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 Author Thread: sex and the single mother
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 38 (view)
 
sex and the single mother
Posted: 10/12/2009 7:30:13 PM

1) Do you see a young single mother as being easy??
Well I do know she's not a virgin. Other than that, no.


2) Is it weird sleeping with a single mother
Nope.


3) Do you lose respect for single mother's who sleep with a man on the frist date
Not at all. I had one girl show up for our first date and say "well, no point playing hard-to-get, the dress I'm wearing should tell you that you are getting lucky" (in her defence, we had been talking for a week or so online/on th phone).

I was with her for about a year. I would have kept her permentanty if she had desired (even she doesn't know why she ended it, and we are still friends. She ended up with someone a lot like me).
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 46 (view)
 
Tennessee man accidentally killed via kinky bondage/cuckold fetish
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:26:57 PM
For some it's danger-play. They like the feeling of helplessness.
For others, it's the euphoria of oxygen deprivation (people have done this non-sexually for a high).
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Tennessee man accidentally killed via kinky bondage/cuckold fetish
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:27:18 PM
Replace this with any other scenerio for your answer.

Woman leaves her invalid husband in the (running) van in the hot summer / cold winter while she goes in for Yoga. The van stalls and he overheats / freezes.

Though titilating, that this was sex-related isn't very relevent.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 174 (view)
 
is kinky sex ds, bdsm, a bad thing
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:25:28 PM
One would need to define "bad" to have an answer.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 48 (view)
 
When does bondage cross the line from fun to scary?
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:23:41 PM
Not to inteject a boring response into the mirth:

Like any potentially risky activity, like sex itself (though most of us here are now practiced at that), BDSM something that should be undertaken after good communication. It's something that both parties, but especially the top, are responsable to make sure is safe and controlled.

Feeling scary can sometimes be the point (I've had more than one girl interested in scening with me based on my knife-work, which is intentionally scary); but it shouldn't actually be risky or traumatic. The point is for everyone to come out glad they did it.

The point where it becomes nerve-wraking for the bottom is the point where she looses trust, either in her partners ability or his intent. This is one of the things safe-words are for (the other is for communicating real danger or lack of consent).

A quick talk about safe words: They aren't always neccessairy.

That is to say: we already come with safe words "stop", "no", "don't". Custom words exist for play where these words may be used insincerely, or minimally where they are intended to convey a feeling but not a loss of consent (forceplay). A safeword becomes a safety feature.

When someone is unable to speak, it's usually a physical act. For things other than complex bondage, "tapping out" (as is done by wrestlers) is an option. For intense bondage work, the most common I've seen / done is to give an object to let go of.

But *very* important is for the top to be keeping a careful eye and good communication. I tend to work up to harder play as I know the person and her limits. In all my years, I've never had a safe word called on me, and there's only been one instance where my partner should have (I even stopped play twice to ask if she was OK, and she wanted to proceed, but I should have stopped it). Even then, no actual harm was done. Safety first.

(as an aside, there are some, particularly in the masochist community, who like to play until they safe: the game is basically "beat me despite me cursing you and telling you to stop, I'll safe when I'm really done, don't stop till them). I've not played with one of those in a long time.

Jerry
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 111 (view)
 
BONDAGE,AM I MISSING OUT????
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:12:57 PM
I see this thread has been resurrected from the dead.

To whomever. If you are interested and have a similarly interested partner, walk down to Barnes and Noble and grab a book like "Screw the Roses, Send me the Thorns", or most any guide to sex play and have some fun.

Be safe and the worst that happens is awkward sex.

If you lack an interested partner, or have tried the above and are interetsed in more adventerous activities still, I'd suggest seeking out someone in the life to offer specific advise. I';; be on and off the forums, but there are plenty of online and IRL BDSM communities always happy to help.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 33 (view)
 
Guys who have more than one profile
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:31:06 PM
If only it weren't against the rules.

Here's why I'd love to. I'm in the forums. As such, I've spoken with many people because of forums posts. Some of them were looking for intimate encounters. Suddenly I can't email any number of good long-term prospects because, though I've not emailed people to get an intimate encounter, I've emaild them none-the less.

Not to mention that getting pretty riled on one thread can result in your profile giving a myopic perspecitve of your interest. This site isn't really structured to accomidate people who are here for the forums *and* to see if the right person is out there.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 4 (view)
 
Is it just me
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:27:35 PM

Worst: seemingly good guy who ended up being married. Glad I found out early before anything progressed.
I've got a friend who's going back to the married guy (she broke up with him after a year when she found out he was married) because she's obsessed.

Sorry. Tangent.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 29 (view)
 
Anal Orgasm?????
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:26:39 PM
If your girl isn't already into it there are some clear steps to take.

Firstly, get her head in the right spot. If she doesn't an to do it, it's not likely to work. Incorporating butt play into things she already enjoys (cliteral or vagnial stimulation) are good.

Second, If she doesn't already enjoy anal a good bit, don't try most of this after a first orgasam. There's some clienching there that will make this more difficult the first few times.

Get her relaxed (a little wine helps), and excited. Start introducingthigs to her butt while you or she stimulates her to orgasam. It's about making the mental connection to pleasure and orgasam that both relaxes her and puts her mind in a good place to orgasam from anal.

The orgasams from it are intense and "different". Most girls who've had both don't strongly preference one over theo other in my experience; but i tend to date women with an "eager to please" menatality. So small differences in physical preference would tend to be ignored for my interest at the time.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 381 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:21:13 PM

Mind you this is my opinion. There is a pervasive mentality in our country that if something is broke - let's get government to fix it instead of taking personal responsibility for the problem.
Problem: There are criminals shooting people.

Response 1) We should arm ourselves to protect ourselves from them.
Response 2) We should implament stringent firearms regulation that disallows anyone legal access to firearms.

It seems to me that option 2, not option 1, is the option of "let someone else fix it". I think, and this is my opinion, you are drawing entirely the oppositie opinion of the one that makes sense.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 380 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:18:44 PM

But in refusing to accept that Canada, Sweden and New Zealand although they all have guns they also all have WORKABLE gun controls that prevent "people include the mentally retarded, criminally insane, convicts, or the otherwise irresponsible and unreliable citizens." from having easy access to firearms, you refuse to admit that there are infact some residents in the US that really shouldn't have guns
There are many residents of the US that should not be allowed firearms. I'm all for restricting firearms to the sane, law-abiding crowd. I think we should drastically improve our background checking system.

I also think what is most "moronic" (to use your phrase) is to project on someone else what you *think* they are arguing while calling them names. It makes you look pretty stupid when your straw man turns out entirely wrong.


despite your 2nd amendment
The second ammendment doesn't grant the right to handguns. It's an out-dated ammendment with no real place in modern society unless we are talking about assault rifles and materials for IEDs.


"Jerry the retard down the street" should be totting a .44 to school.
.44 is way over-penetrating. Any retard knows that. A .40 is a far better combination of an accurate manstopper. That's why most law enforcement standardized on it.


I don't think USA's weapons are entirely to blame for your massive murder rate, I think it's a combination of that and certain cultural factors. Also for somebody who is so studied, I think you mean Switzerland in regards to weapons ownership.
well. That's progress. Now show me anything to indicate it has any relation to the murder rate at all. And no "guns are used in murders" isn't useful unless you want to say that cars and knives and bats add to the murder rate and should be controlled.

You also ignored the temporal comment:
In the US, in 1900 there were few gun laws. New York had no handgun law and California no waiting period. Guns of all types could be ordered by mail or bought anonymously. And the homicide rate was 1.2, about one-sixth of what it is today.

And you ignored the apples-to-apples which can be seen *both* spacially (relative to the rest of the region, similar towns i nthe region, and similar towns in the country) and temporaly (pre 1982 vs post 1982)

Kenessaw GA made gun ownership manditory and *immediately* saw a 70% drop in violent crime. That's down-right unprescedented. *That* looks like a correlation to me.

You also failed to cite a reliable source for your Kennesaw statistics which are in direct disagreement with the official record (IOW: You are lying).

You failed to address that some crime rates (buglaries) are higher in Canada and the UK, even though it [buglaries] was a topic you brought up.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 345 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:39:28 PM

Your lying, New Zealand has about the same level of gun ownership as Canada.
New Zealand allows priveate firearms, inlcuding handguns. You have been advocating disallowing private firearms (saying only police shoule be allowed them). New Zealand therefore does not meet your criteria and yet has a very low homocide rate.

Of course, you singled out that example to the exlcusion of all the others which reenforce my point:
US. Yes firearms, yes high-murder.
Canada. No Firearms, no high-murder
Mexico. No firearms, yes high-murder
New Zealand. Yes Firearms, no high-murder.
Sweeden. Yes Firearms, no high-murder.

You also ignored the temporal comment:
In the US, in 1900 there were few gun laws. New York had no handgun law and California no waiting period. Guns of all types could be ordered by mail or bought anonymously. And the homicide rate was 1.2, about one-sixth of what it is today.

And you ignored the apples-to-apples which can be seen *both* spacially (relative to the rest of the region, similar towns i nthe region, and similar towns in the country) and temporaly (pre 1982 vs post 1982)

Kenessaw GA made gun ownership manditory and *immediately* saw a 70% drop in violent crime. That's down-right unprescedented. *That* looks like a correlation to me.

You also failed to cite a reliable source for your Kennesaw statistics which are in direct disagreement with the official record (IOW: You are lying).

You failed to address that some crime rates (buglaries) are higher in Canada and the UK, even though it [buglaries] was a topic you brought up.


If you can't tell why Mexico might not be a good country to compare too, you're beyond reason.
Well it's not in revolution and it's not third world. I suppose the major difference is the extreme crime rate.

You are saying that there a reason for the rate? I agree. It isn't guns.


Interestingly Japan has extreme gun restrictions, and it's crime rate is lower than any of the countries listed.
You are right. Gee, it must be the guns.

But wait: It's got a buglary rate 1/4 canada and 1/6 the UK, and it's assault rate is almost non-existant (in stark contrast to other countries you've identified as having good gun control: Canada, UK, NZ).

Gee... it might almost make an honest person think that the gun laws weren't the issue. It's almost like Japan's successful economy, limited class disparity, and honor-focued culture might have more to do with it. But that wouldn't support your "argument" so I suppose you'll ignore that too.

Tell me why Japan is a good comparison and Mexico isn't?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 344 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/3/2007 3:13:58 PM

I'll trust the FBI database and sociological research thanks. :)
I'm looking around for your FBI citation. I don't see any. I've supported my numbers. Support yours with more than rhetoric.


Also, there are other variables that occure between 1984 and 2005. Variables which occured in almost every city, state, and province in both Canada and USA.
Which relates to my listing of crom from 1981-1984 (the year of the gun law and after that) how?


Crime has been dropping for the last two decades. regardless of the status of firearms. (duh)
It's fluxuated yes. I still fail to see the relation?

Or are you saying that the US and Canada experienced a 70% drop in violent crime from 1981-1982 and then another 40% from 82-83 like Kennesaw did?

Kennesaw has the lowest instance of violent crime in Cobb County and consistantly has since 1982. It's also far below the national average for cities in general or for cities of its size.


http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm
What claim there disagrees with anything I've siad?


Hey here is an unbaised source which actually has the stats! Unlike your polemic.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita/AFR
Yes, I cited them several times in my previous post. It supports what I was saygin. From your linked page:

Burglaries (per capita) by country
United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
Canada: 8.94425 per 1,000 people
United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people

More burglaries (a crime you first mentioned) in the UK and Canada than in the US.


So we have a slightly higher burglary rate than you, and you have nearly 2 and a half times our murder rate. I'll take it thanks!
And your murder rate is 50% higher than New Zealand which doesn't prohibit firearms.

So let's see what that means.
US. Yes firearms, yes high-murder.
Canada. No Firearms, no high-murder
Mexico. No firearms, yes high-murder
New Zealand. Yes Firearms, no high-murder.
Sweeden. Yes Firearms, no high-murder.

So where's our correlation between homicide rate and firearms restrictions?

In the US, in 1900 there were few gun laws. New York had no handgun law and California no waiting period. Guns of all types could be ordered by mail or bought anonymously. And the homicide rate was 1.2, about one-sixth of what it is today.

So where's our correlation?

Kenessaw GA made gun ownership manditory and *immediately* saw a 70% drop in violent crime. That's down-right unprescedented. *That* looks like a correlation to me.

So again I'll ask: Where are the statistics that link crime rates to firearms control?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 330 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/2/2007 7:06:47 PM
So by arguing the details you agree it's a valid topic?

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

BTW, according to the Kennesaw Historical society, your burglary numbers are invented (http://www.mindspring.com/~robertcjones/khs/kennesaw20th/kennesaw20th.htm#_Toc140051562).

81 82 83 84
55 19 20 20

But hey, you got yours from a weblog that was full of sarcastic blather ("Next time it is repeated I suppose we will hear about how the the Kennesaw gun law caused the rate to become negative.") Yea. That's believeable.

From the city's official page: "Kennesaw once again was in the news on May 1, 1982, when the city unanimously passed a law requiring "every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition." After passage of the law, the burglary rate in Kennesaw declined and even today, the City has the lowest crime rate in Cobb County. " - http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/index.asp?nid=36

-----------------------------------

But let's talk US/Canada some more (while we are at it, I like Kennesaw), since you like it so much... since you brought up burglaries:

Canada and the UK have signifigantly more than the US (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita)

The overall Canadian burglary rate is higher than the American one, and a Canadian burglary is four times more likely (44% vs 13%) to take place when the victims are home. (See Lorne Gunter, Canadians Suffer As Much Crime As Americans, Edmonton J., Mar. 31, 1998 (International Crime Victimization Survey)) - http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm

"Compared with London, New York is downright safe in one category: burglary. In London, where many homes have been burglarized half a dozen times, and where psychologists specialize in treating children traumatized by such thefts, the rate is nearly twice as high as in the Big Apple. And burglars here increasingly prefer striking when occupants are home, since alarms and locks tend to be disengaged and intruders have little to fear from unarmed residents. " - See Kevin Heilliker, Pistol-Whipped: As Gun Crimes Rise, Britain Is Considering Cutting Legal a***nal, Wall St. J., Apr. 19, 1994, at A1. Many Americans might not find it intuitively obvious that New York City is a place where burglars need to fear armed residents. But the question is not whether New York City has a high rate of gun ownership compared to Texarkana (it does not), but whether New York City has a high rate of household gun ownership compared to London (it does). Although the New York City police licensing bureaucracy throws many obstacles in the way of a person who wants to own a handgun legally, it is relatively easy to obtain a permit to own a shotgun or rifle in New York City. In London, by contrast, legal ownership of any type of gun is very onerous. Moreover, New York City has a huge pool of unregistered firearms (up to three million by police estimates), most of which are potentially available to resist home invasions.

According to the CDC study (Robert M. Ikeda et al., Estimating Intruder-Related Firearms Retrievals in U.S. Households, 1994, 12 Violence and Victims 363 (1997)) There are over a half-million instances per year where a firearm scares off a burglar.

More property crime in the UK and Canada than in the US (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pro_cri_vic-crime-property-victims), lots more robberies in Canada and the UK than the US (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_vic-crime-robbery-victims)
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 67 (view)
 
what do you think of girls with tattoos
Posted: 5/2/2007 5:52:51 PM
I had a sub who had a tattoo on her lower back "so the guy I'm going down on has something to keep his eyes entertained". Though she sure as heck didn't need any ink to acomplish that.

The wrong ones, or too many, could be a turn off. The right ones can be a turn on.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 328 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/2/2007 5:51:22 PM

Pretty simple. Compare the US with any similar nation (average income, democratic system, level of urban vs rural, etc.). Then look at the level of gun violence in the US compared to that country.
That's a snipe hunt. No such place exists.

Russia, South Africa, Ukrane, Georgia? Why only the US? The Swiss with 7 million people have hundreds of thousands of fully-automatic rifles in their homes and the Israelis, until recently, have had easy access to guns. Both countries have low homicide rates. What about New Zealand, with more than a million guns and a very low homicide rate? Why are you ignoring all the counter-examples?

Wouldn't a better comparison be apples-to-apples. Look at a given area where gun control rules changed, perferrably only in part, and see what the effect was on both parts.

The clearest example I can think if was Kennesaw GA, as other Atlanta suberbs didn't enact similar laws and the as the difference was so profound. Can you think of some examples where cities, or states bordering other states, changed gun control laws and had a disproportionate change? Certainly isn't limited to the US.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 324 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/2/2007 3:36:57 PM
If someone did I missed it. Is there anyone who has tied firearm ownership to an increase in crime or firearm restrctions to a decrease?

Sseriously. Does anyone in the anti-gun position have real and *relevent* data?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 89 (view)
 
Bisexual woman, what's up?
Posted: 5/1/2007 5:30:05 PM

First of all , most women don't claim to be Bi- to turn men on; they do it because they are truly attracted to women.
I don't think I'm willing to accept "most" without some sort of real survey.

In my experience, most of the bi women I know are "mostly hetero". They form relationships with men and like to play around with women. It's a group that's very much looked down upon by, for example, the lesbian community.

Let's face it, bisexual women are in fashion... there was a time when male bisexuality was in fashion (many of them, the golden age of Greece, the golden age of Rome, the Renissance, etc) and many men were bisexual on the same grounds.

Heck, there are even terms to describe certain "like girls for reasons other than I like girls" such as the "Lesbian Until Graduation" thing in college.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 86 (view)
 
Bisexual woman,what's up?
Posted: 5/1/2007 4:35:28 PM

Its an ego issue but to each their own..I have heard of guys who found their partners were bi and active...and felt betrayed...and others who well they asked if they could join..
If I found out someone I thought I was in a closed relationship with as having sex with another person, I would feel betrayed.

When I've been in a relationship that was open, or a closed one that my partner talked to me about adding someone to, that was different.

Whether it feels like a betrayal depends on whether I was actually betrayed.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 129 (view)
 
Who dominates in your bedroom?????
Posted: 5/1/2007 1:07:52 PM

Now doesnt that depend on your perspective...a sub is allowing her/himself to be dominated right? so arent they in charge?
There's no single answer to that.

Certianly the person asking is in the submissive posture. That's likely why it's normal for a sub to ask for a collar rather than a dom to ask to caller a sub. It also adds another reason for obligitory compliance... not simply that the sub complying is submissive, but because the dom asking would have been submissive.

In that respect, the dom is in the dominant position as he isn't asking.

There's the control aspect from the ability to say "no" (call safe anways). Certainly the subhas that, but so does the dom. So I would conclude that dominance was shared there.

Finally: the one who can walk away controls the deal. That's all up to the individuals... how strong their need for each other is and how much that need weighs with their need to have the relationship on their terms.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 300 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/1/2007 11:48:21 AM

Maybe it says a lot about the US Army and the US Police that American's are so keen to keep their guns.
That would be the police that stopped the tranist bombings in London? The same police that is why "London Gang" is an oxymoron. The same police and army that made sure there was never a problem with the IRA?

Give me an armed police officer at my side 7x24 and I'll have no use for a firearm (other than "they are fun to shoot"). Otherwise, as someone who has done police work, I'll tell you that the job of the ppolice is to catch criminals. We don't stop crime... at best we prevent it from being performed again by the same person
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 299 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/1/2007 11:44:29 AM

When people can't win an arguement they start using logical fallacies. This is called. A loaded question. You are attempting to frame a question in such a way that there is no actual answer.
Of course, you failed to point out an actual false presupposition in "Is it common or uncommon" because your comment is a red herring (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html)


Simply that common and uncommon is relative. In the USA gun violence is relatively common. The solution for gun violence probably is not more crime.
And that would be a straw-man (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html) as I never said "the solution for gun violence is more crime" nor anything to that effect.


No, this is an arguement that possession of firearms doesn't mitigate sexual assault (because they're about equal in both countries)
A post or two ago you said that you can't draw real comparisons because the reporting and criteria are different. You are now relying on drawing a comparison you called impossible. This is a real trend in your postts on this thread.


however homicide (specifically using guns) is MUCH more common in your country.
You have two homicide numbers to discuss. Actual rate and percent with firearms.

A greater percentage of homicides in the US are committed with firearms. A greater precentage of homicides in Canada are committed with knives. Unless you are going to argue that Canada has poor knife control and knives should be outlawd, this is quite irrellevent.

There is a greater homicde rate in the US than in Canada. You've completely failed to show that this has anthing at all to do with the ownership of firearms. Such a claim is contra-indicated by both your own method of random comparison (Switzerland has a lower homicide rate than you do) and by a more apples-to-apples comparison (Kennisaw GA had a 70% drop in violdent crime in two years after instituting manditory firearms ownership while the surrounding areas did not... this disparity has been mainained for decades now).


The arguement is guns arn't helping protect your people, they're just making it easier to kill each other.
But your support is entirely non-existant.

We know that firearms prevent more than a million crimes a year in the US. We have the stats on it. We know that firearms are involved in many crimes as well. We don't know if a given crme would have occurred regardless of the firearm.

70% of Canada's murders occur with no help from a firearm. They are certinaly not a neccessity.

An even bigger issue is your actual posting. You have been flip-flopping into mutually exclusive postions to try to support a dishonest argument. Whether the effect of outlawing firearms would be benifical or baneful, youve made such an awful argument that I suspect that you are actuall pusing people away from your position.

You want to say that firearms are the cause of a higher crime rate in the US? Support it; because right now you seem to be making a "planes cause terrorism" argument with firearms.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 295 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 5/1/2007 6:17:53 AM

It's almost like most violent crime doesn't result from mass shootings. So you can have a much higher likelyhood of a mass shooting, and it still be relatively incidental compared to your massively inflated murder rate.
8 for sarcasam 0 for interacting with what I said.

Is violent crime in the US common or uncommon? If it's common, then there's a reason for citizens to carry firearms; if it's uncommon then firearms aren't making "lots" of violent crime.


here is a great article which addresses the statistical problems with making comparisons between two legal systems...
Once again, you didn't respond to what I wronte. I wasn't offering a comparison. I was pointing out that violent crime is common in Canada (25%-50% of women when discussing sexual assault). It's also common in the US. This means that private citizens are routinely exposed to violent crime; which is the exact opposite of one of your arguments for banning firearms (that people almost never need them).

So which is it? Is crime so very rare that I should sleep easy that I will never be a vicim of it? Or is there a crime common enough that I should be concerned for my safety? You seemed happy enough to complain about the occasional shooting ramapage as though it was a public safety issue, but when I suggest arming the public to put an end to it you cry foul and say "it's too unlikely".
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 288 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/30/2007 7:45:49 PM
Something that was bugging me.

Several of the more anti-firearm posters are making two comments that seem incompatable.

1) Violent crime in the US is very high (an example quote would be "many characters shooting up their schools and work places." or "All I'm going to point out is that the USA is rife with gun murder. It has a higher crime rate than the vast majority of the industrialized world. It has more mass shootings than any other western society." both by CharlesEdm)

2) The likelyhood of being the victim of violent crime in the US is very low ("Statistically the odds of you having this problem [a mass shooter] are tiny")

So which is it? Is the crime rate low or high?

There's a murder every 34 minutes, a rape every 6 minutes, and a home invasion every 10 seconds (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,952929,00.html?promoid=googlep). I'd call that a pretty reasonable likelyhood of encountering a violent crime.

What's the lifetime rate on rape for women? 1-in-3? But hey, perhaps that's just the US:

http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php
1. Four out of five female undergraduates surveyed at Canadian universities said that they had been victims of violence in a dating relationship. Of that number, 29% reported incidents of sexual assault.

7. A 1993 survey found that one-half of all Canadian women have experienced at least one incident of sexual or physical violence. Almost 60% of these women were the targets of more than one violent incidents.

8. Statistics show one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted during her lifetime.

But hey, it's only 50% that are attacked and only 25% that are actually raped. That's pretty remote right? No need to arm them. And that's "safe" canada.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 286 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:17:48 PM

Interestingly enough Saskatchewan has one of the worst crime rates in Canada.
It is interesting, but fails to address any of my points.


Washington D.C.'s ban is ineffectual simply because you have no useful National standard for gun control, when you can drive an hour away and pick up guns then the ban is rather pointless isn't it?
Wouldn't SE Canada be in the same boat (close to large cities with available firearms)? Isn't it odd then that he's just said that western Canada is in worse shape.


Same goes for Cho orederring arms online. If you had a functional national standard and his name popped up on a "do not sell" list because of his documented mental problems .... well you see where that goes.
Ordering is irrellevent. A firearm must be picked up from a dealer. Cho got one because the state didn't fund putting instatutionalization in to a database.


Why? should these weapons be controled, for the same reason I don't think every country should be allowed to have WMD's. I mean come on. Why should Iran's rights to nukes be infringed upon because SOME people MIGHT do something bad with them?
Firearms should indeed be controlled. You keep making assumptions that everyone on the opposition wants free-range. I want control. I don't think that control that outlaws firearms whole-cloth is appropriate or useful.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 279 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/29/2007 7:29:15 PM

To Feanor message 149: You talk about other nationals messing in your business! The USA has been sticking it's nose in other countries business where it doesn't belong for decades!
I see only three options.

1) It's wrong to muck with other people: in which case post #149 is right on that.
2) It's OK to muck with other people: in which case you have no valid complaint against the US.
3) Two wrongs make a right.

Which is it?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 278 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/29/2007 7:27:36 PM

If you guys stop more crime with civilian ownership of firearms, it certainly doesn't show in your universaly higher crime stats.
And Switzerland is lower than you. Perhaps when one tansistions from Detroit to rural saskatuan there are more factors than gun laws?

The safest city in the US (by Google-chosen site) is Norwood Pennsylvania (http://www.city-data.com/top26.html). I checked PA's gunlaws (http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=pa) and they are pretty free with handing them out (and prhibit municipalities from stricter controls). Heck, CCWs are even valid on school grounds.


As for switzerland's crime rate, it's not really an apt comparison, neither is Netherlands for that matter, which has near 0% gun ownership and fare lower crime rates than USA or Canada.
Oh. So when you compared your country to the US that was fair and proved your assertion about firearms, but when I compared your country to Switzerland that was unfair. Why? Because it disputed your assertion about firearms?

BTW, which "US gun laws" are you referring to. Washington DC completely bans guns from private ownership. It competes with Detroit to be the murder capitol of the US.


Yet somehow we have less mass murders, and less crime per capita. What's your reasoning behind it?
Actually your property crime is the same as ours. Your violent crime numbers are lower than the US at large, but higher than some areas of the US.

You keep implying that the sole difference between the US and Canada are the gun laws. How do firearms increase the isntances of rape again?!?! You are completely ignoring that some of the most crime-riddled areas of the US have some of the strictest firarms laws. You are completely ignoring that some of the lowest crime-rate areas have the most lax. You brush right by the quarter-century experiment that is Kennesaw GA, which saw a 70%+ drop in violent crime in two years after enacting "manditory gun ownership".


As for the Canadian policeman. Of course we have the **** up cops. They exist in any population.
But you think it's OK for them to have guns... the murdering, pedofile serial rapists in the police department; but not for the victims?


Statistically the odds of you having this problem are tiny, compared to lets say being shot by a girlfriend you pissed off with your own fire arm.
No. My odds of the latter are exactly zero. Since it's impossible for my odds of the former to be less than zero, you are lying to try to make your case.


They exist in any population. I guess the question is did this **** up cop ever shoot anybody? Because Cho sure did, and because of the efforts of NRA, the Chos of the USA get the guys they want very quickly.
I will take that bet if you will. Are you man enough to stand behind your assertion?

If I can find a single case of a Canadian police officer committing a murder with a firearm, you admit that your argument is BS and advocate gun ownership. If I cannot, I'll join you in the anti0gun campaign.

So. Have you been honest in your arguments, or will you now backpedal and make it entirely clear that even you don't believe your own rhetoric?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 86 (view)
 
Reaching the speed of light
Posted: 4/29/2007 2:54:41 PM

Mass does "increase" as velocity increases. Acceleration is what really matters. Acceleration is the same as gravity.
But speeds always relative.

If mass changes (even just inertial mass) then we could find "completely stationary" by finding where the inertial mass was the lowest.

We are already moving at near the speed of light... compared to things far away in our universe. It doesn't seem to me that you can have it both ways.

Either speed is relative, in which case I'm always accellerating from zero; or speed is absolute in which case the foundation of relativity seems flawed.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 270 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/29/2007 2:51:44 PM

Because cops deal with criminals on a much more regular basis,
So dealing with criminals does or does not validate a firearm?

"Less often"? So I've the tote psyco-killer wandering down the hall f the engineering building I'm in and I can say "it's OK, as I'm not likely to have this happen as often as a cop" and that will make it OK?


and their training is the reason it's fine for them to walk around with firearms.
So perhaps your mantra should be "to get a firearm should require extensive training". I could get behind that.


Also, while Canadians are occasionally killed by firearms, not at nearly the same rate as south of the border.
Non-sequiter. While Americans are occassionally killed by non-firearms, not nearly at the same rate as north of the border. (BTW "occassionally' is "30% of deaths" in Canada)

Here's another one "Not nearly as many Canadians have stopped a violent crime against their person as south of the border". Do you have any rates for up there?

Of ourse, your crime rate s higher than Switzerland, which has near 100% firearms ownership... but I suppose that might mess with your cherry-picking of apples-to-oranges comparisons (wow, lots of fruit in that).


Also police go through some pretty intense psych screening (at least in my city) something Cho obviously didn't have to deal with.
Here's a few Canadian police found guitly of dangerous driving, child pornography, serial rape, obstructing justice, etc. Tell me again about why they should have been trusted to posess firearms and their victims shouldn't have? (http://www.feeds4all.com/Item.aspx?ItemID=13937687)
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 265 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/29/2007 8:20:02 AM

This isn't entirely relevant. In Canada we have very restrictive gun control laws and our criminals, just like those in the US, still have guns. But we manage to go about our daily lives just fine without walking around strapped. If we can do it why can't people in the US do it?
So no one in Canada has ever died for lack of a firearm? Your murder rate is zero?

Of course it isn't, and if things were different then they wouldn't be the same. You've cherry-picked those who didn't get killed to make a claim.

Conversely, this thread has to prove quite clearly that your argument that "Americans are all walkning around strapped" is dishonest. When Cho went wandering through a college school building not a single person produced a firearm.

BTW, I checked. Canada's police carry firearms. Why is that? When a crime starts, it's very rarely against a police officer. So if the victim doesn't need a weapon, surely the police, who are better trained and arrive in larger numbers have no use for one.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 264 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/29/2007 8:14:19 AM

that law is already in effect.......from what I understand Mr Cho had not been
comitted so wouldn't be on the list anyway.
Cho had been forcibly admitted after an intervew by the police which followed a flag raised by a college instructor. The state of VA does not fund having those records entered into the national database so, unlike prison terms, it simply didn't come up on his background check.


No, it doesn't. But that doesn't mean it never will. How many elements of today's society are the same as those of a century ago? How many do you think will be the same a century from now? If you'll grant me the assumption that societal change will happen, why not try to direct it in a peaceful direction?
Fewer than I think you think, and none without cause. But this is worse than those as it's impossible for just part of the world to change in the manner you would like; the result being they get conquered by those who didn't.

Relying on the assumption that you will successfully make people behave in a manner unprescedented in 10,000 years of history is unwise at best.


Oh, I'm quite content to merge our positions. Part of the issue is the prediliction for violence of so many in our society. Part of the problem is the ease of access to dangerous weapons. I don't claim that eliminating guns alone will solve the problem. But I also don't accept that having a gun in my pocket is no different than having a rock in my pocket, as you asserted earlier. Killing or injuring someone is always personal, but it's a whole lot less personal if you can stand back and pull a trigger rather than engage in hand to hand combat.
Rock with sling is ranged. Bomb, poison, hired thug; these are less personal.

The difference between a rock and a firearm is yor effacacy. Certainly that can be illustrated to a negative example (while Cho could have killed more with a bomb, it's doubtful he would have killed as many as he did with a knife) but I don't think that's the norm (certainly the statitics don't support it). The predators have chosen their targets by relative impotence. Firearms are an equalizer... the personal equivelant of MAD.

Firearms aren't the most dangerous weapon out there. They aren't even the weapon of choise for most seeking mass deaths.


And I expected someone would challenge my civil and womens rights analogy, but my point is not that we've achieved nirvana in either case, but that we've made significant progress on both fronts, and it's time to start at least trying to make significant progress on the violence front, instead of falling back on the "that's just the way things are" argument racists and sexists tried to use not too long ago.
Let's look at the catalist of change for those movements... the force of law.

Certainly there was a social movement that created those laws, but slavery ended becaus it was outlawed. Sexism was quashed because it was outlawed. Segrigation ended because it was outlawed. It was the the use of force that made people behave differently. In short, we accepted that people were sexist and racist and then acted to prevent the behavior by force.

Certainyl we've already outlawed initiating the use of force. That hasn't solved the issue. Now do we accept that people will initiate force and use force to stop them, or do we lie passivly back while they run rampant?

To come back to our Cho example (since that sparked this particular one). If we took away his fireams, there are plenty of prescedented other ways he could have racked up casualties as massive. There's almost no prescedent for unarmed victims overpowering a mad gunman (there is some), but there is quite a lot of prescedent for armed victims killing a gunman.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 218 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/25/2007 5:23:07 PM
Gun control is a good thing. We definately should seek to keep fireams out of the hands of those ill-suited to posess them, including people who have committed felonies or who are mentally unstable.

I absolutely support background checks and think that we need to improve that system to help keep firearms away from unsafe hands.

As to the woman discussing school violanece in the US and UK, it's quite common in both (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=school+violence+UK). I think your feelings of greater safety are either imagined or related to the individual schools in question, not the general school systems of the respective nations.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 209 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/25/2007 3:37:27 PM

I'm often struck how many of us divide ourselves into two distinct worlds we choose to live in. There are many who assume humans are incapable of peaceful living, evil lurks around every corner, and the only reasonable course of action is to lock every lock, trust no one who hasn't proven themselves worthy, and arm ourselves against the inevitable attacks to come on our 'liberties'.

Then there are those of us who dare to choose to work to help create a better world. We refuse to resign ourselves to eternal strife and instead choose to believe that all those extra brain cells we cart around just might be able to one day create a society where violence is as socially unacceptable as slavery has become. Personally I see a whole lot more liberty in that world.
It's a false dichotomy, and the latter group doesn't exist... at least not without the protection of the former.

Find me the country with no millitary. Find me the city with no police. It is through the exercise of force that there is a safe and civil environment for those who dislike force.

People are quite capabale of living in peace. Armed people in particular have a history of being very polite and very respectful.

Finally, the "liberty" I arm myself against is "not getting killed". The alternative to protecting that liberty is dying. Of course I may never have to protect or loose that liberty; and the fact that I live in a society willing to use force to keep out invaders and prevent warloards makes that far more likely than the alternative.


Of course without a magic wand such a world won't happen overnight. Realistically not in our lifetimes. But that's no reason not to at least point ourselves in that direction, despite all the loud cries of 'it'll never happen'. The same cries were heard in the struggles for civil rights, gender equity, human flight, breaking the sound barrier, and a long list of never before attained objectives we've realized in just a very short period of time.
Bad analogy, and not the problem.

You claim that a social reform along the likes of equality and equal rights (I would point out that the sexual and racial divide still exists) is possible. Ok. Then enact a "don't use guns" social change. You need not take them away in order to do so.

As I've pointed out, and as you've not responded to, the issue is not the weapon but the criminal willing to use it. They have been around for melennia. Guns didn't make them.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 172 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/24/2007 3:04:42 PM

I don't know the context in which it was uttered, but it strikes me that about the same time a certain document was produced that proclaimed certain rights to be self-evident: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If someone is pointing a gun at me my life is certainly in question, my liberty sorely limited, and happiness in short supply. Having a gun of my own to point back may purchase me a bit of temporary safety, but I'd much prefer the essential liberty to live a life free of such threats.
OK. So guns disappear from the world tomorrow and tere's a guy beating you with a rock. How is your right to life looking? How is your liberty? Are you happy?

It turns out that the thing that took all that away wasn't the gun after all... it was the guy pointing it at you / bludgeoning you with a rock.

If you'd like to see a scenerio where the point of contention is the weapon itself (say the change from knife to gun) try my "14-year-old daughter" example above.

If you want to see what *really* happens when you arm a society, take a look at Kennesaw.


I guess it makes sense though. Since it's official policy to shoot first and ask questions later as a nation it's only logical that we encourage the same behavior in our citizens.
Actually: The federal government is very anti-gun. D.C. has the most restrictive gun control in the US. It also has the highest murder rate.


If a crook knows that if he is picked up on a smash and grab he could face X years in prison but by having a gun whether used or not while committing that same crime he will face X + 10 years a few of them may think twice before doing it the goal is the same in both to steal something.
Many states have such laws... they haven't proven much of a deterrant.

The problem is that punishment severity is rarely a deterrent. That there will be an immediate ramification (victim shooting them) is the strongest, followed by a certainty of punishment (a perception that the police successfully find criminals and that the courts successfully punish them).

It would be more effective if you could convince someone that he's almost certain to get 5 years than to threat 15 he thinks he'll escape.


Singapore has got it right. If you murder unlawfully or rape anyone, no question, its the death penalty.
Pity about all those wrongful convictions neh?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 142 (view)
 
gun control in the usa
Posted: 4/23/2007 6:46:46 PM
Well... it was a troll topic. However.

Firearms don't cause crime. There was crime before. There is crime in places that restrict firearms.

Police don't prevent crime (unless the cime is very lengthy, or there's tremendous luck) Police catch criminals who have committed a crim. Crimes are actually stopped by victims who resist.

A gun can make a given criminal more dangerous. Certainly the body count racked u pat VT would be hard with a rock. On the other hand, higher body counts are routinely had with home-mande explosives, or hijacked planes, or the like... so the firarm was a method of convinence.

In theory fararms are the great equalizer. If two men are breaking into the house where your 14-year-old daughter is; what (other than a firearm) gives her a reasonable chance of repelling them?

Still, it's interesting to look at apples-to-apples examples. There's a beautiful one in GA, a city called "Kennesaw".

Back in the 80s, when a county in AZ banned fireamrs; the city of Kennesaw decided to protest by requiring that homeowners who were legally allowed to own a firearm must do so.

Violent crime went down 60% the next year. It went down 40% of what remained the year after and it has stayed down.

Further, Kennesaw is a suberb of Atlanta... one of many, and so gives us good cities to compare crime rates with. Kennesaw is among the lowest in the region and has been for 25 years.

I recall a survey (harder to dinf than Kennesaw stats, which are readily avilable) that asked violent criminals what would most dissuade them... stiff penalties, cameras, etc... the answer was "an armed person willing to fight back".
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 106 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/21/2007 10:44:13 AM

The speed of light is NOT constant. It is dependant upon the medium through which it passes. For most purposes, it SEEMS constant.
The actual claims are "the speed of light is constant in a vacuum" and "the speed of light is not varied relative to the speed of the observer".


If light is the fastest known speed, does the universe expand at the speed of light, can light leave the universe, or is light bound within it regardless of speed?"
c isn't simply the fastest known speed, it's the fastest possible speed. Time actually slows down to keep c a constant.

No, light cannot leave the universe because light exists inside the universe. You seem to have an erronious view of what the universe actually is.


To this last question, I would argue that the universe is defined by the presence of light/electromagnetism, and space/time does not exist until illuminated.
Spacetime is full and always has been. It's also expanding.


Simply, light travels faster than matter, and nothingness does not become vacuum until it is part of the universe. This means that the size of the universe could be calculated as a sphere with a radius of C times the age of the universe. This also means we could never leave the universe by travelling less than the speed of light, unless there's a back door to bypass space/time.
You seem to think of the universe as this three-dimentional spehere existing in a larger three-dimensional space. This is an entirely false belief.

The universe has no edge. The universe has no center. The universe does not exist in a bigger piece of timespace (though for dimensions >n we can only speculate).

To understand how timespace exists within nth dimentional space, it might help to imagine a two-dimentional space within a three dimensional space.

Think of the universe as the surface of a ball. The ball has a limited surface area, but it has no beginning, no end, and no middle. The ball is inflating, causing the surface area to expand (timespace is expanding). No matter how fast something moved across the surface of the ball, it would never reach the "edge", nor leave the ball.. The ball has no boundries.


This is a bit off topic, but it leads me to wonder about the speed [and general nature] of electromagnetism outside of the normal vacuum of space, in environments such as singularities or black holes.
We don't know what happens within the event horizon of a black hole. We don't know that there is anything outside the nth dimentional universe or not.


Can you maybe briefly explain that because I'm not sure I'm getting your drift here. You did mention that light speed is constant ....right?. But with gravity , we have to take into account that there is an acceleration that must take place for something to move faster.
You are confusing the accelleration of a mass caused by the influence of gtravity with gravity itself.


The current explanation of a black hole is that it is a collpased something with such gravitational pul that even light cannot escape.

Just a theory.
Theories are proven... lith the theory of bouyancy, theory of gravity, lightwave theory and theory of evolution.


It doesn't get pulled IN. Black holes are pretty much the same as suns and stars, with one difference... the properties displayed to us are a different range.. the 'dark' range' unlike the range that is displayed to us by our sun, they have a range that displays darkness and just like around every star, planet or sun, the interacting 'matter' or better yet, the properties form new balances which result in different properties.
That hypothesis fails to meet obervable fact. Among other things, the fact that the force of gravity meets "c" at the event horizon (the last point electromagnetic energy can make it through) and allows us to determine the mass of the black hole in question.

The radiance of a star is not directl related to its mass... further, there's no such thing as "dark".
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 68 (view)
 
Your thoughts on nuclear power...
Posted: 4/19/2007 7:01:23 PM

The only problems with Nuclear power are artificial.
YOu mean like the fact that a sudden meltdown in the plant on the Hudson would kill an estimated half-million people? Good thing that accidents never happen, no one is ever careless, and there are no terrorists in the world.


He's not wrong about the need for water. And the more oil they take out the more water they need to extract more oil. It's a real problem, just as water shortage is everywhere.
No. A *fresh* water shortage is in existance in many parts of the world.


The only thing I'm concerned with, is the out put. And you cannot say it is not harmful. Uranium-275(or is it 375, I don't have my periodic table with me right now) is radioactive.
It was readoiactive when it was pulled out of the ground too.


And what are we supposed to do with all of this extremely radioactive substances? Oh well, let's bury them in the ground... great idea eh?
Where do you think that they came from?


I noticed an earlier post saying LED technology is just now surpassing incandescent in efficiency.
I don't like the feeling of the light when used as a light source, and the lumes ratings on the current crop suck. I'd really like to see them improve. I'd convert immediately.


People who have nuclear power pay on the average more than people who use other sources of energy for power, so you want to pay more look to nuclear power.
Depends on the "other source".
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 94 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/19/2007 6:53:42 PM

How can gravity move at the speed of light? Only light can move at that speed
That is, simply put, not true. There are quite a few things that move at the speed of light. Of course, that starts with the entire elecectro-magnetic spectrum (electricity through a superconductor, magnetic force, etc) and includes gravity.

How fast do you think gravity moves and why?


If it was then anything that is absorbed in gravity would be moving at the speed of light.
Ahh. So if light is moving at the speed of light than anything pushed by light (say a solar sail) must also be moved at the speed of light?

Your statement is simply wrong. Much like more light in a room makes it brighter, more gravity on an object imparts a greater velocity. The rate of accelleration is just as unrelated to the speed at which gravit moves as the brightness of a room is unrelated to the speed at which light moves.


For example.... If I fell off my chair here and I fell to the ground ,because of gravity, I would obviously not be falling at the speed of light to the floor LOL LMAO, ....right??
I never said that you would.


I always thought gravity was instantaneous but I admitingly have no idea. :) anyone have references?
Ones upon a time this was considered true. Relativity predicts that gravity, being an elementry force, will move at the speed of light. Quantum theory (which attempts to explain gravity's comparitive wekaness by having it move through more than 4 dimensions) predicts that it would move faster than light.

The available studies seem to confirm relativity.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 86 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/17/2007 3:08:15 PM

No, hate to burst your bubble jerry, but general relativity does predict a singularity.
I was unaware that would burst my bubble. Sounds like a conversation. Given that you don't understand what the big bang theory describes, you'll forgive me if I don't take your word on what any others do.


but unless you wish to tell me you have solved the problem of how matter acted in the inflationary period you cannot say for certain what the speed of light is at that time.
Depends on the material it's passing through. Through a vacuum it was 180,000mi/s just like it is now.


How did the volume of the universe, a hundred billion times smaller than a proton, expand to approximately one hundred million light years across in just 10-32 seconds?
Why do dolphins live in Igloos? The answer is "they don't".

The universe took, minimally, 50,000,000 years to become 100,000,000 in diameter... more from the perspective of something at the edge of the universe.


Remember, we are talking about the early early universe, were not even talking about any matter that Einstein agreed with, he hated quantum particle science.
What makes you believe that Einstein was worried only about matter. As I recall, his original insperation to get into physics was magnetism.


Light didn’t even exist at this point, just a bunch of stuff that was going to be matter someday.
Please support "no light"... though it really wouldn't have much effect on me to discover that the energy of the big bang did not exist at light frequencies early in, it would not effect the speed limit.


So the laws of physics, as I said, not only do not apply here they didn’t even exist as we know it. So your cosmic speed limit is safe.
Of course the laws of physics applied, as they have always applied since the moment after the big bang an right up to the event horizons of a black hole.


At any rate, when we talk about black holes and singularities, we are talking in turn about big bang as well.
No, we are not. A black hole exists within timespace. The big bang was the sudden expansion *of* timespace.


That first singularity contained all of the black holes that now exist as well as all matter that we see and beyond. It certainly must go way beyond even our most complicated understanding of current theory. So I am not surprised when we can’t grasp the concept
And yet you think you grasp the concept when you don't know at even the layman level what happened in the big bang?
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 84 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/16/2007 5:47:50 PM

I don't think tehre is a singualarity, there is NO EVIDENCE that shows there is a singularity there.
There's a lot of mass in a comparatively small space. I am not aware of anyone asserting that an entire black-hole existed in a singular space (presumably the size of a string).


I beleive that Black holes just pull or absorb things in them and they come out the other end, and we can see that they do because when you see those jets flying up on BOTh sides of the Black hole
A simple google search would have told you that the jets eminate from the acrition disks, not from beyond the event horizon.


that means when it went into the black hole , it went in there fast due to the black holes immense pull, but when it did and it crossed the actual hole (point of horizan) it just went out the other way.
That would require the material in question to be moving faster than the speed of light, which is impossible.


What kind of magnetic field are you talking about? wouldn't the magnetic field pull it towards the black hole?
"The magnetic field caused by the moving energized matter moving toward the black hole" and "sometimes yes but often no".


If we talk about the big bang theory (something for which I don’t agree with entirely) it suggests that all of the matter in the universe came from a singularity or a central point or the heart of a black hole
That is not what the Big Bang theory says. The Big Bang theory says that spacetime was once much smaller than it is now.


Now, if all of the matter in the universe came from one central point or singularity, what velocity is needed for all of that matter to exit the singularity without it all falling back in on itself though the sheer mass of it?
Since the premise is wrong... yadda yadda.

As to the amount of energy invovled in the big bang: Immediately after the big bang the universe was too energetic (hot) for atoms to form. It had to cool down before it was possible to have them.


The only answer that makes sense is a velocity greater than the speed of light. This would mean that the speed of light is not a constant in the universe, (Look up variable speed of light)
The speed of light never varies in a vacuum.


But does the singularity bleed matter off into another space time dimension? Or is it merely an entrance to a worm hole that deposits matter into another location in the universe, no one knows.
Or, wacky though this may be in regards to a lack of imagining unevidenced universes: Perhaps it's a bunch of matter all in one place attracting other matter with gravity (as matter is wont to do) and thus creating a local gravity so high that the accelleration reaches 180,000mi/s/s


A few points: First gravity actually isn't perfectly constant everywhere on Earth. The variances are utterly small and beyond unassisted detection but they are there. This would be true of all bodies.
The reason is that the Earth is not perfectly round and is not uniformly desnse. This would, therefore, be true of all bodies of non-sphereical shape or non-constatnt density.


Good points Starvartist. Another theory of gravity is that it acts like a wave. For example, if you were to remove the Sun from our solar system the planets would continue to remain in orbit until the lingering effects of gravity dissipated.
Gravity moves at the speed of light.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Reaching the speed of light
Posted: 4/6/2007 6:55:22 PM

While I understand that the universe has no edges in the classical sense, I wouldn't say it is boundless.
Why is that?


As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but space-time (the fabric of empty space) is created by the expansion of the universe. In other words, empty space, totally devoid of particles and energy is still a creation of our expanding universe.
You feel space-time is created by the expansion of space-time.


So my question is, what happens to light when it encounters the 'edge' of the universe?
Same thing that happens when a pedestrian encounters the "edge" of the world I would imagine.


I understand that the universe is expanding at a rate faster than the speed of light relative to us, but that's only relative to us correct?
I don't know that your premise is true. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's false. The universe is not expanding faster than light.


Surely at the 'edge' of this expansion there are light particles encountering something other than what we perceive as empty space yes? Or is it that light particles 'create' our universe even as they travel beyond it? Is the expanding universe defined not just by the expansion of matter and energy caused by the Big Bang, but also secondary effects such as the light of stars?
What do you think the universe is shaped like?


To save you some of that reading above I will quote the following for you.
I read it before you posted it up.

Since mass becomes the photons, and since the photons can become mass, and since photons behave exactly as though they have mass (put a photon in a container and the container gets heavier). In what was is "relativistic mass" not "mass"?

The article in question seems to be asserting that since the mass is energy (and so cannot be converted to energy) it's not really "mass" any more. That sounds like a (perhaps important to the field in question, but not in this disucssion) semantic argument.

A photon is pulled by gravity. I'd wager it exerts an (inperceptably low amount of) gravity as well. And when it hits you, you "feel" it (it transfers momentum).

What was the formula for momentum? I seem to recall mass being part of it.

So it has momentium, is created from mass (which is always conserverd) and adds to the weight of a container its in. How is that not mass (other than we can't apply E=MC^2 it and convert it to enrgy).

Seems like all that article says is "energy is a state of mass", meaning "photons have mass in energy form rather than mass in matter form" which, again, I find entirely acceptable. You are simply (presumably accidentally) equivocating my original meaning... which is ironic given that your saying "it doesn't have mass, it has [relatavistic] mass"
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 72 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/6/2007 6:45:59 PM
LOL Fair enough ;) What happens when I get distracted.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/6/2007 4:23:40 PM

But the rest of my original post on this topic explains that nothing actually IS moving faster than light.
No. It's not. A beam of light sent towards it will always eventually reach it. In fact, from the perspective of the opbect in question, it will reach it as a direct function of distance.

If you are on a train heading away from me at the speed of light, and when you are 1ly away you shine a flashlight at me, the light will get to me in 1 year. It doesn't even matter which of us is actually moving (as it's all relative).
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 69 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/6/2007 4:21:39 PM

I think you would be seeing the train go twice as fast in this scenario. How do you know that we would stil be seeing the train travelling at the speed of light and not twice as fast?
I'm not clear on the experimental evidence, but it's pretty foundational to relativity... which derives it's name from the fact that speed is relative to the observer. To have something move >c relative to you would devalidate the theory pretty completely.


In this case one may have to assume that there is something , maybe extremely remote to our understanding, that is infact working at a rate faster then light.
I see no need for any such assumption. In fact, I conclude such a thing to be impossible.


Maybe our eyes would not pick it up that fast, but it doesn't mean it would not be going twice the speed of light.
Nothing goes faster than light.


I am not a scientist but I have to believe that eventually, Einstien's theory will be disproven just like Newton's has been.
Newton hasn't been disproven. He was correct... within a scale. His forumlas have been expanded to be correct in a bigger scale.


From what I understand, when a black hole is formed, it means that at an atomic level, the electrons orbiting the nucleus of atoms get squashed up against the nucleus and their orbit and therefore the energy that they emit in the form of light ceases to exist.
That happens long before a black hole. A nutron star, for example, is too dense to contain atoms.

[qoute]Light I believe is created by the frequency of the electrons circling the atom. To stop the electrons would be to stop the creation of light. If that were true, then you would have perpetually light atoms and violate thermodynamics. It is true that an electron changing from a higher orbit to a lower one can give off light in the process (it takes less energy for a lower orbit, and the extra energy must go somewhere).


Once we pack all of these atoms together like this, there would be nowhere for electrons to orbit and hence no way to generate light.
This relies of the false premise that light is generated by orbiting electrons.


As well a belive the the event horizon is the point whereby the matter rushing towards the center of the black hole is in fact going faster that the speed of light so that even though it has not been packed down yet and therefore still emits light, the matter's speed exceeds the speed of light and therfore light cannot escape outward because it cannot travel faster the the mass that emits it
We don't have data on material within the event horizon. I suspect it still does not exceed the speed of light. Under the "curvature of spacetime" a gravity with a force of c would be "straight down" and steeper curvature could not be had, though broader could.


Eventually, I believe that 2 black holes will get trapped by the gravity of each other and so long as their mass is roughly equal to each other , the will both start to accelerate towards each other and eventally as long as BOTH have reached the magical event horizon, and are travelling past the speed of light that they will collide with sufficient force to release enough stored up energy that instead of just making a bigger black hole, in fact a new localized big bag will occur.
You have any number of problems there.

1) Black holes routinelt eat each other.
2) If your hypothesis is true, that accelleration will meet/exceed c, then time will stop and no collision is ever possible.
3) The Big bang was not an explosion of metter-energy within spacetime, it was the expansion of spacetime itself.


In this localized "big bang" that you suggested, wouldn't that be probably a "white hole"?, because they say that "white holes" are the time reversals of black holes, in that they emit or spit out energy instead of sucking in it.
The Big Bang didn't emit anything. It was the sudden expansion of timespace.


I am imagining that black holes colliding is an extremely rare event and that in most of these cases one hole is much bigger than the other so that it does not get to accelerate with enough speed.
It doens't matter. Any two black-holes will both accellerate to c before colliding.


I would venture to say the first bit of the ensuing explosion would toss matter out faster than lightspeed.
Movement faster than light is not possible.


It is just as hard for me to accept the concept of infinity.
No one has ever proven its existence. We simply do not have to capability to find the end.......yet!
You ignore that something can be both finite and boundless.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 66 (view)
 
Reaching the speed of light
Posted: 4/6/2007 3:59:56 PM

Also, if the fabric of space is actually a result of our expanding universe, what happens to light when it meets the 'edge' of the universe? Does it continue beyond this boundary? If so, does it still have the same properties and behave as it does in our universe?
The universe has no edge. It is boundless.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 65 (view)
 
Reaching the speed of light
Posted: 4/6/2007 3:59:18 PM

It's energy is it's mass (actually, mass equivalence) which is why the below is actually technically correct.
Sounds like a bad hypothesis to me. It would be massless if it stopped but it cannot stop so we have no measurements to prove that.

And of course, in motion, it has mass.. but that's not really mass even though light (as a form of energy) has mass as an inviolate property, and conservation of mass is a foundation of physics.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it has mass.

More to the point "where did the mass of the matter that was converted to energy go?"


As long as the photon has energy (as in moving) it has a mass equivalence. Once the photon ceases to move (has no energy) it ceases to have a mass equivalence.
But the energy has mass. A photon is funcationally hypothetical... a way to explain how light has particle behavior.


No, the big bang does not go fizzle because of this. Again, energy and mass are equivalent but they are not identical (or the same thing). One can convert to the other (become the other) but each one is not the same thing as the other.
So masless energy can become matter with mass. Mass is not, in fact, conserved.

So, you are asserting that the conservation of mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass) which is still held true by science is, in fact, false as converting matter to light removes its mass. You are also asserting that E=mc^2, a basis of relativity is false.

To accomplish this, we must concoct a "mass equivelant" hypothesis to explain why a hypothetical condition we cannot test for (light at rest) will have a property we cannot verify it would have.

I'm incredulous!


It is the similar to the saying "all men are created equal". This does not mean they are identical just equal by comparison.
Right. You've said that the mass disappears, but it acts like there's mass but there isn't really.

That violates quite a bit and also makes no sense.


You are confusing "invariant mass" (or intrinsic mass, the mass measured in atoms, molecules, etc)
So now sub-atomic particles are massless?

Mass isn't measured in atoms or molecules. It's measured in grams, unified atomic mass units, and the like. There's a basic tennant of physics that say mass must always be conserved in a closed system. This means that you cannot convert matter to energy and make its mass disappear.


Relativistic mass is actually the measure of the energy of a photon and it is this relativistic, or apparent, mass that allows (or causes) it to behave/interact with other systems "as if" it has actual (invariant or intrinsic) mass (in reality, the photon is not contributing invariant mass to a system it interacts with but, rather, energy which contributes to the overall mass of a system).
The effect of relativity is as a multiplyer. A 10kg object takes an order of magnitude more energy to accellerate from .5c to .6c than a 1kg object because it's relativistic mass is a multiple of its non-relativistic mass.

For light to have a relativistic mass, it has a real mass... which is very very small.


i would tend to agree with mungojoe....plus Im not so sure if gravity bends light because it has mass or if photons travel along a curved path in spacetime that has been warped by gravity...
But gravity doesn't warp when travelling through gravity (gravity has no mass). So does gravity not travel through timespace (even though it's been proven to only move at around c) or is it possible that gravity isn't effected by gravity because it has no mass, and light does interact because it does have mass.

This would also explain why it's impossible to create gravity (can't turn massed matter into massless gravity) and why gravity is perpetual (consumes no mass to generate) and why none of those things is true for light.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 174 (view)
 
A question for the athiests
Posted: 4/6/2007 3:44:39 PM

My apologies. I was indeed not succinct enough.

Accredited 1. give credit to (someone) for something. 2. give official authorisation or sanction to. Concise Oxford Dictionary, 10th edition...........
an unneccessairy definition. Your unclarity was in the word "writings". I did not realize you were referring to te things he's attributed to have said and thought you were claiming he had written something.


dragons and zombies abound.....Loch Ness gal, Bigfoot, faeries, why not? The thing is, they've never had teachings attributed to them. Maybe they're there to challenge us all?
The goalposts move from "if engough people believe in it it's real" to "if it has teachings attributed to it"? Actually, at least the Yeti and dragons are attributed with imparting wisdom.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 171 (view)
 
A question for the athiests
Posted: 4/5/2007 4:56:21 PM

The fact of the matter is that there are a jillion people who do believe in Him. And the WRITINGS accredited to Him are really very profound and stand the test of time.
Jesus is not credited with any writings. Do yu mean the writings that proport to be bigraphical of him (the gospels)?


And on another tangent, there is the theory of chulpas, which is, if enough people believe that a certain being exists, they will come into being. Who is to say that a Jesus exists or doesn't?
That explains all the dragons and zombies roaming around.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 63 (view)
 
Black holes...help!
Posted: 4/5/2007 4:53:59 PM
You said that things can move away from you at faster than the speed of light. They cannot. Nothing can move faster than the speed of light under any circumstances in the universe.

If there was a train travinling east at the spped of light, and one travelling west at the speed of light, and you were on the east-bound train, the west-bound train would move away from you at the speed of light, not at twice the speed of light.

There are no circumstances where someone can observe movement faster than light.
 JerryInTampa
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 57 (view)
 
Reaching the speed of light
Posted: 4/5/2007 4:50:28 PM

Energy and matter have equivalence but are not identical. It is a subtle distinction but a distinction none the less.
Well there goes the big-bang.

So since matter and energy aren't the same, I guess the forumla for converting from one to another is moot. E=mc^2 ties mass and energy together. Sinc you just said tat energy has no mass, and isn't a form of matter...


For instance, light has no "rest mass"/invariant mass (or at least such a small one that it is relatively insignificant). A photon does, however have energy under most circumstances and therefore a mass equivalence.
See here's where I think we get to the reality. Light has "a very very small mass"... which is true for any energy.

With no mass at all, I see no reason that light wouldn't shoot right past c (no energy required), but a mass "almost zero" would still have to stop accellerating when the multipliers for intertial mass neared infinity... hence stop at the speed of light.

It would also have intertia (mass * velocity IIRC) to impart... which it does with "light pressure".


By taking E=mc^2 and applying a little algebra you can calculate the mass equivalence of that energy using
Whether "E=mc^2" is the basic question. If so, m=0 means E=0


m=E/c^2
But you've already asserted mass. That's "zero".


When a photon nears or is at "rest" it has no energy (or at least insignificantly little) and therefore no mass equivalence. In this way it cannot not be said to be in disagreement with the principle of mass-energy equivalence.
So a single photon has almost no energy and would convert to almost no matter with almost no mass. I can accept this.

I cannot accept "no mass at all" without most of the basics of relativity (and potentially thermodynamics) being wrong.
 
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