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Author
Thread: Rules of the Road
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
87 (
view
)
Rules of the Road
Posted:
6/25/2009 7:21:42 PM
Capitalism, with all it's faults (a bit like democracy in that regard), is a powerhouse of change for the good - when used in the right way. That's the "old school" version, btw, not the modern unfettered mutant that wound up literally killing the golden goose due to a lock of regulation.
Banking is not gambling at the craps table, and the banks in my country (for the most part, except for some foreign deals) stayed as conservative as they had always been - and kept in check by regulation.
Capitalism does require some oversight, and the Great Depression and this recent trouble confirm that. Ups and downs are normal, but horrendous crashes into a wall at 100 MPH (one that you could see coming) are simply too much to allow to occur.
Such a crash causes untold misery, and now financial markets are tied together all over the world.
Deregulation, and greed, make a deadly mix.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
14 (
view
)
Michael Jackson dies in LA
Posted:
6/25/2009 6:27:03 PM
Good music, weird dude, bad behavior...
Well said...
Based on his life, his family, and success at so young an age - perhaps it was inevitable he was so messed up as a person. A brilliant dancer and singer (although not really my style, that was still easy to see), he could have done so much more with the gifts he had. He always struck me as "Peter Pan" in a way, the kid who never grew up. Again, probably explainable, since his childhood was impacted upon by his fame.
He'd been cruising for a long time, and it will be interesting to see if the stress of this comeback tour was the major contributing factor in his death - as one might easily suspect. The cancellation of some of some of his pre-tour prep sessions, and postponement of some of the early London shows wasn't a very good sign.
After seeing some of the things that were put up for auction after the Neverland sell off, it was a pretty mind warping experience. A coat with brass plates on it, with boys names ?
Brrrr.......
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
22 (
view
)
What operating system are you using?
Posted:
6/25/2009 6:07:33 PM
Ubuntu 9.04, and I've been rolling with Ubuntu for almost a year now - bye bye Windows (although I will probably eventually do a dual boot installation, and seldom let Windows access the net).
After my disaster with Vista, on a new computer, I said "never again". I had a kernel fault after an OFFICIAL upgrade, and that caused me a lot of grief. After all the money spent on Windows products, this was the last straw for me.
Ubuntu is free, secure, and probably the only Linux distro that a Windows person can easily change over to. The online community is great, and the OS doesn't have tons of things slowing it down that many users never need to use. No anti virus needed, either.
One can put the entire Ubuntu OS on a USB stick, and essentially carry one's computer anywhere in the world on a keychain.
Ubuntu's "eye candy" makes Vista look like a Model T.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
16 (
view
)
Tony Hawk Ruining America?
Posted:
6/25/2009 4:09:26 PM
Ever hear of skateistan ?
http://skateistan.org/
KABUL – In the shadow of a Soviet-era apartment block, 10-year-old Fazillah Shrindil hops on a skateboard and cruises the banked edge of an empty concrete fountain, her turquoise scarf trailing behind.
Class is in session and Fazillah is offering instruction.
"You put your front foot here," Fazillah tells her companion, a 5-year-old girl. "And then you just push off like this."
Afghanistan's national sport is buzkashi, a game similar to polo that's played on horseback with a goat carcass, and serious players train from youth. But the age-old sport is being nudged aside by about 100 kids in Kabul for a more Western passion: skateboarding.
They are learning all about Ollies and other moves at a school, Skateistan, started two years ago by Oliver Percovich, a 34-year-old from Melbourne, Australia. The school is not only intended to teach kids dexterity on wheels, but also to provide health and education programs for young people in Kabul.
"You can already see what it does for their self-esteem," says Percovich. "Look at Fazillah. I remember the first day she came here in January. She was walking through the park with a pile of sticks on her back. Her family had her quit school and she was selling chewing gum in the streets for $2 (U.S.) a day. Now she's far more confident, and we pay her the same as she made on the street to stay in school and come here afterwards and teach skateboarding to the younger children."
In a country where it's difficult enough for humanitarian-themed non-profits to raise funds, Skateistan's financial success has been impressive.
The organization in October asked the Canadian government for $5,000 and was given $15,000. The German embassy has invested $140,000 and Denmark has contributed $125,000. Percovich has raised enough to build a 1,750-square-metre indoor skate park, a $200,000 steel-roofed building that will be completed this August. He hopes to attract hundreds of children and teenagers.
"The contractor gave us a real break," he says, chuckling. "They'd charge the U.S. Army $1.2 million for the same thing."
The facility will include rooms for language and music classes as well as other training, and it will be possible to segregate the skate park's concrete surface and ramps so girls can continue to skateboard after they hit puberty – when they begin to wear head-to-toe burqas.
"We can use this as a great tool to find out what skills they want to acquire, whether that's English training or learning the guitar," says Percovich, who abandoned an organic bakery business he started in Melbourne to move here in 2007 with a former girlfriend who worked for a think-tank in Afghanistan.
While none of the children who have embraced skateboarding have started wearing baggy jeans or flat-brimmed baseball hats, there's been an uproar from critics who see this as a western indulgence.
One of the girls who attends the skateboarding sessions says she's been beaten by her brothers for partaking in the activity.
One of Skateistan's Afghan employees, 21-year-old Mirwais Mohsen, said he and his family were threatened with death by a Taliban taxi driver for teaching kids to learn to skateboard.
He says: "This is a city where you have to take that kind of threat seriously."
So he and his family moved across town. But he keeps working at Skateistan because he gets a great salary: $500 (U.S.).
Percovich insists he's not using Skateistan to bring Western culture to Afghanistan.
"No kid here has any idea who Tony Hawk is," he says, referring to the U.S. skateboarding legend. "It's just about giving them some sort of physical activity that they enjoy and using that to improve their lives in other ways."
One afternoon, not far from a busy street where a suicide bomber blew himself up a few months back, Percovich held a girls-only session. "I like to make sure the younger kids are included, the girls especially," he says.
"This is really fun," says Fazillah, who has two brothers and six sisters and plans to be a doctor some day. "Why do I like coming out skateboarding?
"It's just a great time passer."
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/648290
Hope, one ollie at a time....
I never really "got" skateboarding until I played Tony Hawk 1 and 2 on the Playstation. Once I did, I could understand why kids were so into it. If it gets them out doors and active ? More power to you.....
More than deserving of a visit to the White House, I'd say.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
85 (
view
)
Rules of the Road
Posted:
6/25/2009 3:43:29 PM
On top of that, this fall we're going to see an extremely serious situation with the commercial real estate market. So far all we really know is we're going into a MASSIVE amount of debt, but haven't seen much in the way of recovery. This maufactured "jobs saved or jobs created" crap is just useless propaganda - who even MEASURES "jobs saved or jobs created"? Why don't we just stick to the unemployment rate, which is what we've judged every other president by?
Because this is not a normal situation, the American economy (only months ago) was standing at the edge of a precipice that could very well have plunged it into a major depression. It's still bad, but nowhere near as bad as it could have been had no action been taken.
As for Buffet ?
"Everything that I see about the economy is that we've had no bounce... in terms of the economy coming back, it takes a while." Although Buffett said that measures taken in the fall of 2008 to stabilize the financial system had worked, the stimulus efforts had not made an immediate difference. He said that weak demand still existed across all business areas he receives data on, including retail, manufacturing, and even electricity.
As speculation is rising over whether or not Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke will be reappointed, Buffett weighed in, praising his actions overall. "I don't see how you could do better" than Bernanke's decisive actions in a time of great crisis, he added, and extended his approval to former Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and current Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. Paulson has been widely criticized for his handling of the TARP program, and for forcing banks -- including Wells Fargo (WFC), which Buffett owns -- to take government capital and issue warrants. Wells Fargo has not returned TARP funds yet, and although Buffett is somewhat disappointed by its forced issuance of warrants, he believes Wells will do fine over time.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/06/24/buffett-says-economy-is-in-shambles-but-still-likes-stocks/
Pretty interesting that he gives a thumbs up to both Bernanke and Paulson, isn't it ?
And this citation, which takes the entire issue in context :
BUFFETT: Well, it's been pretty flat. I get figures on 70-odd businesses, a lot of them daily. Everything that I see about the economy is that we've had no bounce. The financial system was really where the crisis was last September and October, and that's been surmounted and that's enormously important. But in terms of the economy coming back, it takes a while. There were a lot of excesses to be wrung out and that process is still underway and it looks to me like it will be underway for quite a while. In the (Berkshire Hathaway) annual report I said the economy would be in a shambles this year and probably well beyond. I'm afraid that's true.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31526130
And Bernanke's view ?
ECONOMIC OUTLOOK
“We continue to expect economic activity to bottom out, then to turn up later this year,” Bernanke testified.
Key to the economic turnaround is that the housing market is beginning to stabilize, and that the sharp inventory liquidation that has been occurring will slow over the next few quarters, he said.
But Bernanke warned that the forecast assumes the gradual repair of the financial system continues. “A relapse in financial conditions would be a significant drag on economic activity and could cause the incipient recovery to stall,” he said.
Bernanke also said the recovery will gain momentum only gradually and that economic slack will decline slowly. And he said that businesses are likely to be cautious about hiring new workers, which means the unemployment rate could remain high for a time, even after economic growth returns. Normally, employment follows the economy, but does not lead it.
Inflation in this type of economic environment is expected to remain low, he said.
“A sustained recovery in economic activity depends critically on restoring stability to the financial system,” he said. “However, financial markets and financial institutions remain under considerable stress, and cumulative declines in asset prices, tight credit conditions, and high levels of risk aversion continue to weigh on the economy.”
http://www.america.gov/st/business-english/2009/May/20090505115000dmslahrellek0.4212152.html
The American economy was crippled by this massive hole that Wall Street had placed it in, and recovery will take time.
Far from poor bankers being forced to accept the cruel weight of bad credit risks, this image the right loves to promote, it was far more a case of bankers thinking they were on a vacation in Vegas - and at the craps table.
Let's now go and take a look at what was said at DAVOS 2009, that well known commie/socialist gathering of many of the top people in business, held in Switzerland :
The already dour mood turned angry when an AIG executive took the stage at one panel discussion. The insurance giant's missteps helped put the global economy at risk, and other panel members were quick to push for answers.
The idea that this particular financial contagion can never be allowed to do so much damage again has been a constant refrain at the forum, both in sessions and in the hallways.
That has given much of this risk management talk a rear-view-mirror sensibility. Typical was a remark by Angel Gurria, secretary general of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, who told a group he was seated with Thursday morning that "there was a massive failure of regulation and a massive failure of risk management that we can't let happen again."
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/30/davos-risk-assessment-leadership-governance_0130_risk.html
Roubini: Well, some people say this might be the price of capitalism and market economies. To paraphrase Churchill--market economies and capitalism is the worst economic system apart from the alternative. But I think one of the lessons is that free markets, without appropriate rules and regulation, this kind of laissez-faire unregulated free market fundamentalism, has led to massive failures and these failures have led to a damaging financial and economic crisis.
So nobody wants to be adding excessive regulation, but financial markets require regulatory supervision. Therefore, this ideology of self-regulation is no regulation of market discipline doesn't not work; when there is irrational exuberance and over-relying on internal risk management, that doesn't work. When the music's playing at the dance and nobody's listening to the risk manager and everybody's going with the risk takers. This has led to excesses of credit, of bubbles, of leverage that has become dangerous.
So, we have to have an appropriate role of the government, otherwise, there will be a backlash against trade, against globalization, against free trade.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/29/roubini-regulation-davos-intelligent-investing_0130_davos.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a41:g2:r18:c0.055485:b21503027:z0&partner=loomia
Hence the reason for these new rules of the road....
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
989 (
view
)
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/24/2009 5:32:34 PM
I happen to think finally ridding the region of Hussein and his Baathists, giving Iraqis free elections, and providing the country a chance at even a seminal form of democracy isn’t all bad? (I’d ask the leaders of Iraq’s neighbors, like Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel, in a moment of complete candor and honesty, if they concur with the first point, and ask ordinary Iraqis if they concur with the following two.)
How about asking Sunni Muslims (90 percent of the Islamic world) how they feel about the creation of a SECOND Shia lead country, thanks to the USA ? There's no love lost between those two groups, and this has upset the apple cart of the Islamic world. The minority Sunnis in Iraq, the former masters, suddenly realized it was payback time from the Shia masses they'd brutalized.
Even worse, ensure it's right next door to Iran - the FIRST Shia Islamic country.
Which also reduces the historic geopolitical counterweight that Saddam provided against Iran, one that was supported by most of the Sunni Arab world - and the USA. That was the reason Saddam was such a friend to the West (and especially the US) in the first place.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
77 (
view
)
Rules of the Road
Posted:
6/24/2009 5:23:34 PM
Another question - how did this deregulation come about? Is it realistic to assume these guys just walked into Congress and said, "We want to make more money?" It's difficult for me to imagine that selling very well. Isn't it more realistic to imagine them walking in saying, "If we ease these regulations, we can help more American's buy homes?" Doesn't that argument satisfy the left if they are pushing for "affordable housing for all"?
Well, that just opened a door for a response.
This sprouted from the seeds of one of the mantras of the conservative right - deregulation. Get the government OFF our backs, so we can do a better job. This allowed Wall Street to play the Sorcerer's Apprentice, wave their magic wands, and eventually realize why those regulations were there in the FIRST place - far too late, but after filling their pockets with obscene amounts of cash....but with no control over the situation would something as simple as a huge increase in gas prices trigger an economic slowdown - as almost anyone could predict was eventually going to come, especially with a war in the Middle East going on (and with it's cost to the deficit).
That expanding deficit ALSO added to the element of the perfect storm that was brewing, and this was a another long term mantra of the right since the Reagan era. On the other hand, that was in a time when deficits were OK to accumulate, under Republican rule - and when the economy gave the appearance of success. Essentially, it was like a college kid with his first credit cards, livin' large and not thinking about tomorrow and it's consequences.
Although Reagan entered the White House promising to reduce government spending and return more power to the states, he ironically became the biggest spender in American history. Not even Roosevelt’s New Deal during the Depression or Johnson’s Great Society had dumped so much money into the economy as Reaganomics. Between 1980 and 1988, Congress overspent its budget by more than $200 billion every year, while the national debt soared from roughly $1 trillion to $2.5 trillion.
http://www.sparknotes.com/101/us_history_two/carter_and_reagan/the_reagan_revolution.html
Remember when spending money you didn't have in your pocket was a GOOD thing ? A trillion dollars spent (when the dollars were indeed worth far more) wasn't a socialist move way back then. It was as American as apple pie, and served up (quite ironically) on special at the Republican diner as a daily special - while also CUTTING taxes.
That's the other part of the modern conservative mantra - cut taxes, and money will trickle down like manna from heaven.
Or not.
More proof of Republican involvement ?
In 1933, a few years following the stock market crash, Congress passes the Glass-Steagall Act, in hopes that regulating banks will help prevent market instability, particularly amongst Wall Street banks. The purpose of the act is to separate commercial banks that focus on consumers from investment banks, which deal with speculative trading and mergers.
The Glass-Steagall Act provided the proper oversight and entity separation that would prohibit banks and other financial companies from merging into giant trusts (conflict of interests) -- giant trusts or corporations being more powerful, naturally, and having the seemingly limitless capital to lobby their corporate interests, however, with a very myopic scope (particularly when it comes to factoring in potential losses -- most banks, as seen in contemporary times, chose not to anticipate losses in the mortgage market; they presumed home prices would continue to appreciate).
In 1999, former Senator Phil Gramm (who is, incidentally, Senator John McCain's economic adviser and cochairs his presidential campaign) set out to completely gut the Glass-Steagall Act, and did so successfully, replacing most of its components with the new Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act: allowing commercial banks, investment banks, and insurers to merge (which would have violated antitrust laws under Glass-Steagall). Sen. Gramm was the driving force behind the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as he had received over $4.6 million from the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate donations) over the previous decade, and once the Act passed, an influx of "megamergers" took place among banks and insurance and securities companies, as if they had been eagerly awaiting the passage of Gramm's Act. Everything in between Glass-Steagall and Gramm-Leach-Bliley (i.e. Savings and Loan crisis/bust) was, in large part, the incubation period for what would take place over the nine years that would follow the passage of Gramm's Act: an experiment in deregulation.
http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/the-subprime-mess-and-phil-gramm-an-experiment-in-deregulation.aspx
Funny how the Savings and Loan Crisis ALSO occurred under Republican rule, isn't it ?
Imprudent real estate lending
In an effort to take advantage of the real estate boom (outstanding US mortgage loans: 1976 $700 billion; 1980 $1.5 trillion)[citation needed] and high interest rates of the late 1970s and early 1980s, many S&Ls lent far more money than was prudent, and too-risky ventures which many S&Ls were not qualified to assess. L. William Seidman, former chairman of both the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) and the Resolution Trust Corporation, stated, "The banking problems of the '80s and '90s came primarily, but not exclusively, from unsound real estate lending."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis
Remember Enron ?
Well, Phil Graam's wife worked there too. Graam had strong connections to UBS, eventually winding up in their employ.
In 2003, Gramm left the Senate to join UBS, which had acquired investment house PaineWebber due to his deregulation bill. At UBS, Gramm lobbied Congress, the Fed and the Treasury Department. During Gramm's tenor at UBS and as a lobbyist, Congress passed the Responsible Lending Act, billed as an anti-predatory-lending measure, but was called the "Loan Shark Protection Act" by consumer advocates, as it was designed to preempt stronger state laws against anti-predatory lending. The Fed largely ignored the underlying and growing problems within the subprime mortgage/housing markets, as Bernanke famously acknowledged the housing market in April, 2007 as, "[showing] signs of softening," but said that a "sharp slowdown," is unlikely. Then, according to Mother Jones magazine, Henry Paulson became the Treasury Secretary in July, 2007, when, "In 2005, [at] Goldman [he] securitized $68 billion in residential mortgages and $23 billion in 'other assets' primarily related to CDOs," (Mother Jones, August, 2008). With such self-interest, and a lack of the nation's interest, we can see how this subprime mess was allowed to escalate to such great proportions.
Some justice was served, however, this spring, as UBS became one of the subprime debacle's biggest losers, having to write down $37 billion -- the same amount as their previous four years of profits combined. UBS also made the public aware that two-thirds of its losses were due to reckless investing in collateralized debt obligations (CDOs).
-Ibid
This climate of bad business was well recognized for what it was, and I respectfully submit for your consideration the words of President George Bush as evidence - circa 2002.
With well-timed tax cuts, we fought our way out of recession and back to economic growth. And now, with a tough new law, we will act against those who have shaken confidence in our markets, using the full authority of government to expose corruption, punish wrongdoers and defend the rights and interests of American workers and investors.
My administration pressed for greater corporate integrity. A united Congress has written it into law. And today, I sign the most far-reaching reforms of American business practices since the time of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
This new law sends very clear messages that all concerned must heed. This law says to every dishonest corporate leader: You'll be exposed and punished. The era of low standards and false profits is over. No board room in America is above or beyond the law.
This law says to honest corporate leaders: Your integrity will be recognized and rewarded, because the shadow of suspicion will be lifted from good companies that respect the rules.
This law says to corporate accountants: The high standards of your profession will be enforced without exception. The auditors will be audited. The accountants will be held to account.
This law says to shareholders that the financial information you receive from a company will be true and reliable, or those who deliberately sign their names to deception will be punished. This law says to workers: We will not tolerate reckless practices that artificially drive up stock prices and eventually destroy the companies and the pensions and your jobs.
And this law says to every American, there will not be a different ethical standard for corporate America than the standard that applies to everyone else. The honesty you expect in your small businesses or in your workplaces, in your community or in your home will be expected in force in every corporate suite in this country.
America's system of free enterprise, with all its risk and all its rewards, is a strength of our country and a model for the world. Yet free markets are not a jungle in which only the unscrupulous survive or a financial free-for-all guided only by greed. The fundamentals of a free market -- buying and sell, saving and investing -- require clear rules and confidence in basic fairness.
The only fair risks are based on honest information. Tricking an investor into taking a risk is theft by another name.
Corporate executives must set an ethical tone for their companies. They must understand the skepticism Americans feel and take action to set clear standards of right and wrong.
Those who break the rules tarnish a great economic system that provides opportunity for all. Their actions hurt workers who committed their lives to building the company that hired them. Their actions hurt investors and retirees who place their faith in the promise of growth and integrity. For the sake of our free economy, those who break the rules of fairness, those who are dishonest, however wealthy or successful they may be, must pay a price.
- July 30, 2002
Bush Signs Corporate Accountability Law
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/30/bn.07.html
Not one Conservative of note called any of the measures (which were to prove ineffective anyway in protecting America's economy), socialist.
So , at the end of a long road of laissez faire involvement in the market, massive deregulation of that same market, massive deficit increases, while also cutting taxes and involving the country in a war in the Middle East that would almost certainly raise gas to that tipping point ?
It's no surprise what occurred.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. President George W. Bush, saying "our entire economy is in danger," urged Congress to approve his administration's $700 billion bailout proposal.
"We're in the midst of a serious financial crisis, and the federal government is responding with decisive actions," Bush said in a televised address Wednesday night from the White House.
Bush pointed out that the collapse of several major lenders was rooted in the subprime mortgage market that thrived over the past decade.
He said passage of the $700 billion bailout proposal was needed to restore confidence in the market.
"I'm a strong believer in free enterprise, so my natural instinct is to oppose government intervention," he said. But "these are not normal circumstances. The market is not functioning properly. There has been a widespread loss of confidence.
"Without immediate action by Congress, America can slip into a major panic."
-President George Bush
September 25, 2008
Dec 22 2008
The auto-industry bailout saga came to an end, at least temporarily, on December 19th, 2008, when President Bush announced a $13.4 billion bailout from TARP funds. While still against the notion of using TARP funds for such a bailout, the President acknowledged the unique circumstances affecting the Detroit auto companies and the disastrous consequences that could result from their disorderly bankruptcies.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/24/bush.bailout/index.html
Funnily enough, no one called him a socialist at the time either......
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
72 (
view
)
Rules of the Road
Posted:
6/24/2009 6:53:45 AM
Obama blamed the crisis on "a culture of irresponsibility" that he said had taken root from Wall Street to Washington to Main Street, and he said regulations crafted to deal with the depression of the 1930s were "overwhelmed by the speed, scope and sophistication of a 21st century global economy."
Going back to the OP, one has to examine just exactly what occurred with this financial mess, and how it was a remarkably good indicator of what occurs when regulations get stripped out of government.
To those that love to mention how ACORN forced banks to accept high risk loans, I respectfully submit that this was in no way what created the situation that we all saw implode. The forces behind that were greed and deception, focused (mainly) with a genesis inside America's borders - and in it's CEO's offices.
I read an exceptionally good article by Diane Francis, writing for The Financial Post, showing the magnitude of what occurred " Wall Street Turned Into Las Vegas".
U.S. opponents to President Obama's announced re-regulation of the financial sector are billing the issue as capitalism versus socialism or even communism.
It is not the case. This is not the economic version of the Cold War and the search for a new architecture does not mark the death of capitalism.
In fact, free enterprise was nearly murdered by Wall Street, AIG and other reckless financial institutions.
They did not meet their defined responsibilities.
They bent the law to bypass rules governing their behaviour.
Many of them abandoned traditional banking and got into the gaming business. And they brought the world to the brink in the fall.
The role of government is appropriate in the financial sector because of its importance to sustaining a healthy capitalist system.
Banks, brokers, insurers and others are licensed by the government to benefit society by being astute gatekeepers to success: They deploy their own capital and savings from the public honestly by investing in worthy individuals and entities which will create wealth then repay their loans.
Government's role is necessary because these institutions, in turn, exist as a result of deposits from the public and shareholders' money. They have a fiduciary obligation to responsibly use other peoples' money for the benefit of all. The rules dictate who, what and how they lend or insure as well as how they leverage.
But what Wall Street and the others did was lend, or insure, obscene amounts of money to inappropriate entities for inappropriate reasons without any market discipline. There were no clearing houses for the trillions in derivatives they created, no markets for them, no pricing mechanisms, no leverage restrictions, no capital allocation and no transparency or proper accounting.
They were not players in a free enterprise system but were gamblers rigging the system for their own benefit.
America's financial punters sank the legitimate and regulated credit system. They collected upfront fees and played fast and loose with credit instruments, witness estimates that the notional value of credit default swaps, and other risky "derivatives", could total up to US$600 trillion, or 10 times' the world's GDP.
Last fall, Washington was told by AIG and Lehman Brothers the world was bust. Thanks to trillions in bank bailouts and shotgun marriages, total collapse was averted.
Months later, there are positive signs. Consumer confidence has a pulse, at long last, but this has yet to translate into spending. Some 53 million people have lost their jobs worldwide and governments are in hock to the tune of trillions.
Innocent victims also include the world's poorest nations and their citizens, including those who ran their fiscal and monetary houses in a responsible way.
Wall Street's recklessness, and in some instances criminality, has destroyed credit which continues to afflict third party, real-economy businesses from Detroit (which already had problems) to retailers and most others.
The fix will take years, and require international co-operation, and wasn't the fault of government or the rest of us.
So the next time some Wall Streeter or financial sector apologist is blabbing about how re-regulation will kill capitalism, just remember it was so-called capitalist "champions" in pinstripes who destroyed free enterprise by driving it into the wall.
http://www.thestarphoenix.com/Business/Wall+Street+turned+into+Vegas/1722831/story.html
There is the crux of the matter, clearly explained.
600 TRILLION ? TEN times the WORLD'S GDP ? FIFTY THREE MILLION jobs lost ?
This goes far beyond ACORN, when one speaks of such orders of magnitude. It was a total collapse of ethics and good business sense, and there is NO doubt of this. Banks and companies are not casinos, nor should they start to act like them.
An almost unthinkable situation, with it's roots in some very simple human actions, one's that betrayed the faith that so many had in capitalism.
On the Serengeti plains of capitalism, allowing the lions to set the rules is generally a bad idea for the gazelles that are the ones that invest their hard earned money, and expect some sort of ethical behavior without oversight to somehow guide them to bettering their lives.
This experience has driven a wooden stake through this idea, a lesson that was learned the hard way right after the Great Depression. Without regulation, without protection, this is the inevitable result of a laissez fair attitude.
So , far from being a "new road" , it's actually a path that's been traveled before, and hopefully for the last time.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
343 (
view
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guns at home
Posted:
6/24/2009 6:34:57 AM
The message is simple: Disarmed people are neither free nor safe - they become the criminals' prey and the tyrants' playthings. When the civilians are defenseless and their government goes bad, however, thousands and millions of innocents die.
If this were true, then Canada would be the perfect laboratory to do an experiment. We've had gun laws almost since our country was founded. We live right next door to the USA, and that provides an easy access to firearms for criminals. In so many ways, we share a lifestyle that is almost the same. The same violent media, the same type of lifestyle, so much so that an alien might see us as almost identical cultures.
Yet, we have not been overrun by criminals, nor fallen under the yoke of tyranny ( no Harper jokes here....) . We've continued to exist as we always have, and gun crimes are remarkably low.
There goes your hypothesis.... since 1867 until today we've managed all this with various amounts of gun control.
As stated before, and again worth repeating, firearms are not BANNED here - nor in any other Western industrialized nation. One still can get rather easy access to them, if one is a good citizen and able to follow the rules (most of which are quite logical, and measures of good gun owners anyway) that such a right requires. Those rules vary in restriction, but offer gun ownership.
Even Israel, with terrorism a daily problem, has rather STRICT gun controls. Interesting concept, isn't it ?
Anyone, any American, that thinks that a government can take over a society and be repelled by citizens with firearms is dreaming in technicolor - it's not 1776 anymore. That same government can easily find you, and most other gun owners, simply by taking over the NRA database of members. That's a defacto gun registry, and a wealth of information.
As are gun club records, purchase transactions of ammo and ammunition, NRA T-shirts and bumper stickers , personal web pages, and posts here at POF.
That's always struck me as rather ironic, when discussing this issue. Being on some registry is a great danger, but having a Facebook page with pictures of you holding a weapon is .......a good idea.
That same government, this fictional nemesis, could simply (as a first measure) instantly ban all ammo sales - while raiding the NRA headquarters. Under current laws, they could probably easily set this up without anyone being aware of it. You have to thank Bush for those changes - and their potential of misuse.
So, with only the ammo you have on hand, and this "Dr Evil" type group now aware of every NRA owners address and weapons - it's almost game over. Fighting against an enemy with technology far superior, with magical vision devices that can literally see through walls and also fire through them, high technology body armor, far superior firepower, air support and modern armored vehicles ?
You and your Winchester are soon going to get that ultimate wish......having that weapon pried out of your cold dead hands.
Anyone not agreeing with this should perhaps revisit Ruby Ridge and Waco. So far, the record of armed private citizens against security forces isn't that great - with no hope of much improvement anytime soon.
It's a mythic romantic image, but (in the cold light of day) , a rather silly notion.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
984 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/24/2009 6:11:36 AM
Also , if it was as successful as claimed, it would have never been used as many times as it was on so few suspects.
C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.
The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative.
A former C.I.A. officer, John Kiriakou, told ABC News and other news media organizations in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had undergone waterboarding for only 35 seconds before agreeing to tell everything he knew.
The 2005 memo also says that the C.I.A. used waterboarding 183 times in March 2003 against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-described planner of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The New York Times reported in 2007 that Mr. Mohammed had been barraged more than 100 times with harsh interrogation methods, causing C.I.A. officers to worry that they might have crossed legal limits and to halt his questioning. But the precise number and the exact nature of the interrogation method was not previously known.
A footnote to another 2005 Justice Department memo released Thursday said waterboarding was used both more frequently and with a greater volume of water than the C.I.A. rules permitted.
The new information on the number of waterboarding episodes came out over the weekend when a number of bloggers, including Marcy Wheeler of the blog emptywheel, discovered it in the May 30, 2005, memo.
The sentences in the memo containing that information appear to have been redacted from some copies but are visible in others. Initial news reports about the memos in The New York Times and other publications did not include the numbers.
Michael V. Hayden, director of the C.I.A. for the last two years of the Bush administration, would not comment when asked on the program “Fox News Sunday” if Mr. Mohammed had been waterboarded 183 times. He said he believed that that information was still classified.
A C.I.A. spokesman, reached Sunday night, also would not comment on the new information.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/20detain.html
So there goes your "ticking time bomb" "24" inspired scenario, placed in it's proper context with both the number of incidents of use - as well as the breaking of standards for volume of water and frequency. It's quite a logical deduction that such measures would not have occurred had the initial session(s) been as productive as claimed.
Place that against a historical context of what constitutes effective interrogation (and that is both an art and a science) , as well as the historical moral outrage against it from the West, and you have the seeds for making a bad situation much worse.
As those much mentioned seconds tick away, one simply spends more time filling up the bucket, and endlessly repeating the same experience. Done improperly, this very action can result in brain damage or mental problems - and that starts to complicate the interrogation process.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
982 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/23/2009 6:41:10 PM
How? Show me where we have a national policy of supporting terrorist organizations?
Did the USA ever take much of a strong stance against IRA supporters, and the collection of money there ? The Armalite AR-18 was perhaps one of the most iconic weapons used in that struggle, and it was supplied to the IRA by American citizens - as were millions of dollars.
OK, that's an error of omission, one set against an "official" policy of seeing it as a illegal terrorist organization.
Perhaps a better example is US (and Western) efforts to subvert legitimate democratic leaders, and or eliminate them. One can trace a long pattern of this type of covert effort through the history of the Middle East and South and Central America. America (and again other Western countries) fully supported such efforts, and those efforts involved "freedom fighters" ......which is what the other fellow (at the other end of the gun) calls a terrorist.
The overthrow of the legitimate leader of Iran ?
The ejection of Western oil companies from their Iranian refineries triggered the Abadan Crisis and nearly caused a war. Britain accused Mosaddeq of violating the legal rights of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and mobilized a worldwide boycott of Iran's oil that plunged Iran into financial crisis. The British government tried to enlist the United States in planning a coup, but President Harry S. Truman refused. However, his successor Dwight D. Eisenhower allowed the CIA to embark on its first covert operation against a foreign government.The British and U.S. spy agencies replaced the government of the popular Prime Minister Mosaddeq with an all-powerful monarch, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi who ruled for the next 26 years until he was overthrown in 1979.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
The horrific abuse under the Shah was what helped to spark the Islamic Revolution, three decades later.
The SOA ?
The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation,” is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.
Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the “biggest base for destabilization in Latin America.” The SOA, frequently dubbed the “School of Assassins,” has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.
Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, “disappeared,” massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.
http://www.soaw.org/type.php?type=8
Death squads killing innocent people, whose only crime was to support the rights of their people to a better life.
The worst of the military's violent purging from society of thousands of Chilean Leftists and suspected Leftists — by killing or forced disappearance — occurred in the first months after the U.S.-sponsored coup d’état. The military imprisoned 40,000 of their political enemies in the National Stadium of Chile; among the tortured and killed desaparecidos were U.S. citizens Charles Horman , and Frank Teruggi. Chilean song-writer Víctor Jara, and other 70 political killings were perpetrated by the death squad, Caravan of Death (Caravana de la Muerte) in October 1973.
Some 130,000 people were arrested in a three-year period; the dead and disappeared numbered thousands in the first months of the military government. Those include the British physician Sheila Cassidy, who later brought awareness to the UK public of human rights violations in Chile. Among those detained was Alberto Bachelet (father of incumbent Chilean President Michelle Bachelet), an air force official; he was tortured and died on 12 March 1974, . The right-wing newspaper, El Mercurio (The Mercury), reported that Mr Bachelet died after a basketball game, citing his poor cardiac health. Michelle Bachelet and her mother were imprisoned and tortured in the Villa Grimaldi detention and torture centre on 10 January 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
That's another Sept 11th, that people in another nation still remember. I've talked with a few of them, who moved to Montreal to escape the horror of that US sponsored reality.
I won't even start to speak about Pinochet, and his reign, also supported by the USA.
Or Operation Condor :
"The declassified record shows that Secretary Kissinger was briefed on Condor and its 'murder operations' on August 5, 1976, in a 14-page report from Shlaudeman. 'Internationally, the Latin generals look like our guys,' Shlaudeman cautioned. 'We are especially identified with Chile. It cannot do us any good.' Shlaudeman and his two deputies, William Luers and Hewson Ryan, recommended action. Over the course of three weeks, they drafted a cautiously worded demarche, approved by Kissinger, in which he instructed the U.S. ambassadors in the Southern Cone countries to meet with the respective heads of state about Condor. He instructed them to express 'our deep concern' about 'rumors' of 'plans for the assassination of subversives, politicians and prominent figures both within the national borders of certain Southern Cone countries and abroad.'"
Kornbluh and Dinges conclude that "The paper trail is clear: the State Department and the CIA had enough intelligence to take concrete steps to thwart Condor assassination planning. Those steps were initiated but never implemented." Shlaudeman's deputy Hewson Ryan later acknowledged in an oral history interview that the State Department was "remiss" in its handling of the case. "We knew fairly early on that the governments of the Southern Cone countries were planning, or at least talking about, some assassinations abroad in the summer of 1976. ... Whether if we had gone in, we might have prevented this, I don't know," he stated in reference to the Letelier-Moffitt bombing. "But we didn't."
Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State in the Nixon and Ford administrations, was closely involved diplomatically with the Southern Cone governments at the time and well aware of the Condor plan. According to the French newspaper L'Humanité, the first cooperation agreements were signed between the CIA and anti-Castro groups, fascist movements such as the Triple A set up in Argentina by Juan Perón and Isabel Martínez de Perón's "personal secretary" José López Rega, and Rodolfo Almirón (arrested in Spain in 2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor#U.S._involvement
The list goes on and on, including the use of Islamic fundamentalists in the struggle against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Those men, some still alive today and important players, were doing the same things they did to Russian soldiers then - when they were paid operatives of US interests (albeit in many cases unknowingly) and were considered heroes by people like Reagan.
STEVE COLL: It’s interesting to go back and look at the public discourse about this. During the Reagan years in particular, it was a very superficial, certainly, Reagan often used the terminology of his, you know of freedom. These were freedom fighters. These were noble freedom fighters. I don’t want to overstate this, but the Afghans were regarded with some distance almost as noble savages in some sort of a state of purity fighting for an abstract idea of freedom. The idea that Afghanistan was a messy place filled with complexity and ethnicity and tribal structures and all of the rest of what we now understand about Afghanistan was it was generally not part of American public discourse.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/ghost_wars_how_reagan_armed_the
So any belief that the USA somehow always wore a white hat, and never got it's hands dirty with terrorists, is based on a historical record that shows otherwise. Sadly, like so many other Western nations, that's been the case for decades.
Such interventions, done for political or resource based motivations, helped to create the Petri dish of terrorism ; the lack of education, and poverty that empowers such people to take up arms. For every stone thrown into the lake, a hundred ripples spread out across it in every direction.
Some lap at our feet, decades later, when we stand there forgetful of who threw the stone - and when.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
9 (
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Anti-Smoking Bill
Posted:
6/23/2009 6:03:44 PM
As a part time smoker of cigars, and an ex cigarette smoker, I think this type of move is an excellent long term choice for America.
I used to work for a supplier of a tobacco company, so I have a bit of an insider's knowledge of the industry.
Sadly, thanks to binding legal implications of a document I signed while in that position, I can't really elaborate on that side of things.
Tobacco is an addictive drug, with no benefits at all. At least one can argue that something like alcohol has some merits, even some health merits, when used properly.
Canada's enacted some strong legislation on the same front, and one no longer even sees cigarettes displayed in stores here anymore. They are hidden behind the counter, our of sight, until asked for. I have no problem with that either.
Making tobacco an important social issue isn't a bad thing, and I also support the idea of banning smoking in restaurants and bars. All these things, and higher taxes on the product itself, will gradually reduce the number of new smokers coming into the marketplace. That's a good long term thing for society, and it's health.
I'm old enough to remember when people smoked in buses and airplanes, and looking back on that now seems to strike me as being somewhat insane. It was indeed normal, for the longest time.
Hopefully, in the not too distant future, smoking cigarettes will be something so rare that it will be considered in the same way.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
339 (
view
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guns at home
Posted:
6/23/2009 3:33:57 PM
If you or anyone outside the U.S. chooses to simply believe what you hear and read from the media and not hear what law abiding American's like myself have to say, then stay in your own country and hide behind the false belief that because your country has banned gun ownership, that you are safe.
I don't see anyone living in a country where guns have been banned, at POF. They may be harder to get than in the USA (not hard to beat, I admit) but they are still available.
I honestly don't have a problem with firearms being owned by people that see them for what they are, a tool that can be used for target shooting, collecting, or hunting. Those things are valid reasons to own a gun, and should be seen as such. Even self defense is a valid reason, as long as one doesn't seem too eager to use that right too hastily - and one uses it only to protect the lives of yourself or others. Like most Canadians, that last function of a firearm is something I see as critically important in it's context.
I also hope that gun owners will do everything in their power to train with their weapon, maintain it properly, and keep it out of the hands of others who should not access it.
My main concern with some (but certainly not all) gun owners are those that some seem to be fantasizing about the day they can kill someone with it. As I've said, I could certainly pull the trigger to defend my life, or to protect others, were I armed and the situation mandated such an action.
I could never contemplate enjoying such an act, no matter how necessary it was to do.
I'm also very glad that I live in a country where one has to be judged competent to have such a right, and must be responsible enough to use it properly. I don't think that's too much to ask, with such a powerful tool. Rights to own such a weapon given to people who are incompetent, mentally ill, or untrained in their use (including legal implications of same) simply lead to too much human sorrow - as we have seen.
I could not live in a society where essentially anyone with the money could simply walk in and out of a store in ten minutes, now heavily armed with a weapon(s) that gives one the power of life and death.
The one very strange feeling, as a foreigner, when I had visiting both coasts of the USA (as I have) was this idea that I could be sitting in a restaurant, or walking on a street - and literally be a few feet away from someone with a concealed weapon that could end my life should that person decide (for whatever reason ) to draw and use it.
This concept is something that is as foreign to me as walking on the moon is.
The concept that I could visit and stay in a foreign country for three months, and somehow gain the right to purchase and carry such a weapon easily MYSELF ? Another mind blowing concept for me. How any country could accept allowing non-citizens to do that escapes me.
In the end, I guess we are all products of the society we were born into.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
14 (
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Taller woman?
Posted:
6/22/2009 5:15:05 PM
I don't really care about a woman's height.
As long as we can see eye to eye, height isn't an issue.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
17 (
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Stephen Colbert and the troops
Posted:
6/22/2009 4:48:10 PM
Although far from topic, some good questions.
1) America is, and will always be, the "Great Satan" to the hardcore Saudis (almost an oxymoron). Of all the Sunni Muslims, they are about as hardcore as one can possibly get. American support for Israel, as well as the American lifestyle, make it an oil and water type of situation.
On the other hand, business is still business, and the Saudis also gain from American politicians ( look into the Bush family and it's connections to various Saudis.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/saudi.html
The Saudi ambassador , for decades, was one of the few that could make ONE phone call to the White House and get an instant meeting.
BAER: I'd always been fascinated by Saudi Arabia. And I'd always noticed that on general intelligence reports that are sent around in the field, and in Washington, there's virtually nothing said about Saudi Arabia. Every Arab that I talked to , and I know a lot of them , kept on talking about the disputes in the royal family, huge contracts, the Wahhabi's funding Lebanese politics. It became clear to me, even though I wasn't seeing much in the CIA traffic, or State Department, or anywhere else, that this was a key country.
So when I got back to Washington in 95 and I stayed there until I resigned from the CIA , I said, all right, I don't know a whole lot about Saudi Arabia. What about Saudi Arabia? And I got onto the computer and I took a look around, and there just wasn't anything useful. I mean, you, as a journalist, would have looked at this and said: It�s junk. There�s nothing here. And especially nothing that goes deep into the problems in Saudi Arabia.
BAER: There's a lot that we really don't know. There are a lot of people in the royal family that sympathize with bin Laden. There are people in the royal family that feel humiliated by colonialism -- call it what you want -- by the United States, by Israel. And they're humiliated that they are citizens or subjects of a country that has never fought a war, and yet spends so much money on defense. They're humiliated that they don't take the Israelis on, because their army is worthless. And maybe they're not humiliated but rather disenfranchised because they can never advance up the ranks of the family, and it's a very tough culture. They sit around and they read the Koran. And they get on these Islamic websites, and they watch Al-Jazeera. And they go to the mosque, and I think they're believers.
BAER: I could have sat down and done a list of all my former colleagues from the CIA who ended up on the Saudi Arabian payroll. Some of them are known, like Ray Close. Others have gone public, but there are others that haven't. A bunch of my colleagues went to work for a public consulting firm where the initial capital was paid for by the Saudi embassy to lobby the Hill for the Gulf countries. A former member of the National Security Council under Reagan set this up. And it's not like it's a secret. Even Bandar [Bandar bin Sultan, Saudi prince and U.S. ambassador] has said, according to the Washington Post, that if I take care of people coming out of office, the new ones coming in are going to be a lot friendlier to Saudi Arabia once it gets known.
- Robert Baer, Former CIA Case Officer and Author of "Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude."
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/09/12_baer.html
So funding and allowing such an attack isn't that far fetched. One can keep the support of the radicals (and avoid being their target) simply by going through the motions of covertly supplying them money. If you ARE a radical, then that's OK too. Don't forget the Saudis would much prefer Bin Laden find other targets....and made a deal with him to avoid becoming one themselves.
His initial goal was to topple the Saudi government, remember. It's that "keep your enemies" closer concept in action.
With the influence the Saudis have, any retaliation was almost a non-issue. You can see that over and over again whenever something starts pointing towards Saudi Arabia....it leads to a dead end.
As to why no fear of Saudi nuclear weapons, my guess is an obvious one. Those missiles and nukes were paid for to simply ensure that no one was going to nuke THEM - as a deterrent. In fact, my guess would be that many (if not most) of them are targeting Iran.
There's no way that the Saudis could use them as a first strike weapon, as any nation state realizes, without being destroyed by Israel and it's allies within minutes afterwards.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
60 (
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Rules of the Road
Posted:
6/22/2009 4:27:19 PM
A democracy is direct rule by the people. We do not have that. We elect Representatives who vote on our laws. That is a Republic.
As does every other Western industrialized "democracy", as a matter of course.
Democracy means rule of the people. The two most common forms of democracy are direct democracy and representative democracy. In direct democracy everyone takes part in making a decision, as in a town meeting or a referendum. The specific rules may vary: perhaps everyone must agree, perhaps there must be consensus, perhaps a mere majority is required to make a decision. The other, better known form of democracy is a representative democracy. People elect representative to make decisions or laws. Again, specifics vary greatly.
Fortunately (for the democrats), the early federal government was not very powerful. In state after state it became easier for white males to qualify to vote. And slowly, decade after decade, our republic became a democratic republic.
At the national level the major steps toward democracy can be marked by amendments to the U.S. Constitution. The Bill of Rights guaranteed limits to the power of the federal government. The Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery. The Fourteenth Amendment effectively extended the vote to all adult male citizens, including ex-slaves, by penalizing states that did not allow for universal male suffrage. The Fifteenth Amendment explicitly gave the right to vote to former slaves. After the Supreme Court ruled that the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments did not extend suffrage to women, a vigorous campaign for the vote was launched by women, who received the vote through the Nineteenth Amendment in 1920.
But the main Amendment that tipped the scales from the national government of the United States being a mere republic to being a true representative democracy was the often-overlooked Seventeenth Amendment, which took effect in 1913. Since 1913 the U.S. Senate has been elected directly by the voters, rather than being appointed by the state legislatures. That makes the national government democratic in form, as well as being a republic.
http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.html
....and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
- Abraham Lincoln
That's a fairly socialist statement, isn't it ? " For the people ?
Another, quite American, example of how this term is maligned :
The definition of socialism, while seemingly a compromise between the twin extremes of capitalism and communism, is far closer to communism than it is to capitalism. Socialism is perhaps best described as Marxism in the conceptual phase. While socialists recoil from the totalitarian reality of communism, they are nevertheless convinced that everyone's needs can be met and everyone's potential fulfilled without the restriction of freedom.
The definition of socialism, then, may be said to be a formal economic system in which society exerts considerable control over the nation's wealth and property in the pursuit of social justice. "Considerable control" may or may not entail public ownership, while "social justice" usually depends upon the whims of a bureaucratic elite. Generally speaking, a market-based economy is antithetical to socialist principles, and some form of benevolent planning is advocated.
Of course, such a definition of socialism is exceedingly vague, but the pursuit of "fairness"—the ultimate goal of socialism—is necessarily vague, given that each of humanity's several billion individuals has a unique view of what "fairness" entails.
And it is precisely in this lack of specificity that the danger of socialism consists.
http://www.conservative-resources.com/definition-of-socialism.html
So is one supposed to support injustice, in the name of freedom ?
This last eight years has shown us that the magic of American capitalism has faltered, when greed replaced common sense. When automakers refuse to accept the possibility of gas prices impacting on their product (after being knocked out once already by the same problem) , then should the government simply continue to let this cycle proceed ?
Those arguing that Obama is socialist would again be the FIRST in line to critique him had he let the banking and automotive industries be destroyed by non-intervention. That's the sad part about all of this. Lacking any cigars, or interns, or mysterious deaths they can tie to Obama......it's the only round conservatives have in their gun at the moment.
Damn, were is a Clinton when you really need one ?
Surprisingly, with all this "socialist" intervention, a real potential depression seems to have leveled off into a recession, which seems to be on it's way to ending.
Which is why it was done in the first place.
It's that American culture filter at work again, that of the individual, combined with the general perception among many Americans that socialism=communism.
Just take a look at some "socialist" programs, as some Americans would define them :
Influences of socialism on American society today
The effects of socialism in America can still be felt today. According to the Future of Freedom Foundation, any government-owned, -funded, or -subsidized operation is considered to be a socialist program. For example, publicly owned airports, sports arenas or government-funded universities would be considered socialist operations by that definition.
The Social Security Act of 1935, one of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal creations, is seen by many as a socialist program because it is a government-organized and -regulated system. Social Security was designed to provide retirement benefits to citizens through mandatory donations to the program during one's employment years.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1669.html
That's a pretty low bar, compared to what any non-American would think of the term socialism.
Just look at the American Progressive Movement, in the latter part of the nineteenth century.
Efforts to improve society were not new to the United States in the late 1800s. A major push for change, the First Reform Era, occurred in the years before the Civil War and included efforts of social activists to reform working conditions, and humanize the treatment of mentally ill people and prisoners.
Others removed themselves from society and attempted to establish utopian communities in which reforms were limited to their participants. The focal point of the early reform period was abolitionism, the drive to remove what in the eyes of many was the great moral wrong of slavery.
The second reform era began during Reconstruction and lasted until the American entry into World War I. The struggle for women's rights and the temperance movement were the initial issues addressed. A farm movement also emerged to compensate for the declining importance of rural areas in an increasingly urbanized America.
As part of the second reform period, Progressivism was rooted in the belief, certainly not shared by all, that man was capable of improving the lot of all within society. As such, it was a rejection of Social Darwinism, the position taken by many of the rich and powerful figures of the day.
Progressivism was also imbued with strong political overtones and rejected the church as the driving force for change. Specific goals included:
The desire to remove corruption and undue influence from government through the taming of bosses and political machines;
the effort to include more people more directly in the political process;
the conviction that government must play a role to solve social problems and establish fairness in economic matters.
The success of Progressivism owed much to publicity generated by the muckrakers, writers who detailed the horrors of poverty, urban slums, dangerous factory conditions, and child labor, among a host of other ills.
The successes were many, beginning with the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and the Sherman Antitrust Act (1890). Progressives never spoke with one mind and differed sharply over the most effective means to deal with the ills generated by the trusts; some favored an activist approach to trust-busting, others preferred a regulatory approach.
A vocal minority supported socialism with government ownership of the means of production. Other Progressive reforms followed in the form of a conservation movement, railroad legislation, and food and drug laws.
The Progressive spirit also was evident in new amendments added to the Constitution, which provided for a new means to elect senators, protect society through prohibition and extend suffrage to women.
Urban problems were addressed by professional social workers who operated settlement houses as a means to protect and improve the prospects of the poor. However, efforts to place limitations on child labor were routinely thwarted by the courts. The needs of blacks and Native Americans were poorly served or served not at all — a major shortcoming of the Progressive Movement.
Progressive reforms were carried out not only on the national level, but in the states and municipalities of the country as well. Prominent governors devoted to change included Robert M. La Follette of Wisconsin and Hiram Johnson of California.
Such reforms as the direct primary, secret ballot, and the initiative, referendum and recall were effected. Local governments were strengthened by the widespread use of trained professionals, particularly with the city manager system replacing the all-too-frequently corrupt mayoral system.
Formal expression was given to progressive ideas in the form of political parties on three major occasions:
The Roosevelt Progressives (Bull Moose Party) of 1912
The La Follette Progressives of the 1920s
The Henry Wallace Progressives of the late 1940s and early 1950s.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1061.html
Some of those "Commies" , like the Roosevelts, rank pretty high in a list of respected American politicians.
The fight for woman's rights, and those of non-whites, were also spearheaded by such people. Progressive programs made America a far better place for all, and that can be seen over and over again.
No need to worry about any gulags, comrade.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
65 (
view
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How important is Political Compatibilty in DATING?
Posted:
6/22/2009 3:36:28 PM
Plus it gives you that lovely opportunity to remind them just how wrong they are when the time is right. The truth is (as Dance once referred to) that we all live in this "bubble" , and politics is but a small part of our lives. If one supports democracy, one also has to respect the right to differ in opinion, due to the paths we've all taken to get where we all are now.
As I've said, I was married for seventeen years to a separatist, one who wanted to break up my country. I'm a devout federalist, and strongly believe that's wrong. I also support the right of people to have such an opinion, and respect it. It caused us no problems in the relationship, and we canceled each others votes out every time the matter came up in an election/referendum.
She did however manage to convince me that separation did have it's place, at least on the personal level.
That had zero to do with any political beliefs we had though....
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
327 (
view
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guns at home
Posted:
6/22/2009 3:27:09 PM
One has to do a bit of research, to see the truth :
Posted Thu Jun 4, 2009 3:00pm AEST
The SA Govt says crime rates have fallen for the sixth consecutive year. (ABC News)
The South Australian Government says crime rates have fallen for the sixth consecutive year, despite an increase in the number of homicides and related offences of more than 20 per cent.
Figures from the Bureau of Statistics show there were 25 murders in 2008, almost double the 13 murders reported the previous year.
The Police Minister, Michael Wright, says the crime rate fell last year by 6.7 per cent overall and has dropped by 38 per cent in the past six years.
Mr Wright says last year there were decreases in the number of robberies, break-ins, motor vehicle thefts, sexual assaults and attempted murders.
The State Opposition says the figures show a disturbing increase in the number of violent crimes.
Figures show more than 17,000 assaults were reported in 2008, about 200 more than in the previous year.
The Opposition's police spokesman, David Ridgway, says the number of assaults has jumped by about four per cent over the past six years.
"We're now seeing more than 50 people a day victims to violent assaults in South Australia," he said.
"The Government claims we have the greatest number of police in the state's history, yet we simply don't see them out where the community wants them and as a result violent crime and violent attacks on individuals are rising."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/04/2589436.htm
. Australia's urban crime rate is on a par with most large cities in the U.S. Residential burglaries are common throughout Australia and are among the most likely crimes encountered by Australians and foreign residents alike. Some burglars can, at times, be confrontational if they enter an occupied residence. Armed robberies have been reported in the Canberra area as well as throughout Australia. In these cases, the weapon of choice is usually a knife. Although firearms are sometimes used, they are the exception rather than the rule. Australia has extremely restrictive firearms legislation and the purchase, licensing and storage of a firearm is very difficult when compared to U.S. standards. Local police have attributed a majority of these burglaries and robberies to the growing problem with heroin and methamphetamine (ICE) addiction.
Violent crime in Australia is low, with under 100 reported cases of armed robbery, homicide or sexual assault per 100,000 persons nationally. Basic assault statistics are higher, with approximately 700 cases per 100,000 persons. Most of these are attributed to fighting and alcohol related incidents. Travelers should exercise the same level of caution and security awareness as they would in any major city in the U.S.
https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=101186
Tuesday 31 March 2009
AUSTRALIAN CRIME REPORT 2008
The Minister for Home Affairs Bob Debus said today’s release of the annual Australian Crime:
Facts and Figures 2008 by the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) has found that property
crime rates were the lowest in the 12-year period since 1996 but some violent crimes are
continuing to rise.
“While there have been increases in some types of violent crime, recorded homicides have
decreased in the past 12 months and are now at the lowest level in 12 years.
“Rates of other violent crimes such as robbery and assault have also increased since 2004 but
are still fewer than those occurring in the early 2000s.
“A key trend from the publication is the very significant decline in arrests for cannabis and heroin
offences. However, this has been offset by increases in arrests for amphetamines, an issue
which has been of concern for governments and law enforcement agencies for some time.”
The Minister said it was also a concern that 15 percent of robberies still involved the use of
firearms.
“While some of the increase in recorded violent crime has been attributed to increased reporting
to police, increased community awareness, changes in the way the justice system manages
violent offences and the greater willingness of victims to report violence have all influenced
national crime statistics.”
http://www.ag.gov.au/www/ministers/ministerdebus.nsf/Page/MediaReleases_2009_FirstQuarter_31March2009-AustralianCrimeReport2008
Australian Institute of Criminology research manager Judy Putt says crime researchers around the world are aware of the contradiction between the public view and the reality of the extent of crime and what happens to offenders.
Dr Putt said the survey showed a large majority would like more spent on law enforcement.
The survey showed a significant majority believed crime had increased during the past two years with 41.7 per cent saying there was a lot more crime and 23.2 per cent saying a little more.
Just under three per cent said there was less crime. Actual crime statistics show a decrease in four major categories - murder, break-ins, car theft and theft - during the same time, the study said.
Australians also over-estimated the rate of violent crime. Almost a quarter said violence accounts for up to 80 per cent of all crime, yet the true figure is 10 per cent.
Respondents also under-estimated the rate of conviction for those charged with violent crime. The real conviction figure is between 91-100 per cent, correctly nominated by just 1.8 per cent.
Similarly, almost 70 per cent estimated that under 30 per cent of home burglars go to jail. The real figure was 31-40 per cent.
The results revealed a public sceptical about the criminal justice system, the commission said.
They perceived criminal victimisation to be a much greater risk than it really was, and the criminal justice system as being softer than it really was.
"These misperceptions are generally attributable to the main source of information respondents rely on for their picture of crime and criminal justice - the popular media," the study said.
ttp://www.livenews.com.au/news/australians-overestimate-crime-rate-underestimate-justice-system-study/2009/5/25/207691
That's an international problem, which can lead to things like a Toronto newspaper with screaming headlines about "Murder City" , when a few people get killed (mainly gang related, it should be noted). That is far more a reflection of how safe the country normally is, when that type of headline occurs. :blink:
If firearms promised a greater potential of safety, then right to carry states should have lower crime rates than other ones.
The truth is, they don't.
Wisconsin, which doesn't allow carrying concealed weapons anywhere in the state, has a relatively low and stable crime rate.
Preliminary 2008 Crime and Arrests in Wisconsin
Crime offenses dropped in all index crime categories in 2008, highlighted by a near-record 20.7 percent drop in homicides. The number of homicide offenses, 146, was the lowest since 1988. Arrests for violent offenses increased 1.1 percent and arrests for property offenses increased 3.5 percent.
2007 Crime in Wisconsin
Between 2006 and 2007, the state of Wisconsin experienced relatively stable crime rates. The violent crime rate decreased by 0.2%, while the property crime rate increased by 0.2%. Murder experienced the most notable change (10% increase), yet one must be cautious when interpreting these results due to the small number of incidents. The crime rate for Aggravated Assaults also increased (2%) while the rates for both Forcible Rape and Robbery decreased (2% and 4%, respectively).
2006 Crime and Arrests in Wisconsin Report
Based on monthly crime and arrest reports submitted by 373 Wisconsin law enforcement agencies to the Statistical Analysis Center, the 2006 report includes an 18.8 % increase in reported violent offenses and a 3.7% increase in property offenses as compared to 2005. Total arrests increased by 1.7 % from the previous year.
2005 Crime and Arrests Report
Based on monthly crime and arrest reports submitted by 370 Wisconsin law enforcement agencies, the 2005 report includes a 3.8% increase in reported Crime Index Offenses, a 7.1% decrease in total adult arrests and a 4.1% decrease in total juvenile arrests as compared to 2004.
2004 Crime and Arrests Report Cover2004 Crime and Arrests Report
Based on monthly crime and arrest reports submitted by 370 Wisconsin law enforcement agencies, the 2004 report include a 5% decrease in reported Crime Index Offenses from 2003. Total adult arrests increased by 5.2% and total juvenile arrests decreased by 3.1% compared to the previous year.
http://oja.wi.gov/category.asp?linkcatid=1324&linkid=709&locid=97
Now if you would believe the NRA, Wisconsin should be overrun by now with criminals looking for easy pickings. Any fluctuations there are certainly not due to any change in firearms laws there , and show far more a trend to other factors impacting on crime rates - like demographics, and an aging population.
And any criminal thinking Wisconsin was too tough, should simply cross the border into Canada.
National Picture
From 1977 to 2006, the total rate of both violent and property crime declined from 5,039 to 4,539 incidents per 100,000 Canadians. The rate rose between 1977 and 1982 and again after 1989, peaking in 1991 at 7,220, and declining after that point, reaching its lowest level in almost 30 years in 2006.
http://www4.rhdsc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=57
Tougher gun laws, and a decrease in crime ? That's impossible !
By that same logic, Canada should be overrun with criminals, after all, we've been "defenseless" for decades.
Pre-1892
Justices of the Peace had the authority to impose a six-month jail term on anyone carrying a handgun, if the person did not have reasonable cause to fear assault against life or property.
1892
The first Criminal Code required individuals to have a basic permit, known as a 'certificate of exemption,' to carry a pistol unless the owner had cause to fear assault or injury. It became an offence to sell a pistol to anyone under 16. Vendors who sold pistols or airguns had to keep a record of the purchaser's name, the date of the sale and information that could identify the gun.
1913
Carrying a handgun outside the home or place of business without a permit could result in a three-month sentence. It became an offence to transfer a firearm to any person under the age of 16, or for a person under 16 to buy one. The first specific search, seizure and forfeiture powers for firearms and other weapons were created.
1919-1920
A Criminal Code amendment required individuals to obtain a permit to possess a firearm, regardless of where the firearm was kept. These permits were available from a magistrate, a chief of police or the RCMP. British subjects did not need a permit for shotguns or rifles they already owned; they only needed one for newly acquired firearms. Permits were valid for one year within the issuing province. The Criminal Code did not provide for a central registry; records were maintained at the local level.
1921
A Criminal Code amendment repealed the requirement for everyone in possession of a firearm to have a permit. Instead, only 'aliens' needed a permit to possess firearms. (British subjects still needed a permit to carry pistols or handguns).
1932-1933
Specific requirements were added for issuing handgun permits. Before this, applicants only had to be of 'discretion and good character.' They now also had to give reasons for wanting a handgun. Permits could only be issued to protect life or property, or for using a firearm at an approved shooting club. The minimum age for possessing firearms was lowered from 16 to 12 years. Other changes included the creation of the first mandatory minimum consecutive sentence - 2 years for the possession of a handgun or concealable firearm while committing an offence. The punishment for carrying a handgun outside the home or place of business was increased from 3 months to a maximum of 5 years.
1934
The first real registration requirement for handguns was created. Before then, when a permit holder bought a handgun, the person who issued the permit was notified. The new provisions required records identifying the owner, the owner's address and the firearm. These records were not centralized. Registration certificates were issued and records were kept by the Commissioner of the RCMP or by police departments that provincial Attorneys General had designated as firearms registries.
1938
Handguns had to be re-registered every five years, starting in 1939. (Initially, certificates had been valid indefinitely). While guns did not require serial numbers, it became an offence to alter or deface numbers (S.C.1938, c.44). The mandatory 2-year minimum sentence provision was extended to include the possession of any type of firearm, not just handguns and concealable firearms, while committing an offence. The minimum age was raised from 12 to 14 years. The first 'minor's permit' was created to allow persons under 14 to have access to firearms.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/pol-leg/hist/con-eng.htm
It should be noted that dueling was legal in Montreal (at least not prosecuted) until early into the nineteenth century. Of particular interest are the rather limited numbers of deaths (or even injuries) from such duels. It seems that an insult to a gentleman's honor did sometimes have to be atoned for - but (shall we say) the actual shooting of anyone was far less important. Either these men were horrible shots (and many of them were military and ex-military) , or that gentlemen realized that missing wasn't that bad a concept.
1836: Two duelling politicians from Lower Canada were lucky to have sensible seconds. Clément-Charles Sabrevois de Bleury, a member of the Lower Canadian Legislative Assembly, insulted fellow politician Charles-Ovide Perreault. Perreault then struck de Bleury, and a duel was set. Both men were determined to settle the matter with pistols, but their seconds came up with a unique solution. The two foes would clasp hands and de Bleury would say, "I am sorry to have insulted you" while at the same time Perreault would say, "I am sorry to have struck you." They would then reply in unison, "I accept your apology." The tactic worked, and the situation was resolved without injury.
1840: Joseph Howe was called out by a member of Nova Scotian high society for his populist writing. When his opponent fired first and missed, Howe fired his shot in the air and won the right to refuse future challenges.
1873: The last duel in what is now Canada occurred in August 1873, in a field near St. John's, Newfoundland (which was not Canadian territory at the time). The duellists, Mr. Dooley and Mr. Healey, once friends, had fallen in love with the same young lady, and had quarrelled bitterly over her. One challenged the other to a duel, and they quickly arranged a time and place. No one else was present that morning except the two men's seconds. Dooley and Healey were determined to proceed in the 'honourable' way, but as they stood back-to-back with their pistols raised, they must have questioned what they were doing. Nerves gave way to terror as they slowly began pacing away from each other. When they had counted off the standard ten yards, they turned and fired. Dooley hit the ground immediately. Healey, believing he had killed Dooley, was seized with horror. But Dooley had merely fainted; the seconds confessed they had so feared the outcome that they loaded the pistols with blanks. Although this was a serious breach of duelling etiquette, both opponents gratefully agreed that honour had indeed been satisfied.
in the case of pistol duels, each party would fire one shot. If neither man was hit and if the challenger stated that he was satisfied, the duel would be declared over. A pistol duel could continue until one man was wounded or killed, but to have more than three exchanges of fire was considered barbaric and, if no hits were achieved, somewhat ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_duels
Hey. it's Canada.....
In fact, it was one quite brutal duel which lead to dueling being outlawed in Montreal. Almost overnight, because of it's brutality, the population was so revolted that the practice was stopped.
By the way, another quite fascinating fact ? Dueling is actually STILL not illegal in the USA, in over thirty states, unless (in some) you are in the National Guard. You still will face the consequences if you break any other laws, like actually killing or wounding someone. Rather intriguing.....
There is also the problem of just what exactly constitutes a "violent crime" ....
Here's what that definition means here, in my country :
- homicides, attempted murder, all assaults, all sexual offences, abduction and robbery
In the USA :
murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault.
England and Wales
All violence against the person, sexual offences, and robbery
The Australian Standard Offence Classification (ASOC) document published by the Australian Bureau of Statistics does not have a single category for violent crime. Rather, violent crime is classified under a number of different categories that often indicate a range of both violent and non-violent behaviour. The categories include:
* Homicide and related offences, covering murder (including conspiracies and attempts), manslaughter and driving causing death.
* Acts intended to cause injury, such as Assault, as well as other acts.
* Sexual assault and related offences including non-assaultive sexual offences, such as those against a child.
* Abduction and related offences such as kidnapping, deprivation of liberty or false imprisonment.
* Robbery, extortion and related offences such as blackmail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime
That's something that most pro-gun advocates don't understand (or don't want to) when quoting difference in "violent crime rates" between countries. Where the same standards to be applied to the USA, the numbers of "violent crimes" would jump dramatically.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
324 (
view
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guns at home
Posted:
6/22/2009 10:49:26 AM
It's also tooo dang cold to BE a criminal in Canada for about half the year or more...depending on how far north you are. A crook standing outside in the snow in a dark alley tends to freeze to death before long ;)
Well, it doesn't seem to stop any Americans in Detroit....which is right across the Detroit River from Windsor, Ontario. In fact, most Canadians don't live that far from the USA, our population is clustered along your border - for the most part.
We've got Crips and Bloods as well, plus Irish and Italian mobsters. We also have a few motorcycle gangs, including the Hell's Angels.
Just to show you how those cultural filters work, the Hell's Angels have had only ONE black member.
A Quebecer.
The Hell's also wound up killing a couple of innocent people by accident. One , an eight year old kid, was killed by shrapnel from a car bomb. Another, an adult male, was shot by accident at a gas station. He had the same name, and looked like, a person that was on their hit list.
They also tried to kill a prison guard.
That sequence of events triggered an all out war against them, and resulted in most of the active membership in the club (at that time) being arrested.
Criminals killing other criminals happens rarely here, criminals killing innocent civilians happens even less. Most of the cases of such crimes are accidental ones, done while trying to kill other criminals.
See, those cultural filters still apply here, as to using a firearm against a human being - even if you a criminal. Plus, doing such a thing risks an all out full court press by law enforcement and the courts against your gang - which is generally very bad for business.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
15 (
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Stephen Colbert and the troops
Posted:
6/22/2009 10:32:24 AM
But this does raise a question: Bin Laden was a Saudi. All of the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Not a one was an Afghan. Are we starting to build a picture about who really was behind 9/11?
That is fairly obvious. Just look at a couple of not generally well known events, connected to Abu Zubaydah and his capture.
His pocket litter contained two bank cards which showed he had access to Saudi and Kuwaiti bank accounts, which was considered rare since most al-Qaeda members used the preferred untraceable hawala banking.
According to James Risen
"It is not clear whether an investigation of the cards simply fell through the cracks, or whether they were ignored because no one wanted to know the answers about connections between al Qaeda and important figures in the Middle East -- particularly in Saudi Arabia." One of Risen's sources chalks up the failure to investigate the cards to incompetence rather than foul play: "The cards were sent back to Washington and were never fully exploited. I think nobody ever looked at them because of incompetence." When American investigators finally did get around to looking into the cards, they worked with "a Muslim financier with a questionable past, and with connections to the Afghan Taliban, al Qaeda, and Saudi intelligence." He reported back that "Saudi intelligence officials had seized all of the records related to the card from the Saudi financial institution in question; the records then disappeared. There was no longer any way to trace the money that had gone into the account."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Zubaydah
Or this :
Author Gerald Posner, controversial for his books dismissing JFK assassination and other conspiracy theories, will claim that a remarkable interrogation of al-Qaeda prisoner Abu Zubaida begins at this time. Zubaida, arrested three days earlier (see March 28, 2002), is flown to a US Special Forces compound outside of Kandahar, Afghanistan. There, he is tricked into thinking the US has handed him to the Saudis for a more brutal interrogation, but in fact “the Saudis” are still American agents. Zubaida expresses great relief at this and, under the influence of the “truth serum” sodium pentothal, tells his interrogators to call Prince Ahmed bin Salman, a nephew of the Saudi king. He provides telephone numbers from memory and says, “He will tell you what to do.”
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=fahd_bin_turki_bin_saud_al-kabir
See also Omar al-Bayoumi, a very interesting Saudi national who just happened to be living at the Parkwood Apartments, along with some of the 9/11 hijackers.
On January 15, 2000, future 9/11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar flew to Los Angeles, California from Bangkok, Thailand, just after attending the 2000 Al Qaeda Summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The final 9/11 Commission Report noted:
Hazmi and Mihdhar were ill-prepared for a mission in the United States. . . Neither had spent any substantial time in the West, and neither spoke much, if any, English. It would therefore be plausible that they or [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] would have tried to identify, in advance, a friendly contact for them in the United States. . . We believe it unlikely that Hazmi and Mihdhar. . . would have come to the United States without arranging to receive assistance from one or more individuals informed in advance of their arrival."
Al-Bayoumi met the hijackers at a restaurant after their landing; he claims he met them by accident. He invited the two hijackers to move to San Diego with him, and they did. Al-Bayoumi found them an apartment, co-signed the lease, and gave them $1500 to help pay for their rent. Al-Bayoumi also helped the two obtain driver's licenses, rides to Social Security, and information on flight schools. Al-Bayoumi says he was being kind to fellow Muslims in need, and had no idea of their plans. But according to Newsweek magazine a former top FBI official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said, "We firmly believed that he had knowledge [of the 9/11 plot], and that his meeting with them that day was more than coincidence."
Al-Hazmi and al-Mihdar's neighbors later reported that the two struck them as quite odd. They had no furniture, they constantly played flight simulator games, and limousines picked them up for short rides in the middle of the night.[8] [9] During this time, al-Bayoumi lived across the street from them. Throughout this period, the payments from Dallah Avco, his titular employer, greatly increased. Al-Hazmi and al-Mihdar later moved into the house of Abdussattar Shaikh, a friend of al-Bayoumi's, who was secretly working as an FBI informant at the time.
In July 2001, Omar al-Bayoumi moved to England to pursue a PhD at Aston University. Ten days after the September 11 attacks he was arrested by British authorities working with the FBI. He was held on an immigration charge while the FBI and Scotland Yard investigate him. His phone calls, bank accounts, and associations were researched, but the FBI says they found no connections to terrorism. He was released, and went back to studying at Aston,and later moved to Saudi Arabia. Anonymous British officials suggest al-Bayoumi must have been protected by the FBI, because "giving financial aid to terrorists is a very serious offense and there is no way [the FBI] would have let him go scot-free."
The issue was reopened when the potential links between al-Bayoumi and the Saudi Embassy were reported in the press. Under pressure from Congress, the FBI re-examined the case. They concluded that the allegations were "without merit," and they "abandoned further investigation." But contemporary news accounts reported that "countless intelligence leads that might help solve [the case] appear to have been under investigated or completely overlooked by the FBI."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_al-Bayoumi
As I also posted a long time ago, it seems that the Saudis also have nuclear weapons and missiles. They didn't spend a billion dollars for an "Islamic bomb" in Pakistan, simply out of good will.
They have also bought quite a few CSS-2 "East Wind" Chinese missiles, and they have two missile bases that you can easily find on Google Earth.
Oh yeah, those missiles ?
They have a 2.5 km CEP ( accuracy) , and are useless if using anything other than a nuclear weapon - and that's why the Chinese designed that rocket as a nuclear warhead carrying one.
But shhhh....don't tell anyone, OK ? (Even though it's all out there to find if you look for it....)
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
74 (
view
)
A new direction in Government?
Posted:
6/21/2009 12:03:45 PM
Well, this news just in....
Seven months after Barack Obama defeated him in the U.S. presidential election, the Republican senator from Arizona said Sunday he thinks his former Senate colleague is making things happen in the White House.
"I think he's done well," McCain said on the CBS program "Face the Nation."
"He has achieved literally every one of his legislative accomplishments," McCain noted in reference to the economic stimulus package and other measures passed by Congress in recent months.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
Well, what do you know ?
And this as well :
But Liz Ann Sonders, chief investment strategist with Charles Schwab & Co., believes that the recession ended sometime in the past two months and that the market is doing what is usually does, heading higher before it's common knowledge that the economy is recovering.
Sonders noted that the Leading Indicators Index, a report that looks at consumer goods orders, stock prices, building permits and seven other key economic data points, rose sharply in May for the second consecutive month.
The report, released Thursday, showed a 1.2% increase last month, following a 1.1% rise in April. Sonders thinks this is significant because it's the largest two-month consecutive jump since November and December 2001 -- the first two months that followed the end of the 2001 recession.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/19/markets/thebuzz/index.htm?postversion=2009062008
Americans seem to be more confident, far more than they were only a few month ago, in how the economy is going. Americans still have an auto industry, weakened, but still standing. That means that it can recover, and provide American made vehicles and American jobs, in the future.
America still has a banking industry, and that will allow it to do the same.
Only months ago, Americans were posting here of a massive depression, and were (understandably) quite fearful.
America is slowly winding down it's war in Iraq, and that's also good news. This will start to reduce the enormous cost in both human tragedy and money, that was being lost there. This will also help to offset the money used to strengthen the economy when it was needed.
A perfect situation ? Far from it, but also far better than it was back in November on almost every front one looks at. It looks to be improving, in a slow steady climb out of the mess Obama was handed, and thanks to his foresight.
Oh yeah....in these very difficult times America now faces ?
Obama's approval rating is STILL higher overall compared to ANY day Bush was in office in his second term.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/presidency/ig/Presidential-Approval/Bush-Approval-Rating--.htm
Quite remarkable.....
Can America have new direction in Government?
It already does....
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
69 (
view
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A new direction in Government?
Posted:
6/21/2009 12:33:39 AM
One thing that I notice about Americans, and I have been one my entire life, is that they DON'T like the idea of change, especially if they don't know if it tried and true... Especially if it is something that would be nation wide, and people don't know how it is going to affect them, and their bottom financial line...
Rather fascinating, from a country that was born of revolution, one launched against the world's greatest superpower (at the time) - and with this rather silly notion that this new American version of democracy was somehow better than what existed already ?
Like that would ever work out ?
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
29 (
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Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, being reelected for a second constitutional term
Posted:
6/20/2009 8:38:40 PM
This actually may be the "Persian version" of Tiananmen Square, almost twenty years later, to the day.
Fareed Zakaria: One of the first things that strikes me is we are watching the fall of Islamic theocracy.
CNN: Do you mean you think the regime will fall?
Zakaria: No, I don't mean the Iranian regime will fall soon. It may -- I certainly hope it will -- but repressive regimes can stick around for a long time. I mean that this is the end of the ideology that lay at the basis of the Iranian regime.
The regime's founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, laid out his special interpretation of political Islam in a series of lectures in 1970. In this interpretation of Shia Islam, Islamic jurists had divinely ordained powers to rule as guardians of the society, supreme arbiters not only on matters of morality but politics as well. When Khomeini established the Islamic Republic of Iran, this idea was at its heart. Last week, that ideology suffered a fatal wound.
CNN: How so?
Zakaria: When the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, declared the election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a "divine assessment," he was indicating it was divinely sanctioned. But no one bought it. He was forced to accept the need for an inquiry into the election. The Guardian Council, Iran's supreme constitutional body, met with the candidates and promised to investigate and perhaps recount some votes. Khamenei has subsequently hardened his position but that is now irrelevant. Something very important has been laid bare in Iran today --- legitimacy does not flow from divine authority but from popular support.
CNN: There have been protests in Iran before. What makes this different?
Zakaria: In the past the protests were always the street against the state, and the clerics all sided with the state. When the reformist president, Mohammed Khatami, was in power, he entertained the possibility of siding with the street, but eventually stuck with the establishment. The street and state are at odds again but this time the clerics are divided. Khatami has openly sided with the challenger, Mir Hossein Moussavi, as has the reformist Grand Ayatollah Montazeri. So has Ali Larijani, the speaker of the parliament and a man with strong family connections to the highest levels of the religious hierarchy. Behind the scenes, the former president, Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, now head of the Assembly of Experts, another important constitutional body, is waging a campaign against Ahmadinejad and even the supreme leader himself. If senior clerics dispute Khamenei's divine assessment and argue that the Guardian Council is wrong, it is a death blow to the basic premise behind the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is as if a senior Soviet leader had said in 1980 that Karl Marx was not the right guide to economic policy.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/zakaria.iran.elections/index.html
I think he's right on the mark, and this may prove to be the most singularly important event in the region in a generation. Thanks to technology, repressive regimes have a weakened control over their citizens. Images of what's going on can be, and have been, posted for everyone in the world to see.
Things like Twitter (and other social networking tools) are proving their potential for communication.
It's also cast aside this "face" of Iran, all too often portrayed in the media, that they are some evil and monolithic society. If one reads some Iranian blogs, one quickly sees a rather obvious Western influence on daily life there. Reading the words of their teenagers, one sees them quite close to any Western teenager in their views on things.
The secret to success there is to empower this youth movement, and it's demographics, not turn it off.
As for the Iranians having the bomb, it's only use is as a deterrent against others. Israel has German Dolphin class submarines, and I can assure you that they are not sitting out in the desert somewhere. They are armed with nuclear weapons (the only real reason, aside from covert insertions and intelligence gathering) , and those weapons are there to make sure anyone planning to get a free falafel at the "We Just Nuked Israel" celebration better be very close to the front of the line.
A Shia Muslim nuclear attack against Israel, or ANY such an attack, is going to kill one heck of a lot of Sunni Arabs as well. If life is bad for them there now, it will be MUCH worse after such an explosion. That's one of Israel's greatest defenses against such an attack, as are those Dolphin class subs.
Any nuclear attack there, by a nation state, is going to be quickly and heavily responded against.
All potential attackers know this, and that's why they can shake their sabers and rattle their swords.....and keep their fingers off the launch button.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
67 (
view
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A new direction in Government?
Posted:
6/20/2009 8:21:56 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT asking that doctors (or even CEO's for that matter) work for a pittance. They certainly deserve to get something back for that training and time spent. I also know a lot of doctors that are really good examples of the medical profession, and that's heartening to see.
First, a quick general overview of what our system is :
Canada's system is known as a single payer system, where basic services are provided by private doctors (since 2002 they have been allowed to incorporate), with the entire fee paid for by the government at the same rate. Most family doctors receive a fee per visit. These rates are negotiated between the provincial governments and the province's medical associations, usually on an annual basis. A physician cannot charge a fee for a service that is higher than the negotiated rate — even to patients who are not covered by the publicly funded system — unless the physican opts out of billing the publicly funded system altogether. Pharmaceutical costs are set at a global median by government price controls. Other areas of health care, such as dentistry and optometry, are wholly private.
It was not until 1946 that the first Canadian province introduced near universal health coverage. Saskatchewan had long suffered a shortage of doctors, leading to the creation of municipal doctor programs in the early twentieth century in which a town would subsidize a doctor to practice there. Soon after, groups of communities joined to open union hospitals under a similar model. There had thus been a long history of government involvement in Saskatchewan health care, and a significant section of it was already controlled and paid for by the government. In 1946, Tommy Douglas' Co-operative Commonwealth Federation government in Saskatchewan passed the Saskatchewan Hospitalization Act, which guaranteed free hospital care for much of the population. Douglas had hoped to provide universal health care, but the province did not have the money.
In 1950, Alberta created a program similar to Saskatchewan's. Alberta, however, created Medical Services (Alberta) Incorporated (MS(A)I) in 1948 to provide prepaid health services. This scheme eventually provided medical coverage to over 90% of the population.
In 1957, the federal government passed the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act to fund 50% of the cost of such programs for any provincial government that adopted them. The HIDS Act outlined five conditions: public administration, comprehensiveness, universality, portability, and accessibility. These remain the pillars of the Canada Health Act.
By 1961, all ten provinces had agreed to start HIDS Act programs. In Saskatchewan, the act meant that half of their current program would now be paid for by the federal government. Premier Woodrow Lloyd decided to use this freed money to extend the health coverage to also include physicians. Despite the sharp disagreement of the Saskatchewan College of Physicians and Surgeons, Lloyd introduced the law in 1962 after defeating the Saskatchewan Doctors' Strike in July.
Medical Care Act
The Saskatchewan program proved a success and the federal government of Lester B. Pearson, pressured by the New Democratic Party (NDP) who held the balance of power, introduced the Medical Care Act in 1966 that extended the HIDS Act cost-sharing to allow each province to establish a universal health care plan. It also set up the Medicare system. In 1984, the Canada Health Act was passed, which prohibited user fees and extra billing by doctors. In 1999, the prime minister and most premiers reaffirmed in the Social Union Framework Agreement that they are committed to health care that has "comprehensiveness, universality, portability, public administration and accessibility."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
Now what's the average salary here, you might ask ?
Doctors in Canada make an average of $202,000 a year (2006, before expenses). Alberta has the highest average salary of around $230,000, while Quebec has the lowest average annual salary at $165,000, creating interprovincial competition for doctors and contributing to local shortages.
- Ibid
Since that dates back a few years, especially considering the economic times we live in, that strikes me as a pretty fair average salary for a job you have for life - if you are any good at all. Remember, AVERAGE salary.....
And the main source of our "brain drain" are doctors leaving for the USA, and so your problem contributes to our problems.
Canada's shortage of medical practitioners causes problems.With 2.1 doctors per thousand population in 2006, Canada is well below the OECD average of 3.1. Canada's 8.8 nurses per thousand was also below the OECD average of 9.7. Suggested solutions include increasing the number of training spaces for doctors in Canada, as well as streamlining the licensing process for foreign doctors already in the country.
In 1991, the Ontario Medical Association agreed to become a province-wide closed shop, making the OMA union a monopoly. Critics argue that this measure has restricted the supply of doctors to guarantee its members' incomes.
According to a 2007 article from CTV News, the Canadian medical profession is suffering from a brain drain. The article states, "One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States...If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the U.S. are excluded, the number is one in 12."
-Ibid
The College of Physicians/ Medical associations are another problem, with their archaic rules and regulations. It's a travesty to see that a doctor can come here from another country, one where he was well trained, and find walls blocking his entry into the profession in Canada. While it's true that one has to maintain a standard, it should be fairly clear as to who is capable and who is not - based on education and experience. That they can declare a province a "closed shop" when doctors are sorely needed is a prime example of that.
I see the true solution to this as being a multi-faceted one. One also must do things like pressure industries to eliminate or reduce health risks. Canada enacted some tough laws on cigarette advertising, and one can no longer even SEE cigarettes in stores - they are kept behind the counter.
The same thing can be done for things like alcohol and fast foods.
These types of things will have a long term impact on health care costs, as will other factors like pollution. Removing lead and other toxins from the environment is another good example of how government regulation can assist private industry towards a common goal.
As for your question on who will fund medical research towards better drugs and techniques ?
The market, as it always has.
Those places are not going to shut down, if the USA moves towards some kind of a UHC program. Of course, as I've said over and over again, this has to fit YOUR cultural filters , and cannot be just picked up and transplanted from some other country. You can learn from those places, but they will inevitably have to be modified to fit your culture.
Medicare is a product of a Canadian cultural filter, and you can see that in it's definition :
" public administration, comprehensiveness, universality, portability, and accessibility"
Medical care , in our view, is a right - and not a privilege. Your bank account should not decide who lives and dies.
Those research labs and scientists will still be looking for better cures and solutions, as they always have, since the medical profession began.
That threat is a bit like the threat that was leveled against Canadian drugs, when too many Americans started buying them. Suddenly, they were deemed as being "possibly dangerous".
We were doing OK taking them, but Americans were in great danger.
That's the great part about these capitalists that are trumpeting free trade and open markets. They LOVE such markets when it helps them make more money. Should the same concept be used for the consumer, that loud siren at the top of the roof starts to go off.
Look at things like "medical tourism" , where Americans are actually going to first rate hospitals in other nations, like South Africa. Even with all costs included, it's cheaper than getting it done at home. Rather surprisingly, many of those hospitals have better recovery rates than US ones.
Something is really wrong, when that starts happening.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
63 (
view
)
A new direction in Government?
Posted:
6/20/2009 6:40:23 PM
n Canada they have the same drugs we have they just pay much less for them it appears that UHC is working there and has not driven out the drug companies, where do you think the doctors are going to go to find better wages then they have right here? Maybe to China where the average hourly wage is 48 cents per hour.
One of the main reasons you will see so many articles against UHC in the USA.
We had a wonderful little example here of just how the medical profession can take advantage of a situation. In one of our hospitals, we have an MRI unit, and that unit only runs during regular hours. With the cost of such equipment, and the need for treatment, that's idiotic. It's like buying a Ferrari, and then only driving it for an hour a week.
Well, it didn't take long for the media to find out that some doctors had decided to work after hours after all, and they had rented the MRI unit off the hospital - and made a small fortune doing so.
That was quickly stopped, after the outcry.
The fundamental question here is why did you become a doctor, and whatever happened to that oath you took while doing so. It should be like any other profession, and less experienced staff should be working nights and weekends until they gain more. This is even more galling, because the Canadian education system provides a rather inexpensive means of becoming the doctor in the first place - far less than the USA. In fact, we have many American kids studying at places like McGill for their doctors license (it's still cheaper than the USA, although they pay more than a Canadian citizen would).
We also have doctor's that are upset, because people need services in rural and outlying areas here. Being forced to move there is unthinkable, even after taking that oath to cure people.
Again, after having had access to taxpayer subsidized education, that's given them world class medical training and a license - they seem ( far too many times) to think that this is any reason to (even temporarily) sacrifice and give something back to society after graduation.
I know a few doctors here, and trust me ....they are making rather good money.
With that position, they also have a unique gift. How many jobs do YOU know where you have a job for life ? It's not like people are going to stop getting sick, you know ? That job also makes things like buying a house rather easy, with that type of potential for not being laid off or fired.
One of the things I've constantly heard all of my career working, is that money isn't a prime motivator. That's typically said by people making at least twice as much as I am, and their motivation seems to be fine. Maybe it's time to say the same for other professions, like MDs and CEOs ?
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
59 (
view
)
A new direction in Government?
Posted:
6/20/2009 10:44:28 AM
nexthyme,
Canada has had medicare since 1966, and for most of that time it's worked well. As fiddler said, and I agree totally, any problems we have with it are do to how it's being run - and not the concept itself. Now, one has to understand that most working Canadians also pay for some private medical insurance, as I do. They still pay a lot less than most Americans ever will.
In my province, Quebec, citizens must have an insurance program for prescriptions, by law. This is generally the same plan many people have to begin with, but simply mandates having one - which some people didn't before that law came into effect years ago.
Canadians can also change jobs easily, without worrying about losing protection.
That's typically done to get some improvements, things like private or semi-private rooms, etc. It's also done to help pay for prescriptions , and things like eye exams and dental work (which aren't covered by medicare).
That's one thing, when one looks at our comparative tax rates, to consider. To fairly judge the real differences, one has to include all medical costs for insurance and treatment into the mix, with some other things.
As for the general topic at hand, we've see the result of unbridled capitalism without government oversight. Capitalism is indeed a great system, but allowing the types of restrictions and protections that were placed on it after the Great Depression (for some very good reasons) to be removed resulted in a total economic disaster for the USA.
Without that government intervention, right now the American economy would be in a far greater meltdown. It's automotive, banking, and insurance industries would have been virtually destroyed - it's bad enough as it is now. For those that claim it's too much to support, they'd also be the first one's in line screaming that government was doing nothing if millions more Americans were losing their savings, jobs, and housing while they sat there.
Again, look at the Japanese model of laissez faire , when their economy stumbled. They did nothing, and it dragged on for a lengthy time - and the Japanese lost money and hope while they did.
Obama seems to be smart enough to realize that government cannot involve itself totally in commercial ventures, but cannot allow itself not to step in when needed to ensure basic things.
I remember writing a post quite a while ago, about how the American government should mandate far higher gas mileage standards - and it was met with howls of protest from some Americans reading it - who said government had to right to impose such measures, and that it was a private business decision to make.
Or not make...
That's one of the problems that lead to the meltdown of the automotive industry, and it never had to happen. CEO's of such companies (already hit once badly by EXACTLY the same problem in the Seventies) totally failed to think it would ever happen again. They failed to realize that the cost of gasoline was an important factor that impacted greatly on their market.
Instead, they spent time continuing to design gas guzzlers, and flashy sports cars. Ford GT 40 remake anyone ? Maybe a Sixties muscle car ? A truck that needs it's own postal code ?
Far sexier to stand beside when at that auto show, or to talk about when being interviewed by some magazine.
When gas prices increased, they were all too expensive for most Americans to operate, due to the long distances they drive.
These types of things are (in a sense) national security issues. Failure to account for them weakens the nation if things go the wrong way - as they inevitably will. American capitalism's greatest flaw, was it's faith in the "brilliance" of many of it's business leaders. Those overpaid dinosaurs were far more interested in quick gains, ponzi schemes, and collecting huge bonuses than they ever were in looking out for the icebergs that they were headed towards - the one's that destroyed their companies, and the American economy.
That Ayn Rand like ego also allowed them to pressure government to remove those protections to make even more money.....short term.
The cost, in the end, would be high - and placed on the backs of the American taxpayer.
So government must learn from this, and it's past experience in the Great Depression, and realize it's place in the market economy. It cannot, nor should not, run business - but oversee it to avoid such future problems. If such regulations prevented or lessened problems in the past, and their recent removal allowed them, then the argument against them is moot.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
9 (
view
)
Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted:
6/19/2009 7:15:01 AM
Satan in the Christian cosmology allegedly had the free-will to rebel against God. Well if he has the free will to do that, why stick with the program. If he allegedly knows he is doomed...if he has seen an all-powerful God and knows he is but a sub-ordinate creature and knows that he is but a tool of prophecy, then why not ask for forgiveness?
It would be the height of absurdity not to. It would be a bit like a melodrama villain from central casting with even less than one dimension and not a spiritual entity that has been around since the beginning of time to not know which way the wind is blowing...
It does seem like Satan is there in Hell surrounded by all those wooden crates stamped Acme, just waiting until the day God goes "Meep Meep" , so he can hold up that little sign marked " Yikes!" ... again ?
If he "wins", he invalidates God's word.....but he can do that by "losing" just as well.
That was a rather enlightening post on the examination of the same theological problem by the early Christians, btw. Thanks for opening my eyes to it. I'll have to delve deeper into that aspect.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
1 (
view
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Sympathy for the Devil ?
Posted:
6/15/2009 1:02:10 PM
One of the ideas that has crossed my mind recently has been on some theological problems I've stumbled across with Christianity - and especially the Roman Catholic religion.
Now, although it's rather unlikely, I was thinking that one particular potential concept poses some rather interesting challenges to the Roman Catholic Church. To discuss this, one has to accept the concept of the Devil and his existence, as a base idea.
Now, what would happen if (God forbid) Lucifer decided to take an earthly form and walk into a Roman Catholic Church, accept Christ as his personal savior, and ask to be baptized ? I don't mean to imply that he'd try and pull a fast one (like he would ever think of such a thing
) and try to mislead the priest into thinking he was someone else .
I mean the Monarch of Hell actually honestly stating who and what he was and sincerely asking to become a Christian.
Now, talk about a problem for a priest.
It's the penultimate saving of a soul, kind of like winning Powerball in a theological sense.
I mean we are probably easily talking sainthood here, aren't we ?
Except for one thing..... baptizing removes all prior sins. And it gets even worse.... ANY baptized person can perform the same sacrament on another...... oh....and simply ASKING for it seems to get you in if you are about to die (not really a problem for Satan, I'd guess, but still worth mentioning in passing. )
Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.
The baptism of desire applies both to those who, while wishing to be baptized, die before receiving the sacrament and "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience" (Constitution on the Church, Second Vatican Council).
The Minister of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Since the form of baptism requires just the water and the words, the sacrament, like the Sacrament of Marriage, does not require a priest; any baptized person can baptize another. In fact, when the life of a person is in danger, even a non-baptized person—including someone who does not himself believe in Christ—can baptize, provided that the person performing the baptism follows the form of baptism and intends, by the baptism, to do what the Church does—in other words, to bring the person being baptized into the fullness of the Church.
The Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Baptism has six primary effects, which are all supernatural graces:
1. The removal of the guilt of both Original Sin (the sin imparted to all mankind by the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden) and personal sin (the sins that we have committed ourselves).
2. The remission of all punishment that we owe because of sin, both temporal (in this world and in Purgatory) and eternal (the punishment that we would suffer in hell).
3. The infusion of grace in the form of sanctifying grace (the life of God within us); the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit; and the three theological virtues.
4. Becoming a part of Christ.
5. Becoming a part of the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth.
6. Enabling participation in the sacraments, the priesthood of all believers, and the growth in grace.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Sac_Baptism.htm
One the other hand, in one simple move, you've destroyed Christianity while doing so.
That seems a little extreme right ?
Well, what happens to all the words written in the Bible in Revelations ? Those things can never happen if good ol' Beelzebub gets a mulligan and throws in the towel. It's game over essentially, and you have to wonder what would happen to the Roman Catholic Church if such a "victory" was ever accomplished.
In Catholic teachings, Saint Michael is viewed as the leader of the army of God. From the time of the apostles, he has been invoked and honored as the protector of the Church. Scripture describes him as "one of the chief princes" and the leader of Heaven's forces in their triumph over the powers of hell.
Saint Michael defeats Satan twice, first when he ejects Satan from Paradise, and then in the final battle of the end times. In his classic book Lives of the Saints, priest and hagiographer Alban Butler, defined the role of Saint Michael as follows:
"Who is like God?" was the cry of Archangel Michael when he smote the rebel Lucifer in the conflict of the heavenly hosts. And when Antichrist shall have set up his kingdom on earth, it is St Michael who will unfurl once more the standard of the cross, sound the last trumpet, bind together the false prophet and the beast and hurl them for all eternity into the burning pool.
It was Saint Michael who vanquished Satan and drove him out of Heaven. In the Book of Revelation (Rev 12, 7-9) Saint John wrote of Archangel Michael's role in the War in Heaven where he hurls Satan and the Fallen angels out of heaven to earth:
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
In Catholic teachings, Saint Michael will also triumph at the end times when Antichrist will be defeated by him. In the Bible, The Book of Daniel states:
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people - everyone whose name is found written in the book - will be delivered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=22396049
So, in one foul swoop, such a baptism would automatically negate all those biblical concepts and means St. Micheal gets robbed of that final victory.
Suddenly, there is no Antichrist, nor final showdown.....
Devil of a problem, isn't it ?
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
305 (
view
)
guns at home
Posted:
6/15/2009 11:54:00 AM
I'll go a little more into your "options". What if that person who is breaking in isn't after you stuff, what if they are after you? Leaving you're home is one of the worst things to do. Again, LE probably isn't going to get their quick enough unless they happen to be a block away. Even then, by the time it goes through dispatch you may be dead. As far as home security, I'll say again that unless you've spend thousands of dollars on it, and I'm not talking about lights and alarms, then you aren't keeping anyone out. I've seen safety glass at an institution break with one hit from a bare hand. Granted they'd need more than that one hit to get through it, but they could have been inside rather quickly if they wanted to. Houses have regular glass in them that can be gotten through in a matter of seconds.
I think one of the things that complicates the discussion are indeed these cultural filters that Americans and non-Americans have with how they see firearms. Many (but certainly not all) Americans see them strongly as a weapon of personal self-defense as their primary function. That's something that (for most non-Americans) certainly isn't the case, in anywhere near the same numbers.
I've got a unique perspective on this one, as I both work in an alarm central every night - as well as know a few people with firearms. I've NEVER met any Canadian that's ever said ( while owning a firearm) that they'd would use it in any way as a personal way of defending themselves. Legally, if one follows regulations here concerning how such things are stored, it's almost impossible for one to use a gun quickly enough to stop any attacker anyway.
These people talk about target shooting, or hunting, or even about collecting weapons - but that last bit about killing someone defending themselves is never brought up.
Again , and it's certainly worth repeating in defense of this cultural filter argument that I'm seeing here, Montreal police fired only one hundred rounds while on duty.......in five years, and for ALL reasons (including accidental discharges). That's twenty rounds a year average, in Canada's second largest city.
For an American, this number of rounds fired by police officers in a city this large (and with something like 7,000 officer or so) is unfathomable. I've talked to police officers here, some with a decade plus of experience, and they've never even FIRED their weapons outside of the range - and have seldom even drawn it while on duty.
Now, going back to my unique perspective in a professional sense, I sometimes get alarms where people are at home and think they've got an intruder on their property at three am or so. In Montreal, such a call given to 911 here will almost certainly result in a police car (or several) being on scene within minutes. Over the course of my professional career, this has perhaps happened a dozen or more times. During such incidents (after dispatch) I am on the phone speaking with them as we both wait for the police to arrive - and I am also watching the clock. Without fail, in almost every case, police have been at the premises within three to five minutes.
Most times, with the highest level of alarms where people are convinced that someone is inside their house or on their property, that's at the fastest level of response - especially if duress or panic alarms have been hit.
In over thirteen years of work, I've perhaps done thousands of commercial hold up alarms, and out of those perhaps far less than half a dozen involved a real firearm being used. There's kind of this inside joke with new operators when one watches their reaction when they realize that someone actually had a gun while committing a crime - it's that rare. It never fails to kind of "shock" them. Such arrests of an armed suspect kind of become the talk of the office for awhile, simply for their rarity.
I've never known anyone that's been robbed on the street, and few that have even had break-ins in their residences.
I walk the streets at any hour of the day, in a working class area, without ANY fear or worry. This is how I've lived my entire life. Of course, something could happen, but the statistical probability of such an incident is so low as to be nothing of concern. One still has to maintain situational awareness, but there is no paranoia about it.
This is how most Canadians I know see life without firearms as personal protection.
This is not only due to our gun laws and our society, but it's also due to this lack of the gun "myth" that empowers how Americans see such things in our DNA. Even our best known national symbol , the RCMP, is known for "getting their man" and bringing him back alive. Our military is seen (by most of the population) as a "peace keeping force" , and not an aggressive military unit.
When we got involved in ISAF operations in Afghanistan, the military had to send people out on a PR mission to remind Canadians that this WASN'T another peace mission - and that combat was to be expected, and that our soldiers were going to be actually killing people. This was after the initial invasion, when our forces moved into the region in numbers.
A few years ago, the government created a TV ad for recruitment for the forces, and it didn't test or prove very effective. It was kind of seen as "American" , with it's focus on aggressive action and counter terrorism.
“Scenarios that combine the sense of action/equipment/risk with compassion would appear to be of the greatest interest,” the study concludes.
The Canadian Forces launched the “fight” recruiting campaign, which marries grainy images to the words “fight fear,” “fight distress” and “fight chaos,” in September 2006. It has helped increase applications by up to 40 per cent.
One that shows Canadian Forces personnel helping a woman found the least resistance, but also attracted few strong supporters.
The other two yielded polarized opinions. Some disliked one ad because the pilot depicted in an image “had a ‘facelessness’ that was seen as too aggressively militaristic.”
In general, says the Decima report, the “fight” concept was fairly well received by the focus groups. Unlike some earlier ads, none of the new scenarios pictures Canadian troops in combat.
One that shows a Canadian Forces team responding to a civilian air crash in the North was judged most effective. Next most popular was a scenario showing CF-18 jets intercepting a civilian aircraft and escorting it out of restricted airspace.
On the other hand, “visuals of a soldier holding a gun can work,” the study says.
“However, this would be more effective if it were part of a group of pictures, with a soldier in a more defensive position. As a prime visual, in a more aggressive stance, a soldier holding a gun can evoke negative reactions.”
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=022ce363-c17c-42c9-ad77-e2d81e5f4de9
Now Americans may find it kind of fascinating that a nation's military recruitment strategy would NOT want to show such nasty images as a soldier actually HOLDING a weapon, nor show any troops in combat - because that might actually put too many people off the concept of signing up.
These are reflections of our cultural filters at work, when dealing with the topic of firearms, and I respectfully submit them for your consideration if you do not live here.
When we walk into this discussion, this essential difference in how we view firearms in society means we "talk past" one another and are seemingly confused by some of the comments made on both sides. We do not see the same things in the same way, because of these differences.
If both sides start to understand this, then we can perhaps better discuss it and come to some appreciation of it.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
281 (
view
)
guns at home
Posted:
6/14/2009 9:40:00 AM
Obviously, if deadly force isn't needed, it shouldn't be used, but it should always be an option to have on the table in case it is needed.
Even I agree with that, and one's right to self defense is always justified - as long as it matches the threat level in the local legal sense. Shooting someone in the back, running away with your TV, isn't justifiable imho.
One of the things about some of the gun owners that one sees commenting on POF has aways disturbed me. It seems to me (at least by my cultural filters) that there's almost this pornographic sense of pleasure about "killing some punk at 3 am" in a "Dirty Harry" kind of way. Without such comments, I'd feel a lot better about self-defense.
Killing someone should be the last thing on your list, given no other options, and only in the most extreme of circumstances. Even then, it should not be something seen as a "positive" act that should be in any way looked forward to. That type of mentality (at least to me) simply increases the odds of someone shooting someone without realizing the totality of the event at hand first.
This leads to shootings that , although they may in fact be "legal" , that are unjustified after one examines all the facts, or (even worse) are mistakes. The example I submitted about that African American police officer killed by other officers while in a plainclothes pursuit of someone that had broken into his car is a perfect example of the latter. Insurance is there for a reason, and running down a public street at any hour with a drawn weapon is just asking for mistakes like this to occur.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/13/2009 5:57:42 PM
As advanced in the "Waterboarding is torture" thread, I remain unconvinced that anything of value was obtained directly from it - and research does seem to back that up.
Retired FBI agent: Waterboarding produced 'crap' information from detainee
Contradicting the assertions of President Bush and waterboarding advocates at the CIA, federal investigators say a suspected al Qaeda operative who was subjected to the simulated drowning technique produced increasingly unreliable information after his interrogators began treating him harshly.
Abu Zubaida was captured in 2002 and moved through the CIA's secret prison system for much of that year. Although the FBI says Zubaida was a fairly low-level associate of some al Qaeda players, the CIA was convinced that he actually was a high-level terrorist who simply was holding out on them.
They turned to waterboarding and other unknown harsh interrogation techniques in an attempt to break the suspect, but ended up producing little more than a stream of specious claims delivered under duress from a suspect who was having water forced into his lungs, according to a former investigator who reviewed his case file.
In his first month of captivity, report the Post's Dan Eggen and Walter Pincus, Zubaida handed over information that led to the capture of Jose Padilla and identified Khalid Sheik Mohammed as a 9/11 plotter.
That was all before the CIA turned to harsh techniques. Instead of continuing what appeared to be working, though, the CIA was convinced Zubaida was holding out on them, and they decided to begin "not torturing" him by keeping him naked in his cell, subjecting him to extreme cold and playing loud rock music at all hours.
FBI agents had been pleased with Zubaida's earlier disclosures but were dismayed by the harsh treatment he was then subjected to.
"They said, 'You've got to be kidding me,'" Coleman told Eggen and Pincus, recalling accounts from FBI employees who were there. "'This guy's a Muslim. That's not going to win his confidence. Are you trying to get information out of him or just belittle him?'" Coleman helped lead the bureau's efforts against Osama bin Laden for a decade, ending in 2004.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Retired_FBI_agent_Waterboarding_produced_crap_1218.html
As pointed out in the other thread, some of that wonderful information that was being touted as so valuable was available in the newspapers of Pakistan on the second anniversary of 9/11 - in an interview given by men later captured.
" identified Khalid Sheik Mohammed as a 9/11 plotter" .... which is surprising because he did an interview in Pakistan BEFORE he was captured that said exactly that.
"The journalist was taken to the Pakistan city of Karachi, driven five miles into the countryside, blindfolded, then brought to a clandestine rendezvous on the fourth floor of a sparsely furnished flat. He believes that it was in Karachi."
"There he met Mr Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a former flatmate of Mohamed Atta, the hijack ringleader. Mr bin al-Shibh is a suspect in the bombing of the USS Cole, when 17 sailors were killed in the port city of Aden in Yemen in October 2000. He described himself as head of al-Qaeda's military committee. "
"The two men spoke of September 11 as "Holy Tuesday". They described the attacks using the Arabic word ghazwah, which means a raid against enemies of the Prophet, Mr Fouda wrote in The Sunday Times."
"It had taken 2 years to plan the attacks, the men disclosed. Al-Qaeda's military committee had decided there must be a "martyrdom operation" inside America. Nuclear targets were the first choice, but they were ruled out for now, Mr Mohammed said. "
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/3/15/13351/2245
The one "gem" revealed, the discovery of the Garuba cell, seems to well....not hold much water.
After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that allowed the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already “tasked” with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.
“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM — once enhanced techniques were employed — led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo, referring to information CIA provided to Justice.
“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” said the memo.
http://www.luxlibertas.com/cia-waterboarding-produced-intel-that-stopped-attack-on-los-angeles/
Hambali used a series of safe-houses throughout Southeast Asia, especially Thailand and Cambodia to move around. While he was in Ayutthaya, Thailand, 75 kilometers north of Bangkok, he was planning a terrorist attack against several Thai hotels and the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit (APEC) in Bangkok on October 2003. Hambali had used a false Spanish passport to enter Thailand while his wife used her Malaysian passport.
Thai police found him as part of a joint operation between the Thai police and the CIA on August 11, 2003. The twenty uniformed and undercover police smashed down the door to his one bedroom apartment in Ayutthaya, and arrested him and 33-year old Noralwizah Lee Abdullah, a Chinese Malaysian who was considered to be his wife. Hambali was wearing a pair of jeans, a t-shirt, a baseball cap, and a pair of sunglasses. Police also seized explosives and firearms in the property. It marked the end of a 20-month hunt for Hambali, who was 37 years of age when he was captured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambali
That manhunt had already been underway for almost two years, Hamibali was a well known terrorist who had also identified as a close associate of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Anyone with the title of "Asia's Bin Laden" isn't exactly a stranger to security forces worldwide.
Jemaah Islamiyah was well known too, and there was an Australian man named Jack Roche (aka Jihad Jack) that had already been cooperating with AISO ( Australian intelligence ) , or trying to.
By July 2002, Roche had finally realised the enormity of what he was being asked to do, and went to the US consulate in Sydney.
The embassy directed him to the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), where "nobody seemed particularly interested in what was going on", Roche claimed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3757017.stm
When the Bali bombings occurred, in 2002, they actually started to listen to their captive. That predates KSM's capture,btw.
Did anyone ever read of any arrests of this "seventeen man cell" that was discovered ? What ever happened to them, since it was almost ready to go, if you read those assertions.
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- A Malaysian recruited by al-Qaida to pilot a plane in a second wave of Sept. 11-style attacks on the United States has been in custody in his homeland since December 2002, Southeast Asian security officials said Friday.
The recruit, Zaini Zakaria, pulled out of the plot after seeing the carnage at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and was unwilling to die as a martyr for Islam, the officials said.
Bush said cooperation between Washington and several Asian countries helped expose the plot, which he said was derailed when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al-Qaida operative. Bush did not name the country or the operative.
The plan never appeared close to the stage where it could be put into execution. Scores of arrests after Sept. 11, 2001, severely curtailed al-Qaida and its Southeast Asian affiliate, Jemaah Islamiyah.
Zaini, a 38-year-old engineer, was among three men al-Qaida was preparing to take part in an attack on the U.S. West Coast, according to security officials and terrorism experts in Southeast Asia.
The two other men implicated in the alleged plans were Zacarias Moussaoui, who is now in U.S. custody, and Abderraouf Jdey, who remains at large.
After returning to Malaysia the same year, Zaini enrolled in a flight school and obtained a license to fly a small plane. He then began making inquiries in Australia about getting a license to fly a jet, the official said.
But Zaini apparently was never told what his mission would be. When he saw media coverage of the Sept. 11 attacks, he severed his ties with the militants, according to the official.
Zaini told Malaysian interrogators that he "didn't want that kind of jihad," the official said.
A second Malaysian security official said Zaini told the interrogators "he was not prepared to die as a martyr, so he backed out."
The report quoted Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the reputed Sept. 11 mastermind who was captured in 2003, as saying "three potential pilots were recruited for the alleged second wave." It identified them as Moussaoui, Jdey and Zaini.
However, Mohammed told his U.S. interrogators that "he was too busy with the 9/11 plot to plan the second wave of attacks," the report said.
Zaini, a native of the northeastern state of Kelantan, was doing some odd jobs before he surrendered to Malaysian authorities in Kelantan in 2002, apparently because he was worried about an ill relative, said his former lawyer, Saiful Izham Ramli.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060211/ai_n16062261/
Quite interesting that he surrendered and cooperated with authorities in December 2002.
Two of the three pilots were already in custody. Any foreign national with flight school training and any sort of a history thatdidn't involve commercial airline employment (and perhaps even then) was certainly a high topic of interest for security forces on Sept 12th, 2001.
The reason it was given up as a technique was due to it's ineffectiveness, not public outcry. Had it been as effective as claimed, it would have continued and been used on far more people.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
958 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/13/2009 12:20:29 PM
Once they get a foothold in these countries the mandate is to spur further radicalization and unrest for the purpose of overthrowing the existing government and installing their brand of religious theocracy.
A prospect which will be made far easier if one has large numbers of undereducated people without hope or jobs. Just look at what has occurred in Egypt due to these very things.
In particular, the unfairness of the yawning gulf between the haves and the have-nots has engendered the outrage that has led Islamic militants to pursue their restrictive interpretation of religious law. But in conversations with militants from both modest and privileged backgrounds, I have heard a common theme: many militants would relinquish their arms if the laws already in existence were applied fairly and equally.
A comparison to the U.S. youth movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s--when, similarly, super-size cohorts of impatient, idealistic young people felt largely left out of the political process--is tempting. No, Egyptian youth are not staging sit-ins and crashing the gates of the political arena. But the reason they aren't may have more to do with the class barrier and the skewed demographics of sitting politicians than any lack of political will. A substantial number of Egyptian ministers are more than sixty-five years old, belonging to an age group that makes up just 2.2 percent of the population. Most youths cannot visualize themselves to positions of power. What they hope for is that someone they trust, whether judge or religious leader or someone else in tune with their needs, will demand and achieve for them the fairness that, in principle, the law asserts.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_4_113/ai_n6026418/pg_4/?tag=content;col1
This is the battleground that must be conquered, and if the West fails to realize this then violent radical extremist Muslims will certainly capitalize on it. This is where they find their recruits, for the most part.
If one looks at terrorist attacks, and the profile of such attackers, they typically are not well educated or well off. They find refuge and a purpose in their terrorist activity.
Egypt's workers are too numerous and desperate. More than 40% of the country's 80 million people live under the UN poverty line of $2 per day.
http://www.challenge-mag.com/en/article__212
Two dollars a day per person is a pretty easy price to beat, isn't it ?
Here's the best way to save lives in the long run, in my opinion. If one looks at ANY revolution, or extremist group, it cannot survive for very long if one restores hope and a reasonable chance at life to most citizens. It dies off soon after those goals are met. Those better educated and well off , the likes of Bin Laden, cannot then get their ideological hooks into such men and woman.
The time he had spent doing business in Northern Ireland confirmed Bruder's notion that the path to peace and democracy lay not in military intervention or political overhaul but in gainful employment for the people. Jobs, he believed, would produce a middle class; jobs would buttress faltering economies; and jobs would give young people hope, income and something to do other than succumb to extremist dogma.
But jobs are scarce and growing scarcer in Arab countries. The region already faces 15% unemployment, and 90 million new jobs will be needed by 2020 to accommodate the swell of young workers, according to the World Bank.
http://www.efefoundation.org/index.php?m=5&s=2&t=8
Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say "I am strong." — Joel 3:10
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
11 (
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DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted:
6/13/2009 11:53:18 AM
Look, such shootings happen all over the world. They happen a lot more in the USA, which is perhaps understandable due to the amount of people with guns there. It's simply a matter of statistical probability that somewhere in such a group there will be violently insane people.
The province I live in has had four major shooting sprees in the last thirty years or so.
1) University of Montreal Polytechnique (14 dead, 14 wounded)
2) Concordia University ( 4 dead)
3) Dawson College ( 1 dead, 19 wounded)
4) The Quebec National assembly. ( 3 dead, 13 wounded)
The first three were with legal registered weapons, the last one with weapons stolen from a military armory by a soldier.
These are exceptions to the general rule, and perhaps prove it. Our murder and homicide rate is far lower than many countries, and criminals do not rule the streets. This is not only due to our gun laws, but also our cultural influences where guns are not as "valued" as a weapon.
Shootings have occurred in other countries, as well. As long as there are guns and mentally ill people, sometimes the two will intersect. The trick is to see what can be done to oversee that happening less, and that can work.
Gun laws will never STOP such crimes, but they can go a long way towards REDUCING them in their death toll and frequency - if one can culturally accept such an idea. If one can't , then one has to find a way that works within that culture.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/13/2009 11:38:36 AM
Seems we all live in a bubble of sorts, ~ some being larger then others.
Some interesting insight there on living in a border area, dance. You are right, in that someone outside of that environment can't properly place the implications of something like closing a border on people's lives.
Which is kind of the origin of this thread topic, in a really direct way. You are totally right, everyone of us has this bubble. The trick is to realize it, and to see why people see things differently - and why that makes sense.
Although we may be citizens of the world, in our daily life we are far more typically citizens of our neighborhoods and cities. That's "reality" for us, and one of the great things about the internet is being able to have people from all over the world bringing these differing viewpoints to the table to share.
Sometimes we can far too easily dismiss some idea as ridiculous or inferior, simply because we can't place it in the proper context. These cultural filters that we all see the world through sometimes blind us to why things are as they are.
You can see this pretty easily when you discuss things like gun laws, or even the American version of democracy and capitalism. What an American sees as the best choice isn't necessarily what others see as being that. This has actually been a long standing problem with some American foreign policy.
In revolutionary times, America tried to get British citizens to rebel against their "oppressors". Montreal was invaded, and Quebec City almost was.
The Invasion of Canada in 1775 was the first major military initiative by the newly-formed Continental Army during the American Revolutionary War. The objective of the campaign was to gain military control of the British Province of Quebec, and convince the French-speaking Canadiens to join the revolution on the side of the Thirteen Colonies.
For example, the authorization by the Second Continental Congress to General Philip Schuyler for the campaign included language that, if it was "not disagreeable to the Canadians", to "immediately take possession of St. John's, Montreal, and any other parts of the Country", and to "pursue any other measures in Canada" that might "promote peace and security" of the colonies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Canada_(1775)
Seems that the "Canadians" disagreed.....
Out of this momentous decision came one of the most amazing military expeditions of all time: Colonel Benedict Arnold's birch bark-canoe invasion of Canada, the first amphibious military assault in our nation's history. Arnold was to lead 1,100 soldiers from Massachusetts to Maine, then up the Kennebec and Dead Rivers into Canada by way of the Chaudiere River to Quebec City. Another army under Generals Phillip Schuyler and Richard Montgomery was to invade from New York, take Montreal, then meet Colonel Arnold at Quebec. This all came about, but ended in defeat for the Americans inasmuch as the British were well-positioned at Quebec, and Arnold's small army had been reduced by half by desertions. The French-Canadians did not rally to the American flag. Montgomery, replacing an ill Schuyler, was killed early in the attack; Arnold was wounded; and the campaign dissolved into disaster and retreat for the dejected remnants of the invading army.
http://www.theamericanrevolution.org/battles/bat_queb.asp
It's never generally a good idea to attack a city in a blizzard, when it's - 31 F, and when you have little popular support from the citizens in the area.
While Wooster at first had decent relations with the community, he took a number of steps that caused the local population to come to dislike the American military presence. After promising American ideals to the population, he began arresting Loyalists and threatening arrest and punishment of anyone opposed to the American cause. He also disarmed several communities, and attempted to force local militia members to surrender their Crown commissions. Those who refused were arrested and imprisoned at Fort Chambly. These and similar acts, combined with the fact that the Americans were paying for supplies and services with paper money rather than coin, served to disillusion the local population about the entire American enterprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Canada_(1775)
Gotta watch out for that "bubble" , because it can come back and bite you.
Then we got to do it all over again in 1812 :
The majority of the inhabitants of Upper Canada (Ontario) were either exiles from the United States (United Empire Loyalists) or postwar immigrants. The Loyalists were hostile to union with the U.S., while the other settlers seem to have been uninterested. The Canadian colonies were thinly populated and only lightly defended by the British Army. Americans then believed that many in Upper Canada would rise up and greet a United States invading army as liberators, a now-discredited belief. The combination suggested an easy conquest, as former President Thomas Jefferson seemed to believe in 1812: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us the experience for the attack on Halifax, the next and final expulsion of England from the American continent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812
That's twice in a little over a generation that an invasion was launched to "liberate" people in what was to become Canada eventually.
At least we both gained an important and valuable goal. It's perhaps the only war I can think of where both sides now declared victory, literally a win/win moment.
If one doesn't understand culture and history, then one can often find themselves in a deja vu type of experience.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
945 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/12/2009 4:18:45 PM
It's not a discussion of right or wrong but rather the outcomes.
It's a discussion on the overall impact of waterboarding in regards to saving lives, and as such it's moral validity is certainly part of the discussion. Actions done by individuals illegally have zero bearing on national policy, especially when such policy is placed against a American historical record that has ALWAYS stood for humane treatment of prisoners under it's care - and the prosecution of those who did not follow such guidelines, even is the American military.
The Lieber Code - the forerunner to the Geneva Convention, was first proposed and implemented during the Civil War.
It was the first expressly codified law that expressly forbade giving "no quarter" to the enemy (killing prisoners of war), except in such cases when the survival of the unit that held these prisoners was threatened. It forbade the use of poisons, stating that use of such puts any force who uses them entirely outside the pale of the civilized nations and peoples; it forbade the use of torture to extract confessions, or for any purpose; it described the rights and duties of prisoners of war and of capturing forces. It described the state of war, the state of occupied territories, the ends of war, and discusses permissible and impermissible means to attain those ends; it discussed the nature of states and sovereignties, and insurrections, rebellions, and wars. As such, it is widely considered to be the first written recital of the customary law of war, in force between the civilized nations and peoples since time immemorial, and the precursor to the Hague Regulations of 1907, the treaty-based restatement of the customary law of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieber_code
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."
The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.
Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.
Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm
This is America's historical legacy, and it was not betrayed against far stronger enemies, in far darker times. Even Washington realized what was morally right and interestingly ....the British realized what was morally wrong.
Betray this, and things like the legacy of the Lieber code, and you betray basic American historical values.
The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
Ronald Reagan
signing statement, ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984
Torture is torture.
If one did not resort to in those dark days of the Revolution, nor in the Civil War that wrenched apart your nation, nor resort to it during WW2 against the Germans and Japanese, nor resort to it during the Cold War.....then using against this enemy to validate it is
nonsensical.
This overall balance sheet is important to note. Even if a few lives were saved, and I've posted some citations in this thread that prove that I've not seen any real evidence of that when placed against what was known BEFORE these men were captured, what is the potential cost for radicalizing hundreds/thousands of people with immoral and illegal actions ?
If some future 9/11 type event is carried out, and the people behind it were driven into the fold by this torture of detained individuals, will you also then add whatever the death toll in your database ?
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
943 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/12/2009 1:54:26 PM
It is simply not true that the US had not used water boarding in the past .
Legally, and without prosecution of anyone doing it ? Please supply a citation.
It is an interrogation method that date back to the 14th century. The interrogation method was used by the Japanese in World War II, by U.S. troops in the Philippines and by the French in Algeria.
And, even at that time, it was viewed as an atrocity.
In military circles, it was considered torture :
As one counterinsurgency study noted:
Officially, the Army condemned the water cure, which fell under [General Order]
100's prohibition of torture. Unofficially, many officers winked at the practice,
and military courts proved exceedingly reluctant to punish officers charged with
applying coercive methods. As the war progressed the number of incidents of
abuse grew as officers...came to believe that the “cure” was the only way to uproot
the guerilla infrastructure. Even well-known champions of the policy of
attraction... conceded that the water cure “might be a good thing if judiciously
administered in occasional doses, provided that the antis [anti-imperialists] at
home did not find it out.”
Andrew Birtle, U.S. Army Counterinsurgency and Contingency Operations Doctrine, 1860-1941,
U.S. Army Center of Military History (1998)
As the French say, "the more things change....."
Spanish-American War
Major Edwin Glenn of the United States was suspended from command for one month and fined $50 for using the water cure. The Army judge advocate said the charges constituted "resort to torture with a view to extort a confession" and recommended disapproval because "the United States cannot afford to sanction the addition of torture."
Philippine-American War
Water cure was among the forms of torture used by American soldiers on Filipinos during the Philippine-American War.President Theodore Roosevelt privately assured a friend that the water cure was "an old Filipino method of mild torture. Nobody was seriously damaged whereas the Filipinos had inflicted incredible tortures on our people." The President went further stating "Nevertheless, torture is not a thing that we can tolerate." However, a report at the time noted its lethality; "a soldier who was with General Funston had stated that he helped to administer the water cure to one hundred and sixty natives, all but twenty-six of whom died". See the Lodge Committee for detailed testimony of the use of the water cure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure
===========================================
On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834
==========================================
See a pattern ?
[qupte] In Cambodia, the Khmer Rogue used water boarding against its own people. The British used it against both Arabs and Jews in occupied Palestine in the 1930s. In the 1970s, it was widely used in Latin America, particularly under the military dictatorships in Chile and Argentina (where it was known as "Asian torture.")
And this is relevant to American policy, how ?
Also the US did not simply prosecute Japeanese prisoners for water boarding rather one soldier was sentenced to 15 years for brutalities which included water boarding.
Totally wrong....
"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."
The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts."
http://patriciashannon.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-executed-japanese-soldiers-for.html
The United States was not alone in prosecuting water torture before national tribunals, nor were the Japanese its sole practitioner. It is worth comparing those trials with Norway’s prosecution of German defendants for the same form of misconduct, and the
United Kingdom’s trial and execution of Japanese interrogators who used the method.
DROP BY DROP:
FORGETTING THE HISTORY OF
WATER TORTURE IN U.S. COURTS
http://tinyurl.com/mf3kbb
Far from being some "minor point", it was in fact one of the main areas of testimony and punishment.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
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Msg:
941 (
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted:
6/12/2009 10:12:46 AM
I suspect he won't go on national tv and tell the American people we were wrong, our policies contributed to the attack, and we're to blame, not the terrorists. He'll strike back. He may not do it in full view, but he'll instruct our military and intelligence services to find the culprits, their bases, and their leaders, and take some action. Bet on it.
It's a double edged sword. One has to strike back at any attacker, while also looking into any possible/probable contributing factors for such an attack. Any nation has not only the right, but the obligation, to protect itself and retaliate if attacked. One simply has to look at the post Munich reaction of Israel to see how such a program can be quite effective, done properly. If one effectively targets and neutralizes the minds behind the planning of such attacks, they tend to become less popular.
At the same time, one cannot ignore the contributing factors of poverty, lack of education, and lack of hope. These are the petri dishes of terrorism, as are foreign political and economic control in a colonial sense. No cause gives anyone the right to kill innocent people, but some causes are also inherently just, and cannot be ignored as being so, regardless of the actions of some independent actors in the overall struggle.
It's a bit like weeding a garden. One takes out the current weeds, and then ensures the future seeds have less chance of germination. To fail to do so means one spends one's entire time weeding, and not looking at possible ways to reduce the time spent doing that.
If one does not fight the battle properly, especially if one betrays one's historical path and views of morale actions, then one creates far more problems in the long run. Against FAR stronger enemies ( Germany, Japan, Russia) the US never used torture or waterboarding. To do so now, against an enemy of far less power, is hypocritical.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
6 (
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DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted:
6/11/2009 5:41:46 PM
I think shrek's point was perhaps more oriented to the fact that it was a rifle, and less so a .22. That caliber has been known to core a victims brain like an apple, in my research on it. The round simply continues around inside the skull, until it stops.
It's perhaps due to a rather stupid choice of assault weapon that the toll wasn't higher. An 89 year old man would certainly not be typically seen by most security people as a primary concern. Had he been armed with a pistol, or sawed off shot gun (weapons he did use in an earlier crime) , the dead and wounded toll might have been higher perhaps.
Officials said Johns didn't have a chance to draw his weapon before von Brunn pulled the trigger. Other guards returned fire, hitting von Brunn and stopping the assault moments after it began.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105247692&ft=1&f=1001
I doubt that one can fault the security, as a surprise attack was stopped almost instantly after it started. One cannot fault them for perhaps not expecting such an attack from an elderly white male, as I said.
A frustrated artist and an angry man, the gunman in the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting once tried to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve board, a caper thwarted when a guard captured him outside a board meeting carrying a bag stuffed with weapons.
James von Brunn, 89, a white supremacist and Holocaust denier, describes the assault with apparent pride on his Web site, the source of fulmination against Jews and races other than his own.
Despite the revolver, sawed-off shotgun and knife found in his bag that day, von Brunn insisted he was trying to place the board under legal, non-violent citizens-arrest.
A self-described artist, advertising man and author living in Annapolis, Maryland, von Brunn wrote an anti-Semitic treatise, 'Kill the Best Gentiles', that he said no one would publish. He decries the 'browning' of America and claims to expose a Jewish conspiracy to destroy the White gene-pool.
Von Brunn also wrote, "The 'Holocaust' Religion is destroying Western Civilization. The Aryan gene-pool dies, 'unwept, unhonored and unsung.'"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091987.html
One would have to wonder how such a person, with such a record and public website, was not under more police scrutiny.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
4 (
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DC shooter: Did the gun ban help him?
Posted:
6/11/2009 4:01:26 PM
These types of incidents happen all over the world, and this incident was ended rather quickly, with the loss of only one innocent victim. As was mentioned, the victim was taken by surprise, and had no chance to respond.
Police and security people sometimes die in the line of duty, no matter how much training they have.
The perpetrator was taken down quickly, and without any additional loss of life. I am sure a report will be done, and the response will be investigated. From what I've read, one of the shots that dropped him was a headshot.
He remained hospitalized in critical condition Thursday from shots fired by other security guards. The complaint says he was shot in the face and fell backward outside the museum's front door.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/11/museum.shooting/index.html
In a fast moving situation, with one person already down, the fact that he was taken out that quickly seems to indicate that those responding did exactly what was required of them. I would imagine that there were other innocent people around, and none seem to have been wounded.
After such an ambush type of attack, it's perhaps the best possible outcome that could have been demanded or expected.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
19 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/11/2009 3:45:26 PM
The current US passport population stands at 18% of US adults. Source : European Travel Commission.
Recent research indicating that Britain is the most popular overseas destination (excluding Canada & Mexico) for US residents. Source: Travel Industry World Yearbook 2000. The top cities for passport ownership are: New York, 38%; San Francisco, 37%; Miami/Fort Lauderdale, 33%; West Palm Beach, 31%; San Diego, 29%; Los Angeles, 27%; Washington DC, 27%. Source: US Office of Central Statistics
http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2003/01/31/how_many_america.php
Compare that to something like 40 % of Canadians, and perhaps 75 % of British citizens.
There's many factors at work here, not the least of which is actual vacation time allowed. In most Western democracies, that figure is almost certainly higher than the average American vacation time by far. That limits one's travel destinations a bit.
On average, European employees get four weeks of vacation. It would take the typical American employee 15 years or longer to attain the same vacation privileges, says Ann Leeds, a Hewitt consultant who specializes in global benefit practices. And as job-hopping becomes more common, fewer Americans ever qualify for such extended vacations. To add insult to injury (at least for leisure-deprived Americans), employers in certain European countries are required to provide a cash "vacation bonus," equal to one-half to one month's pay.
The numbers
Here's the lowdown on how many vacation days the rest of the world enjoys.
According to Hewitt Associates, the country with the most vacation days is Denmark with 31, followed closely by Austria and Finland at 30 days. France and Norway are at 25 days, Germany at 24 days, Belgium, Ireland, the U.K., the Netherlands and Switzerland each at 20 days. Non-European countries measured include Brazil at 22 days, Australia at 20 days and Colombia and New Zealand each at 15 days. The U.S. is second from the bottom with 10 days, tied with both Canada and Japan. Only Mexico, with a piddly six days, offers employees less vacation time.
http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=420&article_id=3810101&cat_id=1223
So if you add all this together, it makes for some rather logical reasons why Americans travel less outside of North America. How many times do Americans really get a chance to see what's happening in other countries ? It's rare that a popular movie from another country gives Americans a chance to see life there, at least ....virtually.
On the other hand, all those other countries citizens ( through films and TV shows) CAN become "virtual Americans".
On American news channels, how much time is devoted to foreign news ?
How many American journalists can speak a second language, meaning they have to rely on locals to translate for them ?
A great example of the final result of all this is how many Americans know next to nothing about Canada, a neighbor that's shared a border with them since 1867, and it's largest trading partner. Although neighbors, few Americans have any real idea of what Canada is, and who we really are.
It seems, at least through reading the forums here, that many can't identify basic facts about us. Personally, I find that fascinating, in so many ways.
As I stated before, when I was in high school, any kid that graduated with me could have EASILY passed any US citizenship test on American history and politics without ANY doubt. That's perhaps again quite logical, due to this cultural predominance I've mentioned.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
17 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/11/2009 2:23:55 PM
Some really good insights here, in the discussion. That part about the way you perceived the differences from the immigration aspect is quite a good one.
But the problem is that when Americans start reacting to all over the world, then they start having an image of supposedly being an "exemplary" country, while USA is anything but an "exemplary" country. I mean it's not bad country at all, but is the only developed country looking very strange among all developed countries.
Shortly, too much power, too much interest in other countries creates huge arrogance, I would say childish arrogance, and it does create problems within USA.
I think part of this is "cultural ignorance" (let me finish) that's due to America having this media that's so powerful and prolific. Americans also don't travel internationally (outside of North America) as much as some other nations do, which adds to that. Just look at the percentage of Americans that hold a passport, which (as a percentage) is quite small. That means , if they travel, they tend to travel to Mexico or Canada - and seldom outside of those countries.
This combines to leave Americans with this feeling that the cultural filters that they have are ones all people should have.
I've related the idea in the past to this analogy of Americans sitting around this large raging bonfire, in this very dark flat open field. In that same field are other countries, sitting around their own "media/culture" bonfires, which are much smaller. People in those groups see the Americans clearly, but Americans can sometimes look out and see no one else - simply due to the roaring flames of theirs.
Personally, I've seen that with American tourists in Montreal, who seek out "American" things like McDonald's. They seem to want to carry their culture with them while traveling.
So this too adds to the mix, and the lack of perception (for some very good cultural reasons) can sometimes blind Americans to the other existing possibilities. As you yourself stated, this equation of socialism and communism is often made, and seen as secondary to the American brand of capitalism thanks to the historic echoes of the Cold War and it's end.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
260 (
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guns at home
Posted:
6/8/2009 12:23:25 PM
A far more effective solution in your case would be to go to the local animal shelter and adopt a dog - which would solve two problems at once. I work in the security business, and that's one of the most effective protections one can have against any intruder. Thieves (and trespassers) tend to take the easiest pick of what's offered to them.
A barking dog tends to make them reconsider their options, most times.
The main fact that will protect you is situational awareness, and without that you are a sitting duck. One doesn't have to be paranoid, but just simply aware of things like locking doors and closing windows. One of the problems I see with firearms is that many times people with them tend to lack this situational awareness, simply due to the fact they are "protected".
In my country, as I've stated, one cannot use self-defense as a reason for the overwhelming majority of gun permits issued. The only exceptions are the extremely rare cases of permits for concealed handguns - which an amazingly small number of people (50 ?) have in this country.
The police do a fairly good job of protecting people here, and that's shown by our crime stats.
It's like that almost everywhere else in the Western civilized world, and works rather well.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
14 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/8/2009 12:12:03 PM
When times aren't so critical, either after the fact, or leading up to the next disaster, we feel the constant bickering over what may or may not be causing the problems is more important than solving any of those problems. We play the blame game, refuse to concede anything, throw roadblocks up, and wonder why nothing ever changes for the better.
Well, you aren't alone there, by any means.
That type of mentality is perhaps universal, as any look at Canadian (or other democratic country's) politics will prove to any non-believers. That's why democracy is so challenging, and also so frustrating.
I think it may be made perhaps more difficult in the USA, thanks to the incredible media drive that magnifies anything a thousand times larger. Perhaps they should put one of those labels from car mirror's on every American TV set.
"Objects in this magical box may appear a lot larger than they actually are.... "
Combine that with corporate influence, and the unique American history and concept of corporate personhood in this post Santa Clara decision world Americans live in, and that's another magnifier of problems. Remember, corporations were considered "people" , with the inherent rights decided by that, long before African Americans were.
Corporations, unlike many Americans, have no problems uniting when it's convenient for any group benefit without fear of anyone playing the "socialism" card.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
12 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/8/2009 7:16:39 AM
Well, American's have reached a point they need to close ranks and come together, it's not a frontier anymore. ~
As you might notice, ~ we have 20% being very bullheaded about it, refusing to accept the realities of it.
I'm not so sure that Americans will EVER be "free" of that concept, for to do so would be to lose what makes an American ......an American.
As far as coming together, Americans have a pretty good record of doing that when it's called for. As a modern example of that, just look at what occurred after 9/11. Although it was a horrific moment in history, the reaction afterwards proved to me ( and many other foreigners) that Americans COULD exist together without political parties, regional differences, or even racial problems. For a while afterwards, Americans were simply......Americans, and united.
That told me the core is there, and always had been there, to work together when called upon.
It was the same with the Depression and the "New Deal", Johnson's successful "War on Poverty" , and also what occurred after the Civil War especially after Lincoln's assassination. In many other countries, such a time would have left deep eternal scars that might never have healed well.
I think that the Civil War had the nature of that kind of experience for the country. Anybody who's looked into it at all realizes that it truly is the outstanding event in American history insofar as making us what we are. The kind of country we are emerged from the Civil War, not from the Revolution. The Revolution provided us with a constitution; it broke us loose from England; it made us free. But the Civil War really defined us. It said what we were going to be, and it said what we're not going to be. It drifted away from the Southern, mostly Virginia, influence up into the New England and Middle Western influence, and we became that kind of nation instead of the other kind of nation.
- Shelby Foote
So this is a beast with two heads. It makes Americans what they are, but also limits them from what they could be. It seems to be easily overridden when the right (or wrong) time occurs, for the good of all.
Let's hope that continues, shall we ?
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
1 (
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Stephen Colbert and the troops
Posted:
6/8/2009 5:36:59 AM
I've been a fan of Colbert for a long time, and he's gone and done it again.
CAMP VICTORY, Iraq -- Stephen Colbert left no doubt about his solidarity with American troops when he taped the first of four Comedy Central shows he'll produce in Iraq this week.
Colbert, wearing a business suit made of the same camouflaged material used for soldiers' desert uniforms, submitted to a regulation military haircut as hundreds of U.S. troops cheered wildly Sunday.
The comedian, who satirizes conservative TV pundits on his "Colbert Report," began his "Operation Iraqi Stephen: Going Commando" USO tour Sunday in the Baghdad headquarters of the U.S.-led military coalition in Iraq.
"It must be nice in Iraq, because some of you keep coming back again and again," Colbert said, joking about the multiple tour many troops have had in Iraq since the 2003 invasion. Some troops had accumulated enough frequent flyer miles to earn them a free ticket to Afghanistan, he joked.
Colbert told his guest, Gen. Ray Odierno, he felt "a little intimidated" by him, not because he was he top U.S. commander in Iraq, but because it felt like he was "interviewing Shrek." Odierno is an imposing bald figure at 6-feet, 5-inches tall.
Odierno said the military is "not yet ready to declare victory" in Iraq and that there was a little more work to be done for long-term stability.
"I, Stephen Colbert, by the power invested in me by basic cable, officially declare we won the Iraq war," Colbert said, as his audience broke out into applause.
The interview was interrupted when President Obama appeared on large television screens. The commander-in-chief told his general it was time to "cut that man's hair."
With white electric hair clippers in his hand, Ordierno stood up and began shaving Colbert's trademark thick dark hair. The troops stood and cheered as a female member of Colbert's staff finished the job.
After the haircut, Colbert ran through the audience, high-fiving the troops as he showed off his new military look.
One Army major said that "shaving of the hair is an amazing show of support" that was "very touching."
Former Republican presidential nominee John McCain also made a pre-taped appearance on the show, jokingly reminding the troops to "take time to clean your muskets."
Lt. Col. Debra Shoemaker, a native of Colbert's hometown of Charleston, South Carolina, said the show was a "nice break" from the monotony of service in Iraq.
USO Senior Vice President John Hanson said the shows are an important diversion for the troops.
Colbert's USO tour is unusual because it's the first time it has been a show taped in a combat zone has been edited and aired so quickly. The Sunday show will be televised on the Comedy Central network .
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/07/colbert.iraq/index.html
Not only does he go over and visit them, he also does it in that inevitable Colbert style - and also allows both Obama and McCain to deliver some killer lines while doing so.
"Take time to clean your muskets......."
Looks like this series of shows will be a must see if one wants or needs a smile.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
10 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
6/8/2009 5:17:44 AM
These folks don't expect or look for help outside the family unit for the more part. This is whats at the root of many die hard GOP rank and file in the more rural areas of our nation and this" independence" and self reliance still runs very deep to this day.
I hope my story offers some perspective ~ of "why" we are the way we are.
I've not been there, but my guess Canada is more European, perhaps a little more "civilized" yet I know the nation was forged out of the wilderness as well.
Perhaps the Canadians more use to the yoke of government.
Some good input Dance, and I can see that type of "DNA" in many American's personal stories.
One of the more interesting examples of this was the incredible story of the assault across the Waal river during the battle of Arnhem. Faced with a huge challenge of trying to capture a bridge under difficult circumstances, American soldiers made a quick decision that stunned their British counterparts.
They decided to attempt a river crossing, in small canvas and plywood boats they'd never even seen or used before, across a four hundred yard river ...and against a heavily defended shoreline in broad daylight . The boats arrived literally minutes before zero hour, and many had no paddles ....so men used their rifle butts to row.
No one in their right mind would have attempted such a thing.....
In summary, “This crossing was made in broad daylight using British canvas assault boats. Each wave cost numerous casualties in both infantry and engineers, due to point blank enemy fire of small arms and automatic weapons. The crossing was highly successful; the Nijmegen highway and railroad bridges were secured intact” (307th).
http://www.usaaftroopcarrier.com/Holland/H-Waal%20River%20Crossing.htm
There are many other stories from WW2 that show the same type of mentality, among them Patton and his history of success.
It's not the case of being "more civilized" that makes the difference, for that would imply that Americans are less civilized - and that's not the case.
Using Canada as an example for comparison, which is quite valid, as we share many things in common, we took a different path. We gained our independence with pens, and not muskets. We combined two cultures (initially) into our national one, those of the French and British.
If one is trying to live together, faced with such cultural definitions and differences, one sees oneself less as an "individual" and more as a group member.
We also had the impact of extreme winters to deal with, where "being an individual" could kill a man. The only way for survival, in such times, was to work together as one.
Almost all of our country was in that situation, climate wise, as opposed to a fraction of your country. At that time period, the areas suitable for farming were quite limited. In the USA, this was far less the case. One could move west, or south, and find some good areas that an individual could live on raising cattle or crops - at least enough for a family. One could do that all year long, as well.
That impact of weather on us is a bit like the cultural impact of the polders on the Dutch, and the way they work collectively. Since they needed to keep such areas free of water, and drained, they had to work together. One man, breaking that concept, could flood the entire region with his actions.
Polder Model
A third explanation refers to a unique aspect of the Netherlands, largely consisting of polders, land regained from the sea, which requires constant pumping and maintenance of the dykes. So ever since the Middle Ages, when this was started, different societies living in the same polder were forced to cooperate because without unanimous agreement on shared responsibility for maintenance of the dikes and pumping stations, the polders would have flooded and everyone would have suffered. Crucially, even when different cities in the same polder were at war, they still had to cooperate in this respect. This supposedly taught the Dutch to set aside differences for a greater purpose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model
Add to that the history of firearms, and especially handguns, and you get another driving factor on this "individual" orientation in the USA. One literally has the power of life and death in one's hands, and most times a reasonably free use of that power (at least compared to other Western nations).
It's a cultural stereotype based in history, and the differing paths we've taken.
Look at all the great iconic American films, and you will essentially see one repeating pattern. It's one man standing up against something, most times alone. From High Noon, Mr Smith Goes to Washington, Twelve Angry Men, Scarface and Die Hard..... it's the same basic idea of the individual over all.
Americans CAN work together, and they have many times, to improve their lot in life. The very creation of your country was indeed such an effort, when you threw off the yoke of" British oppression". Ironically, Americans were paying far less taxes than British citizens were at the time, and had a far better potential for improving their life with more space and opportunity.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
226 (
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guns at home
Posted:
5/31/2009 7:58:52 AM
Firearms also save countless lives each year. Millions of people use them without incident. Why punish millions because of a few?
I'm not saying punish anyone - just regulate and train gun owners. I think the laws we have here work well, and we can see the results easily....although there is a cultural difference at play as well. The better trained and educated a firearm owner is, the better for all society.
Using a firearm as a source of protection should be the LAST on a very long list of options.
I've never said a word about banning guns, even handguns. I'd be against those things as well.
Americans will have to find their own way here, as it depends heavily on American culture, politics, and history. Those things can not, and must not, be overlooked in such a discussion.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
221 (
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guns at home
Posted:
5/29/2009 7:12:37 AM
And what occurs when even a fully trained and licensed individual is armed with a weapon, and faced with a quick moving situation that they do not totally understand ?
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A police officer was shot to death by another officer as he was chasing a man he saw breaking into his car in New York's East Harlem neighborhood, authorities said.
New York Police Department Officer Omar Edwards, 25, was shot twice about 10:30 p.m. Thursday just blocks from the precinct where he had finished his shift. He was pronounced dead less than an hour later at Harlem Hospital.
Edwards, in plainclothes, had just left the Housing Bureau Station House on East 124th St., said Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly. As Edwards approached his car, he saw a man rummaging through it.
"We believe that at this point, Officer Edwards, with his gun drawn, chased the individual north to 125th Street and east toward First Avenue," Kelly said at a news conference in New York early Friday at Harlem Hospital.
Edwards was not wearing a bulletproof vest and did not fire a shot, Kelly said.
Plainclothes officers patrolling the neighborhood in an unmarked vehicle saw the chase and went after Edwards and the suspect.
"One of the officers, after exiting the vehicle, fired six times from a 9 mm Glock," Kelly said.
Edwards was shot in the chest and arm. It was not clear whether any of the officers had identified themselves as law enforcement.
The officer who fired the shots has four-and-a-half years' experience, authorities said. The shooting is under investigation, Kelly said.
A man was later arrested on suspicion of breaking into Edwards' car.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/29/ny.officer.killed/index.html
MIDLAND — Midland County sheriff’s deputies were investigating the accidental shooting death of a 48-year-old Midland man.
Michael W. Laursen was alone at the outdoor range of the Midland Sportsman’s Club in Larkin Township when he slipped and fell to the ground, and the handgun he was carrying fired, fatally wounding him, deputies said.
Laursen, a financial adviser for Hantz Financial Services, 2621 W. Wackerly in Midland, was carrying a .454-caliber Freedom Arms Model 83 Casull revolver when he fell. He also had two other handguns with him, said Sheriff Jerry Nielsen.
The Hays County Commissioners court may weigh in on a gun ordinance instituted after a 7 year-old-boy was accidentally shot and killed.
The commissioners will consider whether to ban shooting on lots smaller than two acres.
A citizens committee has been working on a recommendation since last June, when 7-year-old Daniel Galicia was killed in an accidental shooting.
He was jumping on a trampoline with other children when he was hit in the neck with a stray bullet.
The boy’s neighbor, Jose Espitia, was target shooting on his property.
http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=10120
A firearm, even in trained hands, can quickly become a lethal weapon if one makes the slightest error while handling it.
In most places in the world, at least in developed countries, no one dies because their car got broken into to. That's what insurance is for, and it's cost is far less than a human life ever will be worth.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
2 (
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Power of USA vs. Well-Being of its citizens
Posted:
5/29/2009 6:59:50 AM
An interesting question....
Perhaps one of the reasons is a cultural filter that's inherent in the USA, and far less so in other countries. Americans are more typical in seeing themselves as individuals, as opposed to part of a collective group, when it comes to social and economic issues. There's a seemingly general mistrust of government, and it's involvement in anything that touches the individual - even when those things may promise benefits to many.
That can be seen quite clearly, and inarguably, with two good examples : the lack of national health insurance and the lack of ANY law regarding vacation time as being mandatory.
It is astonishing that the U.S. is the only developed country that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation or holidays. In the EU countries, workers are entitled to at least four weeks’ annual leave each year, with additional time for national holidays. In France and Finland, thirty days is the minimum standard. Other counties including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan also provide guaranteed paid leave for their workers.
According to a recent study entitled “No-Vacation Nation” by the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, DC, Americans get an average of 15 total paid days off per year, comprised of nine vacation days and six holidays. This falls well below the required standard in the nineteen other countries studied.
http://www.savingadvice.com/blog/2007/05/17/101440_did-you-know-you-have-no-legal-rights-to-your-vacation.html
One has the right to pursue happiness, while having no legal right to have any free time to do it.
There is a large enough body of Americans that still seem to believe that ANY move towards a collective benefit is a de facto "socialist" concept, and we've seen many of those step forward in during various discussions we've had here concerning Obama.
One also has to add to this mix the longterm historical implications of "corporate personhood" and the power this brings to corporations do do as they see fit to maximize profit. This often means that the individual suffers as a result.
This concept even is extended to the historic political struggle between states rights versus federal ones, which is perhaps a regional based reflection of this same individual filter in action on a slightly larger scale.
Montreal_Guy
Joined:
3/8/2004
Msg:
217 (
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guns at home
Posted:
5/18/2009 3:02:09 PM
* Switzerland has one of the lowest murder rates in the world, and it requires all able-bodied males between the ages of 20 and 50 to have a military-issued automatic weapon, ammunition and other equipment in their dwellings.
* Israel, which has an extremely low crime rate but is vulnerable to enemies including terrorists, depends on the defensive value of widespread civilian gun possession.
* Denmark and Finland also have high rates of gun ownership and low crime rates.
Switzerland also requires said individuals to be highly trained in the use of such weapons, as military personnel, and they are (obviously) registered by the government.
Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel or the SIG 510 rifle and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place. The issuing of ammunition was however abolished after a family shooting, in which the victim was a former ski champion.
A "shooting society" somewhere in Switzerland; people come to such ranges to complete mandatory training with service arms, or to shoot for sport and competition.
When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Switzerland: Opponents of gun control often use Switzerland as evidence that access to guns is not linked to crime or violence. They argue that since virtually all adult males are members of the army and have military weapons, there is nearly universal access to deadly weapons yet few gun-related problems in Switzerland. However, Swiss criminologist Martin Killias, of the Université de Lausanne, argues that the rate of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada (27.2%). There is strict screening of army officers and ammunition is stored in sealed boxes and inspected regularly. Despite these controls, Switzerland has rates of gun suicide second only to the US among the countries Killias surveyed and a gun murder rate comparable to Canada's. Although firearms regulations in Switzerland is fragmented and controlled at the regional level, wide ranging reforms are being undertaken to establish national standards.
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html
Since those ammo packs are sealed, they are of little to no use as personal protection. These trained men and women are not allowed to have an automatic weapon after they leave the service, even with good service records.
A rather high standard of living reduces any crime rate to a fraction of other countries, a rather unique situation.
Israel ?
Although the NRA never mentions THAT side of it, that country (even under it's terrorist threat) has some REMARKABLY tough gun ownership laws.
In answer to your queries about gun laws in Israel: [bold]The gun control laws in Israel are draconian. [/bold]
You must have a "valid reason" to keep a gun at home. Sadly in the West Bank our cousins (the Arabs) give that reason. All of Israel law is a combination of Ottoman Empire, British occupation, and Israeli passed laws, also the radical leftist Supreme Court which has empowered itself to strike down laws it does not agree with and to generate law by judicial declaration. We do not have a constitution for the state of Israel.
These rules may change as the firearms regulation is moving to the police ministry from the ministry of interior. By law they are already empowered but interior still has the funding so police will not take over.
[bold]Competitive shooters must now lock up weapons at the club vault.[/bold]
[bold]You used to be able to own two long guns for hunting but insurance is unavailable so no new long gun permits. However, current holders can still keep these guns.[/bold]
[bold]Here are basics on handguns: Three years of citizenship, doctor's letter, one day of class, and shooting exam required, you must have what is deemed a "valid reason" to get this permit.
Valid reasons for handgun permit include: three years with police reserve unit, military officer over captain, or residence in "higher risk" area like the West Bank.
http://www.survivalblog.com/2006/07/david_in_israel_re_on_gun_laws.html
Now, although the writer does seem to have a rather interesting view of the situation, his summary of the gun laws there do indicate a strong CONTROL of weapons - in a land far more dangerous than anywhere in the USA.
Denmark ?
In very condensed form, here are the danish gun laws, with a bias to the competion side of things.
Licence: Either on a hunting permit or as member of a rifle club. Hunters are dealt with by the police, comp shooters by SKV, their own registering body (plus police approval.)
Limits: semiautomatic hunting rifles has to be limited to two shots, no semi rifles allowed in competition.
Under 25 rifles or under 10 pistols: Gun cabinet of approved type, over 25/10 active alarm system required.
Ammo/calibers: (rifle) up to but excluding 20 mm. 1000 cartridges long range, i.e. rifle; 5000 carts short range, i.e. pistol. Pistols and revolvers are limited to .38 cal.
Pistol permits are only given when 2 years of shooting in a club has been succesfully (i.e. without any 'episodes') completed, A certain number of training sessions with small caliber as well as large caliber (.32 and up) required.
Reloading requires a licence. At the moment new reloading permits are not issued due to certain mistakes by the authorities.
Moderators/"silencers" are strictly forbidden. Muzzle brakes allowed.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=49&t=334479
Finland ?
Firearms can only be obtained with an acquisition license, which can be applied for at the local police for a fee. A separate license is required for each individual firearm. With the primary licensee's consent, parallel licenses to his firearms can be granted to other persons. According to law, the firearms must be stored in a locked space or otherwise locked, or with vital parts removed and separated. Even then the weapon or any of its separated parts must not be easily stolen. If an especially dangerous firearm or more than 5 pistols, revolvers or self-loading rifles or other-type firearms are being stored, they must be stored in a certified gun safe or in a secure space inspected and approved by the local police authority.
They may be carried only when they are transported from their place of storage to the place of use (shooting range, hunting area or such). Even then they must be unloaded and concealed or kept in carrying pouches. Aside from law enforcement agents and military personnel, only security guards with closely defined working conditions, special training and a permit are allowed to carry a loaded gun in public places. The ownership of air-rifles is not regulated but carrying or firing them in public places is not permitted. A crossbow is paralleled to an air rifle in legal matters.
To obtain a firearms license, an individual must declare a valid reason to own a gun. Acceptable reasons include hunting, sports or hobby shooting, profession related, show or promotion or exhibition, collection or museum, souvenir, and signalling. It is worth noticing that self- or home defence are not considered valid reasons. The applicant must provide evidence supporting the acquisition license application to prove that he or she is actually using firearms for the stated purpose(s). Such proof may consist of written declarations from other license holders as referees, shooting diaries or certificates from a shooting club.[5]
The applicant is also subjected to an extensive background check from police accessible databases and even citations for speeding or DUI can be grounds of not granting the license.
Collectors can have special licenses for firearms otherwise not permitted (e.g. pocket guns or select fire weapons). These are usually issued based on the collector's previous record of gun ownership, but ultimately the issuing of licenses is at the local police's discretion.
Conversely, a license for a pistol or a rifle is relatively easy to obtain, although the police usually require that the first gun is suitable for a beginner (usually a gun chambered in .22LR or single shot shotgun).
Possession of destructive devices such as automatic weapons, rocket and grenade launchers, breech loading cannons, artillery rockets, or missile systems is generally not permitted. The Finnish Ministry of the Interior has discretion to license such devices to collectors, for motion picture production or exhibition use.
The firearms certificate may be cancelled if a person has committed any crimes (in addition to violent crimes, simple theft and traffic offences are also considered) or has broken certificate rules. Physical and mental problems or reckless behavior are solid grounds for canceling the certificate.
Possessing a firearm without a license is a punishable offence. Unlicensed firearms may be confiscated by the police without punishment under a gun amnesty law, provided this happens under the individual's own initiative. Firearms surrendered in this manner are auctioned to the public or destroyed.
Sound suppressors, a firearm accessory strictly regulated in many other jurisdictions, are also available in Finland. Their use is not regulated. Their use can be considered to reduce the noise pollution that firearms otherwise produce. Noise pollution is to some extent a problem, since although most ranges are located in relatively remote locations, many ranges may be closed down if the noise becomes a problem for the nearest inhabitants. Suppressors also reduced the risk of hearing damage while shooting. Silencers are not a major topic in Finnish gun control debates as they are almost never used in crimes.
Private ownership of tear gas or pepper spray is licensed for the purposes of personal protection, collection, training, or education. These are not valid reasons to get a licence for a private person, however, but apply only to security companies. There are some circumstances where a private person can obtain a license for carrying an incapacitating agent, such as when obtaining a restraining order against an aggressive person.
Any usual need for professional use of guns should be covered with incapacitating agents, but for high risk facilities such as nuclear plants, security guards may get a firearm license.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland
See a pattern ?
Like in my country, guns are considered primarily as weapons for target shooting, hunting, or collecting - not self defense.
All three of those countries have rather high standards of living, as compared to the USA. The gap between rich and poor is smaller, and the numbers of poor are as well. The exception being perhaps Israel , if one includes places like the West Bank, which skew the numbers, and are not really applicable to the general discussion at hand.
All countries mentioned ensure that people have gun training, that guns are registered, and that people are first examined for any potential problems that might mean they should not be armed.
In all three countries, crime rates are far lower than the armed USA's numbers. So are homicide rates, if one carefully looks at Israel and removes terrorist victims from any counts.
In all three countries, "dictators and tyrants" are held at bay with this thing called voting.
So registered guns in the hands of properly vetted and trained people are no great danger, as we can see over and over again. My country has tough regulations, but I would have no problem getting a weapon were I to apply - even a handgun.
I choose not to, because I have no need for one.
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