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 Author Thread: It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 225 (view)
 
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted: 10/13/2009 10:11:56 PM
ScorpioMover:

Have you ever considered making a long, rambling post? I'm just thinking that if you want to never make a point to the audience here, you could make such huge posts that most people won't want to invest the immediately obvious large time investment to read it.

If you do, try to go off on a tangent completely unrelated to the OP, like deciphering Hebrew in a discussion of faith in science.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 138 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:46:26 PM
Yo, Paul K:

Do you think that all protestors are working in the wrong?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
 
who's your master?
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:42:18 PM
I don't think anyone has a better appraisal of the system than I do. Therefore I call my master Terry Gilliam. There is nobody who speaks so clearly and universally for me other than Terry. I defer to Terry Gilliam's definition of existence, especially with 12 Monkeys or Brazil.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 79 (view)
 
Who Is the Father of All Sciences ?
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:02:19 PM
Descartes had testes. This is clear proof that a man was responsible for all current scientific knowledge.

Don't read my previous posts, ok?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 185 (view)
 
Believe!
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:55:59 PM
Milghi: I appreciate your honest question.


Universal faith-based beliefs are assumptions of individuals which cannot be falsified/proved by facts.


In response to your OP, the existence of a guiding force can be proven to not having been shown. There is no evidence of the existence of what you call this director.


In other words, if existence of an object is neither proved nor disproved, it becomes universal faith, for example, existence of a ‘God’. No one can prove or disprove existence of God. It is beyond the fact or logical reason.


Indeed. It is unprovable.

I may be missing your point. Definition is so necessary.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 137 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:41:50 PM
cubans, liberals, ne'er-do-wells...

Do you think there is any validation of the populace to group together in common opposition to a ruling force?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 82 (view)
 
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:27:30 PM
I'll get those darned windmills, I tell you. They spew so much wind, yet so little force.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 180 (view)
 
Believe!
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:16:52 PM
Don't think so, gorgeous. Neil Peart wrote it. He's canadian.

Milghi: I will believe anything you can prove to me. Would you recommend to your children to believe things without substantiation?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 178 (view)
 
Believe!
Posted: 10/10/2009 9:49:59 PM
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance:
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive.
The stars aren't aligned, or the gods are malign.
Blame is better to give than receive.

(Chorus)
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will.

There are those who think that they've been dealt a losing hand:
The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in lotus land.

All pre-ordained; a prisoner in chains, a victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face, you can pray for a place in heaven's unearthly estate.

(Chorus)
(awesome Alex Lifeson/Geddy Lee/Neil Peart instrumental interlude)

Each of us a cell of awareness - imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

(Chorus)

Rush, Permanent Waves, Freewill.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 136 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/10/2009 9:21:13 PM

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the protestors that were herded around, and some of which were arrested in the Seattle riots would have been SHOT in any other totalitarian country. They don't have protests........ do you know why? Because the would-be protestors KNOW that they would get shot, so they don't bother........


This is your argument AGAINST the right to protest?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 161 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:46:42 PM

Tune in late nights on weekends. You would be amazed by what's explored. I agree that Darwin's ideas are not directly responsible for the actions of others; its the ongoing deification of Darwin that's the biggest problem--along with the continuous application of what just might not be true in the social sciences. To have Darwinism shape social science is deadly, especially in the form of direct manipulation of man's soul, quality of life and purpose as they appear in social groups.


Seems we agree. Using an aspect of real science as a justification of eugenics is deadly.


Wait until one craps on your car and then see if you do not become prejudiced.


One reason I don't own a car. Animals should not be expected to deal with our need for convenience.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 30 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:20:05 PM

Looking at this issue and blaming democratic governments is like treating cancer with band-aids. There are many people who see the recreational use of mind altering substances as wrong and a subset of these people feel it is important to force that view on others. The democratic process empowers them to do just that. Since their ideals are the root cause, why not put your effort into changing the cause instead of whining about the symptoms?


Good point. I dont' think I'm whining, but you're right. I am addressing the misconception of those people that the use of cannabis is such an aggregious crime. I am arguing that the prohibition of cannabis use, and the resultant icarceration of Canadians is unwarranted as was the prohibition of women voting. Is it good that that argument was won for the protagonists?


These people have arguments that need to be addressed to them, not around them, if you want the issue resolved. The usual political protocols apply in the form of conciliation and understanding instead of confrontation. Confrontation will only harden their resolve.


You live in a society that has the ability to disagree with current laws, right? Should women shut up?


Personally, I have no use for such things and judge those that use them negatively for their choice


My well spoken friend: I don't care.


but philosophically, I am against criminalization except in situations that put others at risk or impose on their freedoms and property. How would you address my point of view?


Legalize! Quit putting people in foreign jails when it makes no sense in the terms of justice. Quit capitulating to our southern neighbours for their shortages of understanding. Quit allowing another country to jail our citizens for an act that is criminal only in their country!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 80 (view)
 
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:44:05 PM
Don't give up. I have actually seen people come to the side of empirical evidence. It is hard to invest one's emotions in science, but the payoff is great. Consider aremeself: it's only a matter of time. Aremeself is too capable of thought to lose this idea.

Keep posting.

Edit: It takes a nation of millions to hold us back.

Public Enemy
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 78 (view)
 
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:21:59 PM

Faith is belief with evidence presented yet unseen


Evidence presented yet unseen is not evidence, n'est-ce pas, you gorgeous debater?

Evidence presented yet unseen could promulgate belief in the FSM, no? Nobody has seen the FSM but there exists quite a bit of faith for it.


"Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing." - Bobby Henderson, http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

The OP's question is whether faith ever exists as a recognizable source of knowledge. Without faith there is no FSM. Without faith there is no spiritual guide of the universe. Without faith one can not dispute science, n'est-ce pas?

Believe in gods or spirits all you want. Science is incapable of promulgating untruths.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 76 (view)
 
It takes faith to believe in science - I'd say no.
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:24:06 PM
Faith is belief without evidence. Science is the process of making sure the only things you say have evidence. Faith is belief without evidence.

Scientists once said that, given current information, the Earth is only millions of years old. They were wrong. They then got more information, like telescopes and the understanding of quantum physics which allowed them to understand red-shift and the necessary times that distant objects would have needed to be where they are.

Then scientists said "given our updated info, the universe is 15 billion years old." They were still wrong. The thing is they never said they have proof. They never said they were indisputably right. They kept saying "as far as we know" X. As soon as one says one knows something that one can't prove, one ceases to be a scientist. Science is the proclamation of what one really knows. If one doesn't know, but has a reasonable hypothesis, and declares this reasonable hypothesis as such, one is a scientist. When scientists can't prove that humans evolved but say that all indicators point to that hypothesis, that is science.

Science can't be wrong, by definition. Science can't involve faith. Involving faith is removing one's argument from science.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 158 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 10/10/2009 5:11:22 PM
Darwin correctly used the words 'race' and 'subspecies.' Frog is correct in description of taxonomy: it is a system of divisions and no nastiness can be inferred. Social Darwinism is another thing and Darwin is not responsible for it. Roccocogirl, you are right that the idea of 'survival of the fittest' was tragically misapplied but I and you are individuals in subspecies. I am of my Scottish lineage, which is not genetically similar to Czechs as it is to Englanders. Moffit's wild goose, Branta Canadensis moffiti is smaller in size and has a longer migration route than the sedentary Canada Goose Branta Canadensis canadensis which is the largest of wild geese and has a very small geographic range. Nobody here is prejudiced toward either goose. Frog stayed on topic. You need to define terms for yourself.

As far as anyone getting a room: holy cow, like flirting on this site is a problem, like there's usually any progress being made. Do it here, I wanna watch.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 118 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/4/2009 3:04:11 AM

And can someone tell me why the symbol for anarchism is ALWAYS drwan the same way???


Good question.

Because you are confusing anarchy with chaos. Anarchy is "an-" (lack of) "archy" (person in charge), like monarchy is "mon" (one) "archy" (person in charge). Chaos is a lack of system. If there were no time for protestors to gather then that would be an example of chaos. If they simply felt they should not let it be ruled by any external governance, then that is anarchy. They can still get together and have a symbol, but needn't have the time or place dictated to them.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 62 (view)
 
Who Is the Father of All Sciences ?
Posted: 10/4/2009 2:55:12 AM
Whatever y'all do, don't read through the thread.

Msg 12 by vichycycl:


The father of science was a woman. From here on I'll call her the mother of science...
The mother of science was the first mother to go out and check if what she thought was the sound of a bear approaching her camp was accompanied by the smell of a bear approaching her camp, where her babies were sleeping. She used redundant sources to confirm a hypothesis. She would have been thrilled to discover she was wrong.


Dad's are important but they just don't have that vested interest. Science is the process of knowing for sure what is going on. Mothers check that out more than dads.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 116 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/3/2009 11:08:41 PM
Anyway it's Saturday night and lots of motorists have seriously ignored the law in the past and treatened my safety. So I'm gonna hop on my fixed gear bicycle and ride my lane and take bath the streets in the name of order. I won't cause the violence, I just want all you motorists to know you better get out of my way because I am going to enforce the law.

All you tree hugging hippies had better look out.

BANSAI!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 11 (view)
 
Do Dreams Die?
Posted: 10/3/2009 10:59:07 PM
No, you're wrong! I am counting on the nymphs in other peoples' dreams to come pleasure me! Quit ruining my fun!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 115 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/3/2009 10:51:57 PM
With respect to the OP:

I am here for useful communication. I don't need to win anything. I will not just keep posting when it's not going anywhere because of question dodgers.

The poster who keeps saying the cops are the innocent and the protestors are always violent has demonstrated an inability to follow the evidence presented in this thread. When the evidence is shown of an instance where the cops are the instigators, and ADMIT IT - this poster suggests they should be allowed to cross the line since other protestors have at other protests. When the poster is confronted with evidence from several of us that the cops were the instigators this poster responds that cops are never the instigators.

This poster says the protestors turn violent in response to a video of the cops being violent to a group of fewer than 20 protestors asking for peace at Montebello.

I think the point has been strongly made, OP. There is a function of protest and some people need their eyes opened.


Look at the video man!


It would seem you're wasting your breath.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 96 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 10/3/2009 12:52:43 AM

I don't think the police are who I would be thinking planted the perps.


What if they admit to it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow&feature=related

They admit they do it even when the protestors gather in designated areas, as these at Montebello did. - Susan Bonner, CBC News, Ottawa.

The protestors are the dozen people led by the guy in the suit. They keep asking for the cop posing as a protestor to "put the rock down." Eventually the cop with the rock starts shoving protestors. The chief of the police force admits that it was cops undercover who were doing the shoving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfzUOx53Rg

Funny how this can have been ignored this many times?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 22 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 10/2/2009 2:20:27 AM
Ahoy: I’m not saying Smith & Wesson is doing something illegal. I was making an analogy for fossjackson who suggested that since the seeds are only used to do something else that is illegal then it’s just as illegal to sell the seeds. Since as you say one can buy a handgun to do things that are not illegal then Smith & wesson should not be charged with a crime any more than Marc Emery should.

How would I address someone who has no use for recreational drugs but negatively judges people who use them but does not feel they should be criminalized? I’d say, “how ya’ doin’?’ I don’t own a car, I go camping in the rockies by bicycle, and I judge people negatively who use cars when not needed, but don’t think they should be criminalized.

The only reason criminals use guns to commit crimes to pay for their drugs is because they’re illegal. That fact a) obviously doesn’t keep the drugs out of society, b)costs taxpayers in law enforcement and c) makes criminal organizations rich.

Driving drunk is a crime. It kills. Neithere alcohol sales nor driving is a crime.

Yes I’m saying that Canada should not cooperate with the US on this.

You said that kabiosile’s comment that marijuana is completely harmless is exxageration. Could you please tell me how it isn’t? Remember, you don’t have to smoke it, and you don’t have to make it illegal. Also you don’t have to overuse it, which can lead to brain damage, but you can die drinking too much water too.

I’m not going to address the ‘terrorists coming through Canada’ part. Start your own thread. Keep in mind Canada’s soldiers are dying in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban, and the Taliban make money selling heroin, another drug that costs 1000s more than it should only because it’s illegal.

Kabiosile: what a great post. I agree with you on all your points. It is a crying shame it is not used, as it once was, for textiles and rope. Also the reason is pure politics. Alcohol is a much worse drug and is regulated and taxed.

Eeeo: as a Scot, I too am fuious about the Lockerbie bomber.

Ralph and Wiyan: not to ignore you, I just don’t disagree with anything you say.

Thanks for posting all.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 29 (view)
 
PhD Dating and dating PhD's
Posted: 9/30/2009 10:05:29 PM
Have you ever seen The Royal Tenenbaums? Gene Hackman and Angelica Huston have three children that are geniuses. One is Gwyneth Paltrow (yum) and the other two are Luke and Owen Wilson. They are clearly no good at raising children. The children are really good at being successful but not at life. In fact no character is. However because the kids are great at some stuff Angelica Huston's character writes a book called Raising Genius.

Everybody fails famously. All the failures are due to hubris. Sounds a lot like the posturing on this site, doesn't it?

Krebby: if you keep being so self-effacing, and get a sex change, I may fall in love with you. I wish I could argue with you. I wish it were true that education makes the difference. My world would make more sense, but you're right: what makes one click with another is not education. It's something else, isn't it? I sure wish it were quantifiable.

I haven't made anyone feel awkward, have I?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 56 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:43:28 PM
Paul K,

Hi. I'm not trying to 'win.' I think the purpose of a discussion forum is to disseminate useful information. I want to make people aware of injustices that exist. If you can prove to me that the injustice doesn't exist I will thank you.

You say "the 60's are over, man. Bummer, dude." To me that sounded pedantic. I agree it has an element of humour to it, but it sounded like you were trying to ridicule and be dismissive of anyone who agrees with the right to protest.

Surely you don't think that all protests are wrong, do you? There are injustices and there are instances where some powerful organizations should be exposed for their acts that hurt humanity, and there are instances where zealous cops go too far just as there are instances where protestors, and hockey fans, and soccer hooligans go too far, right?

Anybody who damages property of the innocent should have to pay for the damage. I agree with that. If you looked at the thread to which I referred you you would have seen I said that masses of hyped-up people can be awfully stupid. I don't condone any violence or property damage, no matter the cause. but that's not the subject of the OP here, is it?

Just as no protestor should get away with property damage so no cop should get away with undue exertion of force. Would you agree?

If you had watched the video of the incident of the Surete du Quebec, you would have seen the undercover cop was doing a lot more than 'holding a rock.' You also would have seen that the protestors were not damaging any property.

So do you think cops should have the right to stop citizens from gathering as a group to speak out at all times?

I think you don't. I think you're sane. I just want to communicate, in the context of the OP, that protestors are often misaligned. You seem to be proving my point.

The Chief of Securite Du Quebec admitted that that officer had overstepped his authority. You seem to be saying that thinking so is 'bleeding-heart-hippie BS.'

Is protesting always wrong? Is there anybody in Honduras right now who you think should have the right to protest?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 39 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:03:32 AM
Paul K,

Here's the homework:

http://charliemarks.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/cops-policing-protests-with-rocks/.

“Of course we wish it hadn’t happened,” Securite du Quebec Insp. Marcel Savard said, as he explained why one of three undercover SQ officers was caught on video holding a rock while infiltrating a group of protesters.

That's just one example.

P.S. I originally brought this up here in current events.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8110102.aspx
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 88 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 9/29/2009 10:57:24 PM

There are many creationists out there... it is possible to disagree with his beliefs and his agenda without making assumptions and attempting to mock him. His beliefs don't necessarily stem from his childhood; I don't understand the need to tie this in (although it smacks of envy.)


I disagree with his beliefs. That's one thing. I also find his method of berating people in the street with it to be petty and annoying. That's a separate thing. I think the reason he does his "Way of the Master" thing the annoying way he does is because he thinks he has a special right to get people to listen to him, because of his past fame.

Have you seen his approach? Have you seen his bit on the "crocaduck?" He's an ass, regardless of his spiritual beliefs.

I envy director Terry Gilliam, and Dr. Richard Dawkins, and radio host Jian Ghomeshi. They are intelligent successful people.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/29/2009 8:32:47 PM

if you break the law you get punished


Jesus incited rebellion in occupied Israel. Glad he was punished?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/29/2009 8:29:55 PM
rossjackson:

Should the Smith & Wesson company be jailed for selling handguns to the public (not cops)? What do you use handguns for besides shooting people? There are a lot of reasons to buy hemp seeds beside growing for sale to recreational use. Many people in the US have exemptions to consume marijuana. It is a medicine, remember. It is also a way better way to make paper than using trees - you get 4 times the fibre. It is also a high protein food, etc.

Further it is not illegal in this country to sell pot seeds. A foreign police force was allowed into our country to pursue their drug war.

Funcuz: this is political science and the philosophy of rights across borders and the philosophy of freedoms of consumers of plant medicine. Where should I have put it, if not here?

Halftime:


I actually have mixed feelings about this[...]the US drug laws are wildly disproportionate to the crime. So I think we should refuse to extradite for this sort of thing.


Good point. If your neighbour nation made HPV vaccinations illegal because they think young girls should just be celibate to avoid cervical cancer, you wouldn't extradite someone who gave out the vaccine to citizens from that country that came to yours for it. The war on pot is as ridiculous.

I appreciate the reference to Tommy Chong too. I didn't know they threatened his family.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 4 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/29/2009 2:06:07 AM
Marc Emery, speaking in front of the BC courthouse before surrendering:

"There is no crime here. The politicians who support this extradition are supporters of organized crime. We are making criminals with laws like this," said Emery.

Canada has no vision regarding justice. We bow to the will of the US. The US wants to serve its pharmaceutical companies. We let the US put our citizens in jail to facilitate this.

Are you about to argue that this sounds like conspiracy theory? Tell me, how much does it cost per dose for the synthetic versions of THC, named "Marinol" (Solvay Pharmaceuticals) and "Norminol" (Norwegian Petroleum Directorate)?

It costs about fifty Canadian dollars per dose, compared to about three cents per dose of the plant. Who has an interest in keeping it illegal?

The fact that it is illegal does not reduce its use, obviously. It only makes people who are willing to use guns rich.

Charging someone for providing seeds that grow weed is like charging Smith & Wesson when someone gets shot.

Canada doesn't even think about this. We just bow to our southern boss.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
 
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:55:06 PM
Marc Emery is known as the "Prince of Pot." He was the publisher of the best marijuana magazine: Cannabis Culture He was the leader of the BC Marijauna party. He was the owner of the BC Marijuana Party Bookstore in Vancouver.

His magazine, Cannabis Culture (CC) was not anything like High Times. CC published knowledgeable articles on the growing of cannabis, scientific research into its harms and the hype about its harms, its worldwide use and history, the war on drugs and the horror inherent therein, and people involved in the fight against this prohibition.

At the beginning of each magazine Marc published a catalogue of seeds. You could order seeds of all kinds of cannabis. It had a lot of pictures and write-ups of the weed it would grow. I got a pack of 20 seeds of Northern Lights #5 crossed with an Afghan Kush. I grew many pounds of this and gave it away to my friends, including a neighbour in my apartment block who has a legal exemption to consume cannabis. In other words I was a compassionate supplier of a medicine that has a lot of controversy while it serves patients of polio.

Marc Emery was charged by the DEA with supplying seeds to US citizens. He made a plea deal for 5 years in US jail to avoid a trial that could have gotten him decades of incarceration. He will be out in under 5 years, as long as he lives through it.

He sold seeds to US citizens. Seeds do not have any drug in them.

Our (Canadian) justice minister did not bargain for his freedom. Our government regularly allows the US DEA - a foreign police force - into our country to sting and extradite our citizens.

Is Canada the most spineless government you've ever seen?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Tell us about a book which made a big impact on your life.
Posted: 9/28/2009 2:30:06 AM
A prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving made me question all the little problems I thought I had. It made me think that for every gripe I have there is someone who works through much greater problems.

100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez changed my appreciation of more things than I know still and I read it 10 years ago. You thought YOUR family was dysfunctional? Hah!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 31 (view)
 
Have I fallen for a lesbian??!!
Posted: 9/28/2009 2:11:31 AM
Captain2slow hasn't responded for a reason.

This is not a serious thread.

I'm so depressed and I used a shmibble to get over it. Now the shmibble won't talk to me. What's up?

If it is, what has this woman's sexuality to do with your own depression?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 338 (view)
 
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:05:44 AM
I saw the comparison. I showed the obvious differences between non-living and living systems, and the fault in the analogy.


<div class="quote">Find something constructive to say.

It is not analogical to compare machines with organisms in this regard. So you needn't worry about others having egg on their face.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
 
World First - Vaccine helps prevent HIV infection
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:59:37 AM
Hi monalee, I can't tell if you're responding to me, so I'll just respond.



hi.. ummm vaccines are not a reaction to fear??


I'm sure it is fear of infection that gets people to get vaccines. It's the only reason I would get a vaccine.



.... why is it that my teen has not been injected with vaccines, could it be that I did not buy into the fear based propoganda, could be..


My guess is that it would be difficult for anyone to inject your teen with anything. I assume your teen can fight off weirdos with needles.



why is she alive, according to mainstream medicine at 17 without any meds in her she should be dead or at least sick with..... instead her healthy immune system works for her..


According to mainstream medicine there would be an increased risk of her contracting a virus if she were not immunized by vaccine. That doesn't change my assertion that no vaccine will select for knowledgeable people. Knowing not to engage in unsafe sex does not affect the efficacy of a vaccine. Knowledge does, as I said, but it is difficult to disseminate this knowledge across a world so full of myths like "having sex with a virgin cures AIDS (popular myth in some cultures, according to researchers I heard interviewed on CBC recently).



guess all that organic food, pure air and water and prayer is working....


I can readily agree with the first two.



health is not an accident and there are enough people on the planet who refuse vaccines to prove that you can live without them.... to each their own Living Truth...


I completely agree. It's silly to deny the obvious benefits of medicine.



blessings for health


Same to you, my dear.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:18:57 AM
I've heard of a certain Jew who stood up in front of the authorities KNOWING he would be suffering for it.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 19 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:03:22 AM
"They" did not back up.


They were walking backward in the video I saw.


She certainly resisted moving back, though the man with her would seem to have tried to pull her away. They could have simply turned around and walked away.


You could just not post. Should you have the right to reply to my challenge, my most lucid and debate-worthy friend?

They could have walked BACKWARDS faster than that. They were not trying to get away, or at least the woman wasn't.

You could stop talking right now, though I would prefer you don't, since I enjoy your contributions on this forum.


That suggests she wanted confrontation.


That suggests she felt she had the right to be there, and that she disagreed with the armed control of her movements. I feel I have the right to argue with a cop telling me not to be somewhere when I'm not doing anything bad.


In fact, one of the last things before the police act, is that she DOES confront them.


Before the police act? They came up behind her. If I pinch your bum and you slap me for it are you the first to act?


The initial appearance of the couple in the video appears as if she is either trying to dance in front of the police


It didn't seem that way to me, rather it seemed she was reacting defensively (not that that's smart).


, or draw her companion towards them.


Wouldn't you garner the support of your immediate friends?


The only evidence we have is video taped behavior, and that behavior is not consistent with innocent bystanders with bad timing, but of protesters SEEKING confrontation.


If you say the context is inconclusive, how can you say this is evident of seeking confrontation. I am not being simply antagonist, rather I really don't see that she was seeking confrontation. I see her reacting (and I don't say it's smart) defensively but within her right.


Second, if you are facing a wall of armed and armored police, why do you approach them?


Why did David confront Goliath? Why did Martin Luther King Jr. speak up in public? Do you only post when you feel you have no challenge? (rhetorical)


It only requires a couple brain cells to decide "wrong direction". Further to this, and without any police training myself, does ANY armed force allow a potential adversary to get behind them? Of course not. The shields, armor, and clubs form a single wall facing the opposition, and is not effective once the opposition is between or behind.


The chick with the slim butt and the dread-lock hippie were a threat to a riot squad dozens thick? They couldn't have said "Miss, you can step to the side, OK?" and made sure she went that way without the result of her being on the ground? Froggy, do you want the cops to act this way toward you?


They're not getting past, but I sure bet they could have walked a block out of their way if they actually had somewhere to go.


Absolutely they could have. Except they were surprised, unless you're SURE they weren't. Can I rely on you to act perfectly rationally when surprised by armed dozens?


In short, it's unimportant why the riot police were there.


Never, my well spoken friend.


There are only two reasons to NOT avoid an armed police force. The first is, you're in the wrong. The second is, you're just stupid.


Third: you disagree, and it's possible the police force, say, in South Africa in the 80's for example, are in the wrong.


The police were not running, not rushing, the students could have WALKED away.


The cops were clearly in control. They could have used one armed officer to escort the couple to the side.


They CHOSE not to. That doesn't dictate that they "deserve" anything, but it DOES mean they are setting themselves up for a fall


I can't disagree with that.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 17 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:34:24 PM
First, the video is presented right from the start with an anti-police bias. It's not meant to be objective, so we certainly can't expect it to tell the "whole story".


The video is titled "Riot police assault young couple." That seems factual if editorially slanted. It's clearly not intended to support the riot police involved, but I would not characterize it as necessarily "anti-police."


Second, there's no useful audio, but the two "students" in the film appear to be deliberately confronting the police.


From what I can tell the girl is surprised by the initial shove - to her back. Then her guy friend tries to get her away from the approaching riot squad. The response she gives looks to me like "hey, I'm just walkin' here, WTF!"

Why should she not be allowed to walk there, at that time?


At the very least, they are consistantly moving TOWARDS the police, when they should be moving AWAY.


I saw that the two of them kept backing up.

Anyway, why should they be moving away. We pay our police to protect our rights and freedoms. Should we have to sacrifice our freedom to walk on campus because a certain officer in charge is in no mood to brook the walking of two hippies in their way? It's important to let the police do their job, but shouldn't there be limits on their power?

If you're just going to the library, why are you a problem to the police?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 13 (view)
 
World First - Vaccine helps prevent HIV infection
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:11:42 PM
Natural selection weeds out phenotypes (groups of individuals with a certain allele or group of alleles).

Sadly sexual practices that endanger humans are not correlated to any phenotype. There are a lot of people who have misconceptions about sex, disease transmission, viruses (virii), double-blind tests, statistical inference and placebos and their nature (obvious in this thread), and the action of leukocytes. In other words allowing natural selection to act on this virus will not likely change its incidence. We will be left with the problem, except fewer people to have it. It will not be weeded out at all with natural selection.

Education would be a help, but I think only a marginal one until it was available in such well-disseminated venues as we have in Canada and over a long period. Being educated about a threat changes nothing in your DNA. Being able to be educated about a viral threat is not correlatable to any DNA.

I like humans but I'm not too terribly attached. May the best phenotype win.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 39 (view)
 
Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:46:44 PM

First is his eternal perspective. The Bible says unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. The son is not born, the child is born. The son is given because the son eternally existed. He prays in his high priestly prayer “restore to me the glory Father that I had in your presence before this world was made.”


In "the gospel of Scotland's greatest gift" I am lauded as well.


Jesus is the only creature in existence as part of the God head whose reason for existence is in him-self. Jesus fuses every moment of history with meaning. If he is transcending over time, if he is the eternal “I Am” and is always ever present then he fuses all time with meaning.


I am part of the god-head too. Wait 5000 years. I will have filled all that time with meaning too.


Second is his internal imperative. He did not come to set up a political power that would rule and constrain from without. He came to touch the hearts of men and women that would bring the imperative from within.


Setting it up right here (obviously).


Napoleon said “Alexander’s kingdom and my kingdom will ultimately come to not, but Jesus’ kingdom is indestructible because ours was dominated by power and force. He has dominated the life of people with the power of love.


Go ahead, ask. I am very well loved on Plenty of Fish.


Third is his personal directive. As vast as this world is, as vast is this world was, Christ had time for the individual. His message is personal in the cosmic scheme of things how marvelous it is that he has time for you and me.


I have time for you. Post and see if I don't respond.


Forth is his inspirational incentive. How his existence has influenced and inspired people throughout time, from then to today.


I bet I'm influencing you right now, as, and because you read this.


Fifth is his incarnational distinctive. As the word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth.


"Vichycycl." That's a word. I am flesh. I have not lied to you ever, and I would share some gorgeous Beethoven with you by playing my trumpet. It's pretty graceful.

I still don't think you've clarified how your guy is more memorable. Could you point me to a reason to contrast me and your guy in the sense the OP intended?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
 
RE: The right to protest?
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:24:01 PM
The two people in the video were walking along on a university campus at night. They knew there was a protest involved and that riot police were there.

Absolutely context makes a lot of difference. Police have a tough job to do. If police were responding to an immediate threat and a guy and a girl got in the way then the police would be well advised to get those two people out of the way. However if the police were feeling a little charged and wanted to brook no guff then they do not have the right to force a couple to abdicate a right of protest.

I can't see if there was a fire or riot occuring to which the cops were marching. However it is pretty clear this couple was no kind of threat.

We allow cops to carry guns because we want somebody to be the cool heads and we want the cool heads to have the advantage of a strong bargaining position. If those whom we give this power can't keep the cool heads they should lose that power.

See 'V for Vendetta' for a concise explanation of what goes wrong when cops are given carte blanche.

Sympathy for the cops. More sympathy for the protestors.

Could you please post something more engaging than "US is a police state?" Most of us, including, it seems, the OP, are here for more than that.

P.S. Toronto sucks. I went to Lakehead.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 337 (view)
 
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:11:46 PM
stargargazer:


if there is any insight (other than intelligent designer, that is) for RNA and DNA to have become more "complex" over time.


I'm guessing you get the idea that random mutation coupled with natural selection (RMNS) is the mechanism, per se, that does it.


It's easy to see that early forms of DNA would have been very simple things to begin with but, over time and exposure and interaction with the environment and other primitive RNA and DNA strands, bits and pieces being added, subtracted etc.


Yes. What rests at status quo does not compete in the environment as anything that tries all changes as well as keeping the status quo. Therefore any system, like DNA with the opportunity for RMNS is going to proceed into competition better than those that rely on the status quo.


Is there any insight into this process? Points of "connection" that have been identified in the DNA strand, so-called "junk" DNA, etc.? I'm interested in the insights from people here who actually have a background in biological processes.


This is an example of the human genome losing the functionality of producing vitamin C when two of our chromosomes fused. We, as a lineage, branched off from the lineage that kept the gene, the Lemuriformes (ring-tailed lemurs) and the Lorisiformes (lorises). Now we are clearly different than them and our genes confirm that.

The change happened when two of our ancestors' genes fused. The point at which they fused contained the allele that coded for production of vitamin C.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 540 (view)
 
Pseudoscience - knowledge which masquerades as science
Posted: 9/27/2009 8:00:07 PM

It probably is true then that the primal ooze didn't promise what form it would or could eventually take .


Exactly.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 71 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 9/27/2009 7:38:48 PM

i expected an atheist to pounce


I'm a cat person. Therefore I have a brain infection of the bacteria Toxoplasmodi gondii apparently.

Thanks for never letting me un-know that Bright1.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 328 (view)
 
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:55:07 PM
Missiles do not have sex. They do not fall in love with each other. They do not mate. There is no exchange of the design of their guidance systems when they meet. Missiles don't have a population that interacts and mixes the design concepts among the population and tries all combinations and then filters out the less-well-guided missiles by natural missile selection.

Biological organisms have sex. They fall in love. They mate. There is exchange of the design of their systems when they meet and propogate. They have populations that share and mix the combinations and then filter out the less-well-adaptive organisms by natural selection.

How do you like your eggs?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 56 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:43:59 PM
jbogie: you have demonstrated the ability to debate rationally. I just want to clarify one thing. Sorry to nit-pick, but...


<div class="quote">thiest: one who believes it to be fact that god exists.

atheist: one who believes it to be fact that god does not exist.

I am atheist. I don't believe it is a fact that god does not exist. I believe it is not a fact that god does exist. I give as much credence to the idea of god as I do to the idea of Santa Claus. It would be silly for me to proclaim that I KNOW there is no god. I (a-) lack (theist) belief in god.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 37 (view)
 
Kirk Cameron compares Charles Darwin to Hitler!
Posted: 9/26/2009 2:22:23 AM


The only reason one can recognize "Anglican", "Catholic", "Protestant", "Baptist", etc, is because they differ in their dogma, even though all are nominately Christian.


WOW! I'm a Jew, and even I know that Catholics are totally different to Anglicans, even on a purely social level.


Whatever religion you, the poster, are, the point is that the only reason anyone can recognize an "Anglican" form a "Catholic" is because of the difference in the dogma. You know that was the point and you know that had nothing to do with the fact you are a Jew or not.

May all people enjoy happiness long.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 323 (view)
 
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/26/2009 2:10:59 AM
Not really. That would be suggesting that all guiding systems work only in one direction, and they don't.


You're right. A system that was supposed to make a certain thing happen would have to make continual course corrections. Good thing natural selection doesn't claim it has any specific goal. All bungling and all blind 'course corrections' are allowed until they don't work, so any 'design' is tried without any check on its efficacy aforethought.

Aforethought really doesn't work, actually, because there is NO thought.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 307 (view)
 
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/24/2009 11:27:31 PM
'Rolled back' doesn't mean I can't post, right?

Housekeeping is a trait inherited from previous generations. Once upon a time we all left our underwear on the floor. Then a mutation happened (obviously a recessive Y chromosome allele) and we started wanting it picked up.

Scripture proves it:

Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.
Matthew 12:44

It's like DNA that replicates itself. If it doesn't do it in order it will create an organism that doesn't survive. Only the organisms that are in survivable order will be there when whoever Matthew is talking about returns, right?
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 49 (view)
 
Words to The God!
Posted: 9/24/2009 11:02:08 PM

OK. Since there is no control over what survives or not


I haven't been clear, obviously. Selection means death. I refer you to my example of the allele that helps protect against Hep C. The control of what survives is death. If an organism with an adaptive mutation lives then it will influence the generations that follow it. They will have that mutation. Other organisms in the population won't and will not be as statistically likely to reproduce. Please, I'm trying to explain. What is unclear about natural selection being the control of the mutations?


, then how can it be claimed that we "evolved"? Doesn't that mean we got "better" over time? Or does it just mean that we changed?


"Better" is a subjective term. Sauropods got quite large and outcompeted their competitors, right? Now they aren't here. At one time T. Rex was doing quite well, but large size and big teeth did nothing for it when Earth's atmosphere was covered in dust from a meteor impact and all T. Rex's food died because there were no plants for T. Rex's prey to eat. So to answer, we, and all other animals, just changed. We are all always just changing. The changing environment will select us.


If we just changed, then why is it that there is a steady progression towards more complex, and, for lack of a better word, "better"? According to this hypothesis, evolution could have, AT ANY POINT during the ascension out of the murky soup from which we crawled, gone the other way, yet, with all those literally MILLIONS of chances to go towards the bad side, and die out, we get man.


What didn't we get? Are you saying man is the best there could have been? Yes, we could have been wiped out at any time, but as Frog said in the thread on pseudoscience


...it is far more likely that the unfortunate beings on the lifeless planets are not whining about their bad luck.


We are the lucky ones who lived. You are the one saying we were predestined. It is not the TOE that is claiming we "should have" survived. Again, we just happened to survive.


That to me is like going to a casino and going to the roulette table and betting on "red" for whatever number of times it took to get to "MAN".


Again, that discounts natural selection. You're not counting all the times black came up. The TOE does.


Or, perhaps, we are the result of many missed opportunities, and could have been much more advanced, yet evolution didn't follow that route.


YES! That's it!
 
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