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oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 33 (view)

am I making a mistake? Posted: 5/20/2008 4:55:32 PM
"people treat you the way you allow them to treat you." This guy is treating you badly BECAUSE YOU ALLOW IT. WHY? do you allow it? I feel that people in my life are priviledged to be in my life. If they don't see it as enough of a priviledge to treat me with 1)truth 2)kindness 3) consideration and 4) respect WHAT DO I NEED THEM IN MY LIFE FOR? BOTTOM LINE. DUMP HIM if you haven't already.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 68 (view)

You have your life ,, would you give it up ? Posted: 8/22/2007 12:56:04 PM
"Life" comes in "stages" and sometimes different people of the same AGE are at different stages in life. I am 60, yet I have male friends who are 61 or so and have SMALL children from a mid life marriage---since my kids are approaching 40, I am not into the "raising small kids" stage any more. I am glad for these men that they ahve these children which give them great pleasure, but it's not for me not NOW. I am retired. If a man were big time invested in his job or career we wouldn't be in the same "stage" because career doens't have any interest for me. Life also comes in "places"--I live in the South in a mostly moderate climate--and I know that when you move even an hour away, you do leave behind things as well as people that no matter how much you want to keep in toucdh sort of drift out ofyour life. Finding a GOOD match at this age is difficult...it was always difficult we just didn't see HOW difficult, and now I think with us wiser (we hope) we have to lookk at things with more depth than we did when we were kids.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 65 (view)

Philosophy anyone? Posted: 8/19/2007 11:37:46 PM
According to the writings of Laurens van der Post, the Bushmen hear the stars, as well as are totally aware of their environment. If a butterfly flies in Java does it effect YOUR world? It moves the air, even if ever so slightly in Java, which....you get the idea. Though we have removed ourselves "far" from the enviornment in which we were "born" and in many ways lost touch with it--we no longer have to dig for roots, hunt for meat orfind water on a daily basis to survive--and I am not saying we should go live in that environment, but I think we need to be more aware of our "lower" instincts and feelings that hold over into our "modern" world. The "need to win" the "desire to fight" the acquiring of "stuff"---when we have more than enough stuff + 1,000% to survive--we devote so much of our time and energy to acquiring "things" that I think we lose sight of the basics of "life"--and that's not "stuff"--we can no longer "hear" the stars...

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 77 (view)

Why do people eat meat? Posted: 8/19/2007 11:22:34 PM
H2O FUNNY FUNNY!!!! I am a member of P.E.T.A. People Eating Tasty Animals--but I do raise my own beef--so I know it is BSE free, by the way, there is an MD in colorado who has developed a test (blood based) to test for BSE in live animals now, and for Chronic WAsting disease in deer and elk--I hope it becomes universal--should if the USDA was doing its job! Chow down!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 13 (view)

Farmer fed his missus to pigs Posted: 8/17/2007 9:17:37 PM
Actually, pigs can't digest the teeth, but as far as I know (I've been around pigs all my life on the farm) can crunch up and digest every other part of a body of any animal, including humans. I would be quite surprised, though, if DNA could survive the digestive tract of a pig unless it was inside a tooth root. Rescue dogs can find even "bones" that are years and years old, and old teeth donated from dentists are frequently used to train rescue dogs to search for bodies. I know a lady that has a rescue dog that "found" a man's body under 15 feet of water in the ARkansas river. People will go to great lengths to destroy a body of a victim or hide it, but they usually slip up in some way or other and eventually get caught. Feeding a body to pigs or other carnavors would probably be as "good" a way as any, but not perfect of course. I am glad that while CSI is not yet realistic for most crimes, the majority of murders are solved eventually. DNA sure helps.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 294 (view)

characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath Posted: 8/17/2007 8:50:01 PM
Shy Lady, the "terms" for Psychopath/sociopath/anti-social personality disorder are debated and used and changed on a frequent basis even by professionals, so in essence they are THE SAME. A Narcissist is also on the same scale. There is a continuium from "Bad to worse" with narcissist at the "bottom" (least violent usually) up to Psychopath/Sociopath/Anti-social personality disorder. i.e. a 1 to 10 scale. In any terms, these people leave chaos, havoc and misery in their wakes to one degree or another. Yes, their brains are HARDWIRED different and there is an 80% correlation to heredity, but probably not just one gene. Dr. Robert Hare studied these folks for his entire career and is one of the top experts on them. Unfortunately, it is not "PC" to say that there is anyone who is not subject to rehabilitation etc. etc GAG! Unfortunately, a recent study proved that PPD (psychopathic personality disorder) are WORSE and more violent AFTEr therapy--they gain new tools to use against their victims. Because they do not many tiimes have a "motive" that makes sense to the rest of us, it is difficult for "normal" people to actually see what is happening until they are hooked in deeply with these people. Some motives are apparent, scamming money, but others are more difficult to see--but many times it is nothing more than the "thrill of the chase" to "get away with a con." They are experts at picking out prey that are vulnerable to their charms and they sense somehow what it is emotionally that the prey "needs" and pretend to fill it, then when the pray is "hooked" the abuse starts--sometimes just for the sake of huring someone or somthing "weaker" than they are. They need constant adoration and have an inflated sense of entitlement and that "rules don't apply to them." Many times the victim is made to lookk like the scammer, and they ruin body and soul, reputation and sanity of the chosen victim. They do as much as they can to make the victim accept the "blame" for their behavior. A PPD husband may come home, and beat his wife, then apoologize and blame her, "Honey, if you had had supper on the table when you should have, I wouldn't have had to smack you." He was hitting her "for her own good"--GAG YUK--they love to taunt their victims and brag about how sly they are. A pair of them can be beyond belief if they can work together on a scam. In the end, though, if they are caught, they will "roll" on each other because they have NO loyalty to anyone except themselves. There IS NO HOPE for these people to make them "normal"--to make them see the light. They are unable to feel empathy, or love, but they learn to mimic the emotions in conning their victims. They are NOT all in prison. Reading and learning the RED FLAGS will help, but some are so sly they frequently fool professionals. The damage they do to humanity and to society are unfathomable.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 8 (view)

Some financial oulook clarification please Posted: 8/16/2007 3:44:52 PM
What income level a "gold digger"will seek depends on what SHE thinks is "adequate" to "sell herself for." My son married one 7 years ago and he is a blue-collar grunt, but a good heart, sober (doesn't even smoke) and has a heart as big as a mountain. The gold digger in this case, had a son in awheel chair and she was unable to work and care for him at home too (she had a6 inch high GUILT tattoo on her forehead because she was responsible for her son's suffering and eventual death) So she was very willing to settle for a low-average income and a man who would help her take care of her son. He filed for divorce after 7 years recently. Her son had died about a month previous to his filing for divorce. She was having an affair with a ex-convict with Hep C, stole $24,000 from my mother, bought her ex-convict boy friend (by the way my son is actually a nice looking man and this boyfriend of hers is 150 pounds over weight, looks like a gang-banger version of the pillsbury dough boy) a gun, they tried to kill my son just prior to making their get away--but ended up being both arrested and both have multiple felony counts that will put them both away in the hoose-cow sfor many years. I am sure the $24,000 in one "wad" must have looked like A FORTUNE to her and her boyfriend who had only been out of prison a year, actually not quite a year. Funny, thing is, if she had hung on just another year or so, my elderly mother would have actually left her probably 20 X that much money plus a beautiful home. There is no "accounting for tastes" and Karma is a b1tch! So what and who are "gold diggers" depends on the person's definition of what is "gold"

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 76 (view)

Texan Law of Parties: Are you kidding me?! Posted: 8/12/2007 11:34:40 PM
Having a son who is in prison in Texas for murder--the premeditated, cold-blooded execution of a 17 year old girl, I would like to chime in on this. If anyone deserved the death penalty my son did and does--however he did not get it, but instead got "life" which since his crime was committed before the latest law on sentences was passed, he came up for parole this past year after 15 years inside. He was given a 4 year set-off, which means he cannot come back to the parole board until January 2011. I will be there to beg the parole board to NOT let him out, so will his brother. My son was not raised in a violent atmosphere, but he is a card-carrying psychopath without a conscience. He has no remorse for his crime, and in fact, in recent months has literally tried to take control of our family "by proxy" from his prison cell, and almost pulled it off. The plan was to murder me, then my mother, (in that order) to circumvent a family trust, so that he could get control of my mother's assets. Fortunately his "friend" that he sent here to do the job is in prison now for being caught with a gun in his possession (felon in possession of a gun is a felony) His friend will spend a great deal of time here in Arkansas in prison, and he will wish he was back in prison in Texas before it is al l said and done. I think only Louisiana has a more horibble prison system and Arkansas is tied with Mississippi for the next worse. By contrast, my son in TExas has a "cake walk"-- Personally, if the evidence is uncrontovertable (however that is spelled) I think anyone who kills with premeditation OR in the commission of another crime (robbery etc) should be HUNG publicly. PERIOD. Put the rest of the criminals in the stocks and give them 50 lashes "well laid on their bare backs" and send them on a chain gang and we might cut down on some of the violent crime in the US that is spreading like wild fire. The kids can't read the Bible in school, so now they can get it in prison. What is wrong with this picture?

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 290 (view)

characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath Posted: 8/12/2007 7:56:42 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Kitty, I don't know about "inspiration"--I do know that my "little darling" son did underestimate this "tough old bird"--yes, he is arrogant like you can't believe--and he has fooled me in the past--or rather, I LET him fool me, which is in some ways the hardest thing to admit. When you love someone it is difficult to admit that there is NO HOPE for them, and that they are literally a MONSTER. My son qualifies in the "monster" "Hannibal Lechter" (I'm not sure of the spelling on that). catagory. Back years ago I had worked in head and spinal cord injuries, and then when my beloved step son suffered a massive head injury, I told my husband that I think that that job was "God's way of preparing me to deal with this." The time I spent working in the psych field I also think was God's way of "preparing me for dealing with my son." Depending on which studies you read, there are from 1 to 4% of the general population that qualifiy as "certifiable" Psychopaths (Narcissists are the "nicest" form of this, but is essentially the same) all Ps are Ns, but not all Ns are Ps-- In prison, 20% of the inmate population are certifiable PPDs--and they do about 75% of the violent and repeat crime. Many people on the outside never get afoul of the law and go to jail or prison, but the wreck lives and leave a wake of emotionaly "bleeding" corpses, financially ruined people, scarred children, wrecked families, and other devestation behind. Punishment doesn't "work"to help them clean up their act in the least, and therapy (according to a recent study) only gives them a better arsenal of weapons to work with and hones their skills as con men, and emotional fakes. Some of them are quite good at it. If you are interested in protecting yourself, go to --the psychopath dot freeforums dot org and READ AND LEARN. That is one of the best support sites for survivors of these human vampires that I know of. MSN also has one. About 99.9% of "abusive" spouses would qualifyt at least on the low end of the scale in these qualities, and your friend's husband qualifies. They can become quite violent when they are thwarted in their goals. It is amazing to me that so many of us "victims" allow ourselves to be abused over and over and over and over, some victims NEVER escape the clutches of these people. There are a great many "red flags" that are generally apparent when you meet one of these people, but most ignore it and let them get their clutches on you before you even realize it. We try to be "too nice" and just like a wolf seeks out the weakest deer in the herd to focus on, these people can almost "smell" someone who is emotionally needy enough to fall for their BS--not every Jackass is an N or a P, but all Ns and Ps qualify as jackasses for sure. A friend of mine who just "fell in love" with a guy she met on the internet, saw fairly quickly that this "princecharming" was setting her up for the "emotional kill"--no benefit to him, really, except the satisfaction of another victim on his resume. I have met several guys on POF and other sites that I would "bet the farm" that qualified, but "picked up on" the RED FLAGS. I didn't however, pick up on those red flags when I started dating one after my husband died because I had "known" him casually for about 10 years. Many times they have a mask of "mr nice guy" to the world at large and only abuse those nearest and dearest to them. Fortunately, I got out of that relationship in only a few months, but if I hadn't eventually realized he was a P, I could have married the man and been in "hell on earth"--- Most people are basicly good people and do the best they can. We all have things that are "baggage" of one sort or another, but the "red flags" of the N and P are the "instant love" and the "too soon too fast" "sweep you off your feet" stuff that should be a red flag. They are a heady "narcotic" and lure you in with "the love affair of the century" but as soon as you are "hooked" they start to fillet you alive and throw you in the hot fire to cook. I am just sorry that I gave birth to one, but I hope he stays in p rison for the rest of his life and if I can facilitate that, I will.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 288 (view)

characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath Posted: 8/10/2007 4:28:21 PM
Kitty, you are sooooo right! Just been through another "war" with my psychopath son--and finally "won"--but like most "winners" in "war"--I've got some terrible wounds, and the cost has been horrible. I will survive, but AT WHAT COST. My psychopathic son's "puppet" (also professionally diagnosed as Anti-social Personality disorder--the newest name for psychopath) is in jail, on several felony charges stemming from his being a felon in possession of a fire arm, attempted murder with a fire arm, and attempted breaking and entering. Plus, my son C's wife BOUGHT THE GUNS --and she is also in jail with a felony charge as well. Good thing, too. My psychopathic son P had all this planned out--but K, his "friend" decided to have an affair with son C's wife, and they got caught, so they just decided to hurry things up a bit and kill C before they took off with thousands of dollars they had scammed out of my confused elderly mother. I have been trying for months to get my son C to see what was going on with his brother and his brother's "friend"--but no one believed my "rantings" and "paranoid ravings"--how could "any sane person believe such a stupid story?"--MAYBE BECAUSE IT WAS TRUE???? not a chance!!! They wouldn't even look at the evidence that the private investigator I hired found to prove that K was lying, that he WAS A PEDOPHILE--their "evidence" that they had was "he said it wasn't true." DUH! Well, now, we are working to get enough evidence to get a "conspiracy to murder" charge against my son who is in prison, and in Texas that is his THIRD STRIKE and he will NEVER GET OUT...and K will go to prison in Arkansas and I think I might be able to get his "sentences stacked" so that they are not "served at the same time" which will make him do more years. But in the meantime, they have our address, so it is move somewhere they can't find us--move from our family's home siince 1833--but at least I am alive to move, my son C is alive and my mom is alive and still has her estate intact. But our family will never be the same again--my mother will go down to her grave in grief and pain, but the knowledge that her "beloved grandson" did this to us, to her, and that her disbelief almost caused my son C and me to lose our lives---how can that be "fixed"--?? I've spent almost $40,000 in legal fees, private investigators, etc. and wasn't able to accomplish anything, except put them on notice that I was "after them"--but in the end, they brought down their own house of cards with the "affair"---and got caught. When I showed up at the bail hearing to give an "impact statement" to the judge, the psychopath sat over in his orange jump suit--smirking--not the least ashamed or "sorry" for anything except getting caught. Even if he got caught, he had still "won" because he got the pleasure of making my life miserable, of hurting me, of destroying my son's marriage--- But I did get the bail so high neither of them could make bail, and my DIL did decide to give the money back in exchange for a little "good will" and to sign the divorce papers without contest--and she will most likely get probation. But she will have a felony conviction, and when she does come out of jail, she will have "everything in the world she owns" on her back---so there is some justice in this world. Some vindication for us "victims---and yes, there are plenty of people that deal with these folks that are 100% INNOCENT VICTIMS. They are excellent con-men and can use you like TP and not care. Vindication does feel nice--but I am not gloating in any sense of the word. I am just glad to be alive and kicking.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 575 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 8/10/2007 3:58:39 PM
Hi, guys, I am back--took a little trip--literally ran for my life from my N/P son and his "puppet"-- I found a great forum for support, thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org and it is a good one. For those of you who doubt the "diagnosis" or the criteria for the diagnosis, go there and read and learn. All psychopaths are Narcissists but not all noarcissists are psychopaths. ... it is a "scale" like form 1 to 10 with Narcissists at 1-5 and Psychopaths from 6-10 with 10 being TEd Bundy or Charlie Manson. It isn't just about "being selfish"--it is about the INABILITY to love or care for anyone except yourself---it is about being a VAMPIRE. My darling psychopathic son (who is in prison for murder) sent one of his psychopathic friends (excon pedophile) and darned near pulled it off...to murder me, take over my poor confused little mother's estate, and when he gets out on parole the two PPDs would ride off into the sunset. Sounds like a bad novel, well those who were "there" back in the earlier phases of this thread know the story---but 9 or 10 weeks ago I bought an RV and literally left home...to be safe where no one could find me. K was arrested---for being a felon in possession of a gun--plus trying to kill my son C, and had been having an affair with C;s wife---they had already persuaded my mom to put a large chunk of cash into son and Wifie's name (she drew that out to buy the guns) and as her Psycho boyfriend was trying to push through the door with a gun in his hand, she was trying to take the phone out of my son's hands as he was calling 911, when he managed to get to the cops, she and the NPD fled b ut the cops got them. Now they are both in the county jail on $150K bond (they can't make bond) he will go back to prison with multiple charges--and she will probably get probation but a felony conviction...my PPD son in prison was 'directing" all of this--but now at least my son C sees what has happened and has filed for divorce from this witch---and my mom, even as confused as she is realizes she is scammed and her attorney is now willing to get her a guardian---but it won't be me (her only child) I am moving out of state, leaving my home because as long as my PPD son knows my address, he will send another "friend" after me, for revenge if nothing else. These people range from irritating to HOMICIDAL--and they are totally unable to CARE that they hurt you--they can't love, but they can sure FAKE emotions, and suck you in, con you--lie when the truth would fit better--use you like TP and toss you away. Nothing is TOO LOW for them. BTW--the personality disorders are NOT "mental illness" to those of you who "came in late"--they KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, they just DON'T CARE. There is NO cure or effective treatment of any kind, and there is a valid twin study showing that there is an 80% corelation with heredity. in Identical twins raised apart, if one is an NPD or PPD, 80% of the time the other was too. Being mistreated or abused in childhood can make you mean, but you are BORN a psychopath or narcissist. Environment is more likely to be the difference in whether you are Ted Bundy or Ted Kennedy....but the woman still dies.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 115 (view)

Bitter Attitudes.... Posted: 8/10/2007 3:40:07 PM
I agree with M7 that "bitterness is anger gone rancid." Anger can be "justified"--but bitterness NOT. It is perfectly reasonable to be VERY ANGRY at an S/O that robs, abuses, cheats on you, etc...but if that JUSTIFIABLE ANGER against the behavior of ONE PERSON, continues to make you BITTER against "all" men/women/ etc then the negative emotions carried over to your next "relationship" will sink it like a boat with a hole in the bottom. Bitterness leads to PREJUDICE--i.e PRE-JUDGE. In other words, you pre judge a person by their race, their sex, their age or whatever you're bitter against. Bitterness is not reasonable, not rational, not fair, and sure isn't helpful to the one that harbors those views. Deal with your JUSTIFIABLE ANGER...and don't let it become bitterness miss-directed at others who have done nothing bad to you. Bitterness does become "cancer of the soul."

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 91 (view)

Baggage Posted: 8/10/2007 3:20:41 PM
"Baggage" is one of those words that doesn't generally have a precise definition from person to person. If baggage is looked at (i.e. defined) as bad or undesirable traits held over from previous bad relationships most people have some at least--like you get VERY angry over "small" things that your X used to do because you haven't dealt with that issue. Or you won't even date someone how has a drink of alcohol now and then but has never been drunk, because your X was a booze hound. If those things are the "baggage" they can be dealt with--with care and consideration in a new relationship. If "baggage" is defined as something else--say for example--massive debt from the previous relationship gone sour, or children still in the nest, or pets, etc. those might be harder to deal with. If "baggage" is an adult child too lazy to work that you still support and frequently bail him or her out of jail, or raise their kids for them because they won't--that too might be much more difficult to deal with. So the definition of "baggage" can vary a great deal from person toperson, your "baggage" might not BE "baggage" to you--you may feel that you are BLESSED to be able to have a child at 65 years old for the first time--but I would consider starting with an infant at this age (I'm 60) "baggage" I don't want to "carry." You might consider the big debt not "baggage" because it wasn't from your inability to handle finances, but your x robbed you--so you will work at Wally World as a greeter until you are 85--that's a bad break, and not your fault, but while I am not rich by any means, I am solvent, and am not interested in finding someone to support--that is "baggage" I don't want to carry. Maybe your health is horrible---a stroke or some bad disease. Doesn't make you a bad person, but I am not willing to take on the full-time job of nursing you (from the start) If I already was in love with you, I WOULD carry that baggage, but why become involved with someone you know is a "full time caregiver's job?" If that sounds "cold" I don't mean it to. There are lots of men that wouldn't be interested in me because I am 60, look 60, not 25 etc. so they would consider my looks "baggage" they didn't want to carry--and that is okay. To me, "baggage" is defined as "anything about you that I am not looking for in a relationship"--where you got it, why you got it, none of those things matter--it is something I am not willing to "lug around" the rest of my life in exchange for spending it with you. Whether it is your bad health, your big debts, your drinking problems, your bad attitude, or raising your grandkids or "rescuing" your good for nothing adult children--I don't need it. I don't have any of those problems, so why would I want to find a man who did?

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 437 (view)

Murphree TX exonerated every guy caught by CATCH A PREDATOR Posted: 7/27/2007 9:33:12 PM
While "thought crime" is not supposed to be the democratic way, "conspiricy" to commit anything is just you and me talking about a crime. If I say to you (aloud or on paper/media) "Hey, guy, let's you and me rob a bank" and you say, "Okay, let's talk about it--how about next Thursday at the branch of the Left Bank of the Mississippi" we are BOTH guilty of a CRIME that in many cases will get us more time in Club Fed than if we had actually robbed the bank. To me, that is "thought crime" but the Feds see it differently...I realize that there are "pervs" of all sorts in this world, and others that THINK about "perverted" things but don't actually do them. There are people who role play, etc. and between two consenting adults I don't have a problem with whatever rings someone's chimes...and as a society, though, we have decided that sex between "adults" and "minors" is illegal, and a crime. Adults who TRY to have sex with a minor, or someone they think is a minor, and that "know" it is a crime are being publicly humiliated by showing up naked in someone's house thinking there is a child there. Personally, I think the public humiliation for some of these "professionals" who hide behind the cloaks of "legitimate people"--the guy next door--the little league coach, the Scout leader--and yet are out to get with kids sexually--should be publicly "outed"---they deserve no less than to have their bosses, their neighbors, their wives, etc. know that they are "perverts" and if that "ruins" their lives---too bad. As far as I am concerned it is like "Candid Camera"--the old show that pulled jokes on folks and filmed it---only this is the ULTIMATE joke--cops or no cops, let the show continue to out these pervs. They aren't going to "change" or "get help" without being exposed, and God only knows what diseases they will bring home to their innocent wives. Recently there was a cop who killed his family and then himself who was on POF--so crazies and pervs are "everywhere" not just here or in real life--they live next door to you, on your block, coach your kids, teach your kids, sit next to you in church...exposure is the only way to protect our kids from them.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 536 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 6/7/2007 10:25:37 PM
All Antisocial Personalilty Disorders are also NPDs, and the continuium sort of starts at NPD and goes to Antisocial Personality disorder (formerly called sociopath or psychopath). There IS A BIG hereditary influence, as found with identical twins raised apart, and there is an 80% chance if one identical twin (raised apart) is then the other one will be as well. Dr. Robert Hare, one of the leading researchers also says that Psychopaths are "hard wired" in the brain differently than "normal" people. They don't process emotions the way the rest of us do. There is a great site called "thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org" (delete the qotes and the dots) and has tons of great information as well as support for people who are survivors of NPDs and PPDs. There are other sites you can google too, that will give you lots of good information these personality disorders. They can also be mixed with depression, with bi-polar or a host of other mental illnesses as well. Avoidance is the only hope for not being wounded by these people.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 524 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 6/1/2007 4:13:35 PM
No golf pro, to answer your question about "forgiveness"---yes, I have "forgiven" them, but it is the same way you would "forgive" a rattle snake if it bit you--it was only doing what a rattle snake does--inject venom. That does NOT mean that I think I can associate with a rattle snake and not get bitten again. I do not think I can associate with an N/P and not "get bitten" again either. I don't hate snakes, though I have in fact, been bitten by one, and I don't live in utter fear of being bitten again, I just avoid TOXIC snakes if I can, but I do still go into the woods, and hike, and camp, because those are things I enjoy doing, and I wont' let the possible presence of a TOXIC snake keep me confined in my home and not do the tings I enjoy. Yes, I take REASONABLE precaustions in the woods to not get bitten by a snake, but don't let it make me "paranoid." My son is a TOXIC person. He will not change. He knows right from wrong, but he does not CARE. He is incaplable of ever caring. The only way to successfully "handle" one of these people is to get them as far out of your life (and emotions) as you can. Holding a grudge against them is self-defeating because you have "rented them space" inside your head/heart. It is important TO ME, for my own emotional health, to "forgive" my son and my bio-father, to get over the anger and bitterness, and I have done that FOR ME, not them. They could care less. In fact, to them, I ONLY think of them all the time. They HATE ME because I am no longer their victims. I guess really that is the best "revenge" in the world, and they do it to themselves. I don't want "revenge" and I don't need it, but vengefulness is part and parcel of their psychie. I am at this point in time in no contact with any biological relative closer to me than a first cousin, and I intend to continue that for the remainder of my life. If I were to walk down the street and see one of them, it owuld not make my heart race or make me upset any more than it would a complete stranger--I have come to true and final acceptence of what they are and who they are, and I don't need or want anyone in my life who is TOXIC.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 519 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/31/2007 9:18:46 PM
Quad mom, I was not raised by my NPD father, I did not see or even meet him until I was 18, I was raised fortunately by a very wonderful step father, my son has never seen my NPD father. My very wonderful step father spent a great deal of time with my NPD son and my son lived with him and my mom for a year to go to a special school for very bright kids. My NPD son had every advantage of a close knit family and community of friends and cousins, so was fortunate not to grow up in a "bad" enviornment. That is the earrrie thing about it all. No I do not think that genetics is it ALL, because even identical twins even raised apart only have 8 out of 10 times will have it, so there is definitely some environmental things going on as well. I knew a woman long ago that I thnk was a viscious N. She had 4 kids that were normal IQ and 1 that was retarded. She was the WORST MOTHER I HAVE EVER KNOWN that didn't kill the kids, 2 of her kids with normal IQs were just like her, and the other two were wonderful people. Same raising, and similair genetics, but different results. That's the thing, too, you raise your kids to the best of your ability (no one is perfect parent) you invest your life for 18 or more years in working to provide for the kids, to give them what they need materially and emotionally, teach them precepts of morality and how to behave themselves, give them love and your time, and they turn out NPDs or criminals, or drug addicts, or bank presidents, or doctors or lawyers, or Indian Chiefs and all that matters is that you 'DID THE BEST YOU COULD" I think any parent that puts their kids FIRST and does the best that they can, will influence that child for the good--if the child is willing--but children are born with a will of their own that starts being manifested at about the "terrible twos" when they first learn to say "NO" and we can "influence" them, but we cannot "Make" them do anything. We can show them, model behaivor for them, but we can't make them do it if they are determined not to do it. Your NP,Quadmom, may have also had a bad abusive life, and that may have also influenced his behavior, but I believe at some point, he chose to be that way--just like a person with the tendency for alcoholism chooses to drink---all the genetics in the world won't make you an alcohholic if you chose NOT to drink. I think that your NPD may be "past redemption" at this point, but I don't think they never had any "freee will." I wish you the very best with your babies, and I do not doubt for one second that a woman as caring and understanding as you would be anything but a "good" mother, but what I am getting at is, that if one or more of those children turn out to be (God Forbid) NPD, it is NOT your fault. Even people without a "known"NPD in the family end up with them in their families, even people who are good parents. I ended up with one NPD out of two bio-children. However, if I had known what I know now, I would not have had children. I would have adopted more rather than have given birth to them.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 517 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/31/2007 9:22:57 AM
Madsnorker, I am not the Quad mom, but I think I am professionally qualified to answer your question, and I have a son who is both NPD and Psychopathic. According to Dr. Robert Hare and other researchers into these disorders, yes, there is about an 80% corelatioon between identical twins who are raised appart. In other words, if you took identical twins (genetics identical) and raised them in two different homes from birth, if one twin was NPD or PPD there is an 80% chance the other one would be as well. My biological father is NPD and PPD, and one of my sons is NPD and PPD--my son is in prison for murder. My father is NOT in prison, but there is reason to believe he has murdered one or more people. I have not seen him since 1967. I am no longer in contact with my son in prison. Not all killers are psychopaths or narcissistic, and not all psychopaths or narcissists are killers. The main thing is that they have dysfunctional relationships and many times are abusers of others. The PPD had no conscience, they can do anything to you and it does not make them feel guilty. Their brains are literally hardwired different than those without this condition. People with NPD are not usually intending to hurt others but do hurt others unintentionally because they are only able to focus on their own needs and not on the needs of others. They actually don't believe others have needs. Both kinds of disorders can be linked together, and in the worst of cases usually are. It is sort of hard to see where a person with NPD ends and a person with PPD begins, but there is still research going on about this. If a person with a personality disorder is raised in a home where there is a parent that is personality disordered, they are usually "worse" because they get not only the genetic component, but poor parents as well. It is difficult to impossible for aperson who is seriousl personality disordered to parent well. If I had known at the time I chose to have children that personality disorders were genetic, I would have chosen not to have children. I only had two children and one was NPD and PPD. Fortunately both of my biological sons are unlikely to have biological children. My NPD-PPD son is in prison, and I hope he is there for the duration of his natural life, and my other son has married late in life and to a woman who has been "fixed" so I am sincerely hoping I never have natural grandchldren to possibly pass on this trait. I have seen and lived with the pain and devestation that these people can make in the life of a family, in the life of the community, and the pain that must have been felt by the family of the young woman my son murdered. Even from prison, he has caused havoc and discord within our family. That is why I have chose to cut off all contact with him ever again. The only contact I will have is every time he comes up for parole, I will be there, beggng the parole board to NOT let him back out again, EVER. He is dangerous inside, I can only imagine what he woujld do if he should ever get out of prison again.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 503 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/29/2007 12:19:35 AM
Good Post Quad mom, as usual. Hope you are still doing well. For those of you who are doubting Thomas'es about this disorder, there is a forum called thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org (no ospace between the and psychopath) it is for Narcissists too, and had thousands of pages of good information and clinical stuff inadditon to support groups on line. You'll find me there under my same name as here. While I have been going through all this drama lately with my narcissistic and psychopathic son that forum has been a great support to me. These people are toxic, they are dangerous and at their "best" there is no way to have a quality relationship with them. Even if they only fit 8 of the 9 things they need to qualify for a "clinical" diagnosis ad my dear old grandpa used to say "that's close enough for government work"--it still boils down to a toxic relationship with someone you cannot fix. Taking care of yourself first may be the only way you can survive. I hear all these people who talk about anyone who doesn't want a relationship with anyone with a personality disorder or a mental illness (untreated) being "cold and cruel" is full of BS in my book. Why would anyone want to pick out a person with untreated serious mental illness to have a relationship with someone. Most of the time the reason they are single is that they have destroyed their previous relationships with their illness or personality disorder. Well, they may "deserve love too" but dog gone it, it won't be from me. I won't walk by and kick them but I sure don't want to take them home with me. Alcoholism is an "illness" too, but I am not going to go down to skid row and pick me up a homeless wino to take home. I applaud the people with bi-polar or depression or anything else who sticks by their treatment and lives a good life. Sometimes those people are better adjusted than the general run of people. But having anything to do with someone who is untreated for mental ilness or personality disordered is suicide of the soul. I may be a friend to them and encourage them to seek treatment, but don't have any intention of getting involved with them. That is my choice. There are some nice people who have serious physical problems, HIV or lots of other problems, and I probably wouldn't become romanticly involved with them either, or a man that weighed 700 pounds, or had had a stroke and couldn't walk or talk, or is 90 years old. If I have a romantic relaitonship I dont want to "buy a fixer'upper" I want one that is not eaten up with the emotional version of termites. I want one that might need a few touches of paint, but not one Ihave to rebuild.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 499 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/28/2007 1:33:11 AM
Margo, No you have not offended me in any way...first off let me say I am a retired psych mental health professional...it is true you or me or anyone else cannot make a "clinical diagnosis" of NPD or any other personality disorder second hand. BUT, having said that, Psychopathic personality disorder which is very similar to NPD is in the neighborhood of 4% of the general population. It is 20% of the prison population. There is also borderline Personality disorder, NPD and several other disorders. Yes, they are not mental "diseases" like depression that can be "chemically" treated and they do not respond well or at all to other therapy. There are also "degrees" of the disorders from bad to really bad to horrible serial killers. The main thing that they all have in common, however, is chaotic relationship histories. The thing is, the only way you can deal with these people is to RECOGNIZE that they have some kind of serious DISORDER--what the name is is actually irrelevent. The only way people can recognize any mental illness or disorder is to EDUCATE themselves to the symptoms. These people know that killing their parents is wrong, however, they don't CARE. I am surprised that it succeeded as a "defense"--maybe because the person was young. My own NPD son is in prison for murder and belongs there. He was 20 at the time he committed that crime. In addition to the NPD he is a "card carrying" psychopathic personality disorder as well. So people can also have multiple diagnoses.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 79 (view)

Widow/ers: Greatest fears about new relationships? Posted: 5/26/2007 12:30:13 PM
Juswonderin, I hear your pain, I am a widow as well...I am surprised at the lack of tact in some of your "friends" though in asking why you didn't "see it coming"--YUK! How tactless of them to say such a thing. Having a man who fully accepts you as you are is a wonderful thing, and not everyone ever has that wonderful supportive relationship. Nothing on this earth is "forever" including those wonderful relationships. Unless you both die in some accident together most of the time one person is left behind when the other one goes. Statisticly it is usually the woman, too. Grieving over this loss takes time, and reinventing ourselves, and working THROUGH the pain. You can't go around it, over it, or under it, you have to go THROUGH it. This coming July I will have been by myself for 3 years. In some ways it seems forever and in other ways, only yesterday, but I have come to peace and acceptance. If you haven't attended a grief support group, I highly recommend that you do so. It will help you to work through your pain, loneliness, etc. and also let you know that you are not alone in your grief. There are many others in the same boat. I got into a "relationship" too early because I felt old, ugly, not desirable, lonely, etc etc. ad nauseum, and almost got danced down the garden path by a man who was looking for another VICTIM--fortunately I got out of that bear trap before it bit my leg off. That is one of the things that can happen when we have not completely gone through our grieving process to the point that we are fully "back to our selves." I don't have any idea if I will ever have another wonderful relationship again, but I do know that I will never just accept ANYONE rather than not be "alone." I realize that being single may not be what I want, but it is much better to be happy single than miserable as half of a miserable dysfunctoinal "relationship" God bless

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 240 (view)

Pathological Liars Posted: 5/26/2007 12:52:23 AM
Well, sir, your comment to the lady VanHockeyMom about her choices in men is, as my dear old mom would have said, "tacky and uncalled for"--pathological liars and others who have disordered personalities can be quite charming, and she is by far not the only woman who has ever been "fooled" by these people. With your caring and empathetic attitude, I am sure that you must be the most wonderful catch in the POF pond. I bet all the X's in your life would testify to that fact. er what that says about YOU?

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 65 (view)

dating a bit of a party girl. am I paranoid or are these red flags? Posted: 5/21/2007 9:10:29 PM
I think this thread is a perfect example of someone hearing what they WANT to hear, rather than the truth. You will notice that almost all o f the posters have advised the same thing--which is basicly, "she's a player" she is "not into you" etc. One or two posters say, "Well, give her a chance" and one very eloquent poster says essentially "don't listen to the rest, she's your girl" ( I realilze I am not quoting, just more or less summing things up) The OP more or less says, "Yes, oh, eloquent poster, you, and none of the others, sees the truth" "we have been together for another week (in this one month relationshp) and she "explained" and now all is wonderful again, it's okay that she didn't invite me to her party, but she told me about it, so now is okay, but I'll keep my eyes open" This attitude is called "maligniant optimism" --which essentially m eans that the SO of a user/abuser sees everything with a pair of foot-thick rosy glasses, and makes excuses for every nasty, hateful, inconsiderate thing the abuser does. "Oh, my husband wouldn't have had to hit me if I had had dinner on the table on time, it really was my fault, I should have stayed home instead of taking the baby to the doctor with a 105 degree fever and had Sweetie-pies' dinner ready. I know how hard he works all day and the baby could have waited after all. Sweetie-pie deserves his dinner on time." (and on and on ad nauseum)

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 96 (view)

Growing old gracefully or just growing old? Posted: 5/21/2007 1:09:02 AM
I read a book recently called "Crones don't whine" (Crone is an old english word meaning older woman) Actually, getting older has been liberating for me. Back in the days when I was a "hot fox" women were jealous of me if I flirted with some one, now I can flirt outrageously with men of any age from 20-80 and no one is jealous of me. I am retired now, so I can wear what I want to anywhere I want to--so now I wear some outrageous things and love it! I don't try to dress "skimpy" or sexy or like a kid, I dress like a "swinging old lady" not a dowdy old lady. I let my personality shine and my clothing shine when I go out. The rest of the time I dress is jeans and tees, or shorts--my legs are still pretty shapely, but the last thing I want is for people to see me and laugh and say "look at that old lady trying to look 16. I'm not growing old gracefully, I'm growing old with fun! Having the time of my life!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 181 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/21/2007 12:50:48 AM
"How do I trust again?" Zone alert, that is a good question. Not trusting anyone or being so paranoid that you dont want to get close to anyone is a difficult way to live. It is very lonely. My dad used to say "if you put a cat on a hot stove, it is difficult to ever get him onto a cold one." "Once burned, twice shy" My suggestion is to educate yourself on personality disorders in general--there are quite a few variations, but there are "syndromes"--that simply means a sort of a "check list" of things to look for when you meet someone new. I recently did an essay on instinct in humans. We call it our "gut feeling"--but we don't listen to it enough. When men lived in caves and tigers roamed the land, men had to keep an eye out for predators that would eat them, or they got taken out of the gene pool. If we "listen to the environment" we are better able to pick out the "human predators" in our midst. A rabbit that is grazing will listen to the birds around him and if they start chirping a certain way, he knows there is a possible predator in the area and runs for cover. he listens again before he comes out of cover, for the birds to sound the "all clear" sign. Just like the Native Americans would cover themselves with Buffalo hides to sneak up on a herd of buffalo, some people cover themselves in "disguises" to get close to us "for the kill"-- So we need to learn to spot the predators as often as we can. On a forum for survivors of psychopaths and narcissists that I subscribe to a woman asked a question. She had started dating a guy she knew casually, and when they had gone out, the guy had become enraged at a guy who had blarring music and was parked outside the place they were eating. First her date pecked on the windof the eattery, then the guy in the car outside cranked the music higher and her date got up, ran out into the street and started beating on the car's window. She wanted to know if this was a "RED FLAG!" Of coure it was. Her gut told her it was, but yet she was still not sure. Some times when we start dating someone who is quite attractive and has some qualities we like, etc. and we see these "little" things at first that make our gut "speak up" but we tell it that "it wasn't such a big thing" and don't listen to it, because we WANT to see the nice things in this person. About 8 months or so after my husband died, I was very depressed, feeling low, feeling old, ugly, fat, etc. etc. (a real pitty party) and a guy I had casually known who was a "mr nice guy" as far as everyone thought starting giving me the "bum's rush"---and there were some TINY indications that at the time I saw, but told my gut to hush. Later it became very apparent he was a psychopathic personality disorder and an abuser (physical and emotional) of women. I fetl so stupid that I let him hook me into it, because I KNEW better. Most of the men I have met on POF and it has gone as far as a phone call I have actually talked to a couple or three times and "eliminated" because there will be some "little" thing that tips me off that they might not be a good match. One man was talking about his job interviews and how unsuccessful he was "Because they won't let me get past the secretary!" He was very angry and blaming it on someone else. He had no insight into what might be the problem. In that same conversation, I had suggested something to him that might have helped him (not in a critical way at all) and he almost screamed at me, "I know that!" in an angry tone of voice. Needless to say, RED FLAG. When you are getting to know someone at first, we all tend to be on our "best behavior" and as we get better accquainted the "real us" tends to come out more. I'm pretty much as "what you see is what you get" person, and very "up front." Not at all shy. I had been going out with, as friends only, a guy lately from my living history group that I had met in october. We have gone to auctions, canoeing, out to eat, and just kiind of hung out. I was getting to know him and feeling like I might like this friendship to go a step more maybe toward romance. During a conversation yesterday, however, I kind of saw some things that I don't think would make us a good match, though I would like to keep him as a friend only.] From what I gather about his past, he was married had a daughter and his wife died. He married a divorced woman with a son, and then they had a son. His wife's son was a druggie, out of control kid whose mother was always "rescuing the kid" and the kid pulled a gun on my friend and pointed it at his head. My friend loved his wife very much, but he told her the kid goes or I do. Period. Boundary set. Two weeks later, his wife let her son back into the house. My friend tried to talk to her about this (he felt very devalued that she thoght more of her son than she did of him) and she slapped his face and said "get out" to him. He did. He left that night. As he was leaving she was running behind the car saing "come back come back!" (actually sounds like BPD behavior to me.) He, I think, is not able to trust again. I can't put my finger on why I think this, but it is just a "gut" feeling I got yesterday. I will listen to my gut on this, and continue to be friends with the man, because I do like him, but I can't see having a relationship with someone who can't trust. To me TRUST is the deepest part of a relationsihp. My late husband and I had 100% trust in each other, and respect for each other. We didn't always agree, but we disagreed in a respectful manner. We put each other first. People with BPD have difficulty with trust, and they also can "blow things out of proportion." Many times they see things in All black or all white, all good or all bad. Learn all you can about BPD, Narcissistic and Psychopathic behaivors the forum I go to is thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org. There are links there to all kinds of information and of course there are ways to google BPD and get more information as well--learn to spot the signs, listen to your gut, and build the trust in your own intuitions.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 87 (view)

If someone on POF has a serious mental illness Posted: 5/20/2007 8:03:16 PM
Well, with the new laws here in US on privacy, and anti-stalking and anti-terrorist, there are some things changing about what documents are available and what aren't. By talking to the attorney and investigator, I was able to find out quite a bit that I didn't know about these recent changes. Some of these laws make sense and some are stupid IMHO. With all the idenity theft stuff going on etc. it looks like in many areas they should be stronger, but at the same time they make things worse in some instances. A basic background check returns every address you have lived at, all the neighbors near those houses/apt. criminal records (convictions only) what the charges were, but not all the details. No legal credit history now without permission or applying for a loan or credit application. No military records--again, legally. Though I am sure that there are illegal ways to get information, crooks do it all the time. Even employers have trouble gettign "references" on hiring someone because companies are afraid to give a bad recommendation--then get sued. Of course when someone calls wanting an employment recommendation all you can do is say they worked h ere from June 19XX to July 20xx. But, about the only thing you can do is say with the TONE of your voice what you would like to say in words but can't. It is frustrating sometimes. Most of the time restraining orders are worthless, except as the first step, and they don't "protect" anyone--paper doesn't stop bullets or knives or baseball bats. You have to go through the motions though to get the law to protect you at all. Unfortunately, even with people with serious mental illness who have harmed themselves or others, the MINUTE they are on meds and "sane" they are turned loose on the streets with little or no follow up, stop taking their meds and become violent again, and the cycle repeats. Locking up the chroniclly mentally ill is "inhumane" too so I don't know what the "best" answer is--maybe there isn't any go0d answer. In the past they would be chained in back rooms or basements. Prisons are full of them, many are homeless and hopeless. I wish I could even guess at a "solution"--it's depressing but there aren't answers to all questions, or fixes for all problems.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 84 (view)

If someone on POF has a serious mental illness Posted: 5/20/2007 10:42:08 AM
I was e mailed on POF by a guy, and we exchanged e mails a time or two, then I gave him my cell phone and we talked. Then he sent me ALL of his contact information, including a photo of "his" vehicle with the license number, his home and business phones, web site, etc. When I did not respond by sending him every contact info includign my full name, address etc. he actually threatened me in an e mail on POF. "I'll get" you type of message. Said because he had my cell #, that he was a private investigator and had gotten my full contact info (I don't think he did but who knows these days?) anyway, I blocked him and reported him to adm. as dangerous. Then I got a PHONE CALL from him ON MY CELL and he "apologized" and tried to deny the "threat"--he was "only angry and didn't mean it" I listened to him a moment, and then told him quite calmly and rationally, that I didn't know if he had my contact info (except for the cell #) but that I apparently did have his, and that in the event he ever called me or contacted me again in any way I wouild file stalking and harassment charges---then as I was hanging up, he offered to be my friend and loan me money if I needed it. DUH, how strange is that. His profile is still up here on POF. FRankly though, I can't imagine any woman in her right mind having anything to do with this guy if he goes so ballastic right off the bat if you don't give him all your contact information. I am quite selective about who I give any contact information to except cell phone number and POF e mail. My home e mail is linked to my own web site so there is no way I am giving that out to someone I haven't scoped out pretty well. Adm of POF didn't knock this guy's profile off, but even if they had, he could have been right back as another "screen name" so probably what I did was useless. But when people make a proveable threat (I had the e mail) at any time, I take it seriously. It isn't illegal to have a mental illness, and it isn't illegal to have a mental illness and not take the medication (unless there is a court order). Since the new medical privacy acts, and mental illness being a medical condition, I don't think it wise to go about telling people about someones mental illness UNLESS THEY ARE MAKING A THREAT and you have Proof and then I would report it to the authorities, or admin here. The POF adm have no "authority" to have everyone send in their medical or mental health records in order to get a profile on here. I don't expect them to have done background checks on all profilers either. So I very reasonably take precautions on anyone I meet from POF before even giving them enough information to know within 10 miles of where I live or my full name. Quite frankly, until I get to know someone I consider that they might be a "serial killer" so I proceed with caution.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 59 (view)

Ten Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives Posted: 5/20/2007 10:25:34 AM
EDDIE! You summed it up perfectly! I couldn't have done it as well myself! You did it in one sentence! You get the award!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 178 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/20/2007 10:21:05 AM
Verygreeneyez--"I'm afraid I am not equiped with enough skill, patience or understanding to be a positive in your life"---a great catagory! With your permission I would like to borrow that for the future! How PC! Scorpio, while some of your expressed opinions I agree with very much, however the "self diagnosis" is a very dangerous thing. Over here and who knows in the UK too maybe, we have a saying "A lawyer who has himself for a client, has a fool for an attorney and a fool for a client"--self diagnosis is probably one of the WORST ways in physical medicine, but in psychological medicine it is absolutely ...well...there just isn't a word for how bad it is. Believe me, as a medical and psychological professional I have been on "BOTH SIDES OF THE CLIPBOARD." Just a short example, I started feeling really bad, hurting all over all the time, drew some blood on myself and tested for RA a severe type of arthritis. The test came back negative, but occasionally there will be a kind of this that will be "sero-negative RA"--so when these symptoms continued it was just easier for me to decide that was what I had rather than taking aday off work and going to another medical care provider. So, I suffered for months and months, finally went to a physician who specialized in RA. Took all my blood work, spent an hour with this very smart and nice woman, and at the end of the hour she said "You don't have RA, you have sleep apnea is my guess." She set me up with a sleep apnea clinic, I got tested and was VERY deprived of oxygen during the night and therefore not any "real" sleep. I got a machine and PRESTO I am "cured" of alll the aches and pains. I was a fool to not go to a physician sooner, but because I didn't, I was the o ne that suffered. Self-diagnosis on mental illness, by either a professional or an amature is more risky than medical self diagnosis. I got lucky on that one as I didn't hesistate while a cancer ate me up or some other big problem, so after my husband was burned to death in a light airplane crash in which I pulled him and the survivors out, even though I was working in mental health at the time, I got to a professional immediately. I had "decided" in my own "diagnosis" that I had PTSD but the psychiatrist said it was severe depression--and thank goodness she was right. It was very difficult for me to be on the "patient" side of the clipboard and to not "diagnose" myself, but it was very important that I let myself be the patient, not the provider. I did that, and I am glad, because ultimately I got much better care, and my recovery was much better and faster than if I had tried to do it myself. Unfortunately, those of us with even good or excellent insight into others have VERY LITTLE insight into ourselves. No matter how we try to be "rational" about our own behavior, we always see our own behavior in the "best light"--and professoinals can observe it more objectively and without our own "rose colored" glasses with which we always look at our own behavior. I have great 20:20 HINDSIGHT into my behavior, but much less clear a view of the future. People with BPD can be very charming for a while. I have been "sucked into" a couple of friendships with BPD, and it is especially bad if they also have Bi-polar along with BPD. I have over the years become fairly adept at "spotting" the early, "very charming" behavior and the offers of "instant best-friendship" as RED FLAGS. The majority of the time later, my cautionary stance will prove to have been right. Occasionally, though, I will have "backed up" from someone who was genuinely a nice person and for whatever reason just seemed to click with me or our family and they really didn't have borderline personality disorder. In a "friendship" situation my "action plan" is to back up from them. Look and listen and see how it develops from there. It usually won't take long until you can see. Since I am fairly skilled in the interview process from years of doing therapy, I can sometimes illicit enough information to know that in the past these people will actually admit that they have been diagnosed with some form of personality disorder, or even in some cases have a criminal record to go with it. Yes, they can be very charming. Most of the time when I saw them professionally at the start they were coming n because of a suicide gesture, threat, or had slashed themselves. Self mutilation is quite common with BPDs, although most of the other personality disorders don't self mutilate. Suicide gestures and threats are common when the person with the disorder is so frustrated at not getting what they want they do this to try to make the other person in this relationship "give in." I'm not impressed by suicide gestures or threats. People who are really going to commit suicide just DO IT. However, if a patient makes a threat or a gesture we are required to take it "seriously" and hospitalize them. Sometimes when someone makes a suicide "gesture," not really intending to DO it, they actually end up DOING it. Violence is common with BPD as well as the other personality disorders. Your comment that "none of your problems were your fault"--I think is another statement that shows your lack of insight into all of this. People with personality disorders are usually able to control their behaivor in an intitutional setting where they know that they will have consequences immediately. That their violence will not be tolerated and they will be stopped immediately for attemting to hurt someone. Only occasionally in my experience with inpatients with personality disorders has anyone who is not actually psychotic become violent. People with personality disorders are generally not out of touch with reality in terms of psychotic problems. (hearing voices, seeing things, thinking they can fly, etc) So, if their behavior can be self-controlled when they know that if they don't self control someone else will control them, is it impossible for them to control it in other situations, or is it because they choose not to control it? I make choices every day to "control" my emotions and their expressions in behaviors in dealing with people. If I am irritated or angry with someone I choose not to hit the person no matter how "justified" I might feel because of what they said. I not only don't hit someone because I dont' want to go to jail for doing it, I don't hit them because I love them, and don't want to destroy a relationship forever by my out-of-control behavior. Over a wonderful 20 year marriage before my husband died, there were times I wanted to "throttle" him, and I am sure there are times he wanted to "throttle" me, but we both kept in mind that even ONE instance of that kind of physical or verbal aggression would have absolutely ENDED the relationship FOREVER. You cannot "unring" a bell. Once something is said or done it is said or done forever. Most "normal" people (people without personality disorders) know this and act accordingly. Doesn't mean that all "normal" people have "perfect" or "wonderful" or even "good" relationships, but it does help toward forming them. Whether personality disorders are genetic, learned, or both, the main static characteristic between the many kinds of personality disorders is that all of them have "relationship difficulties." With family members, auth0rity figures, SOs, usually their children, sometimes neighbors as well. They may also be selective about their poor relationships..for example an NPD or Psychopath may have "wounderful" relationships in public and go home and beat his wife and children "secretly." They can be very charming in public and horrible in secret. They are so "nice" publicly that if their chosen victim comes forward and tries to get the police or others to see what a monster the person with the personality disorder really is, no one will believe them. The victim comes off looking "insane" will the monster is so "rational and polite" and so LYING. There are all levels of personality disorders and different types of those disorders. People can have multiple diagnoses with mental illnesses as well. It can be quite complex. Some people have these identical behaviors and are never diagnosed at all unless they happen to also be a criminal and get diagnosed in prison. Ted Bundy, a very charming psychopathic killer here in the US was "Mr. Nice guy" in public while slashing and raping and killing "in secret." People who knew him were dumbfounded when he was finally caught. John WAyne Gacy was another "secret" monster serial killer. None of these people were diagnosed prior to finally being caught by the criminal justice system. Doesn't mean the diagnosis wasn't REAL before it was on paper. I also imagine that they didn't have an objective or rational "self diagnosis" either. The list goes on. Not all people with personality disorders are killers, and not all killers are people with personality disorders, but in general, I can say, people with the behaviors of AND/OR the diagnosis of personality disorders do not in general have a record of successful relationships. So I would think I would like to avoid someone with the behaviors of or the diagnosis of any personality disorder. I don't have the stamina or desire to date someone with personality disorder in an effort to help them "fix" themselves. Just MPO. Peace.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 78 (view)

If someone on POF has a serious mental illness Posted: 5/19/2007 6:11:27 PM
The thread could be" if someone ANYWHERE has a serious: Character disorder, criminal record, mental illness, etc." As long as someone is not considered a "danger to self or others" meaning that they are "wielding a knife or gun or making verbal threats" AT THAT VERY SECOND. then if you "tell on" them to their boss, their land lord, etc. and cause them problems etc. They can sue you and probably collect...with a couple of exceptions. Sex offenders now must register and thought he laws vary a bit from state to state, if they are considered "high risk" the neighbors are notified by authorities. If you know someone is a convicted criminal you can legally obtain the "public records" and disiminate them...however, if they are not on parole and have "paid their debt" (no matter how HIGH a risk you consider them to be, they still have a "right" to live in society. Recently a registered sex offender of chldren age 9, 11, and 14, a habitual violent burglar, thief, drug addict, etc with a 15 page criminal background of convictions moved into my mother's home as her privately hired "caregiver"--upon learning this information about him, I did everything in the world to get him out of there and finally succeeded by trying to get my mother declared incompetent--and therefore I could, as her power of attorney, remove the man. I currently have a restraining order issued by the judge for this man of no contact, but if the judge decides she is "competent" then he is back inside. The attorney that is representing my mother is a "bull dog" and may actually succeed in getting her to the point where she can return this guy to her home. While all this is going on...which may take weeks or months...if my mother is declared "competent" (regardless of how wise or unwise or manipulated she is) to manage her own affairs, she is allowed by law to move this guy right back into her home. NOTHING I CAN DO. There was a man in our living history group who "disappeared" for a while and then "reappeared." I happened to know that he was a convicted child pornographer and had served time in federal prison. There really wasn't any way that I could "legally" keep him away from our kids, but I did speak to his parole officer, obtain copies of his conviction and sentencing and his parole conditions. Because I am very tenatious (read bull dog about some things) he was eventually removed for cause from his job working with chidlren and from our group who presents programs for children. It took some work to be "legal" about it. As much as I would "like" to turn someone in to adm if I thought they might be a danger, if you are not qualified to make such a judgment or if you do not hae the right to pass on that information, then I would advise you to contact an attorney before you proceed.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 169 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/19/2007 5:55:58 PM
Scorpio, Personality disorders do not make people "charming, witty, or funny." Being physically attractive in the media sense of the word is not intensified by a personality disorder. Many people with personality disorders can't keep a job any better than they can a relationship. Not everyone who is a "jerk" has a personality disorder. Not everyone who is "nice" (at least at first) doesn't have a personality disorder. Plenty of people go to bars and clubs who are NOT alcoholics. Plenty of people go to churches who ARE alcoholics, so by your "logic," meeting someone in church is a good bet to meet an alcoholic. Since you seem to think that all "normal people" are "fat," unattractive, boring, sad and unhappy...generally the last person you would want to date. Does that mean that all thin people are attractive, exciting, happy people you would want to date? What is sad, unintelligent, boring and pitiful in a person I would personally NOT like to date, is someone who knows nothing at all about a subject, and has to pontificate upon that subject, but uses the "Johnny is a soldier, Johnny is 6 ft tall, Therefore: all soldies are named Johnny and are 6 ft. tall" type of logic. Most people with BPD are not "evil," but many people with BPD have relationship difficulties. Most people who are alcoholics are not "evil", but many people with alcoholism have relationship difficulties. Most people who are addicted to heroin are not "evil, " but many people with a heroin addiction have relationship problems. Most people with little insight into developing and maintaining functional and successful relationships (whatever their "problem"--see above list for a few sugestions) are not good "bets" for developing and maintaining a functional and successful relationship. Love and relationships are to some extent. Just like in a hand of five card poker --we get the cards dealt to us. We look at the cards and decide which cards show the most potential to make a winning hand (relationship) and discard those we think are most likely to form a losing hand. There aren't enough days in our "alloted three-score and ten years" to play EVERY hand of poker and there aren't enough days to check out every "potential" date/mate, so we look at the cards we are dealt and pick what we think will be the best chance of a " good match." If that hand isn't a winner, we may stay in the game for a few more hands and more chances to find a lasting relationship (if that is what we are indeed looking for) But why would you keep a "card" that wasn't likely to "help" your chances no matter what you drew? Just like a poker hand, I am not willing to waste my time, energy and emotions on a losing hand to have a "relationship" that has a good chance of being chaotic and painful at best. You are right though, there is a pretty high number of people with some serious issues out there from alcoholism to serial murderers--but us old, fat, ugly, dull, stable, nice, "normal" folks---may not be all that "common, " but you know, most of us have also developed a little wisdom along with the fat, wrinkles, etc. and one of the things we have learned is that NO relationship is MUCH BETTER than a BAD one! Maybe when Paris Hilton gets out of jail she and you can go out on a date. That would be a great hook up I am sure! Personally, I would rather my son picked out one of the fat, nerdy, nice, sweet, caring, kind, intelligent, educated, and "normal' girls to have a happy and good relationship with instead of someone as sexy, exciting, shallow, stupid, thin, spoiled, egocentric, rich and in jail, as Paris.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 490 (view)

MY SOAP OPERA CONTINUES-TODAY'S INSTALLMENT Posted: 5/19/2007 5:27:28 PM
Hang in there Quadmom! How is the "double-duo" doing? Still driving you crazy! ha ha I went out on a canoe trip on the devil's fork river, good water, great scenery and a guy to go with me--no BF but a good friend anyway. Climbed up a cliff and explored a shallow cave there, watched the birds and baby birds and saw 4 deer on the bank. Sure did need to get out of this "crisis of the day"--and that is what I did. It will all end soon, because at this time I am holding a hand-full of aces --some of these folks will shoot themselves in the foot if you give them time...it is frustrating to deal with them, but patience is it's own virtue and so have cut off all contact except through the law with the N/P, and his brother who is currently on the "outside" may find himself "inside" (at least our county jail) for violating the No Contact order the judge posted with the "caregiver" after he was thrown off the farm...right now the only damage they are doing to me is pitiful 5th-grade stuff. Irritating, but handleable. I have been "processing" my reality check and doing my best to be "rational" and not "react only by emotion"--If you let them get you in a funk, they "win" because you are too upset to think. The opposite of "Love" is not hate--it is indifference--it is just no longer emotionally investing. Realizing that there is, like you have said, NOTHING you can do to make him or his other victims "see reality" with logic, they WANT to believe the "hologram" that they see is "Real" and they are convinced that it is. I've been there myself, and wanted so badly to "believe" the lies that I did, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. The private eye returned 15 pages of criminal history records (small print) on the now ex-caregiver, but no one will "believe" it is true, they claim I "fabricated" the records on my handy-dandy printer program. All they would have to do is to call the sheriff's office and ask to speak to the sheriff and he would verify that what i have is correct. But no, they can't take the chance that the "bubble of belief" (hey, that rhymes and sounds good) will burst. They focus on proving that I am "lying and seeking revenge"...it all started when I "hit them back"--- their lies are excused because they knew I was going to lie. DUH? WTF? There is no logic or reason or truth in an N or a P or an N/P. There is a great forum called thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org It is great! Lots of support, iinformation and education about these two disorders which are more alike than not, but Psychopath is the worst, and if they are N & P they are the very worst. No conscience and think they are "god"--no rules apply to them. Great cons. I don't really know how to explain it all--but somehow the "switch" has turned and there is nothing that they can say that makes me feel sorry for them, or that they are honest in any way. I know my mom is "snowed" for sure, and that she is "buying into" the game. I also know that there is no way I can protect her from them if she doesn't "want" to be. Accepting that her only grandson is a psychopath, and "bound for hell fire and brimstone when he dies" because he cannot/willnot repent or care that he has killed a girl, manipulated his friends and family, etc. Mom is so near the end of her life she has become "hyper-religious" and that is the most important thing in her thoughts is "saving his soul"--I don't think he has a "soul" as far as the conventional thought of a "soul" is--maybe he is the personafication of EVIL--but I am at a point I am not going to ruin the rest of my life tilting and jousting at windmills---but neither will I stand there and let them continue to stab me. Had a great day on the river, and now time for beddie bye for this tired old woman's bones--even my fingernails and hair are "tired and sore!" Great day!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 45 (view)

dating a bit of a party girl. am I paranoid or are these red flags? Posted: 5/19/2007 5:41:55 AM
Kevin in msg#34--where you say something on how things are going after your first post, you seem to me to be sort of "back peddling" on your first post. She has a party and you are "extremely put out" that she didn't invite you--and this is what you consider a "friend" much less a "girl friend"--someone I suppose you are sleeping with? Believe me, when my "friends" have a party and dont' invite me, I figure it is because they don't want to be with me. If the person I am sleeping with has a party and doesn't invite me--"Or at least call" ??? COME ON NOW! Get real, Kevin. You sound like a nice guy, but if you are buying this treatment how would you get a clue? If she had a wedding and didn't invite you would you get the hint? This bimbo is using you. I think it is a good idea like you said to "create some natural distance"--like about 1,000 miles!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 167 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/19/2007 5:34:45 AM
Alexandira gal! Thanks, just send the plane loads into the the airport, I'll go run the cows that are grazing there off the runway and back into the pasture. You said so eloquently what I was trying to make a little humerous. I have never indicated that people with personality disorders (which I think are partly hereditary from what is coming out in researh now) should be burned at the stake or have to wear a bell around their necks and warn people on t he street to stay away from them. Life is NOT fair, not everyone gets an "equal" break in life. Those bad breaks in life, whether physical or mental , are just "facts of life." Some people "get all t he luck"--brains, beauty, money, health etc. and others are born poor, mentally retarded, unhealthy, crippled etc. and I am sure these people wish they had "all the luck" as well--but they didn't. It's life. Because people with personality disorders GENERALLY, not always, have relationship problems; just like many alcholics, drug addicts, people who are mentally retarded, people with assorted serious mental illnesses (which are generally treatable), serial killers, bank robbers, etc. may have "relationship problems" --whether it is their choice or their genetics or a combination of the two, I am not looking to find me an "emotional fix-er upper" to repair. If I have made some emotional investment before I find out (been there, done that, got the tee shirt) believe me at the first hint that someone is "relationship challenged" I am OUTTA THERE. Your question about cancer is a good one. I think I would be much more inclined to start a relationship with someone who currently had cancer than with someone with a personality disorder. One of the happiest marriages I know, the groom had his implanted chemo drip the day they got married, and it was a "tough" go for a while, but I think she would tell you it was worth it. They had only been dating about a month when he was diagnosed, and she stuck by him. A physical illness in someone you care for is much easier to deal with than irratic, irrational or even mean-acting behavior. I realize that people with personality disorders have difficulty controlling their BEHAVIOR, but it isn't that they CAN'T--they aren't delusional or "crazy" to use the non technical term, they "go with their emotions" rather than chosing to control their behavior (again, as a general rule). There have been times in my life I have emotionally wanted to kill someone--but I didn't do that because I controlled my behavior in spite of my emotions. There have been times when I was so angry at my late husband I wanted to say to him "I hate you"--but I controlled my behavior and I did NOT say something that I knew would crush his heart just because I felt like it. We all, as human beings, have emotions that we would LIKE to express in words or behaviors that are inappropriate. We refrain from saying/doing these things because we have learned that if we do them there are CONSEQUENCES to this type of speech or behavior. We restrain ourselves because we realize this. If a person chooses not to restrain themselves then there are consequences, and one of the consequences of being "relationship challenged" is that you drive people away from you. To say that I have a "disorder" and therefore I am not "responsible" for my behavior is using this as a crutch. I raised an ADHD kid, without drugs, and even though he was VERY hyper, he was expected to be polite, and to behave himself just like any other kid. I have had parents of ADHD kids that would use it as an excuse, "Well, what do you expect, that he not hit the teacher, or not throw his chair in the classroom, the poor baby is ADHD after all." That didn't wash when I was raising my son, and that didn't wash with patients either as far as I am concerned. Yes a personality disorder is a "challenge" but it is not a challenge that cannot be overcome IF THE PERSON IS MOTIVATED to do so. I have a son who is a psychopathic personality disorder. He killed a girl. He is in prison. Yes, he has a "disability" he has no conscience, but he is where he belongs, and I will do my best to see that h e stays there for the rest of his natural life. There are consequences to behaviors. He deserves the consequences he is getting. He chose his path in life, and it is a complete waste. He threw away lots of "chances"--and there are plenty of psychopaths who are on the "outside" and will never go to prison, who actually don't do criminal things, BUT few if any of them have good relationships of any kind, though some are ruthless "success" stories in politics and industry. Some are also homeless winos livng under a bridge. There is some hereditary links too, my biological father is one, he is extremely wealthy and so is a financial "success" in some people's eyes and in his particular industry is an inovator but personally, he is the single most evil person I have ever heard of including Charlie Manson. My son, who has never met him, has the same facial expressions when he is on a rage or a rant. Coincidence? I think not, I think it is in the genes as well as partly learned, --but even my son can "behave" him self when he "wants to"--or when he "chooses to"--he can be one of the most charming con men I know, but he has never had a successful relationship with a single human being since age 11. I'll take a nice guy with cancer anytime over a person with a personality disorder.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 165 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/18/2007 10:37:46 PM
Well, while I realize that none of us are perfect, and we all have "problems" of one sort or another, and no one is 100% "well adjusted"--that having been said, I am still not interested in becoming involved with anyone with a "personality disorder." I have had enough of this in my life from blood relatives that I no longer have anything to do with, why in goodness name would I want to get involved with anyone who is "relationship challenged?" People who have these disorders do have a problem with relationships, at best. I admire the few people (percentage wise) with personality disorders who do recognize that they do have a problem and get some help (such as is available) for their problems. I also realize that alcoholism and drug addiction are partly genetic, but these also cause "relationship" problems and I am not interested in becoming involved with them either. I realize that some people have been born with an IQ of 40 and can barely feed themselves. It is a problem for them. But why would I seek out a person such as this and want to date them? It isn't their fault they got a lousy gene or two which causes them horrible untreatable problems. They are also people and "deserve love too"--but I am not i nterested in dating or marry one of these people. Doesn't mean I am going to kick them when I walk by either. I have empathy for people who have little or no chance of having a close, loving and caring relationship. LIKE ME. I am a 60 yr old widowed female who lives in the boonies of Arkansas...what are the chances for me to find a "loving and caring relationship?" Zilch, zero, nada, none, very little--like winning the lottery maybe, 1 in 13,000,000? I deserve love too, so if you think because I deserve love, some of you 30 year old hunks would like to marry me send me an e mail. No? Well, why not? Don't you think we would have a great relationship? I do deserve love too! It ISN'T FAIR that I don't have a good looking wonderful young stud to warm my bed. Just because I am 60 and don't look so good anymore, like I did when I was 20 is no excuse for you to not want to marry me. I am "looks challenged" when compared to all those young things you do date and have relationships with....so BE FAIR to me--OR ELSE....

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 27 (view)

Is American Society becoming over-analytical? Posted: 5/18/2007 10:22:57 PM
Public policy is decided on a "popularity contest" rather than on logic. Policies are made that are "one size, fits no one." The "baby is thrown out with the bath water" and sending home 6 yr old kids out of first grade for "sexual harassment" is stupidity. There has to be some "reason" applied in the implementation of policies. Everyone seems to be afraid to take a "reasonable stand" or to make a decision. I am so tired of the stupidity of it all...I wish I could bury my head in the sand like the mythical ostrich sometimes. People, courts, politicians, public employees, make "decisions" based on emotion rather than good sense. Or they fail to take a stand at all. Recently everyone got on the Ethenol band wagon. Ethenol is no cheaper to produce than gasoline, but it is the "tree hugger" thing to do. So now all the farmers are growing corn to produce it, gas has not gone down, the supply is not better, but it has raised the price of food by 14.9%--DUH? Make sense? Nope, not to me. There are many viable "green" energy things that people can do, there are many good and reasonably priced ways to produce alternative energy that are NOT being used enough, or in some cases, at all. I could go on and on, but would get on a rant, raise my blood pressure and use up some of the scarce medical care--can't afford to get on to the horrible uses of medical care for terminal patients that would be much more comfortable if left to die when God intended not when the family/physician had tortured them on machines for weeks, months or years, when there are other people needing BASIC medical care that can be provided very cheaply and PREVENT the horrible diseases that cause the people to be eventually put on the machines before they are finally allowed to die. That is why I retired, I am TIRED of trying to fight emotion and stupidity with logic...you can't ever win.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 2347 (view)

GUYS!!! If you met the right woman, could you wait for the sex till marriage? Posted: 5/18/2007 11:08:49 AM
First off I can't believe there are over 2300 posts on this--and they are mostly redundant too...the problem I have encountered is that most guys want to have sex before they even determined whether you are "the right one" or that they even "like" you, much less love you. DUH! It isn't about "waiting for marriage" as much as it is waiting to find out your name! I would also be willing to bet in the 2300+ posts, not one person's opinion has changed by anything anyone else has said. (I have said that before on this thread too!) You guys have a blast and see if you can get it up over 1,000 pages, looks like it is going to get there before too long. I'll still keep my stance and we will agree to disagree. To me sexual intimacy is a bonding ritual between two people who love each other. I personally don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't love me enough to marry me--but then look out!

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 23 (view)

Is American Society becoming over-analytical? Posted: 5/18/2007 10:59:01 AM
Hi, Nick, thanks for askiing me to post on your new thread--been so busy lately just got around to getting here. There are several things going on IMO in society that make it at least "look like" we are over analyzing things at the very least. The expectations for "correct" behavior from children seems to have greatly changed since I grew up, and as several other posters mention, if I had behaved the way some of these kids at even early ages behave now my parents would have "beaten me black and blue" (no not really, but I would still be in my room grounded! or at the very least would have had a sound smacking on my butt!) I raised my chldren with expectations that they be civil, polite, do what they were told and said "Yes, Mam and No mam and Sir" to older people. If the older people were close family friends they were "Uncle" or "Aunt." One of my sons was severely ADHD, diagnosed, but I chose not to drug him, instead I worked with him closely, and he grew up finshed school,, etc. and expectations for his behavior were not altered because he had "a problem." I am a retired psychological professional and registered nurse practitioner. I have had mothers say to me"well, what can you expect, he is ADD.."etc. I tell them the same thing I told my son, it is not a crutch to excuse bad behavior. Because, however, I have a biological father who is a card-carrying sociopath (psychopath, anti-social personality disorder etc) I have made it my point to study the syndrome of these people--"Syndrome" is a group of symptoms that "point to" a disease or problem. The "Flu syndrome" is high fever, body aches, etc. and a person with these symptoms may be presumed to h ave the flu...however, you don't just take the "presumption" of the syndrome, but it give syou somewhere to start your investigation. It is like a theory that you either prove or disprove. Psychology is not quite as "exact" and there are not always blood tests, or radiological studies you can do to come up with a diagnosis. However, there are "syndromes" and groups of behaviors that are common to people with one psychological problem or another that point you in the direction of what is causing their problem. Dr. Robert Hare studied psychopaths for most o f his career, he did some excellent work in sorting out the syndromes that point to this "disorder." Depression is a mental ILLNESS, bi-polar disease is a mental ILLNESS. Psychopath is a DISORDER. The "difference" between a disorder and an illness (at least at this time in our medical advancement) is that while it has been adequately proven by identical twin studies that there is a great deal of genetic component in these illnesses and disorders, even if the children are NOT raised by their biological parents and the problems "learned" from them, there is also some enviornmental and/or learning as well. There are also "degrees" of any problem. Depression may be a mild form of just sadness, or the person may be so depressed that they sit there staring into space and won't even swallow food if you put it into their mouths. With many of the mental illnesses we have realized that there are transmitter problems in the neurons with some of the chemicals, so that we can now give medications that help to overcome these problems. If the person also has LEARNED a dysfunctional coping style, the medications won't help that, and are not a "fix all" take a pill and you are wonderful medication, but i t helps the basic problem, and therapy can give the people new learning to help their coping improve. With the psychopathic or narcissistic personality disorders, which has a large hereditary component--in my family I can trace what appears to be this disorder back 4 generations on my father's side. He also has 2 half sibs and 1 full sib that are "okay" and nice people--the person first off, does not see a need to be "fixed"--they perceive that they are fine and the world is out of step. There are also degrees of levels of psychopathic behaviors and attitudes. These are mitigated by intelligence, by social upbringing, socio-economic status, etc. so that while one person with severe psychopathic personality disorder from an "up scale" family may advance in the corporate world by walking up the back of others without any conscience and become CEO of Mega corporation and be a "big success" in the eyes of the world, but have a totally chaotic home and relationship life. The Narcissist, though he (more men are this than females) is totally self centered and everything is a bout HIS supply of adoration and his superiority and the rules don't apply to him, is in my opinion more "needy" than the psychopathic personality disorder. The psych0path HAS NO CONSCIENCE at all. He or she has absolutely NO REMORSE for anything they do. They are incapable of having "normal" emotions. About the only "emotion" they can feel is RAGE and ANGER. Love or caring or nurturing is beyond their capability. On an EEG which measures brain waves, they do not react "normally" to "emotionally charged" words such as Love, Cancer, etc. There is more and more hard data emerging as medical science of the brain advances that show that their brains are literally hard-wired differently than "normal" brains. The PPD child doesn't bond normally, and many of them are showing distinct signs of this by age 6 or 8, (before age 18 they are called "conduct disorder" or some other term) and they engage in risky behavior--to themselves and others. They KNOW that their behavior is not acceptable, but they don't care. Frequently they will torture or kill smaller children, animals, and engage in other behaviors such as fire setting, outright definace of authority etc. Many times these kids run away. There is also evidence that some persons who later show all the signs of PPD were "abandoned" (as perceived by the child) from birth to age 10, either by the death of a parent, divorce, illness of the child or the parent which separates them, etc. However, in looking at my own genetic back ground on my biological father's family, and I was not even acquainted with him until I reached age 17, when I went to work for him and got to know him. My own youngest biological son started showing signs of no conscience by the time he was 11. At that time, I was not aware of what a psychopath was except "a serial killer." According to Dr. Robert Hare, the PPD percentage in the general population of canada and US is 4%, in prisons it is 20%. Not all PPDs are criminals, and not all criminals are PPDs. My youngest qualifies by diagnosis as both PPS and NPD. He is also in prison, and has been except for 11 months since he was 17. He became uncontrollable at 15. When he went into prison his social interactions with authority (teachers, parents or police) were on the order of Charlie Manson, now that my son has spent his entire adult life getting aPhD in prison he has become more like Ted Bundy, who was reputed to be one of the single most charming serial killers of all time. Bundy who was a well studied psychopath used his charm of "faking" emotions to lure his victims to their deaths in many cases. My son can quote Jesus, Budda, and every religion on earth, every philosophy you can imagine in a very persusaive tone of voice and make just about anyone believe he is a sincere "repentent" murderer...however, since he realizes that I "see through" him, he has finally dropped the mask where I am concerned. Right now, even from his prison cell 400+ miles away from our family, he is attempting to gain control of my mother's estate by manipulating her emotionally. Since she is becoming overly emotional at this stage in h er life, and hyper-religious and more concerned with the "salvation of her grandson's soul" she is ripe to be manipulated by his "philosophy" of "love and forgivness"-- which makes here the "perfect patsy" for a psychopathic con. The careful planning and recruiting of confederates both inside the family and out is a long convoluted story, and if I didn't know the truth of the matter I wouldn't believe it myself. This absolute "sincerity" and "kindness" that can be faked by these people is literally unbelievable unless you happen to know the truth. Because they have NO conscience they are able to do anything, no matter how low, underhanded, or how evil, without the slightest remorse or concern. Like Dr. Hare so ele0quently said, (Paraphrase) "With emotions they are like trying to teach a tone deaf person to sing, they can learn the words, but can't even hear the music." By watching the facial expressions and body language of people who are experiencing REAL emotins, they learn to imitate these to great advantage when they are conning some one. However, the odd part of it is though, that if you actually CATCH them in a lie, they will DENY DENY DENY (all very calmly) in the face of irrefutible evidence. The first episode of this I saw with my son was when he was about 11 and he stole a check out of my purse and some money and traded these to a boy at his school who had a walkman radio that my son wanted and we couldn't afford at the time. The boy's parents saw their son's radio was gone and asked him about it, and he told them the truth. They came to my house with their son, the check and a few dollars that my son had given their son for the radio. We all sat down in the living room, the boy, his parents, and me and my son. HERE IS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE, and yet, my son NEVER ADMITTED THE TRUTH--- Even after he had murdered a 17 year old girl, put the gun he did it with under his mattress where the police found it, and was tape recorded telling s omeone where the body was and asking them to move it---he still DENIED DENIED DENIED to me and my family that he was guilty. Recently for the FIRST time, in 15 years since the crime he admitted to me that he had done it. I actually think that he was admitting it in an effort to scare me so I would be afraid to cross him. Well, I am afraid--at least I have a reasonable amount of fear because I know he is capable of anything. However, I am not going to let that fear paralyze me or make me quit living or doing what I know is right. I do know that I am at the top of his "people I'd like to kill" list, and I know he has friends on the outside that might be willing for whatever he promises them (money from my will or his grandmother's will?) to help him out with taking care of "offing" me. Most people don't want to believe that their father, brother, sister, mother, son, daughter, etc. could REALLY be this type of person. A genuine psychopath capable of anything. Or a completely selfish Narcissist, but like Dr. Hare says, 4% of the general population qualify for the diagnosis of PPD. Not all PPDs are willing to be murders because they might fear getting caught and that fear of getting caught might slow them down. My own little darling, like his grandfather before him, is quite capable of ANYthing...for revenge if not gain. These people generally pick on the "nice" and "naive" and "gullible" people who are willing to "help" anyone...they are the best and most available suckers for the con. Just as the wolf picks out instinctivly the weak, young, 0ld or sick member of the herd to home in on, so does the psychopath. Unfortunately for my son, I have had his "number" for a number of years and I am not g oing to fall for his con no matter how smooth he is. I laugh when I remember once when he was 17, he had been arrested (I had called the cops and h ad him arrested for grand theft) but the cops were going to release him to his parents. When my husband and I got to the p olice station, the officer brought him downstairs to go home with us and my son looked at me and said, "what thej fvck took you so long?" I turned to the officer and said, "There has been a terrible mistake, officer, this young man looks a lot like my son but MY son would not speak to me that way, take this young man back up stairs." Then my husband and I turned and walked out. When I got home, my son called, crying and said "Mom, why did you leave me here?" He just totally didn't get it. A couple of weeks later when I did agree to take him back into my home, only on condition that he have an electronic monitor on, he cut the monitor off, stole a motorcycle and fled the state...only to be brought back and put into jail, of course. My worst mistake has been that I did not refuse to take him back at all when he was 17. I should have walked out of the p olice station and never looked back. If I knew then what I know now (hind sight is 20:20) I would have. I can't undo that because it is in the past, but I don't have to have anything more to do with him in the future. Except, I will be at his every parole hearing begging the parole board to NOT let him back out on the street to kill again. I have also made a DVD of this "speech to the parole board" and he knows I have one, and if I am dead, that the DVD will be there in my place. So whatever money he manages to get my little senile over-emotional mother to leave him, he can spend at the rate of $150 a month in the commissary of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. Hopefully in solitary confinement. I lau

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 447 (view)

What Kills Me Posted: 5/18/2007 8:55:20 AM
tkdBlake93--in message #450-- you suggested the "overseas bride agencies" for guys if on-line doesn't work or real life here in US doesn't work. I know several guys who did the "mail order" or "go pick one out" bride in Europe routes, and they were all dismal failures. The desperation of these women in trying to get a man to "pick them" and move them from "hell on earth" to "the land of milk and honey" is pathetic. I'm not saying that these marriages never work out, but most of the time these poor women would marry The Hunchback of Notra Dame if he would move them to the US, and they'd stay with him until they could get their permanent green card. There are some OLD guys (at the time they were 65+) who lived on welfare in shacks up in the Arkansas hills north of me. One of them got him a mail order bride from the Philipines, a tiny little girl maybe 25. He was as grizzly an old coot as you can imagine, and I bet he bathed once a month whether he "needed it or not"--then another got him one, and so on until there were several of these guys with their tiny little wives in the area. Then in a few years the women turn up at the clinic with babies. I know living standards vary, and maybe these women improved their status from where they came from. I still find it very sad that women have to marry someone 40+ years older than they are and living on welfare in backwoods conditions in order to "improve" their circumstances. I can understand the guy's point of view in this thing, here's an old coot that couldn't get a "date" with a $100 bill in America and somehow he saved up enough to buy him a young cutie from over seas who is so subserviant she walks 3 feet behind him, doesn't speak the language so will be content to stay with him, so he got a great deal. I first saw these women in our rural area probably 18 years ago, the old men are all either dead now or at least feeble enough they aren't out in public any more. I occasionally see one of the women in town, Americanized some now and speaking English and a few of them have married younger men, so I imagine the old man died and she "upgraded" a bit (in some cases quite a bit) The Russian Brides I know about though, are an entirely different story. They came here speaking a bit of English with an education, most younger 25-35, a few with kids, but most stayed married exactly long enough to get their permanent card, a job, acclimate to the area and then a divorce from her much older husband. These guys were all "shocked" when she marched off on her own...but we were so "happy" was their cry. They just didn't seem to get it at all. I do know one very young pretty Russian bride who married an American in Russia that worked for an oil company. He finally retired at 55 moved home and bought some land and became "a gentleman farmer"--actually this man is an overbearing a$$hole and treats his wife like a slave, but they were married for 5 yrs in Russian before they moved here. They are living in Rural Arkansas where she has no friends and is very lonely. She's a city girl and hates it in the country. I am not sure how long the marriage (if you can call it that) will last before she up and leaves. For her sake, I hope it is soon. I actually think she loves the guy, but he treats her like dirt so she may get wise soon. A lovely Mexican lady I knew married a much older jerk, and actually did love him. I knew her well, but he treated her so poorly (no beatings or anything, just being an overbearing jacka$$) until after 11 years she "got wise" and left him. He just wanted a wife to be "a gadget that you screw on the bed and it does your cooking and housework for you" Now, at 75 (he is in quite fit and good physical condition) he is desperate to find another woman to fill her place--without strings of course, this woman should do it all for FREE and not expect marriage or support. Good luck in him finding one. Oh, and of course she must be young and beautiful.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 487 (view)

MY SOAP OPERA CONTINUES-TODAY'S INSTALLMENT Posted: 5/17/2007 2:01:37 PM
I hope Jerry springer is not on this list and doesn't contact me or any of the rest of us for that matter to "star" on his show--but I think most of us would make the "dysfunctional" people that do star on his show look "tame" by comparison to the stories we could tell...more unbelievable than being "abducted by aliens." I found out today that my very own narcissistic psychopath who is fortunately in prison (and has a cell phone, but the warden has not yet been able to find it) has been on the internet with my late husband's SS# "managing" my address book on my phone--I am kind of an dummy about what is possible with cell phones, etc. and that is the reason that my "addresses" have been suddenly disappearing, and that was why my cell service for our whole "family network" of 5 phones was turned completely off and we had to reinstate it and put another pass word on there rather than just my late husband's SS#--we had never set up an on line account to monitor our service or make any changes, but there was one, and it had a password we could not access it by..because we didn't know it. His ex-convict buddy that had infiltrated our family and had become my mother's MUCH LOVED care giver (especially since she bought him a car) I found is STILL in our small rural community even though there is a restraining order on him to keep away from the entire family. I found proof of then at the post office. I also found out from the post office--now the only way to find someone's forwarding address is to address a letter to them at their OLD address, and put a HIGHLIGHTED NOTE under your return address and say "RETURN REQUESTED (Plus) ADDRESS SERVICE REQUESTED." Then your letter sent to them (in my case an empty envelope) will be returned to you with a yellow sticky on it with their new address. My daughter-in-law (my oldest son's internet bride) is picking up the mail with the key to that box and was seen doing so by the post master. (In violation of the non contact order which prohibited even contact by telephone etc.) How could she get the key if the box was opened after the no-contact restraining order was issued by the judge.? My oldest son was also seen by a neighbor with the criminal at a rental house of mine in another county after the no contact order was issued. People who don't believe that these people are resourceful and malicious and quite willing to destroy you in every way they can, including murder if necessary, have just never had to deal with one. Even in a community, a small community, where I am well known and respected by everyone, it is taking a toll on my reputation and my veracity to be going around telling people that this guy is "out to get me" and that my oldest son is in "cahoots with him"--people who have known me to be a truthful and sane individual, a pillar of the commuinty for my entire life are looking at me as if I had told them I had been "abducted by aliens" and that my oldest son and this criminal are "aliens in disguise." So if this person is on the stand appearing to be "mr Nice Guy" and making you out to be a "crazy deluded paranoid crank" you are NOT ALONE. This is SOP--standard operating procedure-- for these folks. It literally drives you "crazy" and makes you "insane" to be telling the absolute truth, and they are calmly telling absolute lies, and people believe them. A normal person gets "upset" when a lie is told about them, but these people having no normal emotions can remain calm, collected and appearing rational while they destroy your life. They appear to be so "Kind" and "thoughtful"--so concerned about your insanity, because they do love you if you weren't so insane that they had to stop you from hurting your children and then....where is the puke emoticon when I need it.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 483 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/17/2007 10:16:17 AM
Jeanie--my son, who is in prison for a cold premeditated murder has also found Jesus, and Budda and every other "good" person or divinity on earth or in heaven--he really should get his own television show as a "tele-evangelist. He is sooooo convincing--unless you happen to be there when the "mask" drops off and you can see Charlie Manson's eyes looking out. He is not only a narcissist but a psychopath. The big bad DOUBLE WHAMMY. He is currently ,even from his prison cell 400+ miles away, trying to take control of my mther's estate (even before she is dead). He has recruited the entire family "against" me (her only daughter) to help him in this quest for "the holy grail" of money. I am at this point in time literally afraid for my life. I realize that these people are the personification of EVIL and can be capable of anything. My N/P son has already proven he is capable of murder.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 464 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/16/2007 8:58:43 PM
Parula and others, thanks. Dr. Robert Hare, PhD, who is probably the expert in this disorder along with psychopathic personality disorder states that about 4% of the population are Psychopathic (this means without conscience) and that 20% of the inmate population in the US qualify as psychopathic. Though NPD and PPD are not totally identical, the similarity is so close that for the lay person who is not having to make a profile on one of these people is "closel enough for government work"-- Not all criminals are sociopathic/narcissistic/psychopathic and not all sociopaths/narcissistic/psychopathics are law breakers and wind up in prison. There is a strong coorelation with heredity in these people, many twins raised in separate homes show about an 80% coorelation. I.e. if one identical twin is, then 80% of the time the other one will be as well. The environmental "factor" is more what determines if they wind up in prison or on the board of directors of some big company. A person from a low background financially and socially is more apt to wind up i n prison than a sociopath born in a higher income, better educated, more socially exclusive than the guy from the ghetto because daddy can buy him out of trouble, get him through a "good" college, etc. and he will learn better more socially acceptable social skills from his "up scale" family. Sociopaths/narcissists/psychopaths range in IQ from really really stupid to really really SMART! Those that are really smart are the most dangerous because they can learn to FAKE emotions better than any actor on a stage. The only thing even close to an emotion that they feel is RAGE and ANGER and GUILE. They love "risk taking" because it gets them a "fix" of adrenelin and a "rush" of getting away with something. They are as close to pure evil as a human can get. Some are as crass and "easily" identifiable as Charlie Manson, and some are as slick and socially adept as Ted Bundy who was known for his charm and social skills. He used his charm to con his victims into "helping him" and they would get into his car, and DIE! Charlie was a bit more crude and just dropped in on Sharon Tate and her friends, or got his "family" to do the actual killing for him, almost at random. No finese at all. For those of you who seem to think that we are just a bunch of "judgmental know it alls" indiscrimently "labeling" people, then you may never have had the pleasure to interact with this kind of MONSTER. I would like to say, "I hope you meet one," but I am not the kind of person who would wish one of these people on my worst enemy. These people wreck lives, they destroy careers, they financially and emotionally devestate people, they warp the lives of their children and their spouses, they murder, rape, they stalk, seek revenge on people who have "rejected" them, they are pedophiles, they are wife/husband abusers, they are cons, they are gang members, or they act alone in secret, they are the "nice guy" next door, or they may be the cop that beats Rodney King, or they may be the guys who burn a poor homosexual kid and hang his body on a fence post, or they may be your uncle, or your father, or your lover. They believe that they are so superior to the rest of us mortals that the "rules" don't apply to them, because they are "better" and they deserve things. No one else counts. There is NO way to "cure" or fix these people because they don't want to be "fixed" because they think there is nothing wrong with the way they are, it is the rest of society that is off base. They know that what they do is "wrong" or "illegal" but they don't care, because the rules don't apply to them...they are special. The only way you can defend yourself from these people is to RUN and STAY away. No matter how they are "related to you" or how much you "love them." There is no other defense and if you allow them to talk you into coming back, you are the sheep walking into the lion's den.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 232 (view)

Pathological Liars Posted: 5/16/2007 11:39:38 AM
Justme, there are people with "personality disorders" who actually have a brain that is hard-wired to the point that they are unable to change, they are unwilling to change, the world is out of step with them, not the other way round. The fact that you "made up stories to sound interesting" is called confabulation, and though those stories were not "true," they do not even approach "pathological lying." The person who is a pathological liar has no conscience, and in addition, pathological lying is a SYMPTOM of the REAL problem, which is most likely either Narcisisitic Personality Disorder, Psychopathic Personality disorder (also called sociopath, or anti-social personality disorder) Children, insecure people, and older slightly demented individuals will "confabulate' to make their life seem "interesting" and to get people to notice them. this can be a sign of insecurity, low self esteem, slight dementia in an older person, or many other things, but i t is NOT pathological lying. I am so glad that you were able to see a need to get help, see a therapist and to find your spirituality. Those are all wonderful things and you saw a need, and took steps to fix the problem. Good on you! Peace and blessings for a better life. I applaud you very much. That is what more of us should do, instead of denying that we have a problem. (And therefore if there is no problem, we don't need fixing.) Congratulations on taking the steps to make your life better and those of your friends and family's.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 162 (view)

Ever date someone with BPD? (Borderline Personality Disorder) Posted: 5/16/2007 11:26:25 AM
MadSnorker, as far as "generalizing"--I know that most still-drinking alcoholics are not good chances for a stable relationship either, and I know that these people are "just people" and have the same rights as a person that I do. I know that they have a genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol (so it is not entirely their "fault" that they are alcoholics) however, I am also not looking to have a relationship with ANY alcoholic unless they have been sober a decade or more. So if that is making them feel disrespected by me then I am quite sorry about that. It is my considered opinon, and my professional experience as a psychological medical professional and my personal experience dealing with people with diagnosed BPD that I do not want to have relationships with these people because every interaction I have had with them has been negative. I have treated some people with BDP and additionally bi-polar, and they have been improved markedly with medication for the bi-polar aspect, but their lives generally continued in a chaotic manner. Why would I want to become involved with any person who does not have at least a stable background. As far as I know, I can be as selective as I want in who I become personally involved with. I may only want to have friends who have green eyes, or red hair. Is that "unfair" of me? Is it "immoral" of me to eliminate everyone from my circle of intimacy unless they hae red hair or green eyes? Since I am not a corporation that is required to hire people not based on gender, age, race, etc. I think I am allowed to choose my friends from whatever criteria I set. If I choose to eliminate anyone from consideration as a potential date, for whatever reason I choose, I don't see how that disrespects anyone or makes them feel bad. I also eliminate "homocidal ex-convicts" too, or bank robbers, or drug addicts or people with HIV. I don't walk by and kick them on the street, but I am not interested in dating them or having them for friends.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 453 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/16/2007 11:14:43 AM
Wildeyes, glad that you are feeling better there is life after a narcissist, believe it or not! "Life is a tough teacher, she gives the test first, and then the lesson" The only thing I can say is that now that you have paid your "tuition" in this course, learn the rest about the people like this, how charming they can be, and how toxic. Learn to recognize the warning signs, the red flags, and at the first sign of one RUN as fast as you can. No second chances. Solid boundaries carved in stone, and the first time anyone crosses these boundaries of unacceptable behavior, RUN and don't look back. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. It never ever pays to ignore your gut or a red flag. There are several of us here on this forum that you m ay e mail privately if you would like for some follow up, advice or just to vent. Feel free to contact us.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 162 (view)

I'm better than YOU/ YOU'RE better than me, so we can't date?? Posted: 5/15/2007 8:57:00 PM
Blindedbylust, if you think "$75,000 a year" will give her an extravagant lifestyle, which 3rd world country is she living in? I want to move there. Yes, we have a "caste" system, we all acknowledge this. India has one, England has one, most countries have them of one sort or another, either openly or not openly acknowledged. Since we are a "Democracy" we are NOT SUPPOSED to have one, but we all know we do. It is easier to move from one caste to a higher one or a lower one depending on job, education, social skills, money, etc. Just because a kid is born into a "lower middle class" pseudo-caste doesn't mean if he is smart, hard working, etc. he can't manage to get an education and move up a notch or two. He isn't likely to move up into the "high society old money" caste unless he manages to accidently marry a member of that caste, but it happens. I've heard the old saying "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in 3 generations." The family starts off "lower middle class" or "working poor" in the first generation, and the second generation scratches and struggles and becomes a "professional suit and tie guy" but his son goes back to working for a wage in a factory in a short sleeved shirt. Bill Clinton is a good example of a "trashy" (as we say in the south) lower middle class family who got to the white house on his smarts and excessive charm--of course he embarassed us in Arkansas no end when he became the example of the "Best of Jerry Springer goes to the white house". Doesn't make any difference how much money he makes or how famous, his behavior still bespeaks his trashy background and morals. Yet, he is still considered "upper class"-- Bill Gates "made a pile" and is now one of the richest men in the world. He stepped up a bunch of notches because of money and smarts. Quite frankly, the caste system isn't generally all that out of step with what people expect or want or we wouldn't have it. Written or unwritten. It just IS reality. Doesn't mean we have to subscribe to it. People are "equal" to me in the sight of God and should be in the sight of the law (that is controvercial though so we won't argue th at one) but there equality ends. Some people are smarter, more fit, younger, older, more educated, have more money, etc. Doesn't' mean they are not due respect as a human. Doesn't mean I want to marry a derelict alcoholic who lives on a street corner, but doesn't mean I am going to kick him as I walk by either. Am I better than him in the eyes of God? No! Did I make different choices than him? Probably. Did I have different chances than he did. Probably yes as well. I used to work for a doctor who was from India. He openly exercised 'caste' discrimination with his patients in the clinic. It stunk and I transferred out as quickly as I could. I don't treat a poor patient or a rich one any different. He did, but that was his culture. I didn't like it. But looking for a mate is a different ball game than treating everyone equally in a medical clinic, or in the voting booth, or at a bar of law.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 155 (view)

I'm better than YOU/ YOU'RE better than me, so we can't date?? Posted: 5/15/2007 2:16:43 PM
Defining the "concept" of "better" or "not as good" I think is subjective, not objective, and what measure you use as well. Is someone with more money "better" than me? They have more money than I do. In most instances if a "millionaire" corresponded with me, I would think that because he has infinitely more money than I do, all other things being equal, our lifestyles probably wouldn't match. But more money doesn't equal "better" or superior to me, because I have known many of the super-rich in my life time, and most of them were emotionally and morally poverty stricken. The more money didn't buy happiness. Is someone "better" than me who is "more handsome/beautiful?" They may be appealing to more people than I might be, if it is a given that all other things are equal. But outward beauty alone is not usually a good criteria to choose our lovers--in the end we all end up looking like Yoda anyway, so personality counts too. I have know some of the outstanding beauties of our century as well, and their looks were not what bought them happiness if they had it, and many, for example Marilyn Monroe and Ana Nichole Smith, their "desirability" based on looks and "chemistry" didn't buy them happiness. Looks and/or money can buy you "fame" in the "big leagues" but not happiness. Good looking people can be very undesirable for other reasons, and rich people can be very undesirable for other reasons than money, and people who might be far from "handsome or beautiful" in a "conventional media' sense be very happy and good people. Hell, look at Diana and Charles and how unhappy and f-cked up they were as a couple. He is much happier I would think with his current wife who is surely no great beauty. It is a shame that his "position" in life made him have to marry a very beautiful woman who was seriously emotionally messed up that he did not love. Their loveless relationship caused great trauma and heartbreak for them both. Since I don't have an "inferiority" complex because others have more money than me, or are smarter, have more toys, etc. I don't have to feel that someone is "beneath" me or that I am not "in the league" with someone else. I don't have to feel that because someone is more beautiful than I am now at 60- that I should feel "inferior" to them. I've had my days of "glory" in the sun as a beautiful girl and enjoyed it, but I'm a much better PERSON now than I was then.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 49 (view)

How's Your Memory these days? Posted: 5/15/2007 7:45:42 AM
I have a photographic memory--I just don't have same-day service.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 450 (view)

Anyone Ever Dated A TRUE Narcissist? Posted: 5/15/2007 7:39:28 AM
It it is any consolation to you, the "mail order brides" from Russia that I have known about will give him a "run for his money"--everyone that I have heard about was a coniving WITCH!! So, he may just be biting off more than he can chew! KARMA RULES! I hope you keep up with that story, in about a year after she gets here, you may be able to have a goooooood laugh over that one! There is a forum called thepsychopath dot freeforums dot org that is a great forum dedicated to narcissists and psychopaths (they are usually one and the same person) go there and register for free and READ and educate yourself about these people. Unfortunately there is something in our (victim) make ups that attracts them so you need to ARM yourself with the best ammunition to fight them--KNOWLEDGE. My biological father is one, and I gave birth to one so even though I know them well, I am surrounded by them...well, at least until I did the NO CONTACT boundary--it is the only one that works.

oxdrover

Joined: 7/20/2006

Msg: 217 (view)

Pathological Liars Posted: 5/14/2007 3:15:42 PM
The following techniques are quite good in watching for lies. If the person is also a psychopath, however, even a lie detector may not actually pick up their lies, because they are so "unemotional" about them and "feel no guilt"-- One poster asked if you should ask a lot of questions. that is a good question. I wouldn't "cross examine them" per se, but anytime I am talking to someone I don't know well, I kind of make a mental "check list" and watch--the pathological liar will lie about "anything' even unimportant stuff, so if you catch them in ANY lie, in MHO, that is IT-out the door. Introduction to Detecting Lies: The following techniques to telling if someone is lying are often used by police, and security experts. This knowledge is also useful for managers, employers, and for anyone to use in everyday situations where telling the truth from a lie can help prevent you from being a victim of fraud/scams and other deceptions. Warning: Sometimes Ignorance is bliss; after gaining this knowledge, you may be hurt when it is obvious that someone is lying to you. Signs of Deception: Body Language of Lies: • A person who is lying to you will avoid making eye contact. • Physical expression will be limited and stiff, with few arm and hand movements. Hand, arm and leg movement are toward their own body the liar takes up less space. • Hands touching their face, throat & mouth. Touching or scratching the nose or behind their ear. Not likely to touch his chest/heart with an open hand. Emotional Gestures & Contradiction • Timing and duration of emotional gestures and emotions are off a normal pace. The display of emotion is delayed, stays longer it would naturally, then stops suddenly. • Timing is off between emotions gestures/expressions and words. Example: Someone says "I love it!" when receiving a gift, and then smile after making that statement, rather then at the same time the statement is made. • Gestures/expressions don’t match the verbal statement, such as frowning when saying “I love you.” • Expressions are limited to mouth movements when someone is faking emotions (like happy, surprised, sad, awe, )instead of the whole face. For example; when someone smiles naturally their whole face is involved: jaw/cheek movement, eyes and forehead push down, etc. Interactions and Reactions • A guilty person gets defensive. An innocent person will often go on the offensive. • A liar is uncomfortable facing his questioner/accuser and may turn his head or body away. • A liar might unconsciously place objects (book, coffee cup, etc.) between themselves and you. Verbal Context and Content • A liar will use your words to make answer a question. When asked, “Did you eat the last cookie?” The liar answers, “No, I did not eat the last cookie.” •A statement with a contraction is more likely to be truthful: “ I didn't do it” instead of “I did not do it” • Liars sometimes avoid "lying" by not making direct statements. They imply answers instead of denying something directly. • The guilty may speak more than natural, adding unnecessary details to convince you... they are not comfortable with silence or pauses in the conversation. • A liar may leave out pronouns and speak in a monotonous tone. When a truthful statement, is made the pronoun is emphasized as much or more than the rest of the words in a statement. • Words may be garbled and spoken softly, and syntax and grammar may be off. In other words, his sentences will likely be muddled rather than emphasized. Other signs of a lie: • If you believe someone is lying, then change subject of a conversation quickly, a liar follows along willingly and becomes more relaxed. The guilty wants the subject changed; an innocent person may be confused by the sudden change in topics and will want to back to the previous subject. • Using humor or sarcasm to avoid a subject.

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