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Author
Thread: Good and Evil
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
117 (
view
)
Good and Evil
Posted:
11/23/2009 9:21:06 AM
By your own point about Hitler causing good things, even mass murder and horrendous torture would have to be considered good, in which case, there would be parades for paedophiles and kiddy-killers.
Didn't all this happen for Alexander THE GREAT? Torture, mass murders, destruction of entire cities, slavery for women and children - Thebes, Tyre, Gaza, Massaga, Ora. Sound great to you?
Not that I condone any of this or believe that it is really good. I 'm just pointing out that standards of good and evil are extraordinarily variable - and that the two may ON OCCASION (not always!) be inextricably intertwined.
Although some feel blessed with divine insight, I have to wonder if humanity's perception of good and evil are even closely aligned with the realities of the world and that which created the world. Again, as others have pointed out, the perceived cruelties visited upon the world did not entirely originate from humanity. Evolution doesn't favor only our perception of 'good'.
It seems to me that our definitions of good and evil are more based upon what we believe best comforts and protects us rather than a realistic evaluation of how both affect our lives. Both evolution and God seem to require progress and improvement. Do we best do this by being 'good and avoiding all evil, or should we wonder if some evil has merit? Are we hiding from something essential by blinding ourselves to the realities of good and evil?
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
52 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 11:16:15 PM
Ptolemy's ideas are still alive and well, reincarnated in the Fourier transform.
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
543 (
view
)
the earth is growing
Posted:
11/20/2009 6:28:40 PM
The reason your quote is flawed, is because if the earth increased in size, but not density would mean there was no increase in mass or gravity
Perhaps it was a mistake to precis an entire website in a single sentence. My bad - I foolishly thought people may look at the original. Physicists regard the standard gravitational parameter - the product of mass and the gravitational constant - as much more constant than either G or M....
So here we can see that planetary motion shows that it's not G or M that are constant, but their product GM, and that G will only be a constant as long as Mass is constant. In fact, today we call the GM product as the standard gravitational parameter µ. It not only simplifies various gravity-related formulas, but also gives more accuracy to the results, than if one uses separate values of G and M. In fact, the product of G and the mass of the Sun is known much more accurately than either quantity alone!
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
44 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 2:30:57 PM
I take off my blindfold only to see 'MORE' than two groupings of paint on the hallway wall (an interference pattern).
I wonder if that's why many novices shut their eyes when they pull a trigger. - more chance of hitting something! (what happened to the elephant?).
1 photon fired at a double slit should just keep hitting the back wall repeatedly in the same spot, so why is it making a pattern as if it were being interfered with by another photon. Where is this 'other' photon coming from unless you accept that the same photon has gone through both slits at the same time, interfered with itself to create the pattern, then been detected on the back wall 'as the photon'.
Maybe photons travel in pairs (or halves) - or maybe they're just full of sub-photonic particles. We need a triple-slit experiment!
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
107 (
view
)
Good and Evil
Posted:
11/20/2009 2:15:42 PM
*sigh..the classic Judas-Jeasus paradox.
The point, Milton was not a paradox, but a proposition, from msg 92, that evil may beget good. Suggesting, as others in the thread have said, that evil depends upon perspective. As we should also suggest of good. Many individuals have suffered horrendously 'for their own good'. And especially for the good of their eternal souls. The problem I have with the latter is that the mass hysteria of the time supports it whereas the longer historical perspective seems to condemn it. That leaves me somewhat suspicious of those who claim special insight into 'goodliness'
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
540 (
view
)
the earth is growing
Posted:
11/20/2009 2:04:49 PM
You must all have missed the perfectly obvious explanation discussed by Xavier Borg on his website. http://www.blazelabs.com/f-u-massvariation.asp. His theory is that relativistic changes in velocities due to large scale cosmic rotations influence the locally experience environment, including mass and gravity. It renders core expansion and accretion unnecessary.
When on the next 112 million year cycle, mass starts to diminish again, Earth's density will decrease, possibly Earth itself would expand in radius, explaining why continents' coastlines are almost a perfect fit to each other, and could once cover the whole surface of a smaller earth. Animals grow taller and bigger as their muscles would be able to lift bigger bodies, and for us humans, building up temples with huge rocks, without any impossible machinery, would be like playing with blocks! Does this solve another mystery?
I didn't look through all the posts, but you must have found the official website on this topic - http://www.expanding-earth.org although they don't seem to have caught up with Borg's theories yet.
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
20 (
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Please Help with a Math Problem...$350.00 a year?
Posted:
11/20/2009 1:25:49 PM
That going to jail take was last weeks talking points.
And paying for it seems to be this week's talking point. It seems that the original idea of using savings from improved efficiency have been sunk. Today's plan is to tax cosmetic surgery, the rich and medical insurance companies. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/health/policy/19health.html & http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/health/policy/20health.html.
So all in all, the total cost of this bill to each American is less than 5% of what Americans already spends on healthcare.
But that's already an insane amount, Scorpio. My health insurance premiums are almost as much as my income taxes. Add it to my taxes and the total compares dismally with taxes (which include health care coverage) in most other countries. Look up worldwide medical insurance premiums and the US premiums come out around (usually greater than) double premiums for anywhere else in the world (for PRIVATE medical insurance). Is US healthcare twice as good as anywhere else in the world?
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
2 (
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Please Help with a Math Problem...$350.00 a year?
Posted:
11/19/2009 7:23:32 AM
Didn't the proponents say it was going to be 'no cost'? Paid for by savings in other areas - paperless records etc. Not that I'm inclined to believe all that I'm told. My premiums are already going up by $1000 next year.
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
257 (
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)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/17/2009 11:41:37 AM
What have your points about the FDA got to do with this thread? - which is about GREED. Is this just another example of your wandering, ineffective ramblings, bordering on rants? If you want to change the topic to government regulation, start another thread.
Wrong. It was performed by Dr. Robert Goetz and Dr. Michael Rohman
They took the mammary artery and connected it into the coronary artery, It failed in less than a year. Favaloro developed the bypass grafting procedure in use today.
The point on the MRI was that credit for its development was given JOINTLY by the Nobel committee, where 1 individual was not American and not working in the US. Siemens is the current leader, not just because of manufacturing, but because of INNOVATION. The point here being that you seem to be blinded with the notion that America is the best at everything without really thinking about it too clearly. Then on that questionable basis, you suggest that this overwhelming greatness is all due to a small part of the entire social infrastructure which makes America what it is today.
You may have a few valid points, but you manage to bury them so deep in insults and unsubstantiated statements that it's hard to dig them out of the piles of lesser material. Friedman and other economists may have a point on minimum wages, but that has never made a majority of the experts right. Negative taxation was one of Friedman's solutions. Not a complete abandonment of any concern for low-income jobs. He still seemed to think that the government should step in. But what has all of this got to do with the thread topic about greed?
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
32 (
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)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/17/2009 9:56:18 AM
300 deaths and over a mllion people sick in the space of two weeks seemed newsworthy to me and I wasn't hearing much about it in the news.
Sounds almost as bad as the US influenza death toll of 877 in the first week of November (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/updates/us/).
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
254 (
view
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/17/2009 9:35:28 AM
it is exhausting explaining all of this
Maybe that's because you're doing such a piss-poor job! I haven't seen much explanation from you. Just a load of unsubstantiated OPINIONS which you spew out amongst all of your derogatory comments as if they were facts.
If you spent a little more effort actually researching and - wow! - even thinking, you may save yourself a great deal of frustration.
One of your first claims was that the motivation for the formation of the airlines was greed. I called you on this and you made no effort to explain how you came upon this piece of baloney. Don't try to justify it with words at this stage - unless you are prepared to back it up with some history of how and why airlines were formed.
Your FDA argument is pure baloney. You can have NO idea how many lives have been saved by the FDA. Arguing on the one hand that the FDA delay prevented a thalidomide disaster in the US, yet on the other arguing that it slows down getting drugs to people.
It is a documented fact that your beloved FDA regulations KILL REAL PEOPLE every. single. day.
So give us some links to the statistics and 'documented fact' to back up your assertion. An who on earth said the FDA was 'beloved'? There seems to be a feeling that there is plenty of room for improvement in many areas of government. That isn't automatic reason for abandoning it completely.
US tax payers foot the majority of the bill for national defense of the entire developed world.
Um - you need regulation of the entire world - but not the US?????
I am NOT a blind patriot
Sorry, I'm not even convinced that this is your ONLY disability. You're not making much sense to most of the folks here.
The MRI, the artificial heart, coronary artery bypass surgery, long-term heart transplants, and many many MANY other advancements in modern medicine came from our market system.
Recently, the Nobel Prize was awarded to the 'inventors' of MRI - one an American, one an Englishman (working in England). Do you have a clue what their contributions were? The best MRI machines on the market today are manufactured by the German company, Siemens. The US manufacturer, GE machines probably comes below the Dutch manufacturer, Phillips too. The first use of an implantable artificial heart was in South Africa (Christiaan Barnard). The first successful coronary by-pass was in Russia (Kolesof), then perfected in Argentina (Favaloro).
Do we have ANY reason to believe ANYTHING you say? Seems to me, unless you business is selling snake-oil, you need to do a whole lot more work on your presentation skills before you come across as a rational, convincing individual, worthy of consideration for any business you may have to offer.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
229 (
view
)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/16/2009 11:56:06 AM
Our investment market (and our mortgage market to a higher extreme) are NOT free markets.
That goes for a majority of our markets.
You also need to decide how much 'freedom' markets are allowed. Regulation is intrinsic to life. Humanity considers itself capable of some kind of directed regulation. By that, I mean it may decide upon a form of regulation based upon calculations which predict the outcome. The more common form of regulation in life would be natural selection. There, the outcome determines the consequences. which can sometimes be dire.
Exo's Tragedy of te Commons would be an example to use here. Logically, each individual makes the correct decision in overutilizing resources. Natural selection would result in resource loss and probably starvation and death until a (temporary) new equilibrium was formed. Alternatively, regulation based on the idea that the interests of a collective are not always served by the selfish interests of individuals may provide a different outcome. Recognition that group-dynamics alter self-interest requires a new definition of self-interest where the group takes precedence over individuals. You may still define it as self-interest, but this time by group-mandate which then requires regulation, thereby moving away from a 'free market system'.
The Fed and others making the laws and regulations can't be expected to be perfect, but that doesn't make regulation bad. Imperfection merely provides loopholes to be exploited by those less interested in the communal good.
On the other hand, there seem to be several companies that have done very well out of changing the Friedman goal of a business maximizing its profits to a business maximizing its value to society. Friedman argued that the two were effectively the same, but it seems to me that the latter provides much more leeway in creative ways to make a profit. Possibly not least by uplifting the general quality of life and increase the disposable incomes in a community.
If their advertising is based on word of mouth, don't you think that by raising their prices, it will hurt their reputation as a fair business
Surely this is the basis of capitalism - supply and demand. On one side, the selling price reflects the costs of manufacure and doing business. On the other, the buying price reflects the value placed upon the product by the consumer. The marketplace allows both sides to adjust their perceptions of value to a single price. The objections you raise sound more a concern for public perception that anything else. Well, public perception may have value too, but a good business would look hard at the relative values of public perception versus a higher return on production and the opportunities that presents.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
98 (
view
)
Good and Evil
Posted:
11/16/2009 10:59:35 AM
So, Mona and Son. Wasn't the crucifiction of Jesus supposed to be 'good'? Didn't he 'die to save us all'?
In order to accomplish that, didn't Judas Iscariot have to betray Jesus?
Does that make Judas's betrayal 'good'?
Would that mean betrayal is 'good'?
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
223 (
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)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/16/2009 9:23:13 AM
@mtn: Your IC may have an excess of income, so they now have choices they didn't have before. If they don't like their success... Give away the excess. Stop making hammocks until they need more money. Increase the price to decrease demand until it reduces their income. Alternatively, they could use the money creatively... Invest in more resources for the community. Loan the money to help other communities. Use the money to reach out and educate other communities (e.g., showing others how to live modestly and co-operatively). Once again, I really enjoyed Jared Diamond's book, Guns, Germs and Steel. In it, he points out that developments such as those in your IC provide opportunities and time to think, explore and invent rather than scrabble to survive. Doesn't currency make the latter easier? And doesn't money afford an opportunity to establish a value for what they do relative to the things other people may do. Is money, in its most fundamental sense anything more than a 'note', reminding you that you owe someone something - such as a piece of your time?
Caveat Emptor works; it should. Other folks are not as well educated
I accept the premise, but I don't entirely agree because of the second part of the quote. It seem depressingly easy to misdirect perception, even among the so-called 'expert' Ph.D.s employed by Bernicke to monitor the CDO/CDS issue. I've certainly been caught, fortunately not to the point of disaster. What chance does the average Joe who's brought up to have faith in the people around him have? The due diligence it takes to figure out some of these schemes is probably beyond a majority of people - and at the very least is a significant burden adding to the cost of transactions. For me, it is often a strong disincentive to enter into transactions, thereby reducing economic opportunities. Honesty seems to be one of the most undervalued economic tools that we have at our disposal.
Greed is an uncertain variable and it will manifest itself despite the effects of legislation, regulation or the law. Virtual value is created and the economy is left to compensate.
Would this be an artificial distortion of Say's Law? Garnering unneeded value removes it from the economy and deprives others of what they need. Does this create artificial demand and thus inflation? I find a vexing puzzles related to this where the accumulation of wealth provides opportunities for truly ambitious developments. Were the ancient megaliths anything more than such a project? The Pyramids, the art of medieval Florence and recent projects like Carnegie Hall and the Rockerfeller Center. For the most part, though, I haven't seen too many major developments in the world as motivated by greed. Usually, they seem to arise from a motivation to make things easier, although the opportunity to exploit less costly production processes provides others with opportunites to exploit the differential between ald and new values.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
212 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/15/2009 9:17:45 PM
Krebby - I enjoy your posts.
"information asymmetry,"
Eight syllables where one will do - "lies" - and then you go on to call for "more commonly understood language.
I have to say that I saw the other end of the CDOs in persuasive brochures to refinance my house - and to some degree in the general advice financial advisors gave to maximize mortgages and put the proceeds into the stock market. Thankfully I invoked the 'caveat emptor' clause but I could certainly see the attraction for someone motivated by the need to have the last possible scrap of all that they could gain. Could we call that greed? In that case the greed motivated people to make poor decisions which resulted in many losing much more than they stood to gain. For many caught up in that, I suspect that desperation was a factor in their decisions too.
Presumably (I wasn't in the CDS market) the CDO/CDS packaging was such that it was easy to see big profits with little risk, ignoring that the whole structure would collapse if the housing market faltered. What, other than greed motivated CDO/CDS buyers to 'invest' in something they didn't understand? Neither of these 'greeds' seem to be the one you offered. The strikes against greed are growing!
The fundamental question that I have with all of this is relationship between value and the economy. Some people seem to argue (as nipolean suggested in an earlier post) that, so long as money changed hands for profit, it was good, regardless of whether the exchange was fraudulent. Others have suggested that the relative values of the exchange are irrelevant. Looking over a historical, even evolutionary perspective, people like Jared Diamond suggest that human progress has been possible largely because the return on our efforts has improved over time. In that scenario, value is a cornerstone of economic growth and the subversion of true value by greed would presumably disrupt economic growth.
Could you also argue that greed is inflationary, since it creates an artificial demand?
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
95 (
view
)
Good and Evil
Posted:
11/15/2009 7:18:20 PM
Zeno, and Gary. It isn't so difficult to those who don't have the arrogance to assume that they know what God's priorities are. Or even if such would care about omnipotent, benevolent, and omniscient.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
29 (
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)
Circumsision and its woes.
Posted:
11/15/2009 3:50:37 PM
The biggest problem that I see is that all too often, the wrong bit gets discarded.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
9 (
view
)
Nassim Haramein
Posted:
11/15/2009 3:36:19 PM
The pyramids, megaliths etc. are quite easy. Things have been getting heavier over time The reason for that is that the gravitational constant varies over time, as in the Dirac and Brans-Dicke models. G is velocity-dependent. The rotation of the earth and orbit around the sun are super-slow compared with the velocities of larger components of the universe. So, as the earth is thrown around in this maelstrom of movement, velocities, and thus G, change dramatically depending upon the direction that things are moving in.
Lower levels of G make things lighter and easier to pick up and move around. It also allowed creatures to grow much larger without the accompanying gravitational challenges. Thus, huge dinosaurs with long necks were possible and even the giant Nephilim who could have been co-opted to build the pyramids. A changing G also accounts for changes in orbits of the planets by changing the gravitational pull.
The velocity changes would also result in dimensional changes. Even the Earth changes size as it hurtles through space at changing velocities due to the complex orbital mechanics of the universe. This would account for the observation that the earth has been growing for millennia (
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts7289734.aspx
).
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
92 (
view
)
Good and Evil
Posted:
11/15/2009 3:03:33 PM
What about evil for good's sake?
Dylan asked if Judas Iscariot had God on his side. Did he? And wasn't the outcome of his action both good, and preordained?
Was Alexander the Great really so great?
Didn't Hitler's actions result in the rebirth of Israel and the formation of the United Nations?
Is evolution evil? It results in the permanent elimination of some species. Yet their demise leaves room for other creations.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
205 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/15/2009 2:38:21 PM
Greed = Desire for excess
Excess = More than what is needed
Need = Food, shelter, clothing
Does this mean an excess of food is good? - when we're all being brainwashed into thinking that obesity is bad?
This is the entire point that I am making. That our own self-interest is interconnected with the interests of those around us.
Surely greed is about taking more than you should from other people/places/creatures. How is that acting in the best interests of others?
Men are not corrupted by the exercise of power or debased by the habit of obedience, but by the exercise of a power which they believe to be illegitimate, and by obedience to a rule which they consider to be usurped and oppressive.
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
The OP position on greed now seems to be morphing ito a discussion of self-interest which has its own multitude of interepretations. Some of which seem less oppressive than greed. Without some degree of self-interest, would there be any motivation for us to survive? It seems like, at some level, self-interest is another anthropic principle... We are only here because we expressed self-interest throughout our evolution.
To me, the greedy side of self-interest would imply that by taking more than is needed, others are being deprived of what they may need, or what they may make use of. Such greed would imply a lack of intent to take advantage of what has been gathered in excess, effectively removing it from the resource base that may be advantageously utilized by others. When you add that to the fraudulently obtained profits mentioned by Jiperly, the entire value system becomes perverted. C
R
apitalism takes over from capitalism because the basis of economy is garbage or worse. I wonder, however if this is more of a perversion of what Friedman really said. In his book,
Capitalism and Freedom
, he stated "
there is one and only one social responsibility of business–to use it resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits
so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception or fraud.
" Did he later change his mind?
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
189 (
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)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/14/2009 3:57:26 PM
Please. I am dying here. TOO MUCH TYPING O_O
Reading much more and thinking just a little may resolve many of the problems you have here.
Greed is about excess, not about survival, or even success.
Greed is about taking more than you need.
One of your first posts was asking why people work 9-5. Most do it because if they didn't, they risk losing a roof over their head and the food on their table. Read a little about feudal systems if you want to understand why some people work.
Airlines founded by greed? Where did that come from? Maybe you need to look up the history of airlines and learn a little. Do you even know what the motivation was for the first airlines?
Overall, this thread is the most attention-seeking thread I have seen here. I'd suspect that the OP is attempting to justify 'creative' ways of increasing his ability to provide for his own perceived needs (however distorted that perception may be) in ways which may be considered somewhat less than savory. Obviously, by the way he addresses and insults some posters here he is happy to find a reason to look down upon people. Are we chatting with the next Bernie Madoff?
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
6 (
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Microsoft Investigating Zero-Day Windows 7 Flaw
Posted:
11/14/2009 3:33:20 PM
Personally, I'd save the borderline (?) retarded appellation for those who rush out, buy and use a brand new product from a company that has a reputation for imperfection.
And maybe Gaffie's 'irresponsible' disclosure is because he's sick and tired of Microsoft's slower-than-molasses way of dealing with problems which they clearly prioritize below making money from sub-standard products that they don't fix for years. Nothing else works. Maybe he can embarrass them into updating their products to at least mediocre. The only thing more astonishing that the politicians people choose is their choice of digital infrastructure provider.
I can't wait for the day that Google, or Apple, or the UNIX guys pushing Ubuntu get some commercially attractive OS and start a well-deserved kicking of some sorry a$$.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
3 (
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)
Terrorism by stealth
Posted:
11/14/2009 10:03:18 AM
In the interests of the economy, we ship our chip manufacturing overseas, so foreign countries can 'adjust' them to their special needs.
In the interests of economy, we happily flock to new software versions well before the bugs have been ironed out in the previous several versions, leaving the cyber-defense community hopelessly behind in their catchup.
You have to believe that a few million dollars lost to cyber-theft is considered to be a sound investment by the powers-that-be. Or maybe the powers-that-be have been hacked and their powers of reason disabled.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
484 (
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)
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted:
11/13/2009 1:07:30 PM
Assuming the cosmologist is sane (and I make that assumption preemptively because I know Scorp will jump on it if I don't), then his information is going to becoming from sources such as other cosmologists, his own studies and observations. The mental patient...the voices in his head.
With all of these probablities flying around, you could also suggest that cosmologists seem to be statistically better at appearing to be correct than mental patients and others who hear voices. Faith in statistics??????
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
482 (
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)
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted:
11/13/2009 10:56:22 AM
Before delving into arguments of entropy, it may be useful to understand precisely what entropy is. I can't say I really understand it, but the notion of entropy as a simple measure of 'randomness' seems to be antiquated and unrealistic. Many of those who seem to be in the know now argue that entropy is a driving force FOR evolution - because complexity adds to entropy while at the same time increasing order. They certainly emphasize that entropy is NOT disorder, explaining that it was an early simplification to get the idea across.
Wicken in http://www.jstor.org/stable/2413288?seq=8 points out
The entropy of statistical-thermodynamic systems depends on microscopic
options
, not structure.
(one of many good reads on the topic of entropy driving evolution)
In Boltzmann's definition, entropy is a measure of the number of possible microscopic states (or microstates) of a system in thermodynamic equilibrium, consistent with its macroscopic thermodynamic properties (or macrostate).
. Consider a flask of the mixed gases, hydrogen and oxygen. A certain number of 'microstates may be imagined. Now, remove a few of those gas molecules, combine them together and reintroduce them as water vapor. There are fewer molecules, but can you imagine that the number of 'microstates' inreased because we introduced a third product into the system?
Perhaps that could be simplified using numbers. Take 10 molecules of oygen and 15 molecules of hydrogen. A simple expression of their 'entropy' would be that there are 10 * 15 = 150 ways to line them up. Remove 10 molecules of hydrogen and 5 of oxygen to make 10 molecules of water which we then add back. This gives up 5 molecules of hydrogen, 5 of oxygen and 10 of water. Five less molecules, but with 5 * 5 * 10 = 250 ways of lining them up. Don't we then have less
predictability
with the 'evolved' system?
Interesting to the OP is the thought that the 'faithful' adherence to an outdated and incorrect notion of a
scientific 'fact'
seems to be driving a non-argument related to evolution. Although you could argue that it isn't scientists who are at fault here.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
2769 (
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Haiku Connection - This is It !
Posted:
11/10/2009 10:27:38 PM
never touching down
always seeming out of reach
equivocating
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
2767 (
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Haiku Connection - This is It !
Posted:
11/10/2009 9:40:32 PM
better than the last
an optimistic forecast
releases the past
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
69 (
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PhD Dating and dating PhD's
Posted:
11/10/2009 12:50:21 PM
No way, C is dimensionless / O can't have units of time.
Hmmm, that's a problem, unless you can express S in seconds per inch. Not too far fetched when you think about it!
But I'm still having a problem with C. I was thinking maybe it needs to be a negative value - expressing the time interval between orgasms. Zero would be most compatible. Or maybe there'd need to be a gender adjustment. I need to think about this some more!
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
56 (
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The conciousness of water.
Posted:
11/10/2009 12:12:56 PM
"Hydrogen embrittlement."
Ya, Wikipedia heard of that too. "
However, commercially workable and safe technology exists globally in the hydrogen industry, which produces some 50 million metric tons per year.......
Steel with an ultimate tensile strength of less than 1000 MPa or hardness of less than 30 HRC are not generally considered susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. (Jewett et al.)
"
If Wikipedia doesn't work for you, other sources are available.... .eg., Hydrogen embrittlement: prevention and control By Louis Raymond. There are some clever folks around who don't let scary words like embrittlement put them off doing what has to be done.
Then, of course, there is the experience of the folks who have been running hydrogen pipelines for the past 70+ years .....
Pipeline transmission of hydrogen dates back to late 1930s. These pipelines have generally operated at less than 1,000 pounds per square inch (psi), with a good safety record. Estimates of the existing hydrogen transmission system in the United States range from about 450 to 800 miles.
From http://corridoreis.anl.gov/documents/docs/technical/APT_61012_EVS_TM_08_2.pdf. That's from the Argonne National Laboratories.
Dreams, the exploding tank was liquid hydrogen which would boil and mix rapidly with air. Especially if gallons of it dumped on the ground. Even so, it didn't seem to damage the surrounding tanks.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
51 (
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The conciousness of water.
Posted:
11/10/2009 8:36:35 AM
I didn't realize there was so much research going on related to water. Ths is a brief synopsis of some things that most people probably don't know about water - http://www.i-sis.org.uk/IsWaterSpecial.php
And here is an entire issue of Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society deoted to current research on water - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/issues/138340/ The concluding discussion debates if water is essential for life.
BTW, Dreams, there have been distribution systems for other explosive gases for almost 2 centuries - since Paris adopted gas street lighting in the early 18th century. Gas storage tanks were a part of the skyline of every town, even 50 years ago and some still stand unused since the advent of natural gas. Hydrogen doesn't really explode - it burns - as you can see from the video footage of the Hindenburg disater available if you search. It also requires a leak, or damage to the container to create a problem. A low pressure system would solve a number of the hydrogen-related problems, including fallout from the expansion of a high pressure gas storage facility. Probably less than the current risks for storing propane.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
28 (
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How front page is science?
Posted:
11/9/2009 11:16:29 PM
Yes, there are a few media enterprises with some science features. Science and Scientific American come to mind as equivalents of Nature and New Scientist the UK. The Public Broadcasting Service does some good programming too (sometimes in collaborations with the BBC), along with the Discovery channel and a few others.
I was talking more of the mainstream media which used to have specialized units to cover science - their 'science desk'. A little more 'front page' than the specialized media. MSNBC, for example seems to get most of its content from Live Science - a subdivision of TechMedia (http://www.techmedianetwork.com/index.html). CNN with contributions from wired .com and people like their own producer Doug Gross or money editor, Paul LaMonica rather than science specialists. CBS reinterprets Science as Technology and credits the Associated Press with the most scientific stories. Others are done by their own producers who cover much more than jus science.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
22 (
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Why are there 'no pyramids in Kansas '
Posted:
11/9/2009 2:08:23 PM
Maybe there were no pyramid contractors nearby- but there are quite a few other regions with ancient sites in the 'New' World....
Guns, Germs and Steel was by Jared Diamond.
A very interesting read about pre-Columbian America is Charles Mann's 1491. He really challenges (with an extensive bibliography) current notions about early America.
See also http://www.indiana.edu/~arch/saa/matrix/ia/ia03_mod_13.html, http://www.s8int.com/page38.html
Watson Brake, LA - 3000 BC
Mystery Hill, NH? - 2000 BC
Burnt Hill, MA
Gungywamp, CT - 2000 BC
Peruvian pyramids are reputed to be this old too. - 2600 BC - http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/wcjo/
The UNESCO world heritage site of Caral, Peru -
The 5000-year-old 626-hectare archaeological site of The Sacred City of Caral-Supe is situated on a dry desert terrace overlooking the green valley of the Supe river. It dates back to the Late Archaic Period of the Central Andes and is the oldest centre of civilization in the Americas.
- http://whc.unesco.org/en/news/534
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
20 (
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How front page is science?
Posted:
11/9/2009 1:14:11 PM
I heard recently that most networks & media have wound up any speialized science reporting groups, so it doesn't look like things will get better soon. It was interesting to see the page linked by Novascotialass had a suggestion that scientists should do their own promoting. If you look at the AAAS website for the 2010 meeting, they are moving along those lines too. Great! - more non-science (almost sounds like nonsense!) to keep scientists away from doing science. If you look at the AAAS website for the 2010 meeting, they are moving along those lines too. I reckon already less than 50 cents of every science research dollar goes into actual scientific research.
Perhaps, given a little more time, good journalism will be seen as worthwhile. Just as people are becoming willing to pay a little extra for organic food, A valuable niche market for 'old fashioned' news will evolve.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
4 (
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Government vs Science?
Posted:
11/7/2009 10:31:19 PM
Do you agree that scientist's views should always be respected, or do you think that scientists must respect that their advice and public statements as government advisors must be in line with government views?
Well, the first obvious point is that a government that wants advisors to be 'in line with government views' clearly doesn't need advisors. It needs puppets.
The more sinister side of this is exactly what Professor Nutt said and how what he said was distorted and manipulated by those who wanted to silence a voice of reason or merely create a sensational story to boost their audience. The current debate isn't about what Prof Nutt was trying to communicate.
But the government sacked him for coming out against drugs
Not sure what this means, but Nutt has certainly come out against drugs in all of his recent articles that I found. That means that he thinks they should be controlled and people should be discouraged from using them irresponsibly. The overall point that Nutt is trying to make is that the government should be putting efforts into saving life and limb based upon rational, scientific evaluation of risk rather than some ill-defined, feel-good, guesses designed to earn votes and campaign contributions. In another article, (http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/20/3/315) he points out that ecstacy (and horseriding) pale into insignificance against the huge lethal and social cost of alcohol and criticizes the more liberal licensing laws and lack of any education related to alcohol consumption and its excesses. Probably the real reason that he was fired was because he didn't shy away from criticizing the lawmakers he is attempting to advise.
The full article written by Nutt on the horseriding comparison is at http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/20/3/315. It is a scholarly article in a scientific (psychological) journal considering the 'psychology' of attitudes towards drugs versus other potentially dangerous / lethal recreations. It is interesting to note that a majority of those (mis)reporting the article failed to provide a citation so readers / listeners could check the story themselves.
Nutt introduces his comparison by stating:
....the arguments about relative drug harms are occurring in an arcane manner, at times taking a quasi-religious character reminiscent of medieval debates about angels and the heads of pins!
The reasons for this are multiple and complex, but one major element is that the drug debate takes place without reference to other causes of harm in society, which tends to give drugs a different, more worrying, status. In this article, I share experience of another harmful addiction I have called equasy to illustrate an approach that might lead to a more rational and broad-based assessment of relative drug harms.
Nutt defined equasy as an addiction to horseriding which apparently causes over 11,000 head injuries per year in the US.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
130 (
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Protection From Pedators
Posted:
11/4/2009 7:45:57 AM
With 50,000 plus Nova Scotians out in all their glory since October 30th, no one has been hurt at this point.
Give them time, give them time. That's not even a week. Maybe the Canadians are a bit more careful, but I've seen several reports from different states, all with double digit hunting injuries per year. It didn't take me long to find the 5 reports I posted in an earlier message.
Most hunters may not be shooting people, but a few manage it. Even Dick Cheney managed to mistake one of his fellow hunters for a quail and shot him! The point of this thread is about arming another segment of the 'outdoors' population and if such an action will save lives. If Nova Scotia is a fair sample, maybe 1 in 5,000 of those hunters will harm someone this season. If the 10,000 Toronto hikers are as 'experienced' as the hunters, you can add in at least a couple more people hurt. If they just pack a gun for protection and haven't much experience using it, especially in a tense situation (like bushes rustling at the side of the path, maybe), who knows how many people will get hurt?
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
59 (
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)
PhD Dating and dating PhD's
Posted:
11/3/2009 4:06:51 PM
OHHH!
, mtn - it sounds so much better when YOU say it!
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
57 (
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PhD Dating and dating PhD's
Posted:
11/3/2009 3:23:52 PM
"Oh..."?
Depends how they say it, I guess.....
Isn't that what they say when they're having an orgasm?
Then again...
Depends how they say it.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
6 (
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Jewelry Stores
Posted:
11/3/2009 11:52:04 AM
I'd agree with Krebby - I haven't seen a jewelery store without a locked door or guard for quite a while.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
2 (
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How front page is science?
Posted:
11/3/2009 9:20:00 AM
Science really isn't that interesting to most people. When you look at the number of degrees awarded, science and engineering are surprisingly way down on the list.
News has morphed into another means to make people look at advertising. Front page news is what will attract people to tolerate the ads that come with it. That means checking out what is being Googled most and creating a story related to it. Then,if possible, ange the story to get everyone talking (arguing) about it. TV news seems full of 'entertainment', watching polar opposites argue their biased and often whacky side of the story. An upscale version of cagefighting.
The other thing about science is that progress is usually slow. The LHC might be a neat machine, but it hasn't exactly rocked the world (thankfully! according to some) since it came online. Scientist can be (and usually are) off the mark with their ideas or experiments. Hubble made a big splash in the News, but immediately became an object of some ridicule when it didn't work because of a manufacturing defect. No-one needs to have to deal with that in addition to their work (which often benefits from accidents and errors).
Edit: BTW - thanks for introducing a science topic in the science forum!
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
86 (
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Protection From Predators
Posted:
11/2/2009 2:39:40 PM
Yep, we need more gunners out there to cull the population.... Even Dick Cheney managed to bag a lawyer on a quail hunt. And I would guess al of these folks weren't stressed out by a wild animal they thought was going to eat them - Though Dick said the quail was HUGE - and pretty angry.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351877,00.html
BELLE PLAINE, Minn. — The Sibley County Sheriff says that a man who accidentally shot and killed his 9-year-old son while they were hunting apparently mistook the boy for a turkey.
http://www.theunion.com/article/20091101/NEWS/911019999/1066&ParentProfile=1053
Authorities Sunday were investigating the shooting death of a 12-year-old boy who was hunting with his family near North San Juan.
The boy was hunting deer with a group of family and friends Saturday morning in an area between North San Juan and Malakoff Diggins State Historic Park when he was shot in the left ribs, according to sheriff's reports.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/addpost.aspx?PostID=13360074&x=35&y=13
An 11-year-old boy hunting Friday night was shot and killed after his gun accidentally discharged, shooting the child in the head.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/63636797.html?elr=KArksDyycyUtyycyUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
Brady Damhof was wounded Saturday while duck hunting near the west-central Minnesota town of Svea. Authorities say another member of his hunting party apparently stumbled, and his gun went off.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
19 (
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Proof of Darwin as a regular scientist
Posted:
11/2/2009 2:30:52 AM
Scorpio
- http://www.faqs.org/health/bios/5/Gerald-M-Edelman.html
Edelman and his associate, Joseph Gally
proposed a radical theory that would later be confirmed as essentially correct
. It depended on the vast diversity that can come from chance in a system as complex as the living organism. Each time a cell divided, they theorized, tiny errors in the transcription--or reading of the code--could occur, yielding slightly different proteins upon each misreading. Edelman and Gally proposed that the human body turns the advantage of this variability in immunoglobulins to its own ends. Many strains of antigens when introduced into the body modify the shape of the various immunoglobulins in order to prevent the recurrence of disease.
This was all done in the 60s so probably isn't too prominent in web searches.
As for people rabidly waving proof about evolution around. I don't think many scientists care too much about preaching evolution to people who don't really want to hear about it. And of those who are, there is just so much diversity in the evidence for evolution that it's impossible for an individual to even be aware of it all, even if they wanted to communicate it. I'm sure most scientists see evolution as pretty fundamental knowledge, just as Columbus and his contemporaries were able to travel as they did because they knew the earth as a globe. They wanted to get on with their jobs rather than convince the skeptics that the earth wasn't flat.
Neuronal plasticity was well established by the 1970s and was suggested almost as soon as neurons were recognized in the 19th century. Edelman's contribution was more related to how signals were transmitted through the brain (or a network of neurons) and the mechanisms by which neuronal circuitry was modified. The link above also describes Edelman's ideas about neuronal function.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
74 (
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Protection From Predators
Posted:
11/2/2009 1:47:48 AM
Yep, didn't take long to find stories about more hunting deaths than deaths from predators. The stats donn't look good for protection with guns. ' Course the gunners will say its about using guns in a smart way - while they ignore suggestions that the predator problem would be less if people hiked smart. Personally, i don't go hiking if there's likely to be hunters about - too dangerous. I figure I'd stop hiking if I knew there were lots of 'hikers' packing 'protection' too.
quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
445 (
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It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted:
11/1/2009 1:07:59 PM
America was by and large settled by Europeans
The first ones were called PILGRIMS. I wonder why?
Maybe somewhere in the American gene is an intolerance or inability to come to terms with something you don't agree with. I only spend an occasional few months in England these days after leaving it 30 years ago, but I still don't see the rabid extremes that shock me in the US. Much of it stirred up by misrepresentation and lies.
Politics seems to be very far from religion for the most part.
Luther disagreed with the church over money.
The English reformation was about Henry VIII getting a new wife.
The inquisition was about Spanish royalty reneging on repaying loans.
What about Israel today?
I think the two combine when advantages are recognized and otherwise leave each other alone. And I'd say that past history teaches us that it can get very scary when they get together.
Edit:
The reason why it's self correcting is do to the vehement insistance with greed and selfishness that they would like nothing more than to prove their colleagues wrong. You see, you fail at understanding what is going through a scientists mind. Like many athletes compete against each other for brute strength. Scientists compete with the mind. They want to prove that they are more intelligent than their colleagues. Intelligence is everything to them. This is why it is self correcting. Comprehende'?
What an absolute load of bull. If that's the level of science that you have been exposed to, it's no wonder you have such a poor grasp of it. Scientist's minds vary about as much as any other group of individuals. Many just love the challenge and joy of figuring out the greatest puzzles on earth. For the most part, if they don't cooperate they get nowhere. Unfortunately, the dumb attitude represented by that quote is coming to pervade the administration of science and really screwing up the ability to perform good science. Clearly the quote is an expression of delusional faith in what science is and as such is as bad, if not worse than religious faith.
quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
50 (
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Protection From Predators
Posted:
11/1/2009 12:36:44 PM
^^ but horns and spray just don't give you the hit that a gun packs. You look silly swaggering with a horn and spray. And some folks who can't afford a sports car just need the testosterone!
This isn't about protecting yourself. It's about wanting a toy you're not supposed to have.
quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
10 (
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Proof of Darwin as a regular scientist
Posted:
11/1/2009 11:57:51 AM
I guess this is another thread unfortunately falling into the religion rut - shame *shrug*
Gerald Edelman inspired neural Darwinism. Before that, he won a Nobel Prize for research into the immune system. He disproved the popular theory of the time that antibodies were 'designed' and demonstrated that they 'evolved'. The natural selection process favoring their multiplication was their ability to fuse with antigens.
Maybe the reason for all of these incurable diseases is that too many people have stopped believing in evolution.
quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
41 (
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Protection From Predators
Posted:
11/1/2009 11:46:19 AM
String, why are you picking on Ismene instead of focusing on the topic of the thread? Your off-topic posts are full of fallacies and getting tiresome. Ismene's point seems to be that animals don't just have a right to live, they are ESSENTIAL to life on earth. There are way too many dumb shits around who think that humans are the only important objects in existence. We've reached a point where just pushing animals aside doesn't work any more. And I don't think adding slaughter to that tactic will help much. I'm a diver and occasionally meet sharks. I don't expect any lamebrain social program to eradicate sharks from the ocean just so I can enjoy my recreation without being at risk. Nor do I carry a weapon to kill them.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
32 (
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Protection From Pedators
Posted:
11/1/2009 10:28:12 AM
In the Truro area, they are calling for a cull of coyotes because it is so bad.
I guess the coyotes beat them to it!
What a lot of people don't realize is that coyotes are not native to eastern Canada
What a lot of people don't realize is that Europeans are not native to eastern Canada.
Considering how many 'hunters' manage to kill and maim things they shouldn't, I suspect the coyote danger would fade into insignificance against the danger from armed 'hikers'.
Edit: - Pepper spray is reputed to work on all kinds of predators.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
18 (
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Hoping to find someone who has been through this
Posted:
11/1/2009 10:16:43 AM
Contact the people who adopted him - and talk to the adoption agency. They are the best ones to know how he would be affected by contact from his mom.
Otherwise, mom should be patient until her boy has the mindset to contact her.
My father was taken away from his father by his aunt because mom died in childbirth. He believed (because he was told) that his father didn't want him, until many years later (too late) a family friend told him that it wasn't true. His spinster aunt wanted him for her own. Sometimes, the choices we (or others) make in life aren't the best, but sometimes we just have to live with them and let circumstances (and other people's choices) take their course.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
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Msg:
8 (
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Proof of Darwin as a regular scientist
Posted:
11/1/2009 9:41:31 AM
Giordano Bruno and Galilleo were treated even more poorly than Darwin.
The thread reminds me of another thread - asking who was the father of science and both have me wondering what it is about people that they need to have their 'superheroes' to worship. Who is better? Newton or Darwin? And who even knows of Leibnitz, the first documented example of differential calculus - now universally favored over Newton's fluxation methods? Or Poincare and Lorenz who simultaneously but independently of Einstein developed their own, more mathematical version of relativity?
It also reminds me of how easily threads are drawn into bickering over evolution. Is this what the thread is really about?
Science is about cooperation. People learning from each other. Capitalizing on the intellectual ideas floating around at the time. What are we teaching our kids when we idolize (or demonize) individuals, distort their contributions to science and therefore paint an utterly false picture of how science progresses. Certainly we aren't teaching them the basis of good science, or giving them the tools to become good scientists.
Darwin didn't stand alone in the development of evolution. It was already in the cards. If I understand correctly, his delay to publish wasn't just about upsetting friends. It was about his own uncertainty about his ideas, and a little personal lethargy. Both of which were overcome by letters from his contemporaries outlining similar ideas which he felt would take the credit if he didn't go ahead and publish.
As for what is "obvious and clear". That is the fallacious argument of incredulity rearing its ugly head again. Is relativity 'obvious and clear? - or quantum physics? - or even fixing my bloody car? To some they may be obvious and clear - just like many of the ideas of evolution are to me. To others, they are totally incomprehensible - despite perhaps being the most logical explanations of all that we observe. Gravity worked for Newton, but didn't seem to work in quite the same way for Einstein. Some things I just have to accept - and leave the details to those more knowledgeable than myself. I just don't see why anyone wishes to preach their particular viewpoint to anyone else. That's not scientific and diversity is one of the greatest assets given to human intellect.
Quietjohn2
Joined:
12/6/2004
Msg:
20 (
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The conciousness of water.
Posted:
10/31/2009 10:36:17 PM
if I had a snowball in my hand I'd teach you a lesson!
Hehe - wanna play?
I think being a plumber may color your viewpoint too
But I agree with you - water is rather magical, not least because it is so unique. Major solvent, one of few natural materials that expands when it solidifies - and maybe you're right, not long before it may become a fuel - lots of effort being made - there's even a journal devoted to it - Int J Hydrogen Energy. But conscious?
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/21155/?a=f
Melnicki MR, Bianchi L, De Philippis R, Melis A (2008) Hydrogen production during stationary phase in purple photosynthetic bacteria. Intl J Hydrogen Energy 33:6525-6534 (Melis does a lot on bacterial hydrogen production)
http://hydrogencommerce.com/index16.htm
http://www.hydrogen-challenger.de/
Hydrogen powered Winnebagos - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19781021&id=2E4OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7X8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3208,6210125
And here's how to do it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_JacxLcI8A
But seriously
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0705/gallery.honda_fcx/index.html
http://green.autoblog.com/2006/09/12/bmw-officially-announces-the-bmw-hydrogen-7/
etc., etc., ...
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