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 Author Thread: Height/Size Contridiction?
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 309 (view)
 
Height/Size Contridiction?
Posted: 3/26/2009 5:41:55 PM

Jonathan Dorman oh excuse me I mean borg **snickers** You can't have two profiles on here you know?


I am not borg.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 308 (view)
 
Height/Size Contridiction?
Posted: 3/26/2009 5:39:37 PM
^^^

I totally think you might be on to something here.

And you're right that there hasn't been a single kind and supportive word said about short men since this thread (and many other of this nature) has started. A short man can believe in himself, be proud of his height, be a good person, and be more compassionate than your average guy...but he won't be seen as a "MAN" by a majority of women and so he will struggle in the realm of dating (and maybe life in general).

Meanwhile, if he dares to speak to a woman in a romantic way, he takes the risk of getting a "how dare you" type of response...apparently, it's common knowledge among women that being seen with a short man is insulting to their femininity.

And instead of sympathy or empathy, even fat women are telling these guys to shut up and move on.

Shameful really.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 295 (view)
 
Height/Size Contridiction?
Posted: 3/25/2009 6:16:41 AM

If a woman is 5"11, and she states she prefers taller men, and you are 5"9...why bother to write to her?


What does the woman's height matter in your scenario? By that logic, the 5'9" man should also not bother to write a 5'1" woman who prefers 6'0" men. The fact is that a person doesn't know whether or not they have a shot until they contact the other person.

I don't think this is the foundation of the "hard feelings" (as you put it)...I think it's the false stereotypes and assumptions that are often behind the height requirements which offends most short guys (and some taller guys too).

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 446 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 1/29/2009 3:02:54 PM

Formula for height is acutally this when it comes to kids (this is accurate most of the time)

For Boys
FAther's height + Mothers height +13 Cm/2

For Girls
FAthers Height + Mothers height -13 Cm/2

2.54Cm=1inch

So if I am 5'8" and I concieve a child with a girl of 5'6" that child (if a boy) has a pretty good chance he's going to be at least 5'11" or 6'0" this is assuming he is healthy and nurtured properly. Most women wonder why they have short kids when their husband is tall, it's actually cause you're short not your guy.


This is all true, but it reminds me of the United States' presidential election where Obama had to continue to insist that he wasn't a Muslim. But almost no one took a moment to say "what's wrong with being a Muslim?"

The same thing is going on here. When she said that she doesn't date short men for genetic reasons, instead of going on about how short men come from short women...someone could have at least said "what's wrong with being short?"

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 425 (view)
 
Shallowness; Guys vs Girls
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:45:58 PM

Good point, had those thoughts in mind, and but I didn't want to make my last post even longer. Answer to that is, I believe it still is rare. Why?
1) If a woman has a huge insecurity -- it usually runs deep enough that it's woven into compiling actual core attraction itself. In other words, it isn't something she thinks about, it's reflexive.


You can't have it both ways. This point negates your main argument.

Let's change the topic from height to race so that the point can be better understood.

Suppose that a white man believes that he is not attracted to any black women. Is this racism? According to you, it would depend. If he simply is repulsed by black skin, then this is natural to him and so it is not shallow and cannot be judged. BUT, if he is doesn't date black women because he believes black people are inferior or he believes that black people are immoral, then he is a racist.

Fair enough.

But here is where your argument breaks down.

You also believe that it is not racist for this same person to reject black women because his racism "runs so deep that it is woven into his being and compels his actual core attraction".

This is essentially defining a term through the use of that same term. The logic is completely circular and thus, invalid.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 414 (view)
 
Shallowness; Guys vs Girls
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:00:42 PM

My bottom line was to separate the distinction between commonly natural attraction preferences vs ultra-picky-I-want-to-be-like-Paris-Hilton. When there's a commonly natural attraction preference of one gender about another, you can't even -think- of calling them shallow for that. Shallowness or the opposite doesn't apply there.


Well this is a fundamental difference in understanding between me and you. We just share different philosophies on this issue. You believe that commonly desired characteristics do not make someone shallow, but rare characteristics might. I think the exact opposite. It is common for men to like big breast on women. And so a man who will only date big breasted women is shallow (imho). However, it is rarer for men to like women with fat ankles. So a man who only dates women with fat ankles is less shallow than the man who only dates women with big breasts.

It's just a difference in understanding here.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 409 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 1/26/2009 6:44:23 AM

And if you seriously think that "most women value height more than honesty," then you're either seriously warped and need some therapy or there are way more height-obsessed women in the world than I thought. But then how do you explain all of the short guys I know getting married and many of the tall ones who can't get a woman to save their life?


Women clearly value height more than honesty...that's a no brainer. But that's mostly because all humans value the physical over the emotional before they actually love someone. The physical comes first and so it makes sense that women value height over honesty.

And saying that you know short men who do well with women and tall men who do not is completely anecdotal. It's like saying that you know a wealthy black person and so there is no racism. And anyway, my theory should work better online. A short guy doesn't need to lie about his height if he is standing right in front of the woman. He doesn't even need to mention his height. And if a woman asks a short man how tall he is in person; then that's probably a bad sign anyway.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 407 (view)
 
Shallowness; Guys vs Girls
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:10:43 PM
1) Attraction is not a choice.
2) It is natural for a guy to be attracted to a girl who isn't notably overweight and has curves.
3) It is natural for a gal to be attracted to a guy taller than she is.
4) You can't ask people to change their tastes. If there's a trend in taste and has a natural root to it, it's not their fault; they're not shallow.


I'd be careful using the word "natural".

Is it natural for a man to be attracted to another man?

What someone feels is "natural" is completely irrelevant. People like what they like and sometimes even that changes. However, I agree that we shouldn't try to guilt people into dating folks that they're not attracted to. But that's not what I've done. I've simply produced a mathematically sound strategy to increase the chances of a short man to get a date online when so many women are prejudiced against short guys.

It's not a conspiracy against shallow women. It's a strategy to help short men.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 405 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:43:18 PM
So what you're saying is a good apple is someone that lies and puts up a false persona? I've had guys lie to me about their height so now I just consider it a given. I have no respect for liars PERIOD! This is the same when people lie about their weight/age, etc. What does it benefit if you know you are going to meet the person? The real you is going to show up, no?


That's not what I was saying at all. I am saying that it doesn't matter what you think to a short man. You don't like short men, so why should he care if he hurts your feeling through a lie? A short man increases his chances by going on more dates. He should ignore the feelings of the shallow ones and hope that some of the women don't mind that he's short.

In other words, a short man increases the number of dates he can go on by lying about his height. The consequences will be one of three things.

(1) The shallow woman will reject him on sight.
(2) The woman won't even notice that he is shorter than he claimed and he will have a fair shot.
(3) The woman will notice that he is shorter than he claimed, but she won't care that he is short.

The number one (1) option is a wash because that woman wouldn't have chosen him had he put his real height down. The number two (2) option is a wash because that woman would have dated him even if she had known the truth. The number three (3) option is the "pick up" that a short man can get by pretending to be taller than he really is on a website. The number three woman would have overlooked his profile on the net, but she might go for him when he shows up at the date.

There is a number (4) option. This is the woman who would have gone out with the short man, except for the fact that he told a lie. These women value honesty more than height. And these women are one in a BILLION. They almost don't exist and so a short man shouldn't take this into consideration.

To prove that they don't exist, just imagine a guy lying about his height by claiming to be shorter than he is in real life. Then imagine him showing up to the hypothetical date as a taller man than he claimed. Would many woman leave him because of the lie? Probably not. Most women value the height more than the honesty, and so short men should not worry about the number (4) option.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 82 (view)
 
Old school bully asked me out....
Posted: 1/4/2009 5:55:38 PM

Please don't go making up shit that never happened, such as her boyfriend beating the guy up.
Instead, just read what the OP posted.


I read the original post, but it was way to vague to know what the hell she did that set him off so. I'm just saying that it's hard to judge him until we know more about what happened. Also, you're assuming that "her friends" were other females. How do we know that they weren't male bullies too. How do we know that these weren't a group of people who verbally harassed him every day, and that she was just one of the main bullies?

Who don't know what the hell happened to him...that's all I'm saying. It looks like you're the one making all sorts of assumptions about what did or didn't happen.
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 81 (view)
 
Old school bully asked me out....
Posted: 1/4/2009 3:57:50 PM

She more than deserved the rejection.. it was the anger with which he gave it that wasn't so hot. The harshness of his turning her down lets her know that she can still upset him quite a lot .. that's actually the worst thing about the whole situation.


Fair enough. But we don't know what this woman actually did to him. The term bullying is sort of vague. It can range from anything from teasing to criminal harassment or physical violence. We don't know what this woman did to him and so it's hard for us to judge if he went to far or didn't go far enough.

We don't know if she simply teased him, or if she harassed him terribly and had her boyfriend frequently beat him up, or something. I can think of plenty of situations of harassment in which what he did would be completely justified.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 213 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 3:30:26 PM

What a bunch of judgmental elitist crap. Who made you the determiner of good and bad based on what a person finds attractive?


No one made me the determiner of good and bad people. But it would be totally reasonable for a short man to judge a woman who would judge him based on his height, without knowing anything about him, as a bad person. Or at least a shallow person whom he should want nothing to do with. Is that so "elitist"? Why should a short man want to be with a woman who is so shallow that she absolutely refuses to acknowledge his existence because of how many inches his eyebrows are from the ground?


You treat people well because it's who you are not because the other person is good or bad based on your judgments.


This has nothing to do with "treating people well". A short man is not "treating people badly" by lying about his height. If the woman is so humiliated to be seen in public with a short man, then whose problem is that? You're blaming the short man, and I'm blaming the woman. It's not a matter of "treating people well/badly".


That's just sickening. I'll tell a guy I'm athletic build and when he meets me and I'm really carting around an extra 100 pounds it's on him for being deceived. Besides I don't "owe" him honesty because I wouldn't have had a chance if he knew I wasn't what he expected.


Exactly.

Except there is one small difference. A women who is 100 lbs overweight has a much bigger pool of men who will accept her than a 5'4" man has women who will accept him. Additionally, don't you find it strange that things that men tend to find unattractive (such as excessive weight) are given vague euphemisms like "average", "athletic", and BBW, while the things that women tend to find unattractive (such as short stature) are required to be given with exact specificity (such as 5'10" instead of "average height")?

Just some...well...food for thought.



You're dreaming up a terrible world there Doeman in your pursuit for an idealized one for short men.


Not so. The world is already pretty terrible if women are automatically rejecting you at every turn because you happen to be 5'4". It makes no sense for you to do any height shallow women any favors. Your only goal should be increasing the number of potential dates.

There is no "special person" out there waiting on anyone. This is all a numbers game. It's a crap shoot. If we increase the number of people we see, we increase the chance of finding compatibility.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 210 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 12:08:12 PM
But I'm not content with the concept of having to "persuade" a woman who might otherwise want a taller man to date me. In my experiences the old saying "the leopard doesn't change his spots" has rung true and I wouldn't want to feel as though someone "settled" for me. Or that I should thank my lucky stars she "gave me a chance" because I'd be better off by myself.


aaaaauuuggh!

All men have to persuade women to go for them. That's the name of the game. Plus, dating is a numbers game and so you have to be in it to win it. Get it out of your head that there is some magical woman out there who prefers short men to tall men and that she is just waiting for that honest short man for her to contact him. That ain't happening.

You have to be 100x more aggressive than you're being now.

Plus, the idea that "a leopard doesn't change his spots" refers to male leopards, not female ones. I've got several female friends. Some of them are with "short men" and are very happy. But I have heard all of those women say that they could NEVER even consider dating a man shorter than such-and-such height. Women don't know what they want, and their minds are easily changed once a man gets in their head.

Our society is fixated on height, and so that's why women seem more dramatic about it than any other thing that they might find unattractive. However, once a woman falls in love, then she will like everything that her lover represents. Suddenly, she will like bald men, even though she refused to date one in the past. Suddenly, she won't think money is so important and that a man's wealth resides in his kind heart . Trust me, women change their minds constantly.

But the only way to do that is to meet them in person and kill them with your charm. What's the worst that can happen? She gets a free meal in exchange for having to spend one hour of dinner with *gasp* a SHORT MAN in a semi-romantic context. How embarrassing for her . But, the good news is that you'll be doing other short guys a favor, even if you don't get that particular girl.

Our culture is so biased against short men that there are some women out there whose worst nightmare is to be seen with a short man in public. It would do these women some good to be put in a situation which proves that short men are really no different from tall men. It's not going to change her overnight, but it should help things out for your fellow short brothers.


And no my height, at least in my opinion, is not the sum total of who I am. Unfortunately that's not the way many women here see it.


Here or anywhere else in our culture. For many (most?) women, a short man's height is all the woman needs to know about the guy. Nothing else matters. But that's the reason why you should lie about it. You only have a shot once you are on the date. You have NO SHOT if they shoot your down before they read any of your profile...which they will do when they see your height.

Again...good luck, my friend.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 206 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 11:09:21 AM
In a nutshell survivor sums it up.....she like most girls find taller guys more attractive. And that's why it makes no sense to lie....because they will meet you and will not find you attractive. So why bother to waste a girls time and at the same time have to walk away disapointed. No matter how many rejections/disapointments I've had to face in my lifetime I would never resort to lying about my height.


So, we know that most women find taller guys more attractive. Are you saying then that short men should shoot themselves? Why should a short man be concerned about the feelings of a woman who would reject him because of how God made him?

The issue is that without seeing a woman in person, a short man is not going to know the women who find short men unattractive from the women who can be persuaded to give him a chance. In most cases, we've already established that short men enter into happy relationships with women because the women get over themselves...not because they find the needle-in-a-haystack woman who likes shorter men over taller men.


And that's why it makes no sense to lie....because they will meet you and will not find you attractive.


How do you know this? If this were true, then short men would NEVER enter relationships...and yet, they do. Granted, they do so at a much lesser rate than taller men, but short men usually find women to date.

You don't know whether a woman will find you attractive enough until you meet her IN PERSON.


So why bother to waste a girls time and at the same time have to walk away disapointed.


Because a short man should have NO CONCERN for the feelings or "time" of a woman who is hung up on height. A short man cannot know the good women from the bad until he meets them in person. And he shouldn't concern himself with those women who will be disappointed. That's their problem, not the short man's problem.


No matter how many rejections/disapointments I've had to face in my lifetime I would never resort to lying about my height.


Then you might have a Complex (if such a thing exists). You are giving so much power to your short stature that you are shutting yourself out of the dating game. You yourself have said that the rejections you've faced over your height have been so numerous that you've stopped contacted women all together. This is totally the wrong approach. You already have nothing to lose (apparently)...so why not lie so that you can meet more women. Yes, some will be "disappointed"...but who cares about them anyway?

Dating is not for the weak. Get out there, my friend. Create a new profile and lie about your height. If your height isn't really the sum of your being (which it shouldn't be), then you should be able to lie about it. Just don't get carried away. No more than three inches.

Good luck.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 78 (view)
 
Old school bully asked me out....
Posted: 1/4/2009 10:30:36 AM
I'm not sure what to think of this thread. But I do know one thing.

If the gender roles were reversed, this thread would look very different. If it were a male bully who verbally abused a woman and then asked her out years later...many fewer person would be blaming the OP. It looks like the OP was already victimized by this woman, and then most of the posters victimize him further by saying he's being "too sensitive" by rejecting her.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 202 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 10:03:41 AM

I've tried meeting men on POF who would be considered short. I tend to lose interest because they lack self-confidence and I become annoyed. If I were to meet someone who is considered to be short and he possessed self-confidence (no arrogance), his height would be a non-issue.




Short men supposedly lack self confidence, but the ones who have it might be "arrogant"? Huuummm. This is most likely a perception issue. Have you ever met a self-confident short man?

There are plenty of self-confident short men (in my experience, most short men are no more or less confident than tall men). But when a short man displays confidence, he is seen by others as having a "napoleon complex". If a tall man demonstrates the same self-confidence, he is seen by others as being an "alpha male".


Absolutely. Ever heard "Fake it till you make it"? I'd give that a shot if I were you


This is what I've been saying about lying. Short guy's should fake their height until they've met a woman who isn't hung up on height.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 200 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 9:17:51 AM


However the guy who is short already has a strike against him with a lot of girls therefore the fact he lied will provide the perfect reason for the woman to reject him and at the same time she won't have to admit it's in part due to his lack of height


This was the whole point of the scenario. Women care about the height more than the lie. They only use the "lie" as a pretense for rejection so that they seem less shallow. And, it's not "in part due to his height"...it's 100% due to that. The "I rejected him for lying" is pure pretense.

Therefore, there is no problem with a short guy lying. He would have been rejected any way by those types of women. It's a wash. He only increases the number of dates he goes on. He must first go on the date if he wants a chance to overcome her height bias. You've got to be in it to win it.


Just curious Jon as I see your height listed as 5-11 (which is usually adequate for most girls) have you ever considered adding an inch to your height knowing six foot is often a magical number most women would consider an ideal height for their mate. Once again not saying you're not tall enough but do you wonder if your responses would be greater if the listing was six foot?


I've already added an inch to my height. I'm really 5'10", but whose going to notice one inch? The reason I didn't go two inches is because I'm tall enough for that not to matter. Also, people get more "offended" if you claim to be 6'0" and you are not. For some reason, our society deems 6'0" as some "magical number". It's apparently blasphemous to claim 6'0" when you are shorter, but not so bad to claim 5'11"...go figure.

It probably has to do with the standard units of measurements. If our society used the metric system, then it probably wouldn't matter. 6'0" tall sounds "special" to women. But 183cm probably seems less so.

And yes, my responses (if I were looking on this site) would increase if I were 6'0". But if I were shorter, it would increase more. For instance, a 5'10" man get's less benefit claiming 5'11" than a 5'6" man would benefit from claiming 5'7".

Also...there is no such thing as "tall enough". It's all in the minds of women. There is nothing wrong with being 5'4" as a guy. There is nothing wrong with being 6'8" as a guy. Height is not good or bad...it's just a physical characteristic that has no connection to your physical health or well-being (except for the discriminatory factor).

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 198 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 9:04:17 AM

I don't' believe that for one second jonathan and neither does anyone else. Every single short guy thread you participate in . Don't think you are fooling anyone


I'm not going to go into my history or how I came across this topic...but it doesn't really matter if you believe me. I'm average height at 5'10".

So, I guess if a woman is concerned about how fat women are treated by men...she too must be fat?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 195 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 8:46:33 AM

Jonathan, you are the reason so many women don't want to date short guys. Get over it. You can't change your height but you can change your attitude.


I'm 5'10". I don't consider myself short. But the issue interests me.

But, I find it interesting that you assumed that I muse be short. So now that you know that I'm average height...what does that say about my "attitude"?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 194 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/4/2009 8:44:22 AM

And women regardless if they care about a mans height or not will ALWAYS care when he lies.


Oh really?

I can prove this to be false through a simple thought experiment. It only requires that you be honest with yourself and truly think about what would happen in the scenario.

Imagine that a guy puts up a profile on POF in which he claims to be 5'9". Imagine now that five different random women view his profile and like what they see. Now imagine that he chats with all five of these women and he sets up dates with them. He plans to date one on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, etc.

Now imagine that he shows up to each date, except instead of being 5'9". . . . he is actually 6'0". Now, he has lied about his height. Of the five women, how many would you honestly expect would reject him for the lie?

If you are honest with yourself, you should reply "zero". None of the women would reject him because he lied about his height and is taller than he claimed. Some might question him or assume that it must be an honest mistake, but none would simply reject him because he lied. That is because the height is more important than the lie.

Now imagine the same scenario...except this time, the guy shows up as 5'6" instead of his claimed 5'9". Notice that the magnitude of the lie is the same (3 inches of height). But how many of the women would reject him this time? Four out of five? All five? I don't know. But I know that more would reject him for lying about three inches in this direction than three inches in the other direction. Therefore, it's not about the lie, it's about the height. The women who would "reject him for the lie" are the same women who wouldn't have scheduled a date in the first place if they knew the truth. Therefore, he loses nothing by lying. He actually increases the number of potential dates he goes on.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 191 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/3/2009 11:33:30 PM

Do people who post pictures that are 10 years old benefit when the people they meet reject them? How about the ones who list "no" for kids on their profile because their kids don't live with them?


Yes...all those people benefit by lying. A 40 year old woman has a better chance of landing a man if she says she's 30. This is a fact...whether we like it or not.


A short guy is wasting his energy going for a girl who cares about height. Why not focus on the ones that don't care?


Two reasons, I assume:

1) The pool of women who don't care about height is infinitesimally small. It would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

2) How would a short guy know the "I don't hate your height" women from the "I hate you" women?


We all want someone who wants us for who and what we are not in spite of it.


We all want that...but I don't know that this is possible for a short guy. First of all, height does not make the man. So a man might be giving his short stature too much power by insisting on a woman who loves his short stature. I don't see anything wrong with finding a woman who doesn't like short men, but whom likes a particular short man because of his other qualities.

And usually, that's how it happens.

Do you know ANY women who prefer short men over tall men? I don't. I'm not saying that they don't exist. I'm saying that I've never met one. And yet, short men still find love and get married. Why is that? The answer is that women are loving short men "in spite" of their height. You can even see this in the language women use when they talk about the short guy in their life. They'll say things like "He's short, BUT ". Or they'll say, "I don't mind dating a short man if he doesn't have a Napoleon Complex" (read: "I don't date short men because they are inferior to me...but I will date a short man who is different from how I judge other short men").

So yeah...no one wants someone to want us "in spite of what we are"...but this is often the best option for a very short guy.

Hey...don't kill the messenger people. I'm on short guy's side.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 190 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/3/2009 11:22:45 PM

I have nothing against men shorter than myself. What I have a problem with is a man who has on his profile that he's 5'10", insists on the phone that he's 5'10", but when we meet, he's only 5'4". That's what ticks me off and is the deal breaker, no matter how wonderful he may be otherwise.


How many men have you dated whom are shorter than you?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 189 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/3/2009 11:21:33 PM
I don't condone any guy lying about his height. And it makes it tough for guys like me that are honest about their height (5-7 in my case) because women assume most shorter guys are adding a couple of inches.


So now, a short guy shouldn't lie about his height for the benefit of guys who are taller than him? That makes no sense (no offense). The short guy owes you (his competition) even LESS than he owes the woman who he's trying to date. It's a jungle out there. No one owes anyone anything. If lying improves a guy's (or woman's) chances at finding love...then more power to them. They are taking a risk for lying and we all take a risk when we agree to a date with someone.

It's just that in the case of a short man; the risk of the lie is much less than the risk that comes with simply being how God made you. A short guy on this site once changed his height by making himself several inches taller. He wanted to see if he would get different results with the same profile. When he posted his true height at 5'5", he got zero hits over a four month period. Then he took the exact same profile and picture and made his height 6'0" tall. He got 72 hits during the same four months. He didn't accept any dates with them, but he was able to prove a point to himself.

This has nothing to do with short men, but about others who believe them to be inferior for various reasons. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a short guy who doesn't lie about his height is putting too much emphasis on his height. It's like he's saying "I believe that my height is so important that I'd rather be single forever than to forsake my height and lie so that I may get a date".


Plus I never understood anyway why anyone would misrepresent themselves on their profile because eventually it will become apparent who you actually are.


This is an easy one. The answer lies in the phenomenon of "selection error". What I mean is that the people who care about what you are misrepresenting (in this case, height) would not have gone out with you in the first place if they had known the truth. So that's a wash. BUT, the people who don't care about what you are misrepresenting will NOT EVEN NOTICE that you lied. So the misrepresentation can sometimes be a win/win. You get to weed out the shallow people and still date the people who don't care about what you are lying about. The only time that this logic won't work is when the person is rejected for the misrepresentation itself, and not for the underlying disfavored characteristic. However, this is rarely the case with height. In 99.99% of the cases, a woman cares more about the height than the lie. I can prove this to be true, if anyone cares to know.


The poster who explained that the problem is not necessarily with the short guy but the insecure woman who won't date him is very correct. Too many times the guy is the one accused of having an issue with his height when often the reverse is true. And I've always believed most short guys lile myself have to posses a lot more mental toughness to deal with the higher level of rejection than a taller guy has to endure.


I can see that. But most women aren't going to attribute ANY positive characteristics to a guy BECAUSE he is short. They will attribute positive characteristics to a tall man, based on his height. But generally, only negative characteristics are attributed to a man's short stature...be they true or imagined.


Ultimately though it comes down to being a decent person who is likeable and fun to be around


That's AFTER you've already got the date. How are you going to get the date?


owever while most women here may say they want a nice, and genuine guy......that only applies if he's tall enough in many cases.


Hence, the purpose of the lie.


 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 182 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 1/3/2009 7:48:27 AM

What I have a problem with is a man who has on his profile that he's 5'10", insists on the phone that he's 5'10", but when we meet, he's only 5'4". That's what ticks me off and is the deal breaker, no matter how wonderful he may be otherwise. If he's not comfortable with his height, then he's not comfortable with who he is. And lying is a huge red flag for me, no matter how inconsequential the lie may seem to him.


It's hard to believe that a man who was 5'4" would put 5'10" on his profile. He was probably 5'8" or something and you misjudged his height.

But more importantly, if a guy is really 5'4"...it would make sense for him to lie. 5'10" would be a bit too much, but the strategy is still sound. There are more women who will reject him for his height than would reject him for lying and so it only make sense to lie. Dating is a numbers game. Also, a 5'4" guy can be totally comfortable with his height and still lie about it. This is because his height is not his problem...it's the problem of the insecure women who reject him on the basis of his height. So by lying about it, he will get more "initial hits" which he might be able to convert to successful dates.

Plus, if you didn't care about his height...why did you ask him AGAIN how tall he was over the phone? I think he did the right thing by lying. He didn't really owe you anything and you didn't owe him anything. You take a chance, and that's how it works.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 111 (view)
 
short men, tall women
Posted: 1/2/2009 9:16:09 PM

However, I will say that it is pretty damn pathetic when women (and men) have an absolute height/weight requirement.....like saying they'd ONLY date a guy 6'1 and above. Do these women carry compact tape measures around in their purses? Do they have some sort of sixth sense and can just magically sense if the guy they're with is 6'1? It would seem rude of me to ask a girl on the first date "hey you're really pretty, we have great chemistry and I love your personality, BUT how much do you weigh??" etc. etc., but at the same time, women seem to find it perfectly acceptable to ask a man how tall they are. Anyone see the double standard here?


Of course...you realize that many women will read this paragraph and accuse you of harboring a "short man's complex", right? The truth is that we should judge shallow people. There isn't anything wrong with being attracted to certain characteristics, but height requirements are shallow for the very reasons you illustrate in this paragraph.

The issue lays in the attitudes and insecurities of women...not short men. A short man can love himself and be proud of his height...but he will face the same statistical rate of rejection as a gloomier guy who is just as short. So telling short men to "cheer up" is a little naive (in my opinion). But I could be wrong...I'm on the outside of this debate, looking in.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 376 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/24/2008 10:05:43 AM

He didn't benefit at all from lying about or concealing his height... as a matter of fact there was no benefit or detriment because it was a non-issue. He "lost out" (arguably :P) because he made incorrect assumptions about me and treated me badly based on nothing more than those assumptions.


But like I've said to others...you are just one individual and dating is a numbers game. In your case, he was neither hurt nor harmed by concealing his height. But you must be one of the "good apples" I was talking about. So his mistake was not showing up to the date. The point about telling the truth would have eased his mind is irrelevant. Yes, if he had revealed his true height, you would have reassured him and he would have come on the date.

But...you are just one person. The odds are much better that a woman rejects him because of his height than for a woman to reassure him that she also dates short men. It would mathematically make no sense for him to reveal his true height in order to find that one in 500,000 woman who will date him before knowing his true height.

His error was in not following through on the lie (i.e., not showing up on the date). The fact that his height wouldn't have heart him in your case only strengthens my point.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 374 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/24/2008 8:13:13 AM

I had a guy string me along for a while with promises of a meeting.... we got along so well that I couldn't wait. When the time finally came, I spent hours getting ready, wanting to look my absolute best for him. I sat there waiting , and he was a no-show. In our conversations height had never come up.. . turns out that he's 5 inches shorter than me. Instead of telling me the truth and giving me the benefit of the doubt, he stereotyped me as being just like all the women who rejected him before... presumably because of his height. In our next conversation, he asked for another chance and I declined because I didn't want to continue anything with someone who would stereotype me and make assumptions (sound familiar?) and he got extremely angry. According to him, it's not that the stood me up, or that he didn't tell the truth or give me the benefit of the doubt.... I rejected him because he's short.

I guess it's just easier to blame your shortcomings (pun intended) on everyone else than it is to take a good look at yourself.


How many guys have you dated in the past who were five inches shorter than you?


Also...this proves my point. According to you, he would have had a shot if he only would have shown up to the date. So he benefited from lying about his height. It's HIS fault he chickened out at the last second. He's a coward, and it has nothing to do with the "lying about your height technique".

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 373 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/24/2008 8:10:02 AM
I can't believe you are telling men to lie about anything. If I met someone from online, and they obviously lied, about anything, I would question whether or not they lied about something deeper, that I can't see yet. I wouldn't see them again. I'd rather have the truth, so I could decide for myself if I wanted to pursue something further. If I figure out that a date lied, I immediately shut them out and decide not to see them again.


You are just one individual. Dating is a numbers game. A short man mathematically increases his chances at fighting a partner if he lies about his height. I don't really think there is a valid argument against that fact. Just because you would reject him for the lie doesn't mean that other women would. Most women would reject him for his height before they reject him for lying anyway, so he has nothing to lose by lying.

Think of it this way. If a man claims to be 5'8" on his profile and then shows up to the date at 6'0", would most woman reject him for the lie? Would they "wonder whether or not they lied about something deeper, that they can't see yet"? You don't have to answer that question because the answer is obvious.

It's not the lie that matters...it's the height.


If you have to lie about something as silly as height, then obviously you sensitive to criticism in that area. Don't apologize. Say 'this is me' and others will appreciate your honesty. If you are odd about it, whatever 'it' is, then other people will mirror that feeling back to you.


Something as silly as height? Are you kidding? Have you been reading these forums?

It's the only thing about a man that women seem to agree on. It's the one thing I've yet seen that causes the most automatic rejections. It's so important to most women that they attribute negative personalities and moral characteristics to men who don't have it.

It doesn't do a short man any good to be automatically rejected by a woman who will only date a man who is two inches taller than he. It makes no sense. Paradoxically, a short man puts way to much importance on his short stature by reporting it accurately. If height doesn't really matter, then there is nothing wrong with lying about it...right?

The women who care about height to the point that she would reject a man based on that sole reason are the bad apples. A short man shouldn't care whether or not he offends those women. The good apples might give the guy a chance if she thinks he is taller than her "cut-off" height. It's a win/win for the short guy.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 371 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/24/2008 7:36:53 AM

You're looking for someone to blame, you're bitter. You think that because some girls could have better tastes, they're doing something unfair to you? They don't owe you squat. And you don't owe them squat, either. You have no obligation to date a 6'2" woman, or a 3'0" woman. Just deal with the fact that you've got a social handicap of sorts. Play with the cards you're dealt with, don't call the game unfair because your cards are not optimal.


I'm 5'11" and I'm not really using this site for dating. It's funny how quickly you assumed I was short and then attacked me on that belief. I have nothing to be "bitter" about. I am simply using logic to expose the truth as I see it.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later.
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 155 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/20/2008 9:20:13 PM

Being with what you can get rather than what you actually want is indeed settling. It's true some older women give up and take what they can get since the pool shrinks but again that's nothing to be proud of. I'd much rather be chosen than be "the best a guy could get".


But of you're a chronically single woman...you might think about adjusting your list of "wants". It's all those "wants" that is the shallow problem. Maybe if these women looked more to what they NEED instead of what they "want" (which is always going to be heavily influenced by our society, friends, family, the media, etc.), they would be a lot happier people.

Going after what you NEED above what you WANT is not settling.

Believing otherwise would be like saying "I want a Million Dollars, and I'm not going to work if I get anything less than that. I wouldn't want to settle and thereby be thought of as a loser."
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 151 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/20/2008 8:38:25 PM

Selective reading and then going off into a rant over a few words read here and there will not help your cause to appear intelligent jonathan. You obviously missed the part where I said no scientific studies can prove that napoleon syndrome does not exist. I also said, and I will put it in caps to help you out, that "NO SCIENTIFIC STUDIES PROVE THAT NAPOLEAN SYNDROME DOES EXIST". Read the entire post next time.


A negative cannot be disproven. A scientific study does not strive to prove that something doesn't exist. It simply tries to determine whether something exists. All of the scientific studies done on the subject show that there is no evidence that a Napoleon Complex exists in real life. The burden is on those who believe the myth to prove that it exists.

To use your logic - there has been no scientific study which has been able to prove that Santa Claus does not exist. So this must mean that Santa Claus exists.
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 148 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:50:45 PM
^^^^

This just isn't true.

You are still very young...let's see what you say a decade from now. Overlooking shallow characteristics that have nothing to do with long-term relationships is not "settling". Being pragmatic is not "settling". Looking for a great person, instead of a great lay is not "settling".

I think you'll come to see this with time (as your age reduces the pool of men you could attract). It happens to all women.

Also...the weight vs height thing is a good analogy because men seem to dislike very fat women like women dislike short men. So we can sort of gauge the shallowness of our respective genders by seeing how many men are willing to date fat women compared with how many women are willing to date shorter men.


 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 357 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:41:32 PM
^^^^ - Yep, but there are attractive women who have profiles that state "black men only". Do white guys get bent out of shape about that? Or how about "must be Catholic"?


Yeah, but there is a difference in magnitude which you are ignoring. The prejudice against short men is more pure than the prejudice against races and religions. When I say "pure", I don't mean "worse". I mean that our society doesn't regard height prejudice as a serious topic or anything to work at avoiding, but it regards racial and religious prejudice as serious and deep. And because height prejudices is a purer prejudice (unaffected by political correctness), more women use it than women have race requirements or religious requirement.

In other words, being Catholic would probably result in an automatic rejection from 30% of women in a given dating site. Being black may result in an automatic rejection from 25% of women in a given dating site. But being 5'4" may result in an automatic rejection from 98% of women in a given dating site.

It's a matter of magnitude. The black guy and the Catholic guy have nothing to complain about.


But it's NOT "unfair". Unfairness is when something is owed to you, and it is not given (or taken away when not deserving). When it comes to womens' (or guys') tastes, there is nothing owed. They don't owe you squat. It's a taste issue.


I especially agree with this. But the sword cuts both ways. If you take this opinion, you must also agree that it would be O.K. for a man to lie about his height in order to get a date. Again, that wouldn't be "unfair" because women are not owed a date with a tall man. So if a man says he is tall and shows up to the date as a short man, a woman shouldn't go around whining about it...right?


I don't think a shorter guy, who's been turned down too many times would be crying foul if a 400lb woman claimed she needed a guy to be 5'10+, 200lbs+.


Another good point...except for the glaring fact that being fat is more of a lifestyle while being short is uncontrollable. A better analogy is your original one...race and height...not weight and height.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 356 (view)
 
SHORT GUYS
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:26:31 PM
O.k. this is a good question because I've recently had a problem with this. I'm 5'7" and I met a guy on here and went out with him and he was also 5'7" . He was too small for me. I mean he was little, his arms were almost midget like, and I think sometimes men like this have the "Napolean Syndrome". He was in shape and had muscles but they were little. I want a man to look and feel like a man to me. Not like a boy. No offense to you Donnie but some guys do try to over compinsate, by being little Hitlers. It is so unattractive.


Disgusting.

Most women who cling to the Napoleon complex myth do so to make themselves look less shallow for having a height requirement (i.e., - it's not about the height, it's about the attitude that I attribute to all men under the height that I refuse to date). But this post is so nasty that I'm confused as to your motive. This is beyond shallow and I'd love to hear anyone defend this post.


 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 145 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:05:03 PM

"I encourage you to go to the mall one weekend and look around at the couples. Tell me how many overweight women you see in relationships and then tell me how many couples you see that the man is shorter. I think we will find here that women are more superficial. You will find more men today looking beyond the physical."


This arguement holds no water men on average are bigger then women.

no offense chuck, but your posts are starting to become whiney even for my tastes.


Well, I got what Chucky was trying to say.

Plus, if men are usually bigger than women, then we shouldn't see so many couples where the woman is fatter than the male?...correct?

So, because men are usually (on average) bigger than woman, you could go to a mall and see how many men are with fatter women versus women with shorter men. I think you'll find that women are more shallow when it comes to body shape/size.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 144 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:02:16 PM

I would say that after reading and participating in so many short guy threads in the three years I have been on here that short guys have a great deal of anger and inferiority issues. Then again that's just my opinion based on what I have seen and experienced. See what I mean? These studies are based on nothing more then the observations , opinions and speculations by the people doing the study. There are no undeniable scientific facts that say napoleon complex does not exist and there are also none that can claim that it does exist. It's all speculation and opinions.


This sort of logic only flies with disfavored groups who have yet to "unify". This sort of thing (imputing behavior to people who have a trait that people don't like) was done do gay people too, until there was a gay rights movement and they unified. I guess, until short guys decide to fight the prejudice, this type of faulty logic will continue to stick.

The idea is that short guys are discriminated against and so they are angry at the world. And this anger causes them to treat others badly. And treating others badly is what justifies the discrimination. Do you see how absurd that is?

Chucky is right. There have been multiple studies (done at Universities) about this subject. The "Napoleon Complex" is a social myth, not a psychological occurrence. I've met lot's of aggressive tall men, but I've never heard anyone say that they are "compensating" for something or that they had an "inferiority complex". Why do you assume that a short guy thinks of himself as inferior, simply because you or others do?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 104 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/15/2008 1:51:34 PM

It's not that I'm insecure about my height. It's just hard to feel feminine when I'm towering over the guy.


But isn't that the definition of insecurity? Wouldn't a self-assured/confident woman feel feminine by the fact that she is a woman. Height doesn't come into it at all. I don't feel "less masculine" because there is a tall woman nearby.

Just my opinion.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 95 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/14/2008 8:46:58 PM

Short guys are always watching their back and their girl at all times, questioning her every move. Who would want to live with that insecurity?


Stereotype much?

From what I've seen, there are many types of guys. Some guys are controlling, other guys are relaxed...some guys are aggressive, and other guys are laid back. It usually has nothing to do with height. It's just that a relaxed short guy is thought of as nebbish while a relaxed tall guy is thought of as confident. Likewise, an aggressive short guy is thought to have a Napoleon Complex while an aggressive tall guy is thought to be an Alpha Male.

It sounds like you've fallen for the stereotype myths too. What do you have against short dudes?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 89 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/14/2008 3:02:04 PM

I see successful short men in real life with no problem finding girlfriends. It's the unsuccessful short and tall men that complain about not getting dates. A short guy suddenly being tall would find out fast that height wasn't the only thing holding him back with the ladies.


A comforting thought...but research points otherwise. I haven't seen a single crumb of empirical or even anecdotal evidence which suggest what you say is true. It's true that "successful" (read: rich) short men can do just as well as tall men, but this takes a LOT of money. An article in the science section of the New York Times claimed that a 5'6" man would have to make $300,000 more PER YEAR than a 6'0" man to expect the same amount of attention from women.

You might be right that a short guy who suddenly became tall would find out that he has other handicaps...but being short (as far as most women is concerned) is enough.

Plus, plenty of unsuccessful tall men get tons of women. Any guy can see that.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 81 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/13/2008 11:23:26 PM

Oh, yeah, that reminds me. I don't reject women because they are ugly. No. That would be shallow. One can't be shallow. Or admit to it. No, I reject them on account of their attitude, which is whatever I say it is. Convenient, no?


LOL,

Yeah...It's pretty progressive of her to reject short men because of their sour attitudes, instead of their height.

Check out message number 47.

This is another version of the "height paradox" that I was trying to explain in that post. Here is the post:


5) The height paradox.
-Being a short man causes automatic rejection from the vast majority of woman. Lying about ones height causes automatic rejection from many women, but it also gives them an easy excuse for the rejection (it's the lie and not the height). This sort of paradox would upset any red blooded guy.
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 74 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/13/2008 3:46:25 PM
Such hypocrites.


^^^^^

Why would this make women hypocrites? Wouldn't this make them consistent? Women are apparently looking to height for the same thing that money can give them. A rich man gives her much more "protection" than a tall man. If women are seeking "protection", "power", "status", and other things that male height apparently represents in our society, then it only makes sense that money can be substituted for height because money also brings protection, power, and status. In fact, money brings REAL protection, power, and status while male height is merely symbolic.

In fact, I'd say that a woman with a money requirement is LESS shallow than a woman with a height requirement. Such women are seeking the same underlying shallow feelings...but at least men can earn money through their behavior...height is something that is set and cannot be acquired.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 69 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/13/2008 1:21:57 PM

That's because at 5'7 you are really not in the short guy range. Most women are actually shorter then you are . I believe the average woman is only around 5'4. While you are "shorter" in comparison to someone 6'4 ,your height is about average for a man.


No. He's short. Average male height in the United States is somewhere between 5'8" and 5'10". Women don't seem to be looking for guys who are merely taller than the average woman. If that were the case, this would be a complete non-issue.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 68 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/13/2008 1:20:12 PM

How short are we talking about? I like men who are say 5ft 8 to about 6ft but no taller. Otherwise it's too hard for me to kiss them........


Your profile says you are 5'3".

It's too hard for you to kiss someone who was 5'6"? Or even 5'4"? Seems like it would be easier to me.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 59 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/12/2008 10:29:26 AM
As for the sperm bank comment someone made (about women opting for taller men sperm)...I hate to say it, I would opt for taller guy sperm if I were shopping around for that...and, they say smarter guys have better sperm - so a tall, smart guy's sperm...sorry, just my preference.


Which makes male height a social issue. Not so much an issue about personal attraction.

And I think that's the real reason why these threads get deleted. When the old "just my personal opinion" concept breaks down and the women with height requirements start to feel guilty because they are (perhaps) contributing to social intolerance. . . *pooof* . . .the thread disappears.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 58 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/12/2008 10:26:42 AM


^^^^^^ Strangely.....I never thought myself as short.....your're the first person since grade school that has commented on my height.

All through my adult life.....nobody has remarked on my height before.

It doesn't bother me anyway...


But the existence of height bigotry has nothing to do with whether or not your height bothers you or whether you think of yourself as short.

A short man could think of himself as tall, but he would still be affected by height bigotry because heightism is perpetrated by society and individuals against short people (men especially). In fact, I suspect that proud short men (men who are proud to be short) would be affected most by height bigotry than men who are ashamed of being short.

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 49 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:25:57 PM
^^^^

Woah, woah, woah.

Wait a second.

This statistic says something very different to me. It's not saying that it's a reproduction thing...it says that it's a deep rooted social thing more than an attraction thing. If this was really about attraction, then the height of an anonymous sperm doner wouldn't matter.

However, this is about social discrimination. Otherwise, why would women demand sperm from tall men? They demand it because they want to reduce the odds of their male offspring from being short and being exposed to the height bigotry.

That (to me) makes more sense than the idea that women are selecting sperm based on whether the men (whom they will never met) will be "better protectors" for them. What does the "protection level" of a man whom you'll never meet even matter?
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 47 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:14:30 PM

Being only 4ft.11,most people i meet are taller then me..However i would rather date someone average height..5.10 upwards..My experience has taught me most short men have issues regarding their height...


You've dated most short men?

Also, how do you know whether these men had issued regarding their height or whether they had issues regarding height bigotry? How do you know it wasn't people like you (i.e., judging them based on their height) which caused them to react in a certain way?


they seem to fire up alot quicker lol.


"lol"?


 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 46 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/11/2008 9:09:00 PM

Anyone could say that your preferences/requirements (and yes you do have them) are shallow as well.


Bottom line is that if anyone for anyone reason is not attracted to us I see no reason to pout like a small child and say "you big meanie" and stomp off. People will not date each other for all sorts of reasons all the time and if something is just not attractive to another person ,I see no reason they should force themselves to be with someone who doesn't float their boat. Many people would like to deny all together the importance of attraction in a relationship, but it is very important , and that is the truth and always will be.


I'll take a shot at this one. I think height requirements are much more offensive to men than the many other reasons they might get rejected. For a short guy, I'd suspect that being rejecting because of their height would be more offensive than being rejected for other things that they also have no control over. Here is why (in no particular order).

1) It's more systemic than individual.
-The female preference for male height seems to be pretty universal, though it varies in intensity throughout various cultures. That is, French women and American women both tend to prefer taller men over shorter men...but its possible that French women would only choose a taller man if other things were equal while American women would rather make no choice than to choose a short man. Therefore, we are not really talking about individual choices, but rather the degree to which a person confirms to a social norm (in this case, height bigotry or height stigma or heightism).

2) It challenges the feminist ideal of our modern society which most of us have grown to accept.
-Our modern social ideal says that men and women are equal. It says that men have no right to wield power over women simply because of their gender. However, the idea that a man needs to be taller than his woman...or simply the idea that a larger male is somehow intrinsically better than a smaller male in the eyes of women seems archaic to the point of vulgarity. It reminds us that we are all animals, evolved from apes, but where does that leave a proud short man? I cannot fault them for being offended.

3) It is often based in height bigotry.
-Your post assumes that women are rejecting short men because they cannot be attracted to a short man (even if that short man is taller than them). However, this is not normally the case. In many instances, women seem to reject short man based on stereotypes, peer pressure, and social stigma. If you read any thread about short men, you will see dozens of women say that they don't date short men because short men are rumored to act a certain way (stereotyping). Or they say that they dated a short man who was a bad person and so therefore all short men are bad people (however, they never stop dating tall men because they dated a tall man who was a bad person). Or (like one of the posters above), they say that the men in their family or tall or their girlfriends or short and so they want to distinguish their boyfriend from these other male or female individuals in their life (peer pressure). But the most used excuse that women use for automatically rejecting short men has to do with avoiding social stigma. This is said in a lot of ways, but essentially...it comes down to avoiding social embarrassment from dating a man whom society regards as inferior.

4) Height is completely immutable.
-This is an easy one. Height is something that is pretty much determined at birth. It cannot be changed and so short men who are stigmatized by society have a legitimate grievance.

5) The height paradox.
-Being a short man causes automatic rejection from the vast majority of woman. Lying about ones height causes automatic rejection from many women, but it also gives them an easy excuse for the rejection (it's the lie and not the height). This sort of paradox would upset any red blooded guy.
 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Short Men
Posted: 12/11/2008 6:42:08 AM
^^^^^

Why do you keep coming to these threads and reading them if you just want to attack its content? If you're not interested in the topic...why not just move on without comment?

 Jonathan Doeman
Joined: 5/18/2007
Msg: 77 (view)
 
short men, tall women
Posted: 11/13/2008 7:25:10 PM

As many people here believe and I agree, it's not right to start out anything with a lie - and no better way to prove it than stick with that no matter what. It's akin to doing the right thing even when no one notices or cares. I mean, if there's one woman out there looking for the real me, I'm not going to blow it by lying about anything but especially something I truly believe shouldn't be a deal breaker in the first place.


This is profoundly illogical, but I can't fault you for your personal beliefs. The truth is that no one is looking for "the true you". We all judge others by their outward appearances before we even get to know someone's inner beauty. And unfortunately, fat women are at a disadvantage in this endeavor and short men are at an extreme disadvantage.

You simply have to make a personal decision about which is worse: height bigotry or lying. If lying is worse than height bigotry (the idea that shorter people have less social value than taller people), then you should tell the truth about your height and increase your risk of dying alone. If height bigotry is worse than lying, then you should lie about your height and get more chances at finding a woman. Yes, some women will reject you upon discovering the truth, but those are height bigots and you wouldn't want to get involved with those types of women anyway. At least with the lie....you give yourself a fighting chance.

 
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