown businesses, smashed windows and slashed the tires of several police cars, lit one police car on fire, and used a garbage dumpster as a battering ram against another.[49] About 12 protesters were arrested …

And How about ….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Republican_National_Convention_protest_activity
Over 1800 individuals were arrested by the authorities, a record for a political convention in the U.S. [1] However 90% of those charges were eventually dropped.

Now I could continue all the way back to 1968, but no need is there, my point is Compared to .. “No crimes were reportedly committed by the gun totters, nor was anyone arrested at the protest.” I think we know which side is actually capable of “Peaceful Protest” don’t we.


Maybe they should leave the guns and the hanging effigies at home when they stand up for themselves.

You first, I think I saw Pres Bush or Vice Pres Cheney hung in effigy at every left wing protest to take place for 8 yrs solid.


Which rights have you lost in the past 8 months and why didn't the idea strike you back when the previous resident was busy destroying due process?
It’s the gradual loss of rights over the last 200 years under both Republicans and Democrats that have people upset.


Because apparently it was okay for a Republican to trample all over our civil rights and spend money like a drunken sailor.

And exactly what policies implemented by the Bush administration has the Obama admin actually rescinded ??? And Obama has made a drunken sailor look thrifty, by comparison, but after all it is congress that controls spending (High School Govt. 101) and who’s been in charge for the last couple of years ???


The dumbing down of America--on televisions and town halls everywhere.

You’re Right, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, NPR, & others are certainly doing a good job …..


Anyway, "rights" notwithstanding....people need to figure out that having the "right" to do something doesn't mean that you aren't an ***hole for doing it.
I’m sure if I exercised my right to free speech and you were around to hear my thoughts, you would consider me an A$$hole. So it then becomes a simple matter of opinion.


NO ONE was close enough to protest..... Screened Town Halls ............

What ? you seriously think the “O” didn’t have handpicked crowds at his town hall meetings last week ? see here boy, now you can’t possibly be that naive can you ??


Doesn't anyone give the American people credit for having a brain and using it. This is not a Republican or Democrat problem here, this is an American problem. People are getting tired of all this bullcrap in the government and are now expressing it. They are mad at both parties and the Congress needs to wake up and listen to us the American people and what we are saying and quit blaming it on the RNC or DNC it’s both & it’s neither, hell it’s our fault collectively, after all we get the Govt. we are willing to put up with.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 19 (view)
 
Democrats trying for GOP support for clunker funds
Posted: 8/13/2009 6:29:15 AM
So people may not have purchased the MOST gas efficient vehicles, but they're getting a minimum 2mpg improvement in their gas milage. So whats the issue again?


Well Chuckie, the issue is a 2mpg improvement is hardly a wise use of my tax dollars.

The company I work for just went and traded one of our older fleet trucks for a new one under the cash for clunkers program, I must say, what a warm fuzzy feeling I got upon learning that a multimillion dollar a year company was subsidized with my tax dollars so they could buy a new truck.

Someone needs to remind me to go home and thank my 11 year old son for helping to subsidize with his future tax dollars, multimillion dollar companies getting new trucks, for a whopping 2 mpg increase in fuel economy.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 10 (view)
 
Need Guys Perspective
Posted: 8/12/2009 11:18:07 AM
I’m going to suggest something nobody else here has for your lack of luck.

From your profile …..


I have never been married, don't have any kids, and am still single because I have been very career-driven.


For some guys in your age group, that literally screams ticking biological clock.

Anyway that’s my theory,
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 67 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 2:49:14 PM

You might want to check this out

http://www.citizencorps.gov/


Actually I saw that and another article from the same time period implied T.I.P.S. was to be a part of the Citizen Corps once in acted, but I didn’t want this thread to go off topic once again ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 64 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 2:23:49 PM

Republicans aren't about truth or rights. Which is why the government wanting to know about misinformation campaigns is snitching while this domestic spying program was a-ok


Wow, Chuckie way to spin things, sh!t to hear you say it you would have thought this was an actual policy or program, now how about a little fact to go with your fiction …


Both Congressional Representative****Armey (Republican, Texas) and Senator Patrick Leahy (Democrat, Vermont) raised concerns. Senator Leahy said that it was similar to J. Edgar Hoover's misuse of the FBI during the 1960s when Hoover hired citizens to spy on neighbors who were political protesters. Rep. Armey included legislation in the House's Homeland Security Bill that explicitly prohibited the creation of Operation TIPS; but Joe Lieberman blocked the program's removal from the Senate version of the bill. The Senate, however, essentially passed the House version that eliminated the program. [9]
Operation TIPS was officially cancelled when the Homeland Security Act was passed by Congress in November 2002. Section 880 explicitly prohibited the program

For those that need it pointed out The Republicans were in charge with a majority in the Senate at the time, in short this was a bad idea that never came to be and was stopped by the “Republican led Senate”.

[Quote] That my friends is a snitch program.
Correct, that’s why it never came into being, but then if you had read the whole page you sited you already knew that ….

Unlike what is happening now.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 57 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 12:23:54 PM

I've read it a couple of times and I still don't see it.


Then you should try reading it with your eyes open,

These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation.


The words “casual conversation” can only really relate to friends, neighbors, coworkers, brick walls or folks like you, but then I repeat myself.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 67 (view)
 
On The Rebound?
Posted: 8/11/2009 10:08:56 AM

The Buy US was pulled from the Bill by the Free Traders......


No it was pulled so we (THE US) didn’t get sued by the WTO …It is a violation of the World Trade Organization rules to enact a public subsidy program and skew it toward only domestically produced products,


All those working in the Southern plants are NON Union....

Yes, but they are also foreign owned plants, so once the workers are paid (which admittedly is a good thing) the bulk of any profits, and our tax dollars (cash for clunkers) go overseas to Japan & Korea.


This is really helping the Middle Class... working person

Sure it’s helping those middle class folks working in those plants, and the people that could afford to take advantage of this program perhaps, but what happens when ….

Car Sales dry up in the next quarter because future sales have been cannibalized.

Used vehicle inventories are hurt by a lack of products, thus hurting those people who no matter what simply cannot afford a new car..

People trying to keep older cars running will face a shortage of second hand parts.

Both of the above are subject to the law of supply and demand, so prices will go up for the remaining used vehicles & the parts to service those vehicles, thus in turn hurting poor people.

So while things may look good in the short term, as typical when the Govt. messes with free trade, there will be consequences in the long term …
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 45 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:40:09 AM

Foreign aid is NOT a vehicle for imposing your own values on others.


Yes it is, it is used as a carrot and or a stick in all sorts of situations. AS IT SHOULD BE !!!


Either give it or don't.


That would work for me, as I’m pretty sure we could use the money here at home right now.


It is the epitome of right-wing hubris to think that your "generosity" somehow gives you command over the lives and actions of the recipient.


It is the epitome of left-wing hubris to think that our "generosity" should come with no strings attached and that recipients should be allowed to use my tax money for whatever they want.


It is one of the hallmarks of utter selfishness and abject egotism to try and use "charity" as blackmail.


Blackmail is hardly the correct term, though I can see the appeal to the left, since it’s more sensational sounding, how about we call it conditional which would be much more truthful.


This would be no different than donating to the United Way but trying to tell them they can only use the money to help people who you approve of.


Oh but it is different, I can choose to donate to the United Way or not based on their past use of contributions, or their statements on how they will use any new contributions. My Govt. sending my and others tax dollars abroad without us actually having a choice in the matter is very different.
And my tax money should indeed be sent to help others with restrictions and or conditions attached to how it is spent or it should not be sent at all.


But …. None of this has anything to do with this original thread, so to try and put it back on topic …

In the news today …. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/10/AR2009081002743_pf.html

The Obama administration is proposing to scale back a long-standing ban on tracking how people use government Internet sites with "cookies" and other technologies, raising alarms among privacy groups.
"Snip"
Some privacy groups say the proposal amounts to a "massive" and unexplained shift in government policy. In a statement Monday, American Civil Liberties Union spokesman Michael Macleod-Ball said the move could "allow the mass collection of personal information of every user of a federal government website."


Hold on folks, this ride is getting more interesting everyday ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 40 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 7:24:40 AM
And your sources are ... ????

Once More ...

The President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, commonly known as PEPFAR, is the largest commitment to HIV/AIDS prevention, care and treatment by any government or private entity in history.

And yet people will still complain that there are some restrictions on how the money is spent, perhaps they would prefer “NO MONEY” therefore no restrictions, or even better how about you get “YOUR” Govt. to give “YOUR” tax dollars to some organization that can then spend that money any way it wishes.

Back at you .....
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 65 (view)
 
On The Rebound?
Posted: 8/11/2009 7:21:19 AM

Cash for clunkers did two things. ….


Oh it did more than that, don’t forget to consider it was a payoff to the UAW for help getting the “O” elected.

And it was supposed to be a way of throwing more of our tax dollars at the auto companies without pissing us off.

It was also a bone thrown to the environmentalists I.E. get a few thousand gas guzzlers off the roads for good.

The Department of Transportation reports that the ten leading trade-ins are all American branded cars.


And of course we shouldn’t overlook the help to the Japanese auto companies since more foreign cars have been sold.

while six of the top ten new cars purchased - and four of the top five - are foreign.


DOT reports that the following are the ten top trade-ins, all American:
1. Ford Explorer
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 WD
4. Jeep Cherokee 4 WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
6. Chevrolet Blazer 4 WD
7. Ford Explorer 2 WD
8. Ford F150 Pickup 4 WD
9. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2 WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van

Top Ten New Car Purchases: Cash for Clunkers:
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Ford Focus FWD
3. Honda Civic
4. Toyota Prius
5. Toyota Camry
6. Ford Escape FWD
7. Hyndai Elantra
8. Dodge Caliber
9. Honda Fit
10. Chevrolet Cobalt

So Obama can boast of a great success in taking American cars off the road and replacing them with foreign cars.
Great going!


If we want to create long term demand we need to place import tariffs on car manufacturers that are building over seas and shipping to the USA


First off most of the foreign cars in North America are “assembled here” from parts that are both manufactured here and abroad, oddly enough when you talk about importing complete cars it is a couple of American cars that are actually imported that first come to mind. (I’m sure there are others) The Pontiac GTO, and G8 are in reality made in Australia by Holden Motors (A GM subsidiary ) and rebadged as Pontiacs for sale in the US.

Oh and there is also this minor detail ..

It is a violation of the World Trade Organization rules to enact a public subsidy program and skew it toward only domestically produced products,



First it brought demand for new cars foreward into the current quarter. That is, it got people to buy new cars today instead of next quarter or year. Second, it allowed car companies to more rapidly work off excess inventory.



Without knowing present inventory levels and what the companies normally keep in inventory it's impossible to make the statement above, so what are your sources?

CNNMoney.com - ‎Aug 3, 2009‎
GM's inventory is at an historic low of 466000 cars and trucks, a 76-day's supply of vehicles, the company said Monday. Ford's reported inventory is less than a 50-days supply.
Not hard to find this info …


I think we will know more by years end as to whether or not this really helped.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 38 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/11/2009 6:15:48 AM

Unfortunately he did this by requiring most of the money go to programs that were a complete waste of time, abstinence only.


Just curious Chuckie ??? Do you ever check anything for accuracy or do you just spew talking points and then move on when confronted with the truth …

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Global_AIDS_programs_(U.S.)

PEPFAR prioritizes resource-limited countries with high HIV/AIDS prevalence rates. The 15 current "focus countries" include Botswana, Cote d'Ivoire, Ethiopia, Guyana, Haiti, Kenya, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Vietnam, and Zambia. While most of the $15 billion for this program will be spent on these focus countries, $4 billion is allocated for programs elsewhere, and for HIV/AIDS research. (The other $1 billion is contributed to the Global Fund, see below).

Prevention
To slow the spread of the epidemic, PEPFAR supports a variety of prevention programs: the ABC approach (Abstain, Be faithful, and correct and consistent use of Condoms); prevention of mother to child transmission (PMTCT) interventions; and programs focusing on blood safety, injection safety, secondary prevention ("prevention with positives"), counseling and education.
20% of the PEPFAR budget is spent on prevention, with the remaining 80% going to care and treatment, laboratory support, antiretroviral drugs, TB/HIV services, support for orphans and vulnerable children (OVC), infrastructure, training, and other related services. Of the 20% spent on prevention, one third of the budget must be spent on abstinence-only campaigns, a controversial requirement (see below). The other two thirds is alloted for the widespread array of prevention interventions described above, including counseling, education, injection safety, blood safety and condoms.


Let’s repeat that .. 20% for prevention with 80% for treatment, with one third of the twenty percent I.E. roughly 6.5% of the total used for abstinence-only campaigns.

The President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, commonly known as PEPFAR, is the largest commitment to HIV/AIDS prevention, care and treatment by any government or private entity in history.

And yet people will still complain that there are some restrictions on how the money is spent, perhaps they would prefer “NO MONEY” therefore no restrictions, or even better how about you get “YOUR” Govt. to give “YOUR” tax dollars to some organization that can then spend that money any way it wishes.

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 2 (view)
 
Protective and over protective?
Posted: 8/7/2009 12:10:30 PM
Haven’t you ever heard the ole saying about getting back on the horse that threw ya ….

That’s exactly what you have to do, get back on the boat, get back on that tube, and not next summer, do it this or next weekend.

You cannot let fear stop you from living, you simply cannot fear life.

And yes get your daughter enrolled in swim lessons, they may well save her life one day.

And yes all of us worry about our kids, similar story here …I guess it was three years ago my son was 9, we were out riding a jetski, I decided to let him steer (I was teaching him to drive it) well he got us going a little too fast and tried to turn thus flipping us.
Now of course all this took place in mere seconds but at the time it felt as if it lasted longer than it’s taken to type all this out. Anyway ……
On my way back up to the surface of course I’m feeling all around for my child and can’t find him, don’t want to call it panic but a fear is certainly setting in, I break the surface and start looking around, nothing don’t see him anywhere, again the fear is rising, suddenly he breaks the surface as well just a few feet away, the look on his face is part scared to death and part damn that was cool let’s do it again, then he broke out into a big grin, and all the fear and anxiety was gone, he was OK and I was OK so we went back to shore with a new story to tell.

The only lasting fear from that experience was that he may purposely try and flip us the next time because he thought it was cool. I still can’t help but tell him to slow down before making a turn just to avoid getting flipped, but I’m not in fear of it. ( I expect it, but don't fear it)

Last summer he got thrown out of the tube and landed wrong, it hurt and he didn’t want to ride the tube anymore that day, now that didn’t stop him two weeks later, nope not at all, but the last thing he said to me before jumping in the water was ” Dad, .. slow down on the turns ..OK ?”

Now let me say one more time … TEACH YOUR KID TO SWIM … it is the one thing you can do as a parent that may well save their lives one day when you aren’t there.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Did their evil know no bounds?
Posted: 8/6/2009 10:46:15 AM

I don't think he is .................... Thats what makes me

Damn this is funny


I have to agree, but at least it sheds a bit of light on everything else this poster posts, oh and also on the folks that agree with him ….

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 10 (view)
 
Democrats trying for GOP support for clunker funds
Posted: 8/5/2009 2:20:12 PM

Are you being paid to spread mistrust, misiformation and distortions? How much does it cost to have you spread distortions and fabrications? Do people actually buy your spin?


Why good sir, I offer it as a free public service, to try and help my fellow citizens be informed and not be mislead by the spin being fed to them.
It’s my civic duty to do so ….


Go buy a new fuel efficient vehicle, open the windows and take a long relaxing ride you will feel better


Thanks, but no thanks for now, I’ll have to keep my big ole gas guzzling truck for the time being, as I have no interest in a Govt. Motors Truck.

 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 18 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/5/2009 2:09:31 PM

And in quotes below is what you call being asked to rat out your neighbor?

Let see shall we ….


“or through casual conversation”. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help


So if I am having a “casual conversation” (their exact words) with a friend, coworker or neighbor and I mention reading in the copy of HR3200 currently available about the “end of life counseling” and some of the other legal sleaze wording that implies Govt. sanctioned euthanasia (pages 425 thru 429) I suppose they can report me so someone from the White House or perhaps even an Acorn nut can drop by to help me out, as I’ve obviously misread something.

So…. Yes, strangely enough, that does sound like we are being asked to rat each other out. Perhaps you would like to “redefine” the words “casual conversation” for us ?? Or how about “we’re asking for your help” ??? Feel free to enlighten us as to what they really meant by that …..


Maybe he wants people to be able to make decisions based on facts not spin and speculation, why does that scare you so much?


Doesn’t scare us but it must scare him as he has employed a spin mister to try and tell us not to believe our own eyes when watching the “O” speak several years ago. It would seem that the “O” and all Dem’s like to hear themselves speak, unfortunately they don’t like having what they may have said in the past come back to contradict what they are saying today.


John Cornyn of Texas wrote US President Barack Obama.
"As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights," he wrote.


I’ll just have to write My good Senator and let him know I approve & I might just vote for him again, if he continues to act like this.

Come on folks, you’ve got to admit if the Bush admin had posted something like this, you people would be foaming at the mouth ……
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Should I move on from him?
Posted: 8/5/2009 8:53:40 AM
Since you’ve been out of it for awhile (I/E. recently divorced)…

It’s called “Dating” so feel free to “date” others yourself, and if he calls, go from there.

Or blow him off and risk maybe missing out on a possible good thing….. your choice.
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
 
White House wants you to be a snitch ….
Posted: 8/5/2009 7:32:02 AM
For years we had to listen to certain people scream that President was essentially a dictator and or was going to make himself one.

For years we had to listen to certain people scream about wiretaps, eavesdropping, the patriot act and how all our civil liberties were being usurped by the evil republicans’ in charge of our Govt.

Today or actually yesterday the White House under the “O” administration has called for people to rat out your friends and neighbors that may not agree with the idea of Obamacare.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.


Where are all the screaming minions that just knew America was going to be turned into a Fascist regime under Darth Cheny and the Bush administration, why aren’t people up in arms about this, does this not scare hell out of every single one of you !!!

Why is the silence deafening !!!!
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
 
Democrats trying for GOP support for clunker funds
Posted: 8/5/2009 7:12:59 AM

No benefit WORKING Americans ? Help for the Middle class?

People buying cars gain nothing Just Unions..........



Hey you caught on quick !! How many people bought cars ? What was the estimate, 157,000 transactions or cars sold, out of a country of 300 million, that would be what percentage ?? something along the lines of 0.5 percent or less.

Let’s see they (The Govt.) used my/our money, or actually my/our child’s/grandchild’s money to subsidize someone else’s car purchase, (socialism/spread the wealth) how did that help me or you ???

Did you buy a new car ???
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 5 (view)
 
Democrats trying for GOP support for clunker funds
Posted: 8/5/2009 6:30:01 AM
I read it, now substantiate it !!

That’s all people are asking, what’s wrong ? do we not have the right to question the ”O”

Plus it seems there are a lot of other questions ….


But some environmental and national security watchdogs are now arguing that the harm caused by destroying the used vehicles -- required by the government trade-in program -- may outweigh the benefits of exchanging pollution-spewing gas guzzlers for new, more efficient cars.


Ya don’t say, you mean there may well be long term consequences ????


Under the program, the government is advising car dealers to replace a trade-in's engine oil with a lethal sodium silicate solution and run the engine to ruin it before giving or selling the car to a scrap dealer.


“LETHAL” hey I’ll bet that’s good for the environment !


"Disposing of old products, a step required by most incentive and rebate programs, also has environmental costs," Gwen Ottinger, a researcher at the Chemical Heritage Foundation's Center for Contemporary History and Policy in Philadelphia, wrote in an opinion article published in The Washington Post on Tuesday.


Others say it also does nothing to reduce America's dependency on oil.


"Cash for clunkers is a historic mistake for America because it misapplies billions of taxpayer dollars to subsidize more fuel inefficient cars that are bad for our dependence on foreign oil and bad for the environment," said Edwin Black, author of "The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops -- or the Day Before."

You mean maybe the rebates should have been “only” for alternative fuel vehicles … Natural Gas, Electric, Hybrids, even flex fuel.

Right now all that can really be said is that the Unions, err I mean the auto industry got a billion dollar shot in the arm.

So if you would be so kind, I would like to know “YOUR” reason for thinking we need to rush right out and throw another billion or two in to a program that may or may not have actually been a good thing, please explain why waiting a few weeks or months to actually understand “ALL” of the consequences or repercussions from this initial program is such a bad thing.

I’m waiting ????
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 3 (view)
 
Democrats trying for GOP support for clunker funds
Posted: 8/4/2009 2:17:56 PM

another example of how the republican party is willing to do any thing to discredit the democratic party


Must be nice to live in a black & white world, where good vs evil is so clearly defined …

I really do not see in your example how republicans are causing a problem …


Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina predicted that the Senate will approve it. "


That’s sounds like a Republican for it …

But this would be …


Democrats Dianne Feinstein of California and Chuck Schumer of New York, and Republican Susan Collins of Maine, who had complained that smaller rebates of $3,500 were going to people buying new cars that get as little as 4 more miles per gallon than the gas-guzzlers they traded in.


Three Democrats against, and wanting to change the rules midstream … Hmmmmmmm ???

Granted Republicans have questions, as they should.


Many Republicans remained skeptical, raising objections to the additional costs amid questions about the management of the overwhelmed car rebate program. The GOP holdouts said the government has failed to provide enough data about how well the initial funding has worked and should wait until the fall to provide more.


As they should when they are spending MY money … But wait, apparently it is the White House causing the problems …


WASHINGTON – The Obama administration is refusing to quickly release government records on its "cash-for-clunkers" rebate program that would substantiate — or undercut — White House claims of the program's success, even as the president presses the Senate for a quick vote for $2 billion to boost car sales.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090804/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_cash_for_clunkers_transparency

It’s that transparency thing again ….

So this is what the GOP is actually saying …


Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky has argued against quick approval of $2 billion for the program because little is known about the first round of $3,500 and $4,500 rebates. "We don't have the results of the first $1 billion," McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said. "You don't have them. We don't have them. DOT doesn't have all of it. We'd hate to make a mistake on something like that."


Since they are spending our money, well actually they are putting it on our children’s & grand children’s credit cards so to speak, since the Govt. is broke, I don’t want them making a mistake either ….
 just_2_b_me
Joined: 6/22/2006
Msg: 40 (view)
 
What Would You Do?
Posted: 8/4/2009 1:00:26 PM
Oh I don’t know, I was a rebound once long ago, but I went into it knowing that, and knowing it may not last because of that.

But I thought she was worth the risk, and we had a great run for the year it did last.

And I had no regrets because at least we gave it a shot, on the other hand, had I not gone for it I would probably think back and regret it today, and wonder if perhaps she was the one that got away.
 
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