Belle_lass, Children aren't born with preconceived notions of masculinity and femininity, that's something they learn through conformity

What men are simply, simply, very simply asking is why do SOME women think that a woman's role is to be passive in dating. when other women don't.

But you did ask to "understand" why some men have issues with how SOME women try and put themselves in a "special" class distinction.

Just because someone respects me, doesn't in any way make me feel obligated to respect them back, when they haven't earned my respect.

I guess you think I really "care" to change anyone's mind? I don't.

I'm not yelling

That's bull. I have a ton of "women" friends on the forums. You might be shocked at how well we get along.

treat women, no better or no worse than I would a man. Period. I'm not sexist

Outside of the forums, I would never have this much dialogue debating a(or any fundamental) topic I don't align with, with someone I was initially intrested in. I'd write them off quicker than a bad debt.

I'm not looking to meet "halfway" between how an "individual" does things, and who I am fundamentally, in a romatic relationship. I don't compromise myself that way. I'm good with who I am, and only hang with people that align with me.
I don't attempt to meet them "halfway".

It's not all about what "women" want....

Stop putting yourselves on a pedestal. Stop with the female chauvinism. Stop with the sexist double standards,

It's not all about what "women" want....

I mean "legitimately" handicapped, not emotionally handicapped, or from arrested development.

I don't care to entertain ANY feelings of why anyone would FEEL that it's required of me to behave in a way THEY are exempt from.

So very tired of the stereotyping done on here.

In the same way, if you want to know what to do in order to prove
equality, then what you want to know, you want to know for the wrong
reasons. As such, I give no specifics.

Also, it has come to my attention that women's image of men, is
that of an enemy. In other words, women, as a whole, treat men, as whole,
as their enemy - full of mistrust and always on guard against a possible
invasion on vagina-ville.

The answer is, "No". You seem to think that "same" means "equal".

If a man is a player, and he lies to a woman to get her in bed,
that's okay? After all isn't he conducing his life as he sees fit? If so,
then why are some women complaining about the behavior of players?

LOL! It's clear how women feel about asking men out. I can
summarize it too. I goes like this: "Are you drunk? No freaking way!".

How a woman initiates plays a large role in how a man will see her.
Most women play the "sex card" when they want to get a man... which is
probably why many men seem them as "whores". He knows that she can attract
him with her personality or natural beauty (for example) but she chooses
sex instead, so by comparison he labels her a whore - though whore here is
not quite the right word.

..and I approached him...to my surprise he was fascinated and
flattered that I would approach him

Now we're getting to the nitty gritty. Women have been screaming for equality for, forever. Now - exactly how much equality do you really want? If you want it all, you're going to have to get used to rejection just like the guys.

my god are u serious

I don't know where you are getting hate out of that post... but I never said I hated anyone or group. Nor did I say Savona was a hater.

But I DID say she was casually putting down men in a way that perpetuates a common double-standard today

I know Zangie can cook a mean lasagna......

Wheat pasta, please.......

You took a light-hearted joke about men who can't cook, always Eating Out... where Verity was speaking metaphorically... and you used that as an excuse to casually put down men in general who don't have that skill.

Now you can have all the ladies in the other thread explain to me again how effective it is to communicate with gestures and innuendo....

Then I'll clarify what you seem to ignore and overlook, some people don't care for ambiguity. People who play games come across as childish, boorish and IME have emotional issues that surface later on. It never fails that when I get to know people who are always "kidding around" and trying to make everything "fun", don't have their act together.

That's your subjective opinion. Don't state it as an absolute. And repeating your subjective opinion as a justification does nothing but make it become like a drone.

The part that you don't seem to get is that I find flirting with someone I'm getting to know, as childish, evasive, and completely non stimulating.

That's a strawman. You're being obtuse. This isn't about a "guarantee".
There are no guarantees in life.
If you want to go playing "hunches", be my guest.
I prefer taking an "educated guess".

Factor in an obscure method of communicating, in lieu of words, there's no way to correlate that with whether or not actions line up. And you call that fun? Have at it.

You don't need laughter to be sexually aroused. You're speaking in absolutes, again.

And what are you talking about when you say "men who allow women..."?
Allow women? WTF?

I like to know that I'm not wasting my time, when it could be better spent elsewhere.

Love is not an adventure for me, it's an experience. And I don't want to venture into it blindly, again. I don't like the consequences attached to getting involved with people who I'm unsure of.

Bvllshit.
Do you think thought processes are hard wired to genitalia?
How many women have you been sexually intimate with and had them confess their feelings to you at their most vulnerable moments?
I'm going to assume none.
Then don't speak as if you're an expert on anyone's opinion but your own on the topic of what women "feel", and that men are in a vacuum on the topic of the female psyche.

Unless that is, you want to be taken seriously.

Bvllshit.
It's foolish to make the statement that you just did.

I see that looking at people as individuals in virtually impossible for you. Which makes conversations with you, virtually impossible, because in order to make a dent with you, we have to convince you that people are individuals first.

Wah wah....
Then stop reading the forums. The truth is obviously something you'd want to remain in the dark about, because you somehow feel included in the "gender". Again, because you don't see yourself as an individual.
I read all the time how men are pigs, with a one track mind, and only want casual sex and blah, blah, blah...I simply point out that I'm not like that, and that all men are not like that. I don't feel included in the group, nor do I deny the existence of such men.

What others are attracted to isn't going to change either. So, your point is moot.
Why the pervasive need to keep repeating that you'll not change what "works for you". It's the underlying theme to all of your posts.

Do you really feel that men have that little respect for women?

'm very open, in order to find the right girl.
The number one thing I look for, is physical attraction. Period.
The second is chemistry.

And you can spare me the "once we get to a certain stage" , and "it will be amazing when we finally do get to connect"

And the women who don't seem to get the logic that sexual men looking for a serious relationship are looking for a sexual woman on top of all the other compatiblity issues ...

tend to be BBWs.

That's obvious given the use of an ambiguous style of communicating. Why point out the obvious as if it was overlooked?

If you're being ambiguous, and he's being ambiguous, then you're both "playing".
I don't know how you'll actually get to "know" anything for certain.
And people will then complain about being disappointed when they get to know the "real" them

For all the women advocating flirting, it's ironic that so many women will start threads asking "What do you think it means when...."

Personally, if I fail to get a date or relationship with a certain woman, I want to walk away with the knowledge that I didn't leave anything to chance. Then I can put her out of my mind, and move on.

Then by your own admission, the direct approach is not the one for you, as you feel uncomfortable about it, and it yields you undesirable men.

can't relate to this at all. I don't like being in the dark about anything if I can help it.

I found that by talking with my girlfriend I was able to understand her well. She agreed that I did. Now I know she lied. Damn.

I never have sex and regret it after. ever.

do you honestly think that the assorted pallete of hair flicks smiles and glances actually makes for clear communication?

Do you feel shame when having sex? Do you feel like your a bad person for doing it? That is the question... Answer it honestly... I know damn well alot of you feel shamed when you have sex....

But I am a little annoyed at the fact that some women make themselves seem like they are they exception and all other women on here are sluts.

Farceur, you're my hero :)

It's not just the fact that many to most women expect men to come to them. As for this site for example, a man's email and profile has to be extra interesting than most average men to pick up the average woman. While these women are not capable of making themselves at the same level of interest. They just think being simply a woman is all they have to do while a man has to bend over backwards and be some one extra interesting or some one more interesting than the woman.

Your question is vague. Can you elaborate?

If we can establish "human equality", as the founding fathers did in the The Constitution of the United States, "gender equality" ought to a breeze in comparison.

Where do you draw the line between what would be true, entirely equal behavior?

Identifying the major reason(s) for it, might be a helpful start.

This is a topic for another thread as it is off topic, unless you think women don't ask men out because on some basic level, women resent men.

What!?!

News to us. We had no idea that we hated sex.

I'll bring the strawberries, peaches, whipped cream, Dream Whip (for Savona), and the chilled Reisling for dessert.....

Which leaves you 2 options.
1- B*tch about it.
2- Do something about it.

You may have chosen what your ideal man is, but have you honestly given thought to what this type of man's preferences would be? And whether you are the type of women "he" is seeking?

It's seems that you spend all your time thinking about your wants, needs, and desires, and don't give much consideration to the types of men you desire, and what their requirements in a mate might be.

I fail to see how the inability to think objectively is a gift, instead of a shortcoming.

I wouldn't give you an inch on that.
That's simply denial.

Men and women who treat each other equaly and fairly, as individuals, and not genders, understand equality.

Regardless of what you "feel", and what romantic notions you may have and hold dear, the fact remains that there are many women to choose from who have fully embraced the expectations of what equality is between genders. And whether the percentage of them is low or high, some men (yours truly) will want them, and ignore those who don't subscribe to equality, no matter how compelling their pleas are for their old fashioned preferences.

You keep banging that same drum. You can like whatever you want.
I doesn't mean that anybody else has to like it, or agree with it, accept it, or not have a negative view or opinion of it.

Why the need for sympathy?

Or go live somewhere in the deep south where they haven't progressed, and find a "gentleman" who will treat you like the "good 'ole days".

But now on top of that you want a man who's a "daddy"..

You seem to be doing just fine having an equal education, equal opportunity job, paying your own bills, having your own car, your total freedom, rights and liberties etc....

I avoid women who predominantly think and act "emotionally", like the plague.
And if you want to use the defense that women who don't, aren't as feminine, you'd be dead wrong.

That's got nothing to do with being fair.
Oh, and in case you haven't noticed....life ain't about being fair. Never was, never will be.

But the bottom line remains, anyway you slice it.....if you remain passive, you lower your odds of success. Period.

All you've done is make a plea for your feelings to be justified. Nobody has dictated that you do what it is you cannot do.

r she is one who "is trying HARD to meet guys in the middle because she sees it genuinely matters to guys to do that",

ou seem to like to bait me (yes, we have a history). Thanks for the compliment.

Because you seem to want to make it personal, I will respond accordingly.

All you ever say is, "Not me!

Boring? Offensive? Tiresome?

Here's what I find offensive...DOUBLE STANDARDS. Oh I know that they will continue to be applied to women,that women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I know that attitude isn't going away any time soon. But I can certainly find it offensive, and I can certainly point it out when, in my perception, a double standard is being applied against EITHER gender

What traditionally female role have men not stepped into, nowadays? Conversely, why are there still traditionally male roles that women have refused to step into, nowadays? That's a double standard! Yep, that's a generalization, but I hope you get the point.

I MO, it would behoove (sp?) a lot of women to attempt to understand what men are saying in this thread, but it's not required. Every individual has the right to do what is best fro them, male or female.

've been through "couples counsuling." It was all about stating what you want and need, not about what you wished the other picked-up on (i.e. body language).

To state it more bluntly, I do not accept feelings as a form of an argument. No matter how good something feels, you cannot convenience me that just because it feels good, to you, or anyone else, it's just. And likewise, you cannot convince me that just because something feels bad, it's unjust.

One of the problems with their arguments is that they do not stand the test of time. If ten minutes later she "feels" differently about the whole thing, how much validity or truth can such arguments have?

I rather not make this personal so I won't answer the first part of your question

Can you see how "Do unto others as you wish other do unto yourself" gives rise to certain behaviors and duties for the person who believes it?

can insist that you are not behaving according to "equality" which you claim you subscribe to (again, hypothetically speaking for I do not know if you do or you don't)

as it is evidently causing a lot of fiction among men and women.

To say, "Hey, I didn't ask for it, so my hands are clean", is nothing but an attempt to ignore the whole thing.

I'm not sure why you feel anything said in the forms dictates how you live your life.

My posts generally point out the hypocrisy by proposing women do what they want men to do - it's just the golden rule.

I'm mostly afraid of tangling with verityone or abelian- hence the disclaimer.

the bottom line is: instead of discarding people for not getting your hints, try to adapt your methods for something more direct; as most "serious" guys in 2009 do not play that game of hints; for various reasons.

well, unless you want to hunt in the pool where the majority of the players are...but do not cry after that you have been played!m

However, I would hope that there is at least some willingness to
see the other side of the issue. When a poster above dismissively says that
she just wants to do what is easy, can you not see how a guy might get a
little peeved at that?

The average woman need not insist. She only has to "prefer" a certain behavior. If a guy doesn't match the "preferred behavior" she
desires, all she has to do is casually hint of the five other guys
interested in her. And since the poor guy was lucky to even get a date, for
he probably sent hundreds of email without receiving a reply, he is kind of
in a desperate position, and will do what she "prefers", supposedly out of
his own will, but yet for reasons not much different than when a hungry dog
does tricks for food.

Feelings have their place - bonding with people for example.
However, if you want to convince me of something, subjective feelings about
the matter won't do. I accept reason as the authority in such matters.

t's women who want(ed) equality. And since equality gives rise to
duty, all men are saying, or at least what I'm saying is:
Either except the equality and the duties that come with it, or forget
about the equality all together. If you don't want the duty, give up the
equality. You can't have the fire without the heat, and equality and duty
are like fire and heat - and that's fairly easy to show.

Men being "dogs", as per most women, are expected to change their
nature and be faithful. Men are expected to change - to do the very thing
you don't want to.

a lot of the time, our different natures do not allow for equality
simply because one of the genders cannot live up to the duty that follow
from that equality- at least that's the case with the equality we are
trying to establish.

Men didn't ask for this

The distribution of quantity is different on each side, but the
quantity is the same.This difference can be important: like when you have a
2 dollar bill, but you need 2 loonies for the car wash... noting here that
1+1=2. At other times, the difference is irrelevant - like when you buy a
coffee at Tim Horton's - 2 loonies or a single 2 dollar bill is just as
good.

Maybe I'm just kind of a free spirit because it's possible for me
now, and would have been very content to be a housewife, if liberation had
never happened and I never had any other options. Eh, who am I kidding? I
would have become a pirate!

Then, maybe you'll appreciate the fact that some men, like myself,
would immediately place you in a higher category than other women, simply
by the virtue of your character in comparison to another woman, all other
things being equal.

I am though, always kind of amazed at how defensive some women get in response to general observations about male frustration with the whole process of meeting women.

As far as SOME guys labeling women who do the pursuing...who cares, would you really want to be with them anyhow?

And "rejection", once again who cares?

Or does not have the maturity to talk with/deal with sex in a non-sexual, factual, adult manner...